From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Sep 18 18:12:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA08293 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 18:12:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id RAA14171 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 17:46:17 -0500 Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 17:46:17 -0500 Message-Id: <199709182246.RAA14171@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #347 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, September 18 1997 Volume 01 : Number 347 In this digest: Re: IN> Mundane soul-trading IN> The Marches: A review Re: IN> About the four horsemen of the Apocalypse... Re: IN> About the four horsemen of the Apocalypse... IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #346 IN> Archangel Vapula Re: IN> About the four horsemen of the Apocalypse... Re: IN> Archangel Vapula IN> cycle problems. IN> Re: Web weavin'... Re: IN> The Marches: A review Superior Pairings (Re: IN> About the four horsemen) Re: IN> Archangel Vapula Re: Geas Entrapment (Re: IN> Lilith's Potence) Re: IN> Mundane soul-trading Re: IN> Malakim and the Pearcy Gospel Re: Geas Entrapment (Re: IN> Lilith's Potence) Re: IN> Archangel Vapula Re: IN> The Marches: A review IN> Malakim Re: IN> Archangel Vapula Re: Geas Entrapment (Re: IN> Lilith's Potence) IN> In Nomine Canon IN> Malakim and the Pearcy Gospel Re: IN> The Marches: A review IN> InNomFAQ List Updates Re: IN> Counter-spamming: Existence proof of it working Re: IN>The four cherubim ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 10:49:55 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Mundane soul-trading I once heard of soul-trading being used for software protection. The license said that, if you made illegal copies, the writers of the software acquired the right to sell your soul to any suitable hellish fiend that presented itself. The software writers said it seemed to be remarkably effective. Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 11:38:38 -0400 From: johnk@ascc01.ascc.lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) Subject: IN> The Marches: A review First, the boring stuff... Title: The Marches Authors: Sam Chupp, David Edelstein, Steve Kenson, S. John Ross, John Tynes Authorettes: Scott Haring, Ross Winn, Derek Pearcy, Steve Jackson Editor: Scott Haring (Mike Sullivan as well...) Cover art: Rogerio Vilela Interior: Ray Snyder, Ramon Perez, Heather Bruton, Dan Smith, Carol Scavella Size: 128 pages SRP: $17.95 (american) The most dramatic thing that struck me when I first flipped through it was the number of different artists. Mind you, I _like_ Dan's stuff, but it was entertaining to see other styles as well (check out Gabriel... yum!). Ray Snyder's stuff was particularly evocative, though sometimes hard to comprehend (there's a point where style _does_ overcome form!) Vilela's cover was beautiful and, judging by the ad for _Heaven and Hell_, they just keep getting better. The format should be familiar to those who own In Nomine or Night Music. Due to the sheer amount of stuff to be presented, the adventure seeds in the back are much shorter than what was presented with the Austin stuff in Night Music. On the angelic side, Blandine and Gabriel get expanded writeups; plus a new minor choir for Blandine, the Menuim. A note in the text says that there are several minor band/choirs out there, usually associated with only a single Superior... though they might be lent out. The Menuim look most useful as NPCs, though a player could make one as a challenge for their role-playing abilities. The look into Gabriel's insanity was particularly illuminating. Down below, we get a deeper look at, who else, Beleth and Belial (and a new minor band for Beleth, the Pachadim). One flaw I found in Belial was his new Attunement, Blackdraft. I don't _ever_ imagine him giving an Attunement to douse flames... even for a short while! But I guess his essential paranoia about being 'burned' by his own schemes would allow it. As usual, in addition to more history, with each Superior you get an expanded personality writeup, their goals, their relationship with servitors, a tether, more detailed politics, servitor attunements and a few new servitors. I especially like how they compare/contrasted the opposed superiors. Blandine and Beleth fight over the Marches in almost constant conflict, while Gabriel and Belial are warping each other in subtle, and not-so-subtle, ways because they share a Word. Next comes an extensive writeup on Sorcerers. The gist is that Sorcerers develop special skills to pierce the Cacophony (which is how they perceive the Symphony through their limited understanding). This lets them summon and control spirits and proto-demons... and allows them to get into trouble with the real demons as well! In order to learn these skills the Sorcery Attunement must be acquired (plus having 6 Forces and at least a 6 Will). For general fun, they can also learn the Focus skill which allows them to do Essence tricks and make Wards. Most Sorcerers are pretty solidly damned to Hell. The infernal bargains they make--both to gain Sorcery and during its practice--almost always will serve Hell in the long run. They do mention that some strong-willed Sorcerers managed to walk the fine line between power and damnation and still do good with their powers. These types are very rare, though! A new type of infernal critter, the Demonlings, are provided for summoning (plus a few random charts to make the Sorcerers life more interesting!) The following section was the most fun for me; the Marches. You get a _lot_ of history into the Marches, Uriel's Purification War, and the Marches today. Plus there are rules for working with Dreamscapes, lucid dreamers (people able to control their dreams) and dreamshaping. Some more detail is given to the Vale (where Blandine and Beleth rule) and the Far Marches. There's a decent general writeup of how 'gods' operate and some pantheons, but little practical detail. I sense... many Pyramid articles and possibly another book in the future... ;) The biggest surviving pantheons are the Aesir (Norse), the Faerie, the Olympians, the Aztecs, a conglomerate of Native American myths, Australian mythos, the Heliopolitans (egyptian), the August Prosperity Collective (japanese) and the Loas (african). Just to liven things up, there's a lot of neutral Primal Spirits that can be summoned/wheedled. Just for fun, it is apparently VERY easy for ethereals that have bought vessels to enter the corporeal. They usually avoid doing so for fear of dying messily but, of course, they do anyways. To round out the book, there's a writeup of two mobile tethers... one infernal, one divine. I don't want to give anything away, but either would be useful as a one-shot adventure or as a continuing campaign element. (Only 13 pages... but well used!) The author gives PC-advocates a tweak as well. }=) (Oh, tucked into the back, there's a new Song and a new Discord especially useful for campaigns that touch on the Ethereal...) Problems There are no major problems with the book except that some _intriguing_ sections could have been fleshed out a lot more. Hell, you could do a whole book just on Sorcerers or any of the major pantheons in the Marches! There's enough detail for ambitious GMs to make up entire campaigns based around the Marches... Bottom Line - ----------- A very solid supplement... especially for those who didn't like Night Music for the large portion of it given over to 'GM-only' stuff like a city and a big adventure. The artwork fluctuates in quality from workmanlike to very nice (I hope to see more of Perez's stuff!). Some parts are must-haves for GMs (Superior writeups, the Marches) and other stuff will be of great interest to both GMs and players (Sorcery especially). Combined with the Soldier rules in Night Music, you could have a very rich campaign based around humans. On a 1-5 scale (which may be different than what I used last time... mea culpa), I'd give it 4.5 overall with a 4 for frustration (arghh! What's Loki up to?) ;) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 12:00:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Thomas Davidson Subject: Re: IN> About the four horsemen of the Apocalypse... On Wed, 17 Sep 1997, Dennis C Hwang wrote: > On Fri, 12 Sep 1997, Thomas Davidson wrote: > > > On Thu, 11 Sep 1997, Dennis C Hwang wrote: > > > > > Yeah...although, now that I think about it, it seems to me that Saminga as > > > the sole representative of Death in the IN universe is a little lopsided. > > > After all, Death shouldn't always fall into the demonic realm. > > > > > > Anyone interested in a writeup for Archangel Azrael? > > > (Appears as a perky young black-clad Goth girl? :) > > > > > > > Well, actually, I think the Endless would be neither Angels nor Demons. > > Something in between, not caring about the War or its consequences. > > > > This is supported by the comics. Dream often found himself caught between > > Angels and Demons, such as in "The Season of the Mist". In that story > > Angels, Demons, and several pantheons were fighting over the Key to the > > Gate of Hell. > > > > Although, the roles of Michael (Destruction), Yves (Destiny), > > Beleth/Blandine (Dream) blur somewhat. > > Well, yeah, I was just being silly (me? never!). I'd probably go with > the classical description of Azrael if I were to write him up. > That points up an interesting question: What *is* the classical description of Azrael? I don't have my Book of Angels or whatever handy. Another thing that's lopsided in the IN Universe: Andrealphus is Lust... but there is no AA of Love (or anything similar)? Isn't that a little cynical? I know I've seen write-ups (on ArchBeth's INC page, no less), but nothing official. I'm beginning to think that there are a lot of DP's that have no AA equivalent that should. Maybe there's a reason for that, but I doubt it. Thomas Davidson tdavidso@suffolk.lib.ny.us MUSIC: Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, Rolling Stones, Rush, Jimi Hendrix GAMES: Champions (old and new), In Nomine, Nephilim TV: The X-Files, the Simpsons, Superman, The Tick, the Animaniacs OTHER: Religion, Philosophy, mysticism, the runes, the Tarot, writing. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 12:46:04 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> About the four horsemen of the Apocalypse... Thomas Davidson wrote: > That points up an interesting question: What *is* the classical > description of Azrael? I don't have my Book of Angels or whatever > handy. The Grim Reaper? Black-robed skeleton with scythe, made familiar to readers of Terry Pratchett? > Another thing that's lopsided in the IN Universe: Andrealphus is > Lust... but there is no AA of Love (or anything similar)? Isn't > that a little cynical? I think the symmetrical position would be an Archangel of Chastity, with two main domains, Celibate and Marital. But to be a little cynical, I doubt that would sell well in '90s America. Someone wrote up a description of Cupid as Archangel of Love a while back. Maybe that would do. Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 11:51:13 -0500 (CDT) From: rogue@ez-net.com (Brent DeHut) Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #346 >> Now think of super-deformed Dominic, with six great big eyes peeping >> adorably out of his cute li'l hood. >> >> [panel 1: SD Dominic and SD Laurence on a cloud, chatting] >> >> [panel 2: An SD angel with several big jagged angry notes of Discord >> hovering over him goes by] >> >> [panel 3: Before SD Laurence's amazed eyes, SD Dom whips out a mallet >> that's twice as big as he is and flattens the Discordant angel, >> knocking a hole in the cloud under him with predictable results] >> >> [panel 4: SD Dom holds up the mallet (we can now see that it has >> 'REJECTED' carved backward in its face) and grins a goofy Seraph >> grin.] VERY FUNNY. THIS MATTER WILL BE BROUGHT TO LAURENCE'S ATTENTION. REJECTED, INDEED. - -DominicNet. Keeping Heaven safe from Heresy. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 12:23:15 EST From: "ROBERT A. COUTURE" Subject: IN> Archangel Vapula Does Vapula regard himself, like his fellow Habbalah, as an angel, or being part of the infernal hierarchy, is he free of this delusion? And if he does see himself as an Archangel, what do his (non-Habbalite) servitors think of him? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:15:44 -0400 From: "Chuck Ryan" Subject: Re: IN> About the four horsemen of the Apocalypse... Earl Wajenberg wrote: > Thomas Davidson wrote: > > > That points up an interesting question: What *is* the classical > > description of Azrael? I don't have my Book of Angels or whatever > > handy. > > The Grim Reaper? Black-robed skeleton with scythe, made familiar to > readers of Terry Pratchett? > Well the Grim Reaper otherwise known as the harvester of soul is a pre-christianconstruct and if present in the IN reality would probably take the form of an ethereal spirit most Kabalistic scholars believe the angle of death was Samuel also charged with the key to the gates of hell and described as beautiful fit blond hair and jet black wings > > Another thing that's lopsided in the IN Universe: Andrealphus is > > Lust... but there is no AA of Love (or anything similar)? Isn't > > that a little cynical? > > I think the symmetrical position would be an Archangel of Chastity, > with two main domains, Celibate and Marital. But to be a little > cynical, I doubt that would sell well in '90s America. Someone > wrote up a description of Cupid as Archangel of Love a while back. > Maybe that would do. > > Earl Wajenberg again as with the Grim Reaper cupid being originally a member of the greek pathos son of athena would ether be an ethereal spirit or a casualty of Uriels war ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:25:12 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Archangel Vapula I believe Vapula's write-up says "think mad scientist," so it wouldn't be impossible that he's just as nuts as all the other Habbalah, and the rest of the Lowerarchy recognizes this, incuding his servitors. I dunno, tho', I tend to see the typical servitor of Vapula as the sort who cowers a lot, often uses the phrase "Yes, master," and answers to a name like "Igor." Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 11:31:12 -0700 From: Steven Feldon Subject: IN> cycle problems. Okay, so I'm anal. If there's canon continuity, I'm going to try to steer my game to match it, either by having some events like "Demon Prince of Rock and Roll" possibly happen offstage instead of starring my players, or other methods. However, the nature of a cycle is eluding me a bit. In Nomine Austin is chock full of good ideas that I'd love to flesh out, but I don't know which ones are seeds for future threads of Revelations and which ones aren't. In the future, is there some way to mark, at least within the GM sections of each book, which threads are going to be developed further in this cycle and which are just seeds? I don't want to have Foo blow up the Bar to destroy the Baz if Revelations IV is titled "Foo Blows Up The Bar." steve ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 11:35:16 -0700 From: "J.D. Frazer" Subject: IN> Re: Web weavin'... >hmmm, why don't you think this through then give me a more detailed >explanation of what you come up with... people love to hierachize. Will do. I'll write up a short document on it. >i dont think people would want to leave their web browsers... haven't seen >webforum, but i can imagine it is some simple threaded discussion engine - - >keith wrote one once, it isn't compilcated. OK. >uhmm, staring at a blank screen and trying to visualize a typeface for both a >futuristic screen display and a futuristic alien intelligence screen >display... it doesnt help that the software i have is pirated, old, and i >don't have a manual, so i'm in the dark as to how it actually works... Yeah, I see what you mean. I was working with Microgamma 016 BT, and was going to just mess with the ligatures and maybe even some of the rounded shapes. But that's easy and mediocre. We don't want anything to be lame. >also, Aureal suggested we could bundle one of their cards - presumably at a >nice price - with our game - something to consider if we want to use 3d sound >(which i think would be awesome)... Hrm. Yes, we do still want to use 3D sounds. I met with Keith yesterday and we briefly discussed the issue. DirectCrap isn't our route of choice for obvious reasons, but Keith said we could support both a native mixer and DirectSound. Yo, coder, am I right? Bundling a card with the game could be a heap of fun. I'll leave you to deal with them on this, until we get to numbers, then I'll drag Barry into it. :-) jd ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:32:42 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> The Marches: A review At 11:38 AM -0400 9/18/97, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: >Ray Snyder's stuff was particularly evocative, though sometimes hard to >comprehend (there's a point where style _does_ overcome form!) Also known as p. 24: "What The Hell Is That?" If anyone knows, please, tell me.... (Syder's stuff was usually okay, but I found that the styles and overall quality of the other artists far overshadowed him. Personal opinion and all...) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:53:04 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Superior Pairings (Re: IN> About the four horsemen) At 12:00 PM -0400 9/18/97, Thomas Davidson wrote: [...] >I'm beginning to think that there are a lot of DP's that have no AA >equivalent that should. Maybe there's a reason for that, but I doubt it. Some have been killed -- Sloth, for instance, or Knowledge. Others may have fallen and acquired new Words. Fear became Nightmares. Some may have Fallen and are stuck as Servitor of [x], Baron of [y]. Maybe there's some poor battered AA of Love captive within Andre's favorite brothel in Shal-Mari, where the Prince of Lust boasts of his Word overspreading the corporeal realm, and tries to corrupt his opposite number. "Thought you could Redeem me with Heavenly Love, didn't you? Come now, abandon such foolish delusions, and drown in sensation with me. Take solace in the flesh and the feeling. Only pleasure absolute will set you free..." Maybe this is the real reason that Eli wanders -- he's looking for lost Love, thought killed, but rumored to be alive and imprisoned... (LE editor hat on? I certainly hope not...) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 15:14:26 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Archangel Vapula At 12:23 PM -0500 9/18/97, ROBERT A. COUTURE wrote: >Does Vapula regard himself, like his fellow Habbalah, >as an angel, or being part of the infernal hierarchy, >is he free of this delusion? I'd think that he believes himself to be an Archangel, or at least a Prince of Heaven (address forwarding is so useful, don'tcha know?). >And if he does see himself as an Archangel, what do his >(non-Habbalite) servitors think of him? "He's crazy, but really inventive. He gives us what we want. And besides, he created many of us." ("Of course I create demons. They're easy. But I make angels as well, same as those wimp-Wordbound who hang around simpering in Heaven, instead of doing real work down here where things *matter*. Of course, *my* angels are *real* angels, not wimps.") - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:37:56 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: Geas Entrapment (Re: IN> Lilith's Potence) At 9:02 AM -0400 9/18/97, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: >> >> Lilim do not trade Geases. Lilith trades Geases. >> >>Also, a "trade" could be "I promise that I won't invoke this Geas save >> >>as you instruct me" (thus putting another Geas/1 on the Lilim). In fact, >> >>that is what most Lilim refer to when they speak of trading Geasa. >> > >> >Sorry, I clearly misunderstood the ruling. I gues we'll see the official >> >canon when the FAQ gets updated next. >> >> KARAKASH? > > Done last night... along with a jillion other updates to the >FAQ! Is-good. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:27:08 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Mundane soul-trading At 1:23 AM -0400 9/18/97, Calabim@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 97-09-18 00:35:10 EDT, you write: > ><< Can plain old normal mortals own each others' souls? Could Joe Blow > A need $100,000 and receive it from Joe Blow B in exchange for a written > agreement transferring ownership of the soul? Obviously, anyone IRL could > easily sign such a document, but in IN, would it have an actual effect (or > is JBB a bit of an infernal optimist)? > >> > >I can't wait to see the official answer, but I would like to make a wild >stab. > >In Nomine indicates a number of things about existance as a damned mortal... >1) Mortals can not be "promoted" to undead. Mortals *can* be promoted to undead -- but you have to start with a live one. p. IN193. Having a dead soul clamoring for another chance... Well, it might be possible to do an infernal equivalent to a Saint, but why would a demon bother? >2) Mortals are promised "positions" in the afterlife but these tend to never >materialize. >3) The existance of a mortal in hell is a demeaned, tortured afterlife. A-yup. >So I doubt that having purchased souls would matter significantly. A mortal >"purchasing agent" would suffer in hell, no different from any other. Some other stuff indicates that demons *cannot* "buy" a mortal's soul. They can make someone Hellsworn, binding the mortal in feelings of obligation, freedom from responsibility, and fear of death for betrayal. But they can't have a "go directly to Hell, do not pass go" contract. The human has to actually do the evil things... which is usually easy enough -- if the human believes he's damned anyway by signing a contract, then he'll wind up Hellside. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:45:37 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Malakim and the Pearcy Gospel At 10:21 AM -0500 9/18/97, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >[...] there is also >a "brightness knob" on IN. If you want to pillory harsh and >judgemental religion, you can paint Dominic as a celestial Stalin >and Malakim as winged Ku Klux Klan. Mercurians are described in >glowing terms in their choir write-up, but the Mercurian we actually >meet, Nicole, plays very hard ball. > >On the other hand, you can turn the brightness knob up, play >Dominic as tough-but-fair, model your Malakim after the Three >Muskateers or James Bond, and have your Mercurians borrow a few >feathers from "Touched by an Angel." Heck, you can even adjust individual brightnes levels -- Dominic could be Stalin, while Mercurians wander around with Big Anime Eyes. Or vice versa -- tough-but-fair, and hard-ball Mercurians. Demons can be monsters, or revolutionaries. (We won't discuss the greenies, we just *won't*.) Or the GM and PCs can rub their hands gleefully and not only adjust the overall brightness, but the individual ranges for every PC and NPC encountered or thought about... (Okay, so that Impudite's a real softy, and this one over here gets grins by doing everything short of killing mortals, and here we've got the loony pyro who we all hope will get yanked up by the scruff by Gaby soon, saying "That's not what I meant, Servitor.") (I love them all. Dark, bright, shades of gray (oh, especially the shades of gray!)... I like a universe where the "Dom's a Bal" theory can show up and while most people go, "Naaaah," there's still that little *wonder* there. I love hearing about the utterly dark versions, which I'd never play in, but who cares? The concepts are cool. The ultra-bright versions are fun too, in their own way.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:20:20 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: Geas Entrapment (Re: IN> Lilith's Potence) At 3:19 AM +0000 9/18/97, Walt Mazur wrote: >On Wed, 17 Sep 1997 19:34:45 -0400, Elizabeth McCoy > wrote: > >>She's a Superior, of *course* she's an exception! Other Superiors might >>be able to do it as well, but I'm not going to say anything about that >>right now. > >Got it. > >>>I see Lilim as right on the edge, as indicated by Lilith's odd placement in >>>IN. She isn't quite a Prince(ss). She has that level of power, but not that >>>level of submission to Lucifer. Somehow she's struck a special deal. >> >> That's one way to see her. There are others. > >Well, IN says clearly she is not a demon. (P. 150, paragraph 1.) Even humans can be as selfish as anything but a Balseraph... >>>What I was trying to say is that you get the most value from Geases as /6. >>>Six Geas/1's can be done in six hours; three Geas/2's, in three days; two >>>Geas/3's, in two weeks; but one Geas/6 takes a year to work off. Also, >>>Geas/6's represent the most odious tasks. >> >> That's quite true, yes. It's still up in the air whether the >>Free Lilim burden is 9 Geas/3s, or 23 (or whatever) Geas/1s. > >Maybe the conversion rules should be changed? Perhaps it takes two Geas/2 >to make a Geas/3, two Geas/3 to make a Geas/4, etc. >>>Somehow I think TPTB aren't going to go for that level of change. >> >>I'm sure not. But you can always do it at home... > >I don't think my players would be too happy about that level of rule >change. Oh, well... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 20:27:29 +0100 (BST) From: maya@tcp.co.uk (GR Cogman) Subject: Re: IN> Archangel Vapula >I believe Vapula's write-up says "think mad scientist," so it >wouldn't be impossible that he's just as nuts as all the other >Habbalah, and the rest of the Lowerarchy recognizes this, >incuding his servitors. I dunno, tho', I tend to see the typical >servitor of Vapula as the sort who cowers a lot, often uses >the phrase "Yes, master," and answers to a name like "Igor." > >Earl Wajenberg - --- Side-note: I see Vapula as a _really_ powerful Habbalite, and thus projecting somewhat unconsciously a lot of the time, and not really caring about it when he realises. His emotions would slop all over the people near him, and other Habbalites in particular, though they'd weaken with distance and lack of exposure. His poor Habbalite servants would probably get it worse than anyone else. Maya - --- Maya, Elohim of Eli in service to Blandine maya@tcp.co.uk - -- "There are those who say that wizards are subject to temptations and addictions beyond the understanding of ordinary men: the addiction to shape-changing, or to meditation under the influence of certain herbs and conditions of the stars; the obsession with knowledge, and the development of power. Yet this is not so. Temptation is temptation, obsession is obsession, and choice is choice." - Isar Chelladan, Precepts of Wizardry. -- "Dog Wizard", Barbara Hambly. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 15:24:11 -0500 (CDT) From: Donald G Bixler Subject: Re: IN> The Marches: A review > Also known as p. 24: "What The Hell Is That?" I'm pretty happy to see the work of more atists. (No offense to Dan.) Also check out the upper-leftmost silhouette on p109. That ain't a spear... > If anyone knows, please, tell me.... My guess would be a Gigeresque monster burning. *shrug* > --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor > GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ Oops da Ogre, Gabe's pic on 18 seemed too feminine to me, but the face is suitably creepy. And the Superior writeups are all good. Like Furfur and Sammy, these four make me interested in playing their servants, unlike the rest, especially Larry mudgb4@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 16:38:32 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Malakim >>>There has never been one single Malakim EVER, in the entire time of Existance, which thought, "Hey, I wanna see if I can Fall", goes off to some weird part of the world where they can't be watched and tries it? It's a poor rule with big logic flaws.<<< Now, the suggestion that its their own internal policing that has kept Malakim from Falling is NOT stated to be the real reason -- it's stated to be one explanation that some angels believe! It's up to the GM to decide how accurate that is (though future supplements may give you more food for thought.... ) I agree with you about the interpretation of "vengeance", though. Of course, I still *like* the idea of Malakim being demons... - -David http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/DavidEdelstein/innomine.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 15:12:43 -0500 (CDT) From: Donald G Bixler Subject: Re: IN> Archangel Vapula > Does Vapula regard himself, like his fellow Habbalah, > as an angel, or being part of the infernal hierarchy, > is he free of this delusion? I would say that he (usually, he does sometimes have some severe mood swings) Honestly, why should a demon who's never been an angel, such as Vapula, share this delusion unless it was the influence of the one who raised him. I tend to leave the "I'm really an angel." delusion mostly to the old guard, who tend to be the most powerful and thus refutation of their beliefs are quiet an out of earshot, and the hellborn Habbalah not as likely to suffer from this particular delusion although all Habbalah are susceptible to odd beliefs due to their inherent emotional instability. > And if he does see himself as an Archangel, what do his > (non-Habbalite) servitors think of him? I would imagine they'd smile and nod and either love the ol' geezer, phantasms and all or plot to remove him from power because he's obviously unfit to rule. Not much different from others, eh? Oops da Ogre, I _can_ see him declaring himself as the avatar of natural selection at times much more easily, that's why he leaves in some bugs mudgb4@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 15:05:36 -0500 From: tom timberlake Subject: Re: Geas Entrapment (Re: IN> Lilith's Potence) Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > > At 3:19 AM +0000 9/18/97, Walt Mazur wrote: > >On Wed, 17 Sep 1997 19:34:45 -0400, Elizabeth McCoy > > wrote: [snip] > >>>I see Lilim as right on the edge, as indicated by Lilith's odd placement in > >>>IN. She isn't quite a Prince(ss). She has that level of power, but not that > >>>level of submission to Lucifer. Somehow she's struck a special deal. > >> > >> That's one way to see her. There are others. > > > >Well, IN says clearly she is not a demon. (P. 150, paragraph 1.) > > Even humans can be as selfish as anything but a Balseraph... You know, the legend I am familiar with says that Lilith was Adam's wife right up to the moment when she pronounced the unspeakable Name of God, when she was removed from the created World in a sudden flash--then came Eve. In short, she couldn't remain mortal after commanding the power of God's True Name. tom, mandarin's butterfly for James the Stone Malak ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 16:38:30 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> In Nomine Canon >>>>Somehow I think TPTB aren't going to go for that level of change. I'm sure not. But you can always do it at home...<<< Please emphasize that, repeatedly, Oh Great Line Editor and Arch-Nemesis! We're trying to make the "official" universe as interesting, internally consistent, widely appealing, and highly exportable as possible -- all at once even! But we're going to introduce canon decisions and plotlines and interpretations of historical events, and so on, that not every GM will like. I *guarantee* that some In Nomine GMs out there are going to come up with their own version of how certain historical events related to the War, and then an official In Nomine supplement will come out and contradict it. How much you want to tinker with the official Steve Jackson Games In Nomine Universe (tm) is up to you -- but speaking as an In Nomine writer who is also an In Nomine GM, *my* In Nomine campaign already differs from the official one (in some cases, differing from stuff *I wrote* for the official universe!) and it's been my impression that this is true of other writers as well. If your campaign is already set up around Lilim being able to trade Geases-- If you want to say Bill Gates is one of Vapula's vessels-- If you think the idea of Malakim secretly being demons (heh heh heh heh heh....)-- Go for it! Just remember that the more you vary from official canon, the more adjustments you will have to make to adapt published products to your campaign. Some GMs like to have everything laid out for them in detail, others like to pretty much reinvent the whole universe. I have my vision of the In Nomine universe, which I advocate whenever possible as a writer. All the other writers have their own visions. The official universe will be an integration of many different visions -- and Elizabeth has the job of making sure everything somehow stays consistent. But never let the fact that TPTB don't agree with you dissuade you from doing things your way in your game-- I sure don't. - -David http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/DavidEdelstein/innomine.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 16:38:25 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Malakim and the Pearcy Gospel >>>All that, and I'll end by repeating how inherently silly it seems to be to so seriously quote /any/ part an IN book as evidence of the eternal order. This is yet another route to bad places (ever see an argument about the background of the World of Darkness - it's like that). It's always good to remember that it's all (good) stuff by (real people) authors. Cool off, grab your favorite food, and discuss intriguing story ideas with all the Real People.<<< Thank you! :) - -David (Author/Real Person, hopefully writing Good Stuff) http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/DavidEdelstein/innomine.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 17:59:37 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> The Marches: A review At 3:24 PM -0500 9/18/97, Donald G Bixler wrote: >> Also known as p. 24: "What The Hell Is That?" > >I'm pretty happy to see the work of more atists. (No offense to Dan.) >Also check out the upper-leftmost silhouette on p109. That ain't a >spear... Guitar. Obviously. >> If anyone knows, please, tell me.... > > My guess would be a Gigeresque monster burning. *shrug* That's all I could come up with. >Oops da Ogre, Gabe's pic on 18 seemed too feminine to me, but the face is > suitably creepy. (Karakash and I were arguing over which of us would be likely to acquire the original, should such a thing be available... We also liked the idea of T-shirts or prints.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 17:59:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Dacit2@aol.com Subject: IN> InNomFAQ List Updates First off, InNom is outstanding. Thank you so much for publishing it; it was worth the wait. My main reason for writing is concerning the FAQ list for the game. I like to stay on top of recent rules clarifications via the WWW, but it has been very inconvenient to have to download and sift through the entire list to find out the latest on the game. What I would suggest (for those of us that are trying to stay on Laurence's cutting edge yet trying to maintain the efficency of Dominic) is that any updated information is given it's own section at the bottom of the FAQ list for 'x' amount of time (one month?) before being integrated into the master list. Not necessarily an entire page, mind you (I know memory doesn't come cheap), just a place where the newest FAQ's and rules clarifications have not yet been 'shuffled into the deck.' Thank you for listening to my little disturbance in the Symphony. Sincerely, Paul Dickey :| Dacit2@aol.com [FNORD, Archangel of Things For Which You Are Not Cleared To Know] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 15:03:46 From: Jeff Miller Subject: Re: IN> Counter-spamming: Existence proof of it working At 04:59 AM 9/17/97 GMT, you wrote: >On Wed, 17 Sep 1997 04:11:11 GMT, w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) wrote: > >>On Wed, 10 Sep 1997 19:23:00 -0800, NotesServer4@hotmail.com wrote: > >Apologies to all: I muffed the address and sent it to the wrong list. Mea >culpa, mea maxima culpa! > It *was* kinda ironic, you know. Jeff Miller Program Director/Webmaster for Agamemcon II Burbank Airport Hilton -- May 22-24, 1998 Contact Info: 24161-H Hollyoak (714)643-8352 Laguna Hills, CA 92656 www.primenet.com/~shadocat/agamemcon.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 13:02:30 From: Jeff Miller Subject: Re: IN>The four cherubim At 07:39 PM 9/17/97 -0400, you wrote: >> >And when I read Beth's response, I saw the four cherubim with not only >> >GBHAE but also in the Small Body manga-style as befits the current >> >misconception of that choir. ("Ahh, kawaii!") >> > >> Oh, no! Not super-deformed Cherubs! >> > >Now think of super-deformed Dominic, with six great big eyes peeping >adorably out of his cute li'l hood. > >[panel 1: SD Dominic and SD Laurence on a cloud, chatting] > >[panel 2: An SD angel with several big jagged angry notes of Discord >hovering over him goes by] > >[panel 3: Before SD Laurence's amazed eyes, SD Dom whips out a mallet >that's twice as big as he is and flattens the Discordant angel, >knocking a hole in the cloud under him with predictable results] > >[panel 4: SD Dom holds up the mallet (we can now see that it has >'REJECTED' carved backward in its face) and grins a goofy Seraph >grin.] > >--G. >-- >Benjamin D. Hutchins, cofounder and Keeper-Straight of the Continuity >Eyrie Productions, Unlimited - An AnimeTech Limited Company -><- >Visit us on the World Wide Web at http://www.eyrie.net/ > I knew it! You work for Nybbas don't you. Jeff Miller Program Director/Webmaster for Agamemcon II Burbank Airport Hilton -- May 22-24, 1998 Contact Info: 24161-H Hollyoak (714)643-8352 Laguna Hills, CA 92656 www.primenet.com/~shadocat/agamemcon.html ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #347 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.