From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Sep 23 10:31:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA13955 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 10:31:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id JAA16280 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 09:36:52 -0500 Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 09:36:52 -0500 Message-Id: <199709231436.JAA16280@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #353 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, September 23 1997 Volume 01 : Number 353 In this digest: Re: IN> The Marches: A review Re: IN> just a thought Re: IN> The Marches: A review Re: IN>The four cherubim Re: IN> just a thought Re: IN> Fleurity's Precedent (was: Homosexuality in In Nomine) Re: IN> just a thought Re: IN> The Marches: A review IN> Off Topic (sort of): Best of Journal of Irreproducible Results IN> Re: in_nomine-digest v.1 #352 IN> Angels in the media Re: IN> Malakim IN> Typical adventures - newbie Q's Re: IN> Typical adventures - newbie Q's Re: IN> A thought - opinions wanted IN> Oakland Raiders Re: IN> artwork Re: IN> Malakim Re: IN> Oakland Raiders Re: IN> just a thought IN> Lilith according to Ben Sira Re: IN> Malakim Re: IN> Oakland Raiders Re: IN> Oakland Raiders ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 18:47:51 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> The Marches: A review > >I'm thinking it looks a lot like Venom (ala Spiderman). But the > >point is walid - I like some of the work in Marches (Perez and Smith, > >mostly - p 82 is nice, too, if a bit cartoony). But some of it...p > >63, aka "The Hand from Hell", and almost everything by whoever that > >is with the arrowhead-like signature. > > It's a stylized "RS," so is probably Snyder. Some of it was good, > but yes, personally, I could do with a lot less RS. Ah - true about the sig. Some was kinda good (p 77), but I get the feeling it was mostly that the editor couldn't refuse the work once it was commissioned. > (More Bruton, though! And Smif, of course. Perez, when he's "hot" > is *hot*. (Gaby!) I can't tell which is Bruton's stuff - is it the stuff with the computer generated bits? Perez still has some rough spots, but I wouldn't complain if he showed up again. > But I didn't like the Pachadim picture, I fear. *sigh*) True. > >Personally, I'm waiting for Micheal to hit the block... > > Hm. Yeah, I can see bidding on him. I probably wouldn't, but I can > see the urge. But dammit, he's my Superior! I was looking at Baal, but the bidding was before Pennsic, and I didn't want to spend the money then. BTW, we need to talk about gaming. What times/dates are you thinking? Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com If you can't beat them, arrange to have them beaten. - George Carlin ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 16:48:07 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> just a thought > underling theme of the campaign, that the players are just starting to > relies now is that the diabolical are right and are conducting a > justified rebellion against a maniacal heavenly government ( with or Heh...well, generally avoiding the `Biblical' basis (since that gets into more serious theology and religious debate..) I like the general idea; I tend to take it as given that the demons, on the whole, at least have good MOTIVES. There're some, especially among those who were created in Hell and didn't Fall, who are just nasty, but Lucifer and those he brought with him rebelled against injustice, or at least perceived injustice.. I do have to disagree a bit with Earl(?)'s comments about having to change people around too much...among other things, I don't see where the lines have to be perfectly drawn in this scenario any more than I do in the traditional Demons-as-bad-guys run...(ie. Novalis is still quite nice, and probably working as much against the `regime' as the Demons...she just believes that Heaven can be redeemed (heh) from within. Similarly, Saminga's still probably a jerk, and viewed by the other Princes as quite dangerous...but effective enough that they keep him on the `team.' Which probably makes the Demons somewhat misguided rebels, but after so long on the losing side, they've probably begun to compromise their morals more than they should...) 'Course, it's probably worth putting a lot of the rest down to publicity. (God had his book out way ahead of time, and with Jesus's whirlwind signing tour...er...) Eg. Asmodeus is actually more the `tough-but-fair' type... > what kind of a government finds knowledge a threat even evil from it's > perspective > say Germany circa 1940 Well, most of them, by all evidence...*sigh* ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 19:42:31 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> The Marches: A review At 6:47 PM +0000 9/22/97, Nathaniel Eliot wrote: >> >I'm thinking it looks a lot like Venom (ala Spiderman). But the >> >point is walid - I like some of the work in Marches (Perez and Smith, >> >mostly - p 82 is nice, too, if a bit cartoony). But some of it...p >> >63, aka "The Hand from Hell", and almost everything by whoever that >> >is with the arrowhead-like signature. >> >> It's a stylized "RS," so is probably Snyder. Some of it was good, >> but yes, personally, I could do with a lot less RS. > >Ah - true about the sig. Some was kinda good (p 77), but I get the >feeling it was mostly that the editor couldn't refuse the work once >it was commissioned. I have no idea. (Though I wish I did...) Certainly *less* of RS would make me happy, though some of the pieces are nice enough. >> (More Bruton, though! And Smif, of course. Perez, when he's "hot" >> is *hot*. (Gaby!) > >I can't tell which is Bruton's stuff - is it the stuff with the >computer generated bits? Perez still has some rough spots, but I >wouldn't complain if he showed up again. That's how I feel about Perez, I think. p. 33 is the only one that has an "HB" on it, but I suspect p. 37, maybe p. 43 & 45, 60, 69, 82 & 83, 97, maybe 98, 103 (smaller one), 104, 109 (the wolfhead), maybe 110, and 126. (Now, anybody in the know can tell me if I'm right or wrong...) >> But I didn't like the Pachadim picture, I fear. *sigh*) > >True. When he's not making people too rectangular, he's good. p. 6 is nice, for instance. >> >Personally, I'm waiting for Micheal to hit the block... >> >> Hm. Yeah, I can see bidding on him. I probably wouldn't, but I can >> see the urge. > >But dammit, he's my Superior! I was looking at Baal, but the bidding >was before Pennsic, and I didn't want to spend the money then. Obviously they should find some way to run off color laser prints... Hmmmm......... >BTW, we need to talk about gaming. What times/dates are you >thinking? Ummmmm.... Right. We didn't set anything? Maybe we should call you... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 16:07:49 From: Jeff Miller Subject: Re: IN>The four cherubim At 08:00 PM 9/18/97 -0400, you wrote: >> I knew it! You work for Nybbas don't you. > >There's no need to be insulting. > [kender mode ON] Who? Me? [kender mode OFF] Jeff Miller Program Director/Webmaster for Agamemcon II Burbank Airport Hilton -- May 22-24, 1998 Contact Info: 24161-H Hollyoak (714)643-8352 Laguna Hills, CA 92656 www.primenet.com/~shadocat/agamemcon.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 20:14:56 -0500 From: Colin Fredericks Subject: Re: IN> just a thought >Here's one for contemplation I was just looking at the In Nomina >collection2 >in the section on reasons for the fall( under In Nomina misc. ) and I >noticed one of my personal favorites was missing ( more on that later ) [muchos snipos] >now if this sounds odd take another look at the In Nomina misc. and >think of this as the same God that destroyed an complete choir of >angels for failing ti sing his proper praise [snip] >what kind of a government finds knowledge a threat even evil from it's >perspective >say Germany circa 1940 Three things, Chuck: 1. Spell the name of the game right next time. In Nomine, not In Nomina. 2. Read the comment from Croc on the title page: "Don't play this game backwards." The settings and beliefs described in In Nomine just don't support the "God-as-a-nazi" idea (yes, I know you were just making a comparison). Take Eli, Yves, Novalis, and Janus for examples. Although you have brought up one idea that does resonate (sorry for the pun) with the In Nomine paradigm: One of the main Fascist ideas is of unity bringing strength. 3. You're trying to Eff. Nothing wrong with that, just pointing it out. :) Stay Cool; -Sir Colin ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 16:50:22 From: Jeff Miller Subject: Re: IN> Fleurity's Precedent (was: Homosexuality in In Nomine) >What I AM going to cast asparagus [sic] upon is the stuff below... > >>Also demons are probably neutral on it but they probably favor positions >>against it. Malphas probably advocates groups "against it" just because it >>creates factions. > >Several demons work this way. Consider Fleurity's strategy (from Night >Music -- duh!) of fostering both the dependence and pushing of drugs and >the draconian actions taken against those same drugs and the users in >order to increase strife in their particular field. > That wsa the kind of thing that I was thinking about. >> Andre also likes the bad press since it means that >>people will be more likely to act on it out of lust than love. > >Andre IMHO seems to be more for *all* forms of sex, not just those forms >that aren't completely accepted by society. > I see him being more interested in corrupting all forms of sex. People are less likely to enter a *loving* homosexual relationship if they think of it as dirty or perverted. A homosexual (or heteralsexual who thinks of sex as a sin) of that mindset will generally enter a sexual relationship just to satisfy his urges (or worse, as a meaningless purely physical act because it is expected) rather than to bring joy or happiness to another. The bad press is what helps drive sex (of any sort) out of Eli's court. >> Kronos >>likes it being "bad" since if someone thinks it's wrong and does it anyway, >>it makes them more likely to move toward their fate. > >In this case, Kronos could swing either way -- and wipe that grin off >your face, you know damn well what I mean! )>:) Who? Me? If his cause could be >furthered by putting someone into an abusive relationship, homosexual or >not, then he'll order it. If OTOH he can drive someone to his Fate by >making him condemn someone else's relationship, consentual or not, then >he'll order that. > I wasn't saying that he felt one way or another about homosexuality itself. He just likes it being against the rules. Since someone who gets use to breaking one rule is more likely to break others. >In fact, almost every angel and demon will have a fluid perspective on >it. Some will find it (or anything) wrong more often than others, but >there are very few absolute evils in the cosmology of In Nomine that I >can see. And if you think about it, that's quite an irony. > True. I think that very few would think that homosexuality has, in and of itself, any moral leanings. Like most everything, it's the how and why that matters. Jeff Miller Program Director/Webmaster for Agamemcon II Burbank Airport Hilton -- May 22-24, 1998 Contact Info: 24161-H Hollyoak (714)643-8352 Laguna Hills, CA 92656 www.primenet.com/~shadocat/agamemcon.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 19:28:35 -0500 (CDT) From: Dorothy Bixler Subject: Re: IN> just a thought On Mon, 22 Sep 1997, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > Chuck Ryan wrote: > > > what do you think about the consept I put forth as a whole > > [i.e. that the devils are right and are making a justifiable > rebellion against tyranny] > > I am afraid it is not to my personal taste. I am a Christian > in real life, and the inversion ... just doesn't appeal. Yeah, kinda like I have trouble liking the angels and all. It's not easy being damned around here. The whole "Lucifer is right" isn't new. Milton had some of it in "Paradise Lost". Personally I love the concept, but hey, I'm evil (tm). > > If you're going to do it, then you will have to clean up the > IN Princes and Bands somewhat to make them acceptable "good guys." > For instance, it'll be hard to have the Princes collecting human > souls to torture in various ways for millenia or forever. Or to > have Sheddim possessing people and committing attrocities with them, > as in the book example. > Not necessarily. It's all how you view things. There is a need for punishment in the Universe; there are souls that deserve an eternity of torture. Besides if _you_ want your In Nomine Hell to only punish the deserving, well you're the GM. The book doesn't have to be the absolute truth in your game. It's not in mine. > Likewise, you'll have to blacken the characters of the Archangels. > For some, like Dominic, this will be trivial; clearly, even Derek > didn't like Dominic much. But Novalis, for instance, would have to > be re-written entirely or depicted rather like Eli, completely > disconnected from reality. > Or she could just be a poor deluded soul, only in need of knowing the real truth. It's Yves that need "blackening" (delete my rant on using black=evil). He becomes much more sinister when you play him as knowing the truth and keeping it from humanity in order to keep them in line. > Earl Wajenberg > Aunt Dotti, the resident Satanic crank. *Dorothy Michelle Bixler * mudmh10@ecom.ecn.bgu.edu* "Gidget, have you been laying with the Horned One again?" -MST3K's Mike from "The Thing the Couldn't Die" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 21:48:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Starcrossed Subject: Re: IN> The Marches: A review > >I can't tell which is Bruton's stuff - is it the stuff with the > >computer generated bits? > > That's how I feel about Perez, I think. > p. 33 is the only one that has an "HB" on it, but I suspect p. 37, > maybe p. 43 & 45, 60, 69, 82 & 83, 97, maybe 98, 103 (smaller one), > 104, 109 (the wolfhead), maybe 110, and 126. Don't forget p. 7 (Blandine), which I found to be one of his best -- they *really* should have had the same artist draw Beleth and Blandine, given their histories, though. (And it should have been HB, not RS. His art doesn't do it for me, at least not for In Nomine. Wrong feel entirely.) - -- John Trussell truss@hotblack.gweep.net ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 22:10:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Mark Kinney Subject: IN> Off Topic (sort of): Best of Journal of Irreproducible Results I recently acquired a book called _The Best of the Journal of Irreproducible Results_. For those unfamiliar with said publication, it's sort of a parody scientific journal that's been publishing for a little over forty years now, with articles ranging from "National Geographic: The Doomsday Machine" about how the mass of all the National Geographics in the US are going to sink the continent, to "Weekend Scientist: Build Your Own Thermonuclear Device." In the "Let's Get Metaphysical" section of the book are a couple of articles that the In Nomine player/GM may find interesting. "Request for Suppliment to U.C.F. Grant #000-00-00000-001 'Creation of the Universe': A Proposal" by Jay M. Pasachoff and Spencer R. Weart. and "The Learning of a Simple Maze Habit by Angels" by David Lester. (This one is especially good. They list the nine species of angels, and obtained their test samples [36 each of Cherubim and Archangels] from Carolina Theological Supply Company.) Just thought you'd like to know. :-) alberich@iglou.com | Mark Kinney | http://www.iglou.com/nations "Oh, we've got a bigger dressing room than the puppets? How refreshing!" -- David St. Hubbins, "This Is Spinal Tap" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 22:01:58 -0500 (CDT) From: "Austin G. Loomis" Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest v.1 #352 On Mon, 22 Sep 1997, at 09:49:47 EDT, Dominic Braun wrote: > I love the band idea, but I think that the resonance is a little > out of tune for a fallen Malakim. Mind you, I still like the > idea of a band that can't fall, but if they were to fall I think > the resonance would still be somehow tied to honor. I think > that a fallen Malakim would be the _most_ persuasive member of > Hell's armies. > That has its merits. Personally, part of the idea behind the Chandim was the notion that their Fall pushed them so far from their Malakite nature that they can't even stand to be reminded of it. (And their name is a literary reference, like I said. I dredged up the name, gave them the celestial form to go with it [those who've read Eddings' Garion books recognized it, I trust], then was casting about for a resonance when I gave them the Door Dog power of ill-fortune because I've been reading _The Western Lands_ recently.) [Mikalam] At the risk of being facetious, the only differences I could see between that Band and Lilim are (a) they can induce violations of a victim's moral code at lower check digits and (b) they don't *give* anything in return. > OK, sorry it got kind of long winded there, but it was a spur > of the moment thing ( besides, I haven't had breakfast :) ). > That's okay. I haven't had breakfast yet either. (I had dinner a few hours ago, but it's not the same thing...) > I do like the Chandim though, I think I'm just going to use > them as a separate minor band ( and create the corresponding > angelic counterparts ). > You can do that if you like. > Let me know what you guys think about the Mikalam ( I've got > to find a new name for these guys ). > I'm sure Beth'll have some suggestions... On Mon, 22 Sep 1997 18:40:46 BST, GR Cogman wrote: > Belial : "HOT COFFEE! YEAH!" > or : (tosses coffee cup across the room to shatter) "IT'S NOT HOT ENOUGH!" > Furfur : "WE DON'T NEED NO STINKING COFFEE! TURN THE SOUND UP!" What about Fleurity? I can't believe he *wouldn't* have anything to say about coffee. > And, for the last word: > > Lucifer : "You could ask me for anything, and you have requested a cup of > coffee?" > What d'you think, Gryphon? Does that fall in the "so straightforward it can't be twisted and so small that Lucifer will be too proud to deny it" category? (The Hutchins has a vignette on his web page illustrating what that sort of thing is like, involving his hard-boiled Mercurian Marlael. At the risk of gushing and having to get malleted, I recommend it to all whose senses of humor are as twisted as mine.) On Mon, 22 Sep 1997, at 16:07:52 EDT, Elizabeth McCoy herownbadself wrote: > At 7:48 AM -0500 9/22/97, Shadowcat wrote: > >On Wed, 17 Sep 1997, Benjamin D. Hutchins wrote: [...] > >> Now think of super-deformed Dominic, with six great big eyes peeping > >> adorably out of his cute li'l hood. > > > > I am getting an image of Le Petite Morte from XXXenophile with six > >eyes. Beth make it go away....PLEASE. > > I can't. It's a contagious meme. Help... > > I've never seen Le Petite Morte, but I can imagine the SD Archangels, even if I couldn't (I suspect) draw them. > [And if anybody will send me a GIF or JPEG, I will put in an art > section for the INC, for the finest selections...] > I'd click on that, certainly. (When I was at a Netscape terminal and not my crippled home machine...) On Mon, 22 Sep 1997, at 16:16:58 MDT, Kingsley Lintz wrote: [...] > > Lucifer : "You could ask me for anything, and you have requested a cup of > > coffee?" > Heheh...oh, great. Lucifer the Paranoid Archangel. "Here I am, > soul the size of a planet, and He asks me to close the pearly gates. > Life. Don't talk to me about life." No WONDER he rebelled...that pain > down all the feathers in his left side... > You're a hurtin' puppy, Kingsley. I like that. On Mon, 22 Sep 1997, at 18:33:33 GMT, Nathaniel Eliot wrote: > > Another option is that the Ethereal gods are actually *copies* of > > the various Superiors (and lesser celestials), created by human > > intrepretation of the stories told of encounters with these > > beings. (Of course, this option nixes the "God is a souped-up > > ethereal" idea, but whether it's true or not in your game, the PCs > > will probably assume that's how it works. So Loki is the "brainchild" > > of... Janus? Lucifer? Both conglomerated together in human imagination? > > Thor and Ares/Mars all owe their existance to Michael, Aphrodite is > > related to Andre and/or Eli, Athena is probably akin to Jean...) > > If you don't want to nix the uber-Ethereal idea, it could go in > reverse. Michael owes a lot of his design to Ares & Thor, Andre > (before he fell) was modeled on Aphrodite, et all. > I probably should have mentioned this upthread, but remember many moons ago when I sparked some discussion of C.S. Lewis' _Space Trilogy_? There's a scene near the end of _Perelandra_ where the Oyarses of Perelandra (Venus) and Malacandra (Mars) manifest, in (for our purposes) celestial form before the awestruck Ransom, who finds the one feminine and the other masculine even though they have no gender as humans understand the term. He identifies them mentally as the originals from whom the pagans drew Aphrodite and Ares. (Perelandra, in my Space Trilogy/IN mapping, is obviously Novalis, and Malacandra is Laurence, though only because Michael is Jupiter/Glund.) Austin G. "Okay, I've stopped talking, you can wake up now" Loomis, MiSTie #84029 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 23:24:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Kim Foster Subject: IN> Angels in the media I was curious if they're had beeen any discussion or interest in the depication of Angels in popular media. Recently they seem to have been popular with several movies and a television show (Which I have never seen, people keep telling me it good.) Has anyone looked at this in In Nomine terms? Are there any good ideas to plageri-err... creatively extropolate in them? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 03:56:08 -0400 From: "Steven Ehrbar" Subject: Re: IN> Malakim My take on fallen Malakim is simple. There's one, and he had the title of Lightbringer before he Fell. Since then, either the Angels have destroyed discordiant Malakim before they Fall, or the Morning Star's killed them after they Fall, believing them to be potentially dangerous rivals. Steven "Gazebo" Edward Ehrbar ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 17:12:53 +1000 From: Jason Mulligan Subject: IN> Typical adventures - newbie Q's Hi, I just placed an order for In Nomine with my local RPG store and I have been wondering what typical adventures entail generally in this game. Also, I was wondering if there were any plans to publish either formal adventure modules or licensed fiction of any sort in the future. - -- Jason Mulligan "The path of my life is strewn with cowpats from the devil's own satanic herd!" - Edmund Blackadder ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 04:14:07 -0500 (CDT) From: Donald G Bixler Subject: Re: IN> Typical adventures - newbie Q's > Hi, I just placed an order for In Nomine with my local RPG store and I have > been wondering what typical adventures entail generally in this game. Also, > I was wondering if there were any plans to publish either formal adventure > modules or licensed fiction of any sort in the future. Well, each of the threee supplements (GM's screen, "Night Music", and "The Marches"), have had an adventure in them, although The Marches was more of a setting/plot seed, really. As to what Dotti and I use, Dotti's ran "Feast of Blades" and I've put her in a variety of odd situations, from your standard McGuffin hunt (Dolly the cloned sheep), to fun with a weekend warlock who managed to actually pull off a spell (summon Dotti's PC at 10" tall), to a slightly modified version of "Demon Prince of Rock N Roll" currently. There's been no real pattern other than cameos by a certain djinn of tech. Then again, we don't play angels, which seems to be the most common setting. For some plot ideas, check out the In Nomine Collection(s) (now available in Original, Paul Strack, and Elizabeth McCoy flavors). You can find them in the unofficial IN pages page at SJ Games. Try http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/unofficial.html If that doesn't work, because of a typo, just navigate through resources to the unofficial pages link via http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/ I doubt that there will be adventures published separately any time soon since the Revelations Cycle of books is being cranked out as quickly as celestially possible and I don't think (but I'm not one with inside knowledge) that there have been any arrangements for fiction, although it is a possibility. > Jason Mulligan Oops da Ogre, currently writing up the demons as they were before Yaweh decided that the Symphony needed a little redecorating... mudgb4@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu (personal) umabel@pyramid.sjgames.com (IN website related) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 03:29:14 -0700 (PDT) From: lugaid@seanet.com Subject: Re: IN> A thought - opinions wanted On 1997-09-22 in_nomine-l@lists.io.com said to lugaid@seanet.com >> the discussion recently of Malakim-as-demons-in-Heaven >>complements very well the "secret history" of my own (formative) >>campaign... i would, however like some commentary on the idea... >You know, you're scaring me with this. It's a little *too* close to >my ideas. Perhaps some cross fertilization is in order... i'd love to... and, hey! you know what they say, "fools think ali..." umm... i mean, "great minds run in the same channel!" ;) >> with Himself alone suited to command it (not surprising, actually, >> considering that only He had the foresight to devise this plan)... >Yep - pretty close to me. In my game, it isn't his foresight that >makes his plan work - it's a new source of power he has discovered: >Words. my thinking was more that this was the reason that God felt that only He was suited to run things in the wake of the successful implementation of His plan... the reason that His plan succeeded was not something i had yet felt the need to deal with (i'm still working out the metaphysics involved)... the concept of Words fits well into the mix... >> to do this, He had to rewrite the Symphony, but the other Ethereal >I dunno about rewriting the Symphony - for me, the Symphony only >really exists in the Corporeal, with some shadow in the Ethereal. >It's not something you can rewrite. where, for me, the Symphony is the whole ball of wax, and any change is rewriting a portion of it... God wanted to rewrite the whole thing, which was the genius of His plan... >But for the most part, it's not important. Very few things that >aren't Celestial remember before Yahweh. The angels have all been >programmed to believe that God created the universe. It would have >been perfect, but Yahweh didn't count on one thing - anything with >Celestial Forces has a *real* will, and can't truely be brainwashed. you're right... it probably won't have any direct relevance to my game... but, i like to have a True Account in mind when doing things, to create a framework that is consistent, even if i deliberately violate it on occasion... ;) and, also, the Ethereals (some of them, anyway) know parts of the Truth... >> he looked around to find followers at first, but was not able to >> find many from among the Ethereals (perhaps only one, who may have >> once been named Asherah, and may have later become known as >> Lilith?)... >Okay - question here. How far are you taking the Snow Crash >references in your game? I plan to have some fun with them (like >the Celestial tounge resembling glossolalia) actually, i hadn't even considered _Snow Crash_ yet... i'm paying more attention to _Black Easter_, _The Day After Judgement_, _Magic, Inc._, _Paradise Lost_, _Inferno_ (Dante's *and* Niven/Pournelle's) and the rest of the Divine Comedy, the writings of John Dee, the poetry of Baudelaire, _The Screwtape Letters_, the works of William Blake, and movies like _The Prophecy_ (1995), _Wings of Desire_, and _The Omen_... for Ethereals, i'm concentrating on such things as Lovecraft's Dreamlands works (and the antecedents thereof, such as Dunsany, Machen, and Chambers), and the writings of George "AE" Russell (_The Candle of Vision_), as well as others... good idea, and i'll have to re-read it with those ideas in mind... >> so He turned elsewhere, and His attentions settled on a group of >> outcast, run-down entities who lived in the neighboring Celestial >> realm... they were known as Demons... >Interesting! This I hadn't thought of. that was actually the central idea that exploded into the others... that one came from wondering about the nature of Falling... i have a hard time getting emotionally behind the "removed from God's Grace" explanation... >Again, interesting. My Heaven is just an extension of God's >Celestial Form, and Hell is the Celestial corpse of Metatron. >Technically, it's just part of the Ethereal (which fits fairly >well with the cannon description). excellent ideas! i hadn't thought of that, but it works *really* well... for instance, at the beginning of _Paradise Lost_, Hell is described as a vile body: "...fuell'd entrails thence conceiving Fire,/Sublim'd with mineral fury, aid the Winds,/And leave a singed bottom all involv'd/With stench and smoke..." (Book I, lines 234-7)... yes, Milton was describing Hell in terms of gastric processes... ;) >No - God chained them with their vows. They *couldn't* leave. perfect... that works exceedingly well... and it also makes for a wonderful mirror of the Infernal Host, chained to the Lake and Vale of Fire... hehehe... Demons chained to Heaven... it's sick and wrong... ;) Slan agus Beannachtai, Lugaid MacRobert "The tygers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction." Blake Net-Tamer V 1.08X - Test Drive ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 12:44:51 -0400 From: "Jens H. Kruuse" Subject: IN> Oakland Raiders Would somebody in charge somewhere please ask Kobal to stop messing with my favorite team. It's not funny anymore! I suppose that the somebody ought to be (Arch?)angel Beth of the archives. She must be involved with the team as we, the fans, keep going on and on about the Great Raider History. So Beth, please? Other teams with a sponsor: Dallas Cowboys: Fleurity Tennessee Oilers: Valefor Green Bay Packers: Asmodeus And for the record: >Nathaniel Eliot >temujin9@ix.netcom.com > >Better to rule in Hell than to serve in Heaven. > - Milton My copy reads "Better to reign..." Jens Charter member of ORIB http://www.orib.org/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 08:23:31 -0400 From: "Chuck Ryan" Subject: Re: IN> artwork >If you had a GIF or JPEG version, I could put it on the INC pages. >(In Nomine Collection.) > I can make it into a JPG or GIF and send it back, >if you want. Ah, I'm working on it CHUCK ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 08:43:07 -0400 (EDT) From: "Emily K. Dresner" Subject: Re: IN> Malakim > My take on fallen Malakim is simple. There's one, and he > had the title of Lightbringer before he Fell. Since then, either > the Angels have destroyed discordiant Malakim before they > Fall, or the Morning Star's killed them after they Fall, believing > them to be potentially dangerous rivals. > > Steven "Gazebo" Edward Ehrbar Except that Lucifer is a Balseraph. Or a Seraph, depending on how screwed up your game is. :) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 09:04:32 -0400 (EDT) From: "Emily K. Dresner" Subject: Re: IN> Oakland Raiders On Tue, 23 Sep 1997, Jens H. Kruuse wrote: > Would somebody in charge somewhere please ask Kobal to stop messing > with my favorite team. It's not funny anymore! Hee hee hee. Actually, it's QUITE funny. Rather humorous. I mean, losing to the Jets. I would think that it was more of a Kobal-Nybbas liason. And that kicker? A scream! :) *tease* > Other teams with a sponsor: > Dallas Cowboys: Fleurity > Tennessee Oilers: Valefor > Green Bay Packers: Asmodeus I always knew the Cowboys and the Packers were evil. - - Em, Funny Person ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 09:11:50 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> just a thought At 8:14 PM -0500 9/22/97, Colin Fredericks wrote: [...] > 2. Read the comment from Croc on the title page: "Don't play this >game backwards." The settings and beliefs described in In Nomine just don't >support the "God-as-a-nazi" idea (yes, I know you were just making a >comparison). Actually, if you want to cite *Croc*, the *original* In Nomine *does* support a certain amount of that, from what I've heard... (J.C. as "Daddy's Little Archangel," for instance, and IIRC, an outright statement that God *is* not much more than a hopped up ethereal, who just discovered that there was yummy Essence being generated by these funky human things, and decided to get some...) Demons are weak and independant (Freedom is Good!), angels are strong, clueless, and conformists. And humans are the rugby-ball being kicked around between them. (With teaspoons as weapons with stats, no less! And for more than the Malakim of Eli.) The SJG In Nomine appears to have toned down the satire a lot... (If anything, I sometimes find myself sympathizing *more* with this view of religion than with what my grandfather watches on TV, or what people used to hand out pamphlets about, outside the UT Registration building...) Anyway, weird comments on how the game might be run are perfectly in keeping with the list (when going off on tangents, whether the book says something or not becomes irrelevant). I did up an adventure seed, myself, regarding one way to drop the PCs into Yrth. (I think I liked the "It's all a Vapula-Nybbas plot, and in a week, they'll get landed in Cthulhupunk..." option best, myself.) It's not like we're going to suddenly change all the published material around, y'know. For one thing, that would be *way* too much work without the Pen of Editing. (An artifact for the Demon Princess of Line Editing; change one copy of a print-run with the Pen, and all the rest change too...) So go ahead and play the game backwards. Just don't complain if some of the rules look a little wonky when you read them in the mirror. O;> - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 09:21:51 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: IN> Lilith according to Ben Sira The tale of Lilith as Adam's first wife came up again recently. I figured it might interest the list to see a translation of this tale, from a collection called "The Alphabet of Ben Sira." Please note, by the way, that this "Alphabet" is in no way an official religious document. It is a collection of folktales that first circulated in the middle ages. Before this, there is no record of Lilith as Adam's first wife, though there was Talmudic speculation that she seduced Adam after the Fall, thus beginning the race of Lilim. There are three strands to the image of Lilith -- Adam's first wife (the most recent strand), temptress-demon, and destroyer of children. Earl Wajenberg - --------------    "After God created Adam, who was alone, He said, 'It is not good for man to be alone' (Gen. 2:18). He then created a woman for Adam, from the earth, as He had created Adam himself, and called her Lilith. Adam and Lilith began to fight. She said, 'I will not lie below,' and he said, 'I will not lie beneath you, but only on top. For you are fit only to be in the bottom position, while am to be in the superior one.' Lilith responded, 'We are equal to each other inasmuch as we were both created from the earth.' But they would not listen to one another. When Lilith saw this, she pronounced the Ineffable Name and flew away into the air. Adam stood in prayer before his Creator: 'Sovereign of the universe!' he said, 'the woman you gave me has run away.' At once, the Holy One, blessed be He, sent three angels to bring her back.    "Said the Holy One to Adam, 'If she agrees to come back, fine. If not she must permit one hundred of her children to die every day.' The angels left God and pursued Lilith, whom they overtook in the midst of the sea, in the mighty waters wherein the Egyptians were destined to drown. They told her God's word, but she did not wish to return. The angels said, 'We shall drown you in the sea.'    "'Leave me!' she said. 'I was created only to cause sickness to infants. If the infant is male, I have dominion over him for eight days after his birth, and if female, for twenty days.'    "When the angels heard Lilith's words, they insisted she go back. But she swore to them by the name of the living and eternal God: 'Whenever I see you or your names or your forms in an amulet, I will have no power over that infant.' She also agreed to have one hundred of her children die every day. Accordingly, every day one hundred demons perish, and for the same reason, we write the angels' names on the amulets of young children. When Lilith sees their names, she remembers her oath, and the child recovers." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 08:37:28 -0500 (CDT) From: Donald G Bixler Subject: Re: IN> Malakim > Except that Lucifer is a Balseraph. Or a Seraph, depending on how screwed > up your game is. :) Hah! That's just what THEY _want_ you to think! Oops da Ogre, looking over his shoulder mudgb4@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 10:08:38 -0400 From: "Chuck Ryan" Subject: Re: IN> Oakland Raiders Emily K. Dresner wrote: > On Tue, 23 Sep 1997, Jens H. Kruuse wrote: > > > Would somebody in charge somewhere please ask Kobal to stop messing > > with my favorite team. It's not funny anymore! > > Hee hee hee. Actually, it's QUITE funny. Rather humorous. I mean, > losing to the Jets. I would think that it was more of a Kobal-Nybbas > liason. And that kicker? A scream! :) > the master says he's not quit done yet !but if you feel your alone please see his work on Dallas > *tease* > > > Other teams with a sponsor: > > Dallas Cowboys: Fleurity > > Tennessee Oilers: Valefor > > Green Bay Packers: Asmodeus > > I always knew the Cowboys and the Packers were evil. > > - Em, Funny Person ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 10:30:03 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Oakland Raiders At 12:44 PM -0400 9/23/97, Jens H. Kruuse wrote: >Would somebody in charge somewhere please ask Kobal to stop messing >with my favorite team. It's not funny anymore! >I suppose that the somebody ought to be (Arch?)angel Beth of the >archives. She must be involved with the team as we, the fans, keep going >on and on about the Great Raider History. So Beth, please? Hrm? But, but, but... I don't *do* sports. I just record stuff... You wouldn't want me for sport-sponsoring anyway -- you'd want an Ofanite or Cherub or Malakite. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #353 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.