From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Sep 24 22:35:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA01162 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 22:35:23 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id WAA05542 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 22:03:40 -0500 Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 22:03:40 -0500 Message-Id: <199709250303.WAA05542@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #357 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, September 24 1997 Volume 01 : Number 357 In this digest: RE: IN> Angels in the media IN> see the light Re: IN> just a thought Re: IN> Reading Material/Resources: Re: IN> Reading Material/Resources: Re: IN> Loki's Stuff Re: IN> Typical adventures - newbie Q's Re: IN> Malakim, Lucifer. Re: IN> just a thought Re: IN> just a thought Re: IN> A thought - opinions wanted Re: IN> The Marches: Errata and questions Re: IN> Hello + Quick Question About Shedim Re: IN> The Marches: Errata and questions Re: IN> Janus, Valefor, and ...?! Re: IN> Demon of Duelling Re: IN> just a thought Re: IN> A thought - opinions wanted Re: IN> Reading Material/Resources: Re: IN> A thought - opinions wanted Re: IN> Typical adventures - newbie Q's Re: IN> Typical adventures - newbie Q's Re: IN> A thought - opinions wanted Re: IN> just a thought IN> Devil's Advocate (Slightly Off Topic) Re: IN> Typical adventures - newbie Q's IN> Angel of alcohol ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 11:04:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Dennis C Hwang Subject: RE: IN> Angels in the media On Tue, 23 Sep 1997, PERRY M. LLOYD wrote: > Mon, 22 Sep 1997 23:24:06 -0400 (EDT) > Kim Foster > said: > > >I was curious if they're had beeen any discussion or interest in the > >depication of Angels in popular media. Recently they seem to have been > >popular with several movies and a television show (Which I have never seen, > >people keep telling me it good.) Has anyone looked at this in In Nomine > >terms? Are there any good ideas to plageri-err... creatively extropolate in > >them? > > Well, just a few days ago I came across a comic book called Book of Angels... > or something like that... > Published by... drat! where'd that thing go? Published by Cavalier (sp?) > Comics... Damn, where the hell did that go? Stupid imps... > > The issue I bought was... lacking in depth, shall we say. A bit contrived. > But, the protrayal of the angel wasn't SO bad. :) I heard some murmurings once about a TV show in the UK called "The Heretic", regarding the War between Heaven and Hell. Sounded pretty cool. Anyone here know any more about it? - --Dennis, aka Imago, Kyriotate of Jordi dchwang@itsa.ucsf.edu xenopathologist at large! Deathwalker for President: for some *real* health care reform. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 15:29:38 -0400 From: "Chuck Ryan" Subject: IN> see the light (You going to tell me Bert and Ernie are EVIL? To the corner with you for four hours!) this you have got to see and just goes to show you never no who the good guys really are are demon friends in the media most have worked overtime to cover this up http://fractalcow.com/bert/bert.htm go there it worth it really CHUCK ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 97 16:31 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> just a thought > Oooh...I don't like Jean AT ALL. Given this neat little book by >Yves that gives him all the Secrets of The Universe and lets him build >everything perfectly the first time, and he just sits up in his lab >feeling superior and OCCASIONALLY letting one of his Angels use something >neat...but Heaven forbid (heh) they show it to a human...grr... ... >{Unless, of course, Jean decides we've invented something he wanted to >keep to himself for a few more years. Grr.} I don't see Jean as *quite* that restrictive. Yes, he doesn't dispense celestial tech to humans, but he also doesn't impede humans' progress *on their own*. After all, inspiration is one of the aspects of his Word. I see his servitors as encouraging human innovation in beneficial areas, but not handing out answers to specific problems, and discouraging research into things that are disruptive to the Symphony. I suspect he doesn't approve of weapons research, for example, or the knowing (or deliberate) design and production of shoddy products. Remember Jean is an Elohite, and takes the long view of things. I see his goal as encouraging humans to invent things on their own, not to hand out neat tech. Yes, this hurts people (by not helping them *now*), but this is what I'd consider a typical Elohite viewpoint. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 16:22:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Highway Star Subject: Re: IN> Reading Material/Resources: First off - thanks to everyone who sent me info on Principa Discordia. I'll probably order it through my local game store soon.:) According to Shadowcat: > > Check out ArchBeths conversion of Iou to In Nomine. > I have that on print out from when I first got the game in June; I'm assuming that it hasn't changed much since then, but I'll hit her web page this week and make sure. I'm making extensive changes in her conversion, though, to keep it more like I want it - not denigrating her work, obviously, as I'm very impressed with it. (We have a "University Union" here and I keep making "University Confederacy" jokes about it - - ripped off from IOU, I'm afraid ). So my players are going to have fun; remember that I like time travel (heh heh), Illuminati conspiracies, and Cthulhu...uh oh, plus all the stuff I wrote about a long time ago. I'll post my updated campaign ideas here soon, once I get "The Marches" and "Night Music" - which should be in right now! OOO! SeanMike - -- The Tree of Liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots. - Thomas Jefferson, 1787 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 16:54:02 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Reading Material/Resources: At 3:32 PM -0400 9/23/97, Highway Star wrote: >At 11:04 -0400 9/23/97, MarkDEddy@aol.com wrote: >>Here is a list of books that I have found useful in plotting my In Nomine >>campaign: >--snip-- > >Good list - though I just have to suggest "Job: A Comedy of Justice" by >RAH. Great book, and what a fun way to run Heaven and Hell. > >Of course, I'm busy squeezing GURPS IOU (which I just bought yesterday, and >LOVE - good job, Archangel Beth!) Thanks! My spouse helped, of course... >and Callahan's Crosstime Saloon (I don't have the GURPS supplement >*yet*, but I've read all the books) into my game. IOU is going to be the >"dark side" of UVA (darkly illuminated), and I've read all kinds of >whacky books getting ready for this campaign. BWAHAHAHAHAHA!:) So, you've read the In Nomine IOU conversion on the INC, then? Darkly illuminated, ooooo. That sounds like it might be fun. >Oh, btw, I saw mentioned in GURPS IOU that SJ Games prints one version of >the Principia Discordia. I don't remember having seen that for sale on the >web page - does anyone know how much it costs? Urm. No. But you can probably ask sjgames@io.com ... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 17:00:29 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Loki's Stuff At 4:56 PM -0400 9/23/97, Kirt A. Dankmyer -- aka Loki wrote: >I worked all those up for the In Nomine game I'm currently running. Such a >thing inspires me, or else my players will have nothing to do. ;) > >List members will be glad to know I stole lots of their creations for the >game. ;) None of my players are on the list, and they shot KK last session... That's K.K.!! (I'd love to hear the story off-list, BTW.) And I'll get yours up on my INC pages soon, I hope. That okay? - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 17:51:48 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Typical adventures - newbie Q's At 9:27 AM +1000 9/24/97, Jason Mulligan wrote: >Gregory Littmann wrote: >I was just wondering whether the game was built around actual conflicts (ie >lots of actual combat) or not. From what I've seen, you can do that -- or you can manage without it. >Thats what I thought. Now, PC's can be demons? I'm guessing you can't very >easily have a group consisting of demons and angels :) PCs can be demons. Having a mixed group is hard. Some of the PCs will have to be pariahs from their respective species. I like Renegade Demons, myself. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 17:53:25 -0400 (EDT) From: "Emily K. Dresner" Subject: Re: IN> Malakim, Lucifer. > I rather liked that idea myself... Lucifer as a Malakite... > And he fell. > And in falling he became a Balseraph - but he was already pretending > to be a Malakim. Conclusion: Lucifer got stuck in his own personal symphony, > where he is a Malakite - one who faced God to preserve his honor. And the > occasional fallen Malakim? "Well, *they* didn't stick with their vows - > certainly God sent them to me for their destruction." > > I think it covers all, doesn't it? St. Tomas is right, Steven is > emotionally satisfied and... I rather liked it! :-) > You have an interesting point. But I'm feeling vaguely motivated to defend my stand. It's vague, I tell you! VAGUE! So the light goes on, the warning goes up, more exhaustion induced ramblings ahead. I was writing some In Nomine prose today (probably more will come out of that), and I realized what an enormous lie Hell really was. It's a never ending back-feeding cycle that just feeds in on itself. The demons who Fell were convinced they were doing the right thing by a smooth talking Seraphim who spoke eloquently of Free Will and the right as God's first creation to be held above all else. And now the few that exist from the original group find themselves trapped in the sea of politics and greed and lies which keep them from being able to find redemption, since they are so entrenched in their own little greedy piece of self created paradise that to try to leave will seal their own destruction. Those who Fall are often of the "grass is greener" mindset, or disillusioned, only to find that it's much of the same, only worse. Those who were raised there know no different way of existing - and they may be the only ones who can truely be redeemed. It's a lure, really, to Hell, with the belief in Free Will and the right to do what you please, as long as its in the bounds of your Master's belief system. You get there and it's an incredible lie. You are bound to a Master, clutching panically for existance, who is in turn bound to the biggest liar in existance. Who is bound to what, God? Mankind? There is no Free Will. There is only slavery, to your Master, your peers, and your own cracked view of the universe, from which you cannot just walk away. I don't see honor, or even a twisted sense --- mostly because I see Lucifer being the mover and the shaker behind the entire system. It may have been one of his MOTIVATIONS, but one (I hope!) can be honorable without being a Malakim. As for me and Fallen Malakim, I have no idea if I'm even going to use all that stuff I talked about. I might not. I might. Who knows. Luckily my players don't. I have alot more prose and gaming sessions in me yet. [And somewhere in the back of my mind is an image of Lucifer, alone, realizing that without Heaven, he has no War and cannot justify his continuing existance. He is the dark mirror image of what it was he fought against, and there cannot be a Dark without the Light, for Light is the measure against which the shades of Darkness compare. Yet his Legions outweight those of Heavens, and the souls they keep are far more numerous then his counterparts. He knows he must keep his armies weak, rife with infighting, paranoid, mistrustful and enslaved to maintain the War. Yet if something ever happened to God, or the Son of God, or the Legions of Light, he himself would fade to nothingness. He NEEDS them. Maybe God is a big Lilim? Lucifer knows that Mankind no longer needs them. He alone maintains the furvor of the War. It is his Selfish Greed which keep the Celestial realms from going the way of the Ethereal, and to be replaced by something grander, science. Weird. I need food.] - - Em, wacked out on too much stuff today. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 14:13:56 From: Jeff Miller Subject: Re: IN> just a thought At 10:28 PM 9/23/97 -0500, you wrote: >> Perhaps they literaly meant, "he was never an ANGLE". . . or am I just being >> obtuse? > >That's acute comment, and I think you may be on the right angle. > >Exit stage left dodging veggies. > >> Speaks > I'm suprised you had courage to sin that. >Oops da Ogre, it all depends on the degree of the pun >mudgb4@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu > Then *you* even cosined it! I better stop before I go off onto too much of a tangent. Jeff Miller Program Director/Webmaster for Agamemcon II Burbank Airport Hilton -- May 22-24, 1998 Contact Info: 24161-H Hollyoak (714)643-8352 Laguna Hills, CA 92656 www.primenet.com/~shadocat/agamemcon.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 18:43:24 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> just a thought At 10:56 PM -0400 9/23/97, speaks@mindspring.com wrote: >At 01:41 PM 9/23/97 -0400, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >>At 11:32 AM -0400 9/23/97, Chuck Ryan wrote: >>>Emily K. Dresner wrote: >>[...] >>>First Saminga didn't fall he never was an angle >> >>[Official continuity, he "was one of the first angels, small and frail, >>formed when the Symphony was still tuning up." (p. 19) Of course, if >>you're not using official continuity.... ] > > >Perhaps they literaly meant, "he was never an ANGLE". . . or am I just being >obtuse? Ahhhh, cute. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 18:32:54 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> A thought - opinions wanted > >Yeah...(strange quoting method you've got, there. > > not my fault... i do all of this from a 286 with dos 5.0... that leaves > exactly one ppp client i can use, which quotes like it does... Oh, ugg. Not really a problem, just weird. > >Okay, here's my whole take on it: Almost every ethereal has a Word > >- themselves. They thrive when people believe in them, and wither > > >Yahweh found that you could have a Word other than yourself, and > >that by doing so, you bypassed the necessity for human belief. > > that works very well... i think i shall steal... err... draw inspiration > from it... Hey, steal all you want - I can't get money from it anyway, since it's a derivative work. Just credit me somewhere if you put it on the internet (and feel free to put a mail-to link in - I like email...) > >Oh, me too. I just don't see giving him that much power, because > >then beating him would be almost impossible. > > i don't think that it is really all that much power... no one *has* to > do things according to the Symphony (that's what Dissonance is all > about, really), even though they are encouraged to... but, more > importantly, it seems like Free Will is important to the proper flow of > Essence, so God was unable to do anything about that, leaving room for a > lot of alternate ideas and viewpoints... since He had to allow for Free > Will, He was unable to create a completely controlled situation (though > He did stack the deck quite a bit)... Okay, I see. So he can write the past, but he can't stop the future from being variable. You probably want to make his rewriting of the Symphony a *really* hard thing to do, so that if God goes to do it again, it's going to be major, and something that can be stopped by the PCs. > >> and, also, the Ethereals (some of them, anyway) know parts of the > >> Truth... > >Of course. Satan knows, too, but no angels believe him (Thinking he > >is a Balseraph. In truth, he never was an angel...maybe.) > > i prefer Satan as "the First Angel, loved once above all others"... i > think that he does know the True truth (and so, probably, do the > Seraphim), but it is in everyone's best interests right now to keep it > all under wraps... Well, I'm looking at it one of two ways. One is that Enki was a vessel of Lucifer, and his rebellion included the nam-shub. The other is that Lucifer was a human like Yahweh, one who had gained True Will (in the form of two Celestial forces). But that gets a lot into the origin of God, too... > in fact, knowledge of the past may be the primary reason for Dominic's > Inquisition... Or looking for angels with enough will to act on that knowledge. After all, a lot of AA's have histories that place them near the beginning. Maybe that's why he bugs Micheal, Gabby, and Eli so much; they are the only entities that are both truely seperate from God (I see lots of AAs as nothing more than parts of God as a big mucking Kyriotate) and old enough to remember. > >> actually, i hadn't even considered _Snow Crash_ yet... > >Have you read it, though? > > absolutely... when it first appeared in trade paper (and since > then, as well)... I read it in about three days (interspersed with other things), went "Wow", then lent it to a friend immediately. She should be returning it this weekend, and it'll get reread. > >Ack - you have me outranked, there. I'm going with a dash of WoD, a > >larger dash of Snow Crash, flavorings of Shadowrun, and touches from > >the vague stew that constantly bubbles at the back of my head. > > that was, of course, a partial list... Of course... > i have many other sources, large and small, that all boil together > into my personal vision... i want to include some concepts from > WoD and Kult, and those are flavoring some of the things to a > certain degree, as does Nephilim... I know a bit about Kult from a White Wolf mag I got that had some cross-over stuff entitled "The Jail of Night". It looked interesting, but not what I'm looking for; I am going more for an evolutionary feel, instead of a creationistic feel. There's some things I might play with. Haven't had contact with Nephilim, though - is it worth much in it's own right? > GURPS Voodoo's Manicheistic perspective will always flavor > anything i do that involves monotheism (Kult and Voodoo are > amazing attempts at "corrupted world" theology, and rise far above > most gaming material... there are several modern games, including > In Nomine, which rise above, actually)... But of course. Voodoo is a good source, yes. I can't say I like a subjective universe much, which it comes across as, a little. Lots of good stuff about spirits, though... > one thing, though, that is not influencing me much at all is Changeling, > which is an awful vision of Faerie, imh(bda)o... Haven't read it - the furthest I got is Wraith. > >> that one came from wondering about the nature of > >> Falling... i have a hard time getting emotionally behind the > >> "removed from God's Grace" explanation... > >It's kinda hokey, but I like it, in a way. > > it's not that it's hokey, really... it may be a case wherein my own > (very polytheistic) beliefs just don't jibe with it... i can understand > it, intellectually, but emotionally it just doesn't work at all for > me... I didn't quite explain it - meant to, got sidetracked. Anyway - as I was saying...God created the Angels because he didn't want to make himself bigger - he figured he's just make them automatically subservient to him. He didn't realize that things don't work that way - anything with Celestial Forces has free will that can't be removed by any means. All he did was screw them up enough that when they left Heaven, they were kinda screwy. Lucifer's working on that one... > fits my vision, anyway... i like things dark... not so dark as, say, > Kult (though even there, there is quite the ray of light, if you know > where to look), but pretty darn dark... I tend to prefer gritty over dark, personally - it leaves a lot more room for ambiguity. For instance, the ideas I am pushing here are mostly Satan's side of things - there's enough wiggle room to see God as a tough-but-good guy who's made some mistakes in the past, but who is trying to help things, now. So neither side is really sure... Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com "Beware the advise of successful people; they do not seek company." - Dogbert ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 19:01:30 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> The Marches: Errata and questions At 10:04 AM -0400 9/24/97, IQJason@aol.com wrote: >And, since the subject line's appropriate...is the statement that Lilith >might owe a favor or two to Hatiphas to be read as such, or the other way >'round; isn't it usually Lilith that offers the assistance? Lilith sometimes gets people to do her favors. Some Lilim might find their Mother telling them to do some stuff to help Hatiphas in her schemes, somewhere down the line. What kind of sorcerer *are* you, if you don't want to summon up a succubus, anyway? (Green, female, horns, naked and cute. Looks like a succubus to ME!) The other question is: what did Hati do for *Lilith*? - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 19:05:49 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Hello + Quick Question About Shedim At 11:39 PM -0700 9/23/97, Chris Eng wrote: >Hullo, I'm new to the list and just thought I'd announce my presence. So, >"Hi." Howdy! >And also I have a question about the Shedim. I hope they haven't been >asked before. I have been going through all of the digests but there's >over 350 of them (!) and it's pretty slow going. Anyway, here it is: While >posessing a corpse, do Shedim of Saminga get dissonance for not making the >corpse do bad things, or how does that work? Ah. No, no, they don't need to corrupt the corpse. It's corrupting quite well on its own (note the Pallid Discord...). >Chris Eng (Any relation to Cecilia Eng, filksinger?) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 19:03:40 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> The Marches: Errata and questions At 8:09 AM -0400 9/24/97, Jens H. Kruuse wrote: >I believe I've found a couple of mistakes in The Marches: > >p.27: The character Jahaz should have the Mercurian of Fine Attunement. >p.27: Aluriel and Mordecai should have the Cherub of Destiny Attunement. >p.48: Sergei Roskovich should have the Calabite of Fire Attunement. > Also, he is not a valid starting character. It appears that he has > received 9 points for his mandatory Calabite Discord as well as 2 points > for his vessel-specific negative charisma (I believe it should be only > one point). He gets the Calabite Discord. (That's in a mild state of flux, but I believe the last decision was that they get it. The FAQ needs fixing.) And he gets 2 points for negative charisma, yes. p. 49, in the stuff near the top of the first column. >Questions for Archangel Beth: > >p.46: Call of the Dancing Flame > "Make an opposed roll between the Demon's Celestial Forces and the > Will of the target. The check digit x 2 ...". > What's an opposed roll? And which check digit if it is a contest? An opposed roll means that it's a contest. The demon rolls Celestial Forces [], the human rolls Will []. Use the demon's check digit, if he wins the contest. The 666 roll applies to either. >p.46: Blackdraft > "... and lasts as long as a Celestial Forces roll's check digit x > 2, or until the demon releases it." > Most attunements are free and work automatically, this one is expensive > and requires a roll against Celestial Forces, which is hard. Shouldn't > it read "... and lasts for Celestial Forces x 2 ..."? Is it seconds, > combat rounds, or minutes? (I would think rounds). Rounds. I'd errata it to a Will roll. It's a good alternative to Firewalker for demons of Fire who don't want to be obvious about their immunity -- and a good way for a demon with Firewalker to lure someone into a nasty trap! >I hope you can help me, Hope I've been helpful. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 19:08:52 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Janus, Valefor, and ...?! At 4:40 AM -0400 9/24/97, Thomas Davidson wrote: >On Tue, 23 Sep 1997, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >> At 1:11 PM -0400 9/23/97, Thomas Davidson wrote: >> [Ethereals as "reflections" of celestials, as seen by humans] >> >Sorry, I'll be good now. :-) >> >> Oh, why? That's no fun! > >Because it was after I had written that that I realized that probably no >one cared about what I had to say about something non-IN. We're changing >the Judaic/Christian/Islamic myths anyway, so why not add Asatru/Norse >myths, Greek, Celtic/Gaelic, etc. (I really must stop reading mythology) >:) Bah. What's wrong with getting the Ethereals right? [...] >> >That word (Word?) was usually associated with Tyr or Odin. >> >> Hmmmm..... Yeah, well, can't trust those humans to get anything right, >> huh? > >Well, in IN, that's almost a given.... isn't it? So it would seem... >But what if there's a group of humans who knows -- or perhaps suspects -- >the truth about the Symphony? Maybe God *did* rewrite the Symphony "in >His own image", casting Himself as Creator of all things; where He is the >Omniscient, Omnipotent, and Omnipresent; He is the Alpha and the Omega. Hrm..... Maybe they're the ones who corrupted the Grigori? >> >Thomas Davidson, who spent *way* too much time reading the Norse Myths as >> >a child. :) >> Naaaahhhh. >I suspected not myself. Heck the Norse myths are better than any comic >book -- and less boring than some "fantasies". But that's just me. No, it's not! I like 'em lots, too! [scribbles down stuff] >And if you think I'm weird about this, try alt.religion.asatru... they >take the Norse Myths *very* seriously. Ah, I think I'll avoid that... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 19:27:18 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Demon of Duelling At 8:51 AM -0400 9/24/97, Chuck Ryan wrote: >David Edelstein wrote: > >> Note: Baal's Word is "the War", not "War". >> >> -David > > were did this come from I just got The Marches yesterday and it >specifically states " Michael and baal also share a word of course" on >page 19 Check the &^%#$@ errata. They do not share a Word. Baal is "the War," Michael is War. Says so right on their pages in the main book. That is probably all that saves them from the same madness that afflicts Gabriel and (to a less-obvious extent) Belial. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 19:34:17 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> just a thought At 4:31 PM -0400 9/24/97, Walter Milliken wrote: >> Oooh...I don't like Jean AT ALL. [...] >I don't see Jean as *quite* that restrictive. Yes, he doesn't dispense >celestial tech to humans, but he also doesn't impede humans' progress >*on their own*. After all, inspiration is one of the aspects of his >Word. > >I see his servitors as encouraging human innovation in beneficial areas, >but not handing out answers to specific problems, They're the person who takes down books, looks at them, and puts them back just a little crooked so you can follow what they were thinking of -- if you work at it. They're the ones who ask you a little question that starts the cascade of facts in your head. They're the ones calmly walking away while someone shouts EUREKA! behind them... And sometimes they're the ^%$#^% angels in the Marches who give me some great idea *WAAAAAY* too early in the morning and I can't get back to sleep till I've written it down. I also blame Gaby and Eli for that. Obnoxious trio. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 18:57:22 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> A thought - opinions wanted > >Yahweh found that you could have a Word other than yourself, and that > >by doing so, you bypassed the necessity for human belief. He looked > >around, and then took the biggest word he could see - Conflict. Not > >just arguements - any conflict gives him some power. Computer games, > >infection, even evolution gives him some power. > > So you're saying God is a Shadow?? (Ala B5) How horrifying. Yet another reference missed thanks to no cable. RRRGH! Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com "Beware the advise of successful people; they do not seek company." - Dogbert ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 19:36:48 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Reading Material/Resources: At 4:22 PM -0400 9/24/97, Highway Star wrote: >According to Shadowcat: >> >> Check out ArchBeths conversion of Iou to In Nomine. > >I have that on print out from when I first got the game in >June; I'm assuming that it hasn't changed much since then, but >I'll hit her web page this week and make sure. Remind me to send you one set of conversions for the characters. I've got it in text format on the downstairs computer. >I'm making extensive changes in her conversion, though, to keep >it more like I want it - Good. Seen the Ah My Goddess-IOU stuff on my fiction pages? (http://www.io.com/~arcangel/GamingWarStories/GamingWarStories.html) >not denigrating her work, obviously, >as I'm very impressed with it. (We have a "University Union" >here and I keep making "University Confederacy" jokes about it >- ripped off from IOU, I'm afraid ). Also good. Hey, tell me what happens in private email, pleaseplease?? - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 16:42:47 -0700 (PDT) From: nightgaunt@earthlink.net (Alexander Shearer) Subject: Re: IN> A thought - opinions wanted >Well, I'm looking at it one of two ways. One is that Enki was a >vessel of Lucifer, and his rebellion included the nam-shub. The >other is that Lucifer was a human like Yahweh, one who had gained >True Will (in the form of two Celestial forces). But that gets a lot >into the origin of God, too... Some random reponse time: First, I recommend reading some Mesopotamian stuff outside of Snow Crash (a truly good novel) before committing Enki like this. Enki/Ea is, in general, a real badass as far as Sumerian/Babylonian gods go. He was a key player in the origin of people, and generally is the guy everyone turns to for help. The nam-shub thing is a fun idea, but it really is something that Stephenson took and ran with for his story. Mind you, it's still a worthwhile game idea, I just have to take a moment to promote my second favorite Babylonian deity. :) >> one thing, though, that is not influencing me much at all is Changeling, >> which is an awful vision of Faerie, imh(bda)o... > >Haven't read it - the furthest I got is Wraith. Changeling is...bleah. Of course, most of the WoD games are problematic (even if I did play Vampire for years). Alexander Shearer nightgaunt@earthlink.net gaunt@uclink4.berkeley.edu gir gissinig kisib tibir-ke e-ne su-tag-ga mu-un-ku ina pa-tar bi-ni rit-ti qur-qur-ri il-pu-tu-su nu-uk-ki-is (Cut the wrists of the smiths who touched him with a tamarisk knife!) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 10:25:07 +1000 From: Anthony Baxter Subject: Re: IN> Typical adventures - newbie Q's >>> Elizabeth McCoy wrote > PCs can be demons. Having a mixed group is hard. Some of the PCs > will have to be pariahs from their respective species. I like > Renegade Demons, myself. Running a mixed group for any length of time seems like it wouldn't work - for one off adventures it might, but after that Asmodeus and Dominic are going to come down hard on anyone consorting with "the other side" for any length of time. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 21:00:42 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Typical adventures - newbie Q's At 10:25 AM +1000 9/25/97, Anthony Baxter wrote: >>>> Elizabeth McCoy wrote >> PCs can be demons. Having a mixed group is hard. Some of the PCs >> will have to be pariahs from their respective species. I like >> Renegade Demons, myself. > >Running a mixed group for any length of time seems like it wouldn't >work - for one off adventures it might, but after that Asmodeus and >Dominic are going to come down hard on anyone consorting with "the other >side" for any length of time. Of course, there's always the triad-Game teams, who go around smiting foolish angels and demons who consort with each other too much... (Yes, it's very hard to manage a mixed group. You can have one, maybe two, other-species outcasts/renegades, but they're probably going to be slipping towards the alignment of the rest of the group. The trick is to make the trip interesting.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 20:54:01 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> A thought - opinions wanted > >Well, I'm looking at it one of two ways. One is that Enki was a > >vessel of Lucifer, and his rebellion included the nam-shub. The > >other is that Lucifer was a human like Yahweh, one who had gained > >True Will (in the form of two Celestial forces). But that gets a lot > >into the origin of God, too... > > Some random reponse time: First, I recommend reading some > Mesopotamian stuff outside of Snow Crash (a truly good novel) > before committing Enki like this. Well, maybe. For the most part, any research I do for this will be kinda lost, because none of my players know enough about Babylonian history for it to make any difference. And I'm running out of time in the day... If you have any conviniet URLs or files you want to send me, though, I'll definately read them. > Enki/Ea is, in general, a real badass as far as Sumerian/ > Babylonian gods go. He was a key player in the origin of people, > and generally is the guy everyone turns to for help. The nam-shub > thing is a fun idea, but it really is something that Stephenson > took and ran with for his story. Well, there is that. But it's such a damned cool idea, and one that fits so well into In Nomine (IMO, anyway). > Mind you, it's still a worthwhile game idea, I just have to take a > moment to promote my second favorite Babylonian deity. :) Not a problem. If you've got any more info you want to share, feel free, by all means. > >> one thing, though, that is not influencing me much at all is > >> Changeling, which is an awful vision of Faerie, imh(bda)o... > > > >Haven't read it - the furthest I got is Wraith. > > Changeling is...bleah. Of course, most of the WoD games are > problematic (even if I did play Vampire for years). In their base forms, yeah. But grind heavily in a mortar, apply seasoning, and they can be good. > gir gissinig kisib tibir-ke e-ne su-tag-ga mu-un-ku > ina pa-tar bi-ni rit-ti qur-qur-ri il-pu-tu-su nu-uk-ki-is > > (Cut the wrists of the smiths who touched him with a tamarisk knife!) Hey, buddy, no nam-shub on the list! Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com "Beware the advise of successful people; they do not seek company." - Dogbert ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 18:15:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Knop Subject: Re: IN> just a thought > Remember Jean is an Elohite, and takes the long view of things. I see > his goal as encouraging humans to invent things on their own, not to > hand out neat tech. Yes, this hurts people (by not helping them *now*), > but this is what I'd consider a typical Elohite viewpoint. I would agree with this -- with the addition that he wants to stop the handing out of tech by Vapula. (Particularly since Vapula's technology tends to be not just too soon, but nasty stuff.) In fact, servants of Jean probably spend a lot of time scurrying around to do just that. - -Rob === Rob Knop === rknop@crl.com ==== http://www.wco.com/~rknop === Amiga PGP information at http://www.wco.com/~rknop/amiga_pgp Visit the Dramatic Exchange at http://www.dramex.org/ ================================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 18:54:15 -0700 From: "Chris Eng" Subject: IN> Devil's Advocate (Slightly Off Topic) Just saw an ad on TV for the new movie, "Devil's Advocate," starring al Pacino as Satan and Keanu Reeves as the Official Opposition (Canadian joke). Is that the best God can do? Man, we're doomed to darkness for sure. (Opens October 17) Chris Eng, Impudite Servant of Nybbas ("What would I do without my TV and my computer? Bad thought! Bad thought!") ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 12:36:47 +1000 From: Jason Mulligan Subject: Re: IN> Typical adventures - newbie Q's Gregory Littmann wrote: > > That is a problem sometimes. Games start to merge and just feel the same > > with some differing trappings. > > My biggest fear for In Nomine is exactly this. But we will see. Well, I just got my copy and have had a bit of a skim through it and here are my initial thoughts. In a word, a bit dissapointed in part but overall it's OK. Firstly, the artwork. I don't like the sty;e generally at all. Maybe it's just I am used to buying books with art from people like Larry Elmore, Jeff Easly, Angus McBride, Boris Vellejo, etc. In Nomine's art is more like comic-book art (not that I mind comic-book art per se, it's just not what I was expecting). Another thing was how the Archangels have been detailed/presented, I sortof expected there to be much more detail on their histories. And then there is the overall feel I get, that the came could degenerate into Vampire: the Masquarade with different trappings quite easily. There was a bit less campaign material in it then I expected too, but I guess thats what the sourcebooks are for. Part of my dissapointment may be caused by me buying it sight unseen (I had to get it via mailorder). - -- Jason Mulligan "The path of my life is strewn with cowpats from the devil's own satanic herd!" - Edmund Blackadder ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 22:56:05 -0500 From: Colin Fredericks Subject: IN> Angel of alcohol Hail. Perhaps this comes of living at college, but you eventually get infected by society's concentration on alcohol. Naturally, there are probably servitors of both Kobal, Malphas, and Haagenti out there who would hold words of Total Drunks, Drunken Violence, and Binge Drinking, if not actually having Alcohol as a word themselves. I realize that this is yet another angel who's had contact with Eli, which I'm starting to get sick of, but the ability to turn water into wine just fit so well that I had to put it in. Have fun with this dude. Stay Cool; -Sir Colin Barimen, Angel of Alcohol Mercurian Master of Stone Corporeal Forces - 4 Strength 9 Agility 7 Ethereal Forces - 3 Intelligence 7 Precision 5 Celestial Forces - 5 Will 11 Perception 9 Vessels: Human Man/3 (Charisma +1), Human Woman/3 (Charisma +1), both in their early 20's. He also has two vessels which are senior citizens: a Man/1 and Woman/1. After all, wine and conjac get better with age. Songs: Healing (Corporeal/3, Ethereal/6), Charm (Etherial/5, Celestial/4), Tongues(Corp/4) Skills: Chemistry/4, Computer Operation/1, Brawl/6, Emote/6, Languages (English/3, French/3, German/3), Medicine/2, Savoir-Faire/4, Singing/1 Attunements: Mercurian of Stone, Transubstantiation, Ofanite of Stone, and that see-through-stone ability whose name escapes me at the moment. Special Rites: Bringing the beer to the party (over $100 worth), sharing some form of alcohol at a significant moment (such as a marriage or pouring wine over a grave at a funeral). Barimen is an old angel, and he hasn't changed all that much in his thousands of years. Traditions involving alcohol change very little, and Barimen is after all Word-bound. His power isn't as great as it might be, because of all the other angels and demons borrowing pieces of his Word. As a result of slighly overlaping Words, Barimen does sometimes fall into the worse aspects of drinking. He's not someone to be around if you expect someone to be perfectly stable at all times. He is, however, a very trustworthy person. He is always glad to listen or lend advice. It's just that rarely (roll d666 every day against his Will), he goes a bit off the deep end. The check digit would determine how far he goes - a 1 would make him tipsy, a 6 would put him under or get him very violent. With all the parties he's put on and been to, some people consider his contact with Eli to have been inevitable. In fact, it wasn't at a party that they met, but over the grave of Raphael. Barimen was lamenting the lack of a good bottle of wine to pour on Raphael's grave, and Eli had just the remedy. David didn't complain - that particular ability just made his servitor more able to bring humans together. Barimen has the tendency to be a ubiquitous presence, always showing up when you most or least expect him. His best friends are a Tabitha, the angel of vineyards (a servitor of Novalis), Bruce, angel of microbrews (a servitor of Eli under Barimen's own supervision), and Deneg, a Soldier of Marc (an angel cannot live on booze alone). Barimen is generally on bad terms with more serious-minded angels, but Dominic has no problems with him: Barimen's Word itself keeps him in line. Even if he has an off day, he'll be back to his angelic self after the hangover. Dom still keeps a Soldier watching Barimen most days, out of suspicious habit. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #357 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.