From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Sep 25 09:43:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA14293 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 09:43:03 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id IAA30692 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 08:30:06 -0500 Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 08:30:06 -0500 Message-Id: <199709251330.IAA30692@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #358 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, September 25 1997 Volume 01 : Number 358 In this digest: Re: IN> Reading Material/Resources: IN> House Rules Re: IN> Typical adventures - newbie Q's Re: IN> House Rules Re: IN> House Rules Re: IN> Reading Material/Resources: Re: IN> Typical adventures - newbie Q's Re: IN> Hello + Quick Question About Shedim IN> "War" vs. "the War" IN> question re Saints IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #357 IN> Angel of Housewives (Long) IN> Demon of The Commons Re: IN> Janus, Valefor, and ...?! Re: IN> A thought - opinions wanted IN> Re: IN A thought - opinions wanted Re: IN> Devil's Advocate (Slightly Off Topic) Re: IN> Reading Material/Resources: IN> Needing Light for Darkness ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 23:59:51 -0400 (EDT) From: CeIestiaI7@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Reading Material/Resources: Any good (non-RPG) online sources? Picking up a *book* sounds like so much work. Frankly rolling dice has me breaking in out in a sweat lately ;) S.A. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 23:57:10 -0400 (EDT) From: CeIestiaI7@aol.com Subject: IN> House Rules Howdy all. I've GM'd my first two sessions of In Nomine now and have hit a few walls. Now I like a simple system, and I think this system is as simple as it gets. I am however wondering if anyone has a few house rules that help out the fell of combat. What I'm looking for in particualr are initiative rules and more realistic firearms damage. I've tried using an agility roll, and going with the highest Check Digit+Corp Forces for initiative. I had mixed results. The problem I had with firearms damage is that vs. a normal human, a .44 revolver barely makes the grade ("normal human" being 2 Corp Forces, 3-4 Str, 15-20 hits). Tell me what works for you. I'm interested in other house rules as well. S.A. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 23:24:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Gregory Littmann Subject: Re: IN> Typical adventures - newbie Q's On Wed, 24 Sep 1997, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > At 9:27 AM +1000 9/24/97, Jason Mulligan wrote: > >Gregory Littmann wrote: > >I was just wondering whether the game was built around actual conflicts (ie > >lots of actual combat) or not. > For the record, Greg Littmann didn't write this. I was answering the original mail. Greg (who knows). ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 23:42:16 -0500 (CDT) From: Donald G Bixler Subject: Re: IN> House Rules > I've GM'd my first two sessions of In Nomine now and have hit a few > walls. Now I like a simple system, and I think this system is as simple as > it gets. I am however wondering if anyone has a few house rules that help > out the fell of combat. What I'm looking for in particualr are initiative > rules and more realistic firearms damage. Well, the system for initiative is there is no initiative system. With the exception of Ofanim of War, all attacks are assumed to be simultaneous. As far as firearms go, I can't help, although there were many suggestions in the early days of the list. You may want to dig through the digest archives. > S.A. Oops da Ogre, has only GM'd one fight and that was over very quickly... mudgb4@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 01:06:54 -0500 From: Colin Fredericks Subject: Re: IN> House Rules CeIestiaI7@aol.com wrote: >with firearms damage is that vs. a normal human, a .44 revolver barely makes >the grade ("normal human" being 2 Corp Forces, 3-4 Str, 15-20 hits). Hooray for Vessel errata. Humans don't have a Vessel level, so their Body hits are just Corp times Strength, or using your example, 6-8 hits. They can buy "toughness" which acts as a vessel level. Same with Soldiers .44's more than make the grade against normals. When fighting against angels, though, the tables swing a lot. You might want to check the official on-line errata to make sure I got that right. I think it's described in Night Music too, but the online will be easier to find. Stay Cool; -Sir Colin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 00:56:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Hobbes Subject: Re: IN> Reading Material/Resources: According to Elizabeth McCoy: > >not denigrating her work, obviously, > >as I'm very impressed with it. (We have a "University Union" > >here and I keep making "University Confederacy" jokes about it > >- ripped off from IOU, I'm afraid ). > > Also good. Hey, tell me what happens in private email, pleaseplease?? Although I try to avoid Seanmike's posts unless he tells me it's okay, I've been following the reading list thread. I can prolly tell you what'll happen: We have: Malakite of Eli serving Michael, Cherub of Laurence, Mercurian of Dominic, and Ofanite of Yves. Knowing the players, the Malakite will be completely tactless and try to start a fight with everything it thinks it can hit without generating dissonance. The Cherub will attune to random stuff that catches his attention while hunting with the Malakite. The Ofanite will suffer a nervous breakdown while helping people reach their destinies because he has the Ofanite twitchiness without the patience to work for Yves. I, as the aforementioned Mercurian, will die in twisted mess of a crossfire started by the Cherub and/or Malakite. Hope I get a good funeral :). Dan Oz - who only smoked cloves occasionally and has since quit. - -- Don't blame me, I voted for Sgarlata. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 23:53:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Gregory Littmann Subject: Re: IN> Typical adventures - newbie Q's > > > > That is a problem sometimes. Games start to merge and just feel the same > > > with some differing trappings. > > > > My biggest fear for In Nomine is exactly this. But we will see. > > Well, I just got my copy and have had a bit of a skim through it and here > are my initial thoughts. In a word, a bit dissapointed in part but overall > it's OK. Firstly, the artwork. I don't like the sty;e generally at all. > Maybe it's just I am used to buying books with art from people like Larry > Elmore, Jeff Easly, Angus McBride, Boris Vellejo, etc. In Nomine's art is > more like comic-book art (not that I mind comic-book art per se, it's just > not what I was expecting). You are not the first person to say this. Personally, I think Dan Smith's In Nomine art works better in the supplments. The fact that supplement pictures are in black and white removes much of the "comic book" feel. > Another thing was how the Archangels have been > detailed/presented, I sortof expected there to be much more detail on their > histories. The game includes an awful lot of superiors at the expense of providing much depth for each. This is unfortunate, especially for a game that needs to sell itself by seducing the reader with setting, but may have been unavoidable. I don't know if you could get the politics of Heaven and Hell across without including all the really *big* superiors. > And then there is the overall feel I get, that the came could > degenerate into Vampire: the Masquarade with different trappings quite > easily. It is a real danger. Probably the best way to stress the difference (in my own, highly subjective opinion), is to highlight the selflessness and moral fanatacism of Angels. > There was a bit less campaign material in it then I expected too, > but I guess thats what the sourcebooks are for. Again, a huge shame, but perhaps unavoidable. I wonder sometimes whether it would not have been better to release In Nomine as two seperate games, as was done with the French version. On the other hand, it would be pretty hard to run much of an In Nomine campaign without details of both sides of the war... > Greg. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 09:30:55 -0400 From: johnk@ascc01.ascc.lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) Subject: Re: IN> Hello + Quick Question About Shedim On Sep 23, 11:39pm, Chris Eng wrote: > Subject: IN> Hello + Quick Question About Shedim > Hullo, I'm new to the list and just thought I'd announce my presence. So, > "Hi." Hiya! > And also I have a question about the Shedim. I hope they haven't been > asked before. I have been going through all of the digests but there's > over 350 of them (!) and it's pretty slow going. Anyway, here it is: While > posessing a corpse, do Shedim of Saminga get dissonance for not making the > corpse do bad things, or how does that work? The corpse has no 'nature' to corrupt, so the Shedim is not bound by the usual restriction. (Since Saminga is a Shedim himself, maybe he was just being kind to 'his boys'.) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 01:46:07 -0400 From: Stacy Stroud Subject: IN> "War" vs. "the War" Quoth Archbeth: > Check the &^%#$@ errata. They do not share a Word. Baal is "the War," > Michael is War. Says so right on their pages in the main book. > That is probably all that saves them from the same madness that > afflicts Gabriel and (to a less-obvious extent) Belial. OK, so what is the operative difference between "War" and "the War"? I would *guess* that Baal's Word refers more specifically to the Heaven/Hell conflict, while Michael's is broader . . . but their overall descriptions do not seem to bear that out. In fact, with the caveat that (unlike some of us here) I tend to view angels as relatively "good" and demons as relatively "evil," the situation would almost seem to make more sense reversed: Baal promotes armed conflict in general, including among humans, while Michael focuses more on *the* War, the one being fought against Hell. I'm sure Michael and Baal will get their expanded writeups soon, but is there anything you could share to clarify this point? (I recall earlier drafts of the game which suggested a difference I rather liked. Michael's Word, translated literally from Angelic, was said to be "War and Healing," implying the promotion of war as a way of *ending* disputes and paving the way for peace and reconciliation. Baal's Word, OTOH, was cited as "War and Treaties," implying the promotion of continual conflict that "ends" only temporarily, and paves the way for new and expanded conflicts in the very act of seeming to end. Is anything of that distinction still being retained in the current conception of the two characters?) Stacy Stroud sstroud@uky.campus.mci.net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 16:24:34 +1000 From: jumpshot@iniaccess.net.au (Karen J Davies) Subject: IN> question re Saints Having at last got a copy of Night Music I have quickly perused the section I was hanging out on the most, Saints. I have a question, on p14 it tells how saints, if returning to Corperality, are reborn as infants and "remember" their nature at some time later on. COuld an ANgel help this re-awkening or must it happen naturally? My main question is in regard to the saints "vessel". If they were born human, why do they have a vessel = to CF? Why even mention a ROle if they are human in body? Do they still have to eat etc unlike celestial's vessels? Do they age naturally like mortals and die, to return to heaven and possibly return back and if so, do they keep all earned skills, Songs, attunements etc gained? Can somebody help here? Sabbatt ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 00:01:24 -0700 From: "Chris Eng" Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #357 > At 11:39 PM -0700 9/23/97, Chris Eng wrote: > > >And also I have a question about the Shedim. While > >posessing a corpse, do Shedim of Saminga get dissonance for not making the > >corpse do bad things, or how does that work? > > Ah. > No, no, they don't need to corrupt the corpse. It's corrupting quite > well on its own (note the Pallid Discord...). Oops. Didn't mean to make myself seem stupid. It just seemed interesting to me that by serving Saminga they aren't bound by their band's rules of dissonance. Neat loophole, I suppose. Still, don't want to encourage that kind of behavior in the Shedim or else they might get slack and not encourage ANYONE to be corrupt, and then, then - I ask you - where would Hell be? Chris Eng > (Any relation to Cecilia Eng, filksinger?) Nope, but I can filk with the best of 'em. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 00:11:35 -0700 From: "Chris Eng" Subject: IN> Angel of Housewives (Long) Just an idea, that was mullin' and creepin' and crawlin' around in my head and I liked it, so I worked it out. It's not perfect, but let me know what you think. Suzanne Angel of Housewives Cherub Friend of Fire "Leave the lady alone." The lout, rather on the largish side, looked up at the comment. He'd been previously preoccupied with disciplining his wife, whom he'd just discovered was having an dalliance with one of his business partners (which he thought he'd deal with later - pleasure before business), but now he'd been interrupted by what - a woman in a housecoat and slippers? And in his office after business hours? He could have sworn he'd locked the door. He didn't have the time or energy to deal with her. He'd let this one off with a warning. "Get out of here! This isn't any of your business!" "On the other hand," replied the woman with an even tone, as she pulled a .45 out of the pockets of the dressing gown, "this might be entirely my business." The room darkened a bit before she spoke again. "Let the lady go." The lout froze and lost his grip on his wife, who remained sitting quietly on the floor, her gaze shifting back and forth between the participants. "It's okay," the woman reassured Kathy, her gaze never wavering from the lout. "It's all okay, now." She extended her hand. "Come on," she urged. "It's going to be all right." The wife shot a look at her husband and scrambled ungracefully to her feet, taking the woman's hand and using it as a brace. The woman wrapped her arm around the beleaguered wife. "It's all right ..... I'm sorry, it's Kathy, isn't it?" The wife, nodding robotically, looked up at her savior who, just for a second, seemed bathed in light. "Hi, Kathy. I'm Suzanne. Oops. Your cheek is starting to bruise, we should get some ice on that. I know a place we can go to where you'll be okay, but we should go now." The lout finally snapped out of it. Gun or no gun, he wasn't going to let himself get pushed around by a damn bag lady. She wouldn't have the guts to pull the trigger anyway. They were halfway to the door before he got anything out. "Hey! Where do you think you're going, you fucking bitch?!" Suzanne made a slow turn. "Oh yes. I'd almost forgotten about you. Well, that's not exactly true. I was just hoping mainly that you would keep shut so I could leave without a fuss. Still, one must take their pleasures where they can get them." She raised the .45 to shoulder level and looked down the barrel at him. "Tell me though, are you sorry for what you did - you self-serving, absusive, cro-magnon piece of shite?" The lout fell to his knees and blanched. "Yes, I'm so sorry, I am so sorry, Kathy I'm sorry, I'm sorry, just come back to me, Oh God I'm sorry!" "No you're not, and never call on Him again." And there was a flash as bright as Heaven. Corporeal Forces - 4 (Strength - 9, Agility 7) Ethereal Forces - 4 (Intelligence - 10, Precision - 6) Celestial Forces - 5 (Will - 9, Perception - 11) Vessels: Human/3 (adult female) Skills: Corporeal Fighting/3, Ranged Weapon/3 (Pistol), Celestial Fighting/4, Detect Lies/3 Songs: Numinous Corpus - Wings/6, Song of Form (Ethereal/6), Song of Harmony (Ethereal/2) Attunements: Cherub of Blandine, Friend of Fire, Dream Walking, Smite Artifacts: Colt .45 containing Song of Light (Celestial/5) Special Rites: Spending an hour increasing a housewife's sense of self-worth. (+1) Suzanne both loves and hates her job. There are no other people that she would rather be close to and caring for than housewives, but it makes her infinitely sad that they are one of the most underappreciated and abused classes of people on the planet. In fact it fills her with so much rage, that she's forced to vent on almost a daily basis - and that, she thinks, isn't too bad. There are worse things that she could be doing with her time. Suzanne's come a long way since being a servitor of Blandine, visiting housewives every night on the Marches - ensuring they had good dreams. She wasn't unhappy doing that either, but it gave her an immense feeling of helplessness. She could make their dreams better, but it was just a quick fix, not a cure for the problem. Over time she had a couple of discussions with servitors of Gabriel and eventually got an audience with the Archangel herself. Suzanne was convinced. Gabriel had assured her that by switching allegiances she would given the authority to be the remedy and not the band-aid. The only problem was what to do about Blandine. The simplest solution was not tell her. Suzanne took her heart one day and quietly moved it to the Citadel of Fire. Blandine was shocked and outraged to say the least, but she had seen it coming for a while - Suzanne is short on subtlety - and she wasn't going to start a war over it. Blandine just sent the word out to her servitors that appropriate steps were to be taken if Suzanne was ever caught in the Marches. The whole incident just basically reaffirmed her opinions about the rest of the Archangels. Suzanne spends most of her time on Earth, hanging around and casing for possible prospects around Welfare offices and food banks. It's not that she doesn't realize that women from higher classes get abused (and if any battered wife gets brought to her attention, she'll take action), it's just that's where she's most comfortable. She spends most of her time cloaked behind the Ethereal Song of Form, preferring not to be seen (but puffing a cigarette - a peculiar affectation that she refuses to give up), but when she does go public she is generally seen in sweat suits, baggy t-shirts, or - - preferably - a housecoat and slippers. They're just comfortable. If she has to get her point across really quickly, she'll flash her wings. The first time that she went out operating under Gabriel's jurisdiction, she rescued a woman (Jessica, by name) from her drunk partner, snatching his gun away from him and pistol whipping him with it. When she tried to give it back to Jessica, later that night, Jessica refused, smiling, and thanked her, saying that she wouldn't need it anymore - she wouldn't be going back there. Suzanne, touched by the gesture, took the gun to her friend Joachim, a servant of Eli, and had him embed a Celestial Song of Light into it, transforming it into a Holy Instrument of Wrath. Gabriel expects regular reports from Suzanne, but often lets her operate with autonomy because she knows that she does a quality job with her work. When designating assignments, Gabriel often keeps her in mind for the tougher or more demanding jobs. She knows Suzanne will be able to pull through. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 00:39:06 -0700 (PDT) From: nightgaunt@earthlink.net (Alexander Shearer) Subject: IN> Demon of The Commons Here's one that came to me in Biochem lecture today (for no particular reason). As an aside: Can anyone who knows what document inspired this please remind me who the author was? Pardas Demon of The Commons Calabite Baron of Factions Corporeal Forces - 4 (Strength 9, Agility 7) Ethereal Forces - 5 (Intelligence 10, Precision 10) Celestial Forces - 4 (Will 12, Perception 8) Vessels: Human/4 (Charisma +2); Human/2; Cow/2; Sheep/1; Water Buffalo/1 Songs: Charm (Ethereal/4, Celestial/5), Entropy (Corporeal/5), Numinous Corpus (Acid/4, Claws/3) Skills: Detect Lies/4, Driving/1, Fast-Talk/4, Fighting/4 Attunements: Djinn of Factions, Calabite of Factions, Imbroglio, Polarize, Baron of Inner Torment, the Demon of The Commons Discord: Jaded/4 Special Rite: As the Demon of The Commons, Pardas regains 1 Essence simply by spending the night in a suitably neglected public area. Run down city parks and Superfund sites are old favorites. Pardas has been around for a while. Some time in the second millenium A.D., he managed to so impress Malphas with his work in making people neglect the care of public lands and property that he was promoted repeatedly. In a brief rise over only a few decades, Pardas went from a rather staid demon of factions to a real mover and shaker. When he gained his Word, Pardas was sure he had it made. After all, what force was more powerful in the world of man than that of neglect? For a while (several hundred years), Pardas lived high on the hog. Every time someone dumped an object in the ocean, his Word was strengthened. Every time some farmers drained the local water supply, he prospered. Indeed, Pardas had plans for bigger things, when he had the time. Some day, he might even expand his Word to the nearly limitless Neglect. Unfortunately, Pardas has not yet found his opportunity, and things have taken a bit of a downward turn in the past half century. Certainly, the budding environmentalist movements are no more than minor dents in Pardas' plans, but after centuries of the same old thing, his natural tendency to feel that all has been said and done already has been amplified. In this cynical complacency, Pardas seemed like the perfect target for an overthrow by his immediate servitors. The brief insurrection attempt failed, but it cost Pardas some of his Forces, and set back any plans he may have had involving Neglect. For the moment, Pardas roams the Earth in disgust and dismay, occasionally taking the time to promote his Word by direct action. More often, he simply demonstrates his Word. Most recently, Pardas has created several animal vessels so he can sit, eat, and destroy public land while he plots for the future. Alexander Shearer nightgaunt@earthlink.net gaunt@uclink4.berkeley.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 04:14:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Thomas Davidson Subject: Re: IN> Janus, Valefor, and ...?! On Wed, 24 Sep 1997, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > At 4:40 AM -0400 9/24/97, Thomas Davidson wrote: > >On Tue, 23 Sep 1997, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >> At 1:11 PM -0400 9/23/97, Thomas Davidson wrote: > >> [Ethereals as "reflections" of celestials, as seen by humans] > >Because it was after I had written that that I realized that probably no > >one cared about what I had to say about something non-IN. We're changing > >the Judaic/Christian/Islamic myths anyway, so why not add Asatru/Norse > >myths, Greek, Celtic/Gaelic, etc. (I really must stop reading mythology) > >:) > > Bah. What's wrong with getting the Ethereals right? > Nothing... nothing at all... I would (IMC) like to get at least the Norse Myths right. Some questions about who survived Uriel's Purge have prevented me from doing so. I can only hope that "Marches" will answer these questions. I don't have a copy yet, but I hope to by the end of the week. (Money, money, money. Darnit--it never seems as though Marc is on my side.... *sigh*) > [...] > >> >That word (Word?) was usually associated with Tyr or Odin. > >> > >> Hmmmm..... Yeah, well, can't trust those humans to get anything right, > >> huh? > > > >Well, in IN, that's almost a given.... isn't it? > > So it would seem... > > >But what if there's a group of humans who knows -- or perhaps suspects -- > >the truth about the Symphony? Maybe God *did* rewrite the Symphony "in > >His own image", casting Himself as Creator of all things; where He is the > >Omniscient, Omnipotent, and Omnipresent; He is the Alpha and the Omega. > > Hrm..... Maybe they're the ones who corrupted the Grigori? > Wow. Talk about tangents! :) Sure.... why not? Who would it be? It would most likely be a secret society of some sort, on the order of the Illuminati, or the Knights Templar. And what would be their motivation for doing such a thing? Now, wait a minute. I just had a thought (they're rare, yes; I try to keep it to a one-a-day maximum). In Nephilim (by Chaosium), the histories of the Nephilim and the Templars are entertwined. The Templars have some Grand Plan that will come to its fruition around 2000 or so, but no one outside of the Inner Circle knows what this plan is (presumably, in Neph, it's some sort of Plan to destroy the Nephilim, but that's not a given). Perhaps their Plan is to rewrite the Symphony *yet again*, so that God, the Demons, the Angels are all out of the picture.... Hmmm..... the mouth salivates.... > >> >Thomas Davidson, who spent *way* too much time reading the Norse Myths as > >> >a child. :) > >> Naaaahhhh. > >I suspected not myself. Heck the Norse myths are better than any comic > >book -- and less boring than some "fantasies". But that's just me. > > No, it's not! I like 'em lots, too! > > [scribbles down stuff] I start to sweat when an LE starts scribbling.... usually means trouble's-a-comin'! :) (you wouldn't do that, though, would you? :) ) Thomas Davidson tdavidso@suffolk.lib.ny.us MUSIC: Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, Rolling Stones, Rush, Jimi Hendrix GAMES: Champions (old and new), In Nomine, Nephilim TV: The X-Files, the Simpsons, Superman, The Tick, the Animaniacs OTHER: Religion, Philosophy, mysticism, the runes, the Tarot, writing. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 10:27:00 +0200 (MET DST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: IN> A thought - opinions wanted On Wed, 24 Sep 1997, Nathaniel Eliot wrote: > Of course... > > > i have many other sources, large and small, that all boil together > > into my personal vision... i want to include some concepts from > > WoD and Kult, and those are flavoring some of the things to a > > certain degree, as does Nephilim... > > I know a bit about Kult from a White Wolf mag I got that had some > cross-over stuff entitled "The Jail of Night". It looked > interesting, but not what I'm looking for; I am going more for an > evolutionary feel, instead of a creationistic feel. There's some > things I might play with. Nephilim is worth cheking out. Ofcourse everything throughout history is explained by events set into motion by either NEphilim or Secret societies. Humens themselves were evolved by the Nephilim and evolution theories are a fraud created to confuse humans and keep them from learning the Truth. NEphilim themselves have no true body, but must posess that of a human. They do however strive to regain their true forms which are said to be like those of Gods. Fits quite nicely with In Nomine. Some people on the Nephilim mailinglist suggested that people could move their campqaign from nephilim to in nomine if their characters got that powerful, but this was not all that popular.... Hâvard Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caroll ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 04:49:11 -0700 (PDT) From: lugaid@seanet.com Subject: IN> Re: IN A thought - opinions wanted On 1997-09-24 in_nomine-l@lists.io.com said to lugaid@seanet.com >Okay, I see. So he can write the past, but he can't stop the future >from being variable. right... He has a great deal of influence, but anyone can buck God's will, if they want... which means that, by definition, the God of my game cannot be omnipotent, and is probably not omniscient (though He comes close)... >You probably want to make his rewriting of the >Symphony a *really* hard thing to do, so that if God goes to do it >again, it's going to be major, and something that can be stopped by >the PCs. absolutely... i do note that God has as much as said that He will be rewriting everything again at some future point - it is all recorded in the Revelation of St. John... though i have no idea if i want the campaign to ever involve the Battle of Armageddon... >Well, I'm looking at it one of two ways. One is that Enki was a >vessel of Lucifer, and his rebellion included the nam-shub. The >other is that Lucifer was a human like Yahweh, one who had gained >True Will (in the form of two Celestial forces). But that gets a >lot into the origin of God, too... if i may, i heartily recommend reading _Paradise Lost_... it is not an easy read, but is very much worth the effort... after reading it, the movie _The Prophecy_ (1995) has a depiction of Lucifer that is exquisite, even though he is not the focus of the movie... (re: _Snow Crash_) >I read it in about three days (interspersed with other things), went >"Wow", then lent it to a friend immediately. She should be >returning it this weekend, and it'll get reread. i loaned out my copy of the trade paperback to a friend, who promptly lost it, irritating me to no end... >Haven't had contact with Nephilim, though - is it worth much in it's >own right? depends on what you are looking for... i think it is very well-done, with a strange, wistful feel rather like that of many of the 19th century Romantic poets... >Voodoo is a good source, yes. I can't say I like a subjective >universe much, which it comes across as, a little. Lots of good >stuff about spirits, though... well, for me, that very subjectivity is important... my own views come from a faintly post-modernist perspective, and i am not very sure that anything but a subjective perspective is actually possible (which is one reason i'd love to run an Elohite - the idea of trying, as a life choice, to find objectivity fascinates me... i have a soft spot for futile causes ;)... >> fits my vision, anyway... i like things dark... not so dark as, >>say, Kult (though even there, there is quite the ray of light, if >>you know where to look), but pretty darn dark... >I tend to prefer gritty over dark, personally - it leaves a lot more >room for ambiguity. semantics... we seem to have a similar view, and my idea of "dark" *requires* ambiguity... to my way of thinking, if one side is absolutely "good", the other equally "evil", there will be no reason to ever support the "evil" side, as all of its characteristics will be specially chosen to be unsympathetic (witness, for instance, the medieval emphasis that demons are weak and cowardly, not mean and nasty)... with ambiguity, everything grows darker, and moral choices are more murky and difficult... there is no enemy that one cannot find common ground with... there is no action you can take against the enemy that won't harm you in some way... you can't just kill Asmodeus, for instance - - he acts as an important check on demonkind, keeping them from becoming too much of a nuisance... it would be like killing all of the cats in an area: quickly, the mice will overrun the place... >For instance, the ideas I am pushing here are >mostly Satan's side of things - there's enough wiggle room to see >God as a tough-but-good guy who's made some mistakes in the past, >but who is trying to help things, now. So neither side is really >sure... whereas i have made no moral judgement on what God has wrought - it is what has been done, and His motives are not the question anymore... the effects of His actions are the only important part... Slan agus Beannachtai, Lugaid MacRobert Freya, Goddess of Love and War: If ya can't lay 'em, slay 'em. Net-Tamer V 1.08X - Test Drive ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 08:47:24 -0400 From: Hunter Johnson Subject: Re: IN> Devil's Advocate (Slightly Off Topic) On Wed, 24 Sep 1997 18:54:15 -0700, "Chris Eng" said: > Just saw an ad on TV for the new movie, "Devil's Advocate," starring > al Pacino as Satan and Keanu Reeves as the Official Opposition > (Canadian joke). Is that the best God can do? Man, we're doomed to > darkness for sure. (Opens October 17) Well, Keanu plays a human, not an angel or other "official" representative of God, AFAIK. 'Sides, they probably thought we were doomed to darkness when David went after Goliath, yah? :-) The movie's based on a book by Andrew Neiderman, BTW. And you can check out the movie's web page at http://www.wbmovies.com/DEVILS/ (the Links section includes several online references for Dante's Inferno). Hunter - -- J. Hunter Johnson /\ SJG Errata Coordinator (sjg-errata@io.com) http://www.io.com/~jhunterj/ /()\ Knightmare Chess Development Coordinator jhunterj@io.com /____\ South Park: Care Bears on Acid -- G.C. Settlers RoboRally Brain Groo LunchMoney DinoHunt Knightmare GURPS AoR INWO ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 09:00:08 -0400 From: Highway Star Subject: Re: IN> Reading Material/Resources: At 0:56 -0400 9/25/97, Hobbes wrote: >Although I try to avoid Seanmike's posts unless he tells me >it's okay, I've been following the reading list thread. I can >prolly tell you what'll happen: Nah, don't lie like that! You avoid reading my posts 'cause you think they're DRIVEL! I'm so ashamed...guess you might as well start preparing that backup character...:) >We have: Malakite of Eli serving Michael, Cherub of Laurence, >Mercurian of Dominic, and Ofanite of Yves. I'm just glad we dropped the Ofanite of Janus - I was going up the wall figuring out how to keep her moving all over the place. >twitchiness without the patience to work for Yves. I, as the >aforementioned Mercurian, will die in twisted mess of a >crossfire started by the Cherub and/or Malakite. No, you'll die 'cause you'll start arguments between the Cherub, the Ofanite, and the Malakite, plus whatever demons are around, and whomever else is around, and they'll all shoot you first so they can go off together and get a Gusburger or something. >Hope I get a good funeral :). Short and sweet, then you get out the Calabite of Baal character, right?:) >Dan Oz - who only smoked cloves occasionally and has since quit. AH! How could you do that to our poor Ofanite? With whom shall she smoke now? SeanMike is thinking coffee might help some of his evil ideas achieve fruition... - ---- Sean Michael Whipkey, smw4s@virginia.edu Weldon Cooper Center for Public Service, Publications Div. 804/924-4185 (or -4188) voicenet, 804/982-5536 fax http://www.virginia.edu/~cpserv/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 08:05:14 -0500 From: Mark Allen Subject: IN> Needing Light for Darkness - -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 >Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 17:53:25 -0400 (EDT) >From: "Emily K. Dresner" >Subject: Re: IN> Malakim, Lucifer. >> I rather liked that idea myself... Lucifer as a Malakite... >> And he fell. >> And in falling he became a Balseraph - but he was already pretending >> to be a Malakim. Conclusion: Lucifer got stuck in his own personalsymphony, >> where he is a Malakite - one who faced God to preserve his honor. And the >> occasional fallen Malakim? "Well, *they* didn't stick with their vows - >> certainly God sent them to me for their destruction." >I was writing some In Nomine prose today (probably more will come out of >that), and I realized what an enormous lie Hell really was. It's a never >ending back-feeding cycle that just feeds in on itself. The demons who >Fell were convinced they were doing the right thing by a smooth talking >Seraphim who spoke eloquently of Free Will and the right as God's first >creation to be held above all else. And now the few that exist from the >original group find themselves trapped in the sea of politics and greed >and lies which keep them from being able to find redemption, since they >are so entrenched in their own little greedy piece of self created >paradise that to try to leave will seal their own destruction. Those who First, what is the motivation for these demons? It's not to be redeemed. That's not it at all. The reason they rebelled in the first place is because they (or they were convinced that they) didn't agree with the Holy Order of Things in Heaven. So Lucifer recruited some demons, saying corporately, "We're more important than humanity; take your halos and stick 'em." So this raises the question: Why would they ever want to leave? In for a penny, in for a pound here. Demons who are motivated by selfishness (that'd be just about all of them I think) aren't going to have some kind of epiphany in Hell, look around suddenly and go, "Wow. It's all been a big lie. Maybe God isn't so bad after all. Gee, I'm sorry. Whoops!" And then trudge, shamefully, back to Heaven, head bowed apolegetically. That just isn't going to happen. (Aside: I can imagine a Balseraph of Kobal convincing someone (a servitor of Asmodeus for maximum humor value) to wander the streets of Shal-Mari, like some infernal street corner revivalist, preaching this idea to the damned souls and demons. *snicker*) [snip] >Those who were raised there know no different way of existing - >and they may be the only ones who can truely be redeemed. Again, you're missing the point. >It's a lure, really, to Hell, with the belief in Free Will and the right >to do what you please, as long as its in the bounds of your Master's >belief system. You get there and it's an incredible lie. You are bound >to a Master, clutching panically for existance, who is in turn bound to >the biggest liar in existance. Who is bound to what, God? Mankind? This much is true. BUT -- Those demons who joined Lucifer didn't */have/* to join the rebellion. They could have stayed pat in Heaven. Some rebellous angels might have been naive about what would happen once they arrived in Hell. Others, I imagine, knew *exactly* what was going to happen; those that did probably wanted to live that way -- after all, they think, "*I've* got mine. Get your own, you slugabed demons (and don't try to take mine or I'll crush you like a paper cup.)" [snip: One can have honor with being Malakim. I agree. Also snipped Fallen Malakim.] >[And somewhere in the back of my mind is an image of Lucifer, alone, >realizing that without Heaven, he has no War and cannot justify his >continuing existance. He is the dark mirror image of what it was he >fought against, and there cannot be a Dark without the Light, for Light is >the measure against which the shades of Darkness compare. Yet his Legions I strongly disagree with this. You can have Dark without Light -- it's called Darkness. :) There doesn't /have/ to be symmetry here. Surely you can look at two "Evils" and decide if one is more "Evil" than another. Besides, if Lucifer wins, that's it for humanity (and on a grander scope -- the Universe? I don't really want to go here.) >outweight those of Heavens, and the souls they keep are far more numerous >then his counterparts. He knows he must keep his armies weak, rife with >infighting, paranoid, mistrustful and enslaved to maintain the War. Yet Lucifer does this to maintain his own power over Hell. He, I believe, *wants* to win. You're describing somekind of Orwellian War for War's Sake, its objective: to pacify the masses and lend a threat of urgency to the actions (i.e., if we relax, or if we let the proles think for themselves, the invading Oceanic hordes will descend -- oh, the horror, the horror.) One doesn't need that in Hell -- because Hell itself, and it's Demon Prince rulers are WAY more than enough threat in and of themselves. >if something ever happened to God, or the Son of God, or the Legions of >Light, he himself would fade to nothingness. He NEEDS them. Maybe God is >a big Lilim? Again, I totally disagree. >Lucifer knows that Mankind no longer needs them. He alone maintains the >furvor of the War. It is his Selfish Greed which keep the Celestial >realms from going the way of the Ethereal, and to be replaced by something >grander, science. Hrm. The idea of science as a religion is intriguing, but disturbing. I wonder if technology might be a more appropriate religion... (This, with echoes of Clarke's "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." One wonders if you could replace 'magic' with 'miracles.') Sigh. Too much INWO for me, I fear. Reminds me -- when will we get a demon and angel expansion set for INWO? :) :) >- - Em, wacked out on too much stuff today. Mark - -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0 Charset: noconv iQA/AwUBNCphiWhBaZ8gTMdnEQLLlQCgk2wwpP3JJOvY8X9EqhIuNgSWSdQAn2GF gm+VsWsNVaBPJaHjYE/c2bNh =73xW - -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- - -- Mark Allen -- mallen@computer.org -- There are two major products from UC-Berkeley: LSD and UNIX. I don't think that's a coincidence. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #358 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.