From owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Fri Sep 26 16:06:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA13568 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 16:06:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id PAA08273 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 15:40:17 -0500 Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 15:40:17 -0500 Message-Id: <199709262040.PAA08273@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #361 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@LISTS.IO.COM Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Friday, September 26 1997 Volume 01 : Number 361 In this digest: Re: IN> In Nomine Live-Action Re: IN> Needing Light for Darkness (reply in bulk) Re: IN> just a thought Re: Re: IN> In Nomine Live-Action Re: IN> The Prophecy and source materials Re: IN> Needing Light for Darkness Re: IN> Lucifer & The Big Lie (was Malakim, Lucifer) Re: IN> Needing Light for Darkness Re: IN> Needing Light for Darkness (reply in bulk) Re: IN> some more questions IN> Fisuba, Demon of Abuse Re: IN> just a thought IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #360 Re: IN> In Nomine Live-Action Re: IN> Thor deceased? alternate theeory (silly) Re: IN> In Nomine Live-Action Re: IN> Needing Light for Darkness IN> God bless you, celestial-citizen! IN> What good are tethers? Re: IN> Needing Light for Darkness Re: IN> In Nomine Live-Action Re: IN> The Calabim Experiment -- Document Number: CVX-034-DC-003-bis Re: Re: IN> In Nomine Live-Action ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 11:31:50 -0300 From: Andre Ribeiro Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Live-Action > > Can anyone tell me whose doing what, when and to whom? Has anyone else > > considered rules for live-action? > > The LARP is going to be written by the same people (probably) > that are writing the current batch of In Nomine supplements. It should > be late in '98. Well, I'm a sort of a "LARP fanatic" (I'm currently running three live-action's chronicles - in 11 different cities... - and I've still got plans for two more in '98) and since I grabbed IN I couldn't stop thinking how it would be perfect for a LARP game... Time is really a problem, but I try as ever as possible to do some work on it's adaptation - and I think I'm already coming up with something... I managed to preserve the Interventions, but everything would be a lot easier if we had six fingers!! :-) Anyway, If somebody want to chat on the subject, drop me a line. Soon I'll have some solid stuff to put here - for you all to disturb the Symphony *in person*... Andre ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 10:13:55 -0400 From: Highway Star Subject: Re: IN> Needing Light for Darkness (reply in bulk) At 23:07 -0500 9/25/97, Mark Allen wrote: >They might say that. Some of them. And then that's when the Prince of the >Game and his servants drag the heretics, screaming, into the fiery bowels >of Hell. Mmm. That has a certain nice mental imagery, doesn't it? *content >sigh* I must have read that wierd the first time. I imagined huge, burly demons dragging role-players down to hell, saying to the screaming gamer: "We know you've been neglecting to play by the FULL rules of our company's games, so know you pay with your soul! Next time you will not so lightly choose to use house rules or your own background! BWAHAHAHAHAHA!" But then again, I'm odd. >(Brain twitch: Balseraph of Asmodeous wearing a button: We keep Hell >satanized for your protection. Oooo...that'd make a good button for my pep band uniform. >Another brain twitch: What if Hell is really Alpha Complex? Hmmmm. Note to >SJ Games: We need GURPS Paranoia.) GURPS Paranoia? Eeek! I still think Heaven should be Alpha Complex, though.:) SeanMike - ---- Sean Michael Whipkey, smw4s@virginia.edu Weldon Cooper Center for Public Service, Publications Div. 804/924-4185 (or -4188) voicenet, 804/982-5536 fax http://www.virginia.edu/~cpserv/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 97 11:14 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> just a thought >On Thu, 25 Sep 97 13:22 EDT, Walter Milliken wrote: > >>I view Vapula as foisting a lot of half-baked tech off on (mostly) >>unsuspecting humans. Partly this is because there are a lot more humans >>to be beta-testers, and partly this is because he's a Habbalite, and >>*enjoys* watching humans cope with the fallout from poorly-thought-out >>ideas. After all, if they trust in tech when they shouldn't, they >>*deserve* what they get.... > >So, we're talking MicroSquish here, right? I tend to think of Bill Gates as a Soldier of Vapula who's gotten out of control. Or maybe not... Vapula *is* a Habbalite. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 11:19:44 -0400 (EDT) From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: Re: IN> In Nomine Live-Action In a message dated 9/26/97 7:43:18 AM, y'all wrote: >> > Can anyone tell me whose doing what, when and to whom? Has anyone else >> > considered rules for live-action? >> >> The LARP is going to be written by the same people (probably) >> that are writing the current batch of In Nomine supplements. It should >> be late in '98. > > Well, I'm a sort of a "LARP fanatic" (I'm currently running three >live-action's chronicles - in 11 different cities... - and I've still got >plans for two more in '98) and since I grabbed IN I couldn't stop thinking >how it would be perfect for a LARP game... Time is really a problem, but >I try as ever as possible to do some work on it's adaptation - and I think >I'm already coming up with something... I managed to preserve the >Interventions, but everything would be a lot easier if we had six fingers!! >:-) Another idea is referees with the dice (or an electronic equivalent)... > Anyway, If somebody want to chat on the subject, drop me a line. Soon >I'll have some solid stuff to put here - for you all to disturb the Symphony >*in person*... > Heh, heh... I have this image of a referee with a handbell, ringing it as loud as your Disturbance calls for...and players come running from blocks around. Also, this is a *great* way to have a group playing both Infernal and Heavenly characters in the same game... > Andre Mark (I wanna be a Cherub of David!) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 11:29:16 -0400 (EDT) From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> The Prophecy and source materials In a message dated 9/26/97 7:39:18 AM, you wrote: >People have mentioned "The Great Divorce" by C. S. Lewis as >source material. Specifically, it gives interesting ideas >for scenery in Heaven and Hell. > >I also recommend C. S. Lewis's "Preface to Paradise Lost," >especially for those who would kinda like to read Milton but >aren't sure they want to put all that much energy into it. >Lewis's book is much shorter, written in modern English prose >(rather than antique English verse), and might just convince >you to read the original. Whether it does or not, it will give >you several interesting ideas about demonic psychology and >the anatomy of celestial forms. > While we're on the Inklings, Don't forget _The_Screwtape_Letters_, also by C.S. Lewis. Letter's from a Demon's uncle, instructing him in the corruption of a human soul. Also, has anyone else noticed that the base concept of The Symphony seems to be lifted directly from Tolkien? The first section of _The_Silmarillion_ is a work whose title is translated "The Music of the Ainur"... >Earl Wajenberg Mark (Orome=Michael, Mandos=Yves, Yvanna=Novalis... I'll stop now.) }:> ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 12:08:54 -0400 (EDT) From: "Emily K. Dresner" Subject: Re: IN> Needing Light for Darkness > > >So this raises the question: Why would they ever want to leave? In > >for a penny, in for a pound here. Demons who are motivated by > >selfishness (that'd be just about all of them I think) aren't going > >to have some kind of epiphany in Hell, look around suddenly and go, > >"Wow. It's all been a big lie. Maybe God isn't so bad after all. Gee, > >I'm sorry. Whoops!" And then trudge, shamefully, back to Heaven, head > >bowed apolegetically. > > But these same selfish guys might say I'm sick of contiually being on my > guard. The guys on the other side of the fence seem to play fairer. Can I > come and play too? Right, the above comment seems to disqualify the possibility of redemption. I believe the game NEEDS Redemption, to remove the feelings of absolution. It's just a part of the flavor. > >I strongly disagree with this. You can have Dark without Light -- > >it's called Darkness. :) There doesn't /have/ to be symmetry here. > >Surely you can look at two "Evils" and decide if one is more "Evil" > >than another. Besides, if Lucifer wins, that's it for humanity (and > >on a grander scope -- the Universe? I don't really want to go here.) > > I don't think so. The subjective nature of such qualifications require the > two ends of the scale in order to place examples somewhere on that scale. > "Lo! thy dread empire Chaos is restor'd, Light dies before thy uncreating word; Thy hand, great Anarch, lets the curtain fall, And universal darkness buries all." Line 649. "The Duncaid", Alexander Pope I read somewhere that in darkness there is only darkness, but in light, everything casts a shadow. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 12:14:25 -0400 (EDT) From: "Emily K. Dresner" Subject: Re: IN> Lucifer & The Big Lie (was Malakim, Lucifer) > > Malakim already have a fitting counterpart in Hell -- vastly > > different in many ways, but in certain respects frighteningly > > similar. They're called *Lilim*. > > I agree totally. In fact, I thought it was obvious from the > symmetry built into the hierarchies. There's one choir of > angels with no fallen counterpart -- Malakim -- and one band of > demons that has no "native" unfallen counterpart -- Lilim. The > symmetry isn't quite perfect, since there are NO fallen Malakim > and there are occasional bright Lilim. But then the symmetry > between good and evil is never quite perfect. > I've always sort of thought this way. Mostly because they are not so much opposites as analagous of each other. Unlike the other Bands and Choirs, the Malakim and Lilim stand where they do not - the Grey, the fuzzy area inbetween. You can be a very good Malakim. You can be a very evil Malakim. Both attain the same goal. You can be a very good Lilim (and find yourself Bright on accident - have to watch that.) Or you can be a very evil Lilim. But either way, the majority stand in the middle, rubbing out the lines between Heaven and Hell with their toes. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 12:00:26 -0400 (EDT) From: "Emily K. Dresner" Subject: Re: IN> Needing Light for Darkness Sorry, I'm a day late in responding. I got busy with stuff. [ my stuff snipped ] > BUT -- > > Those demons who joined Lucifer didn't */have/* to join the > rebellion. They could have stayed pat in Heaven. Some rebellous > angels might have been naive about what would happen once they > arrived in Hell. Others, I imagine, knew *exactly* what was going to > happen; those that did probably wanted to live that way -- after all, > they think, "*I've* got mine. Get your own, you slugabed demons (and > don't try to take mine or I'll crush you like a paper cup.)" See, this bothers me, just in general. This is the assumption that Hell existed before Lucifer. Did it? It's a perfectly valid chicken and the egg question. If one assumes that God created Hell for the Fallen Angels, then there would be no way that they would know what they were getting themselves into, because it didn't exist. There might have been some speculation, but if you've never seen it and it's never existed, how can you know what it is going to be? It is possible that they either believed they were going to Earth, or going to someplace like Heaven with a better basketball team. Either way, it probably wasn't the real mccoy. On the other hand, if Hell existed first, and they knew they were going there and exactly what it was like, which pales next to the Glory of God, that begs two questions. First, where was the stopgap that now exists for Angels who are Falling? They clearly skipped the "Outcast" step, which allows for time to reconsider. Second, how did Lucifer convince an entire third of the holy host to come with him, if they knew it was so nasty? Even if they wanted to all live that way, it's a hell of a choice (no pun intended). So maybe it was there, and they knew what was there, but could the Angels really, truly, understand Hell before they became Fallen? It was out of their realm of any experience they had ever had - any of their existing number had ever had. It's an observation. If hell came first, the imputous would be lower to Fall (thus facilitating 1/3rd instead of ALL the holy host?). If it came second, it was created just for them. ************* So in that matter, what is Hell? Is just a much a prison for the Fallen as it is for the souls that live there? Worse then for the humans? A giant prison, designed by God, to exist until it is no longer needed by Mankind who fixates on Evil, which is served to torture those who defied him originally, and their decendants? (It reminds me of the Labyrinth from the Death Gate Cycle books, in that regard.) I have this picture of Hell being ultimately run by God as the real power, and Lucifer just being the Head Inmate. They have societies, they have their little power struggles, and sometimes they come out of their hole to make things worse. But essential, they are criminals in their prison, and Angels serve to shove them back in once in a while. Worse... what I'm thinking about doing in my game, is to make some infernal tethers rips in the fabric of reality into the Pit from which the demons come and go. On one side, where reality is particularly thin between the grey maggot-strewn floors of Abaddon and the death camps in now defunct Yugoslavia, the Shedim leak through, possessing the guards, senselessly murdering until their host is mad or murdered himself. From the battlegrounds of Gehenna leak through the armed Calabites onto the fields of battle in some unknown jungle rainforest of Central America to take the battle to new, bloodier heights. On the other side, you, a human, walk into a back room of a bordello, hoping to get your money's worth, and you find yourself standing on a street with a blood red sky above, a street of broken storefronts stretching ahead of you, and a grinning Calabite welcoming you to Andrealphus's realm for your eternal torment. Behind you, the bordello is gone. Welcome to Hell, have a nice stay. But that's getting twisted, coming back to the meaning of Redemption, what it means to leave the Pit and has completely left the topic this originally was for points unknown. Zip. .... okay, at this point in the mail I was just completely rambling. So who knows if it ever meant anything. [snip] > Lucifer does this to maintain his own power over Hell. He, I believe, > *wants* to win. You're describing somekind of Orwellian War for War's > Sake, its objective: to pacify the masses and lend a threat of > urgency to the actions (i.e., if we relax, or if we let the proles > think for themselves, the invading Oceanic hordes will descend -- oh, > the horror, the horror.) One doesn't need that in Hell -- because > Hell itself, and it's Demon Prince rulers are WAY more than enough > threat in and of themselves. I like Orwellian Wars for War's sake, though. Just that undercurrent running continuously in hell makes things very interesting, even if it's just like a faint heartbeat. > Hrm. The idea of science as a religion is intriguing, but disturbing. Thank you. I aim to please. > I wonder if technology might be a more appropriate religion... (This, > with echoes of Clarke's "Any sufficiently advanced technology is > indistinguishable from magic." One wonders if you could replace > 'magic' with 'miracles.') I've had some serious thoughts about this, distrubing scary stuff about Jean and Vapula and where they really are going as other things become less important in a religious sense, but I think it's addressed in mails by other people, and I'll answer those. > > Sigh. Too much INWO for me, I fear. Reminds me -- when will we get a > demon and angel expansion set for INWO? :) :) - - Em, who is looking more like she works for Asmodeus then anyone else, from rereading these posts and reading the followups. (But a Band, I need a BAND!) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 12:17:46 -0400 (EDT) From: "Emily K. Dresner" Subject: Re: IN> Needing Light for Darkness (reply in bulk) > >>I don't think so. The subjective nature of such qualifications require the > >>two ends of the scale in order to place examples somewhere on that scale. > > > >I still disagree. And even if you buy this whole symmetry argument, then > >you have to buy it both ways. You're claiming, in the converse then, that > >light requires darkness; again, which I don't believe. > > Not necessarily the existence of the 'thing' but in the ability to define > it. For someone who has only ever known hell and possibly evil, what's > good? Or evil for that matter? I was thinking about this. To the demons who have never known Heaven, what does it mean to be "good"? What does it mean to dwell in Heaven? Why do these Angel guys BOTHER when Humans are evil all by themselves? And are they all evil by proxy? ...I suppose for the majority of them, yes they are. But some of them have GOT to wonder. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 97 12:04 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> some more questions I'm not going to get into too much detail -- my group hasn't finished Feast of Blades yet (should be done tomorrow, though, I hope), and some of them read this list.... >1)In Feast of Blades, I cannot understand why Hamet would give Roberto the >calling card for Landridge House. It makes no sense that he would leave >such an obvious trail to such an important place. This one is tricky. The best answer I can think of is that Hamet is rather overconfident and quite arrogant. Roberto was going to die soon, and Hamet was amusing himself at Roberto's expense by giving it to him. Of course, since the card survives for the PCs to get, providing an important clue to a major secret should probably be considered a dissonant act for a Servitor of Secrets.... > And why wouldn't Roberto >head to Landridge when he ran into trouble to seek out the "fellow >sorcerer"? There are several fairly easy answers to this: - Roberto is still in shock from the events of the previous few hours - He's not in very good psychological shape, anyway, due to the Dagger's effects on him. - And he may be afraid, in his somewhat weakened condition, that another powerful sorcerer might be more danger than help. These are *evil* sorcerers, after all.... >2)How many ways can a Celestial be detected? I seem to recall somebaody >mentioning that somebody had done a write up on this subject so maybe I >could be pointed in that direction. See http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/articles/perception.txt >3)How can a mortal/Soldier/Undead tell a Celestial/Soldier/undead from a >mortal? >Eg, could a Demon tell that a Sodlier of Hell was actually a SOldier of God >in disguise? The quick answer is that it's hard to tell who's what without a program.... Some of the ways listed in the reference for 2) above will probably work for humans, though not many of them. Basically: - - if someone hits you, and it doesn't make noise (and you've got enough Perception to notice!), they're a Soldier or undead, not a celestial (except Asmodeus' lot using Humanity, but they're not likely to hit you in the first place). - - Soldiers of Hell and Soldiers of God are probably indistinguishable to humans, except through actions or identification of associated celestials. - - if you watch someone for a long time, and they don't eat, drink, go to the bathroom, or sleep, they're almost certainly a celestial or undead. - - someone with an obvious Need is probably an undead, though celestials also have these sometimes. - - a medical examination may be able to detect undead -- I don't recall if the book says anything about it, but I'd be inclined to say it would. - - originally, anyone using non-Corporeal Songs had to be a celestial, though I think The Marches changed that (I haven't read it through yet). - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 11:12:11 EST From: "PERRY M. LLOYD" Subject: IN> Fisuba, Demon of Abuse Well, let's try that again. This is in response to the Angel of Housewives, which, I think, is really quite cool. >Suzanne >Angel of Housewives >Cherub Friend of Fire I *really* like this. And, yes, husbands get abused, too. Also, last time I check the statistics (1996), 40% of Lesbian relationships were abusive. But, it makes me wonder, just how it is that all the abusers are getting away with this? Fisuba The Demon of Abuse Shedim Baron of Inner Torment, Knight of Restlessness "You get off the phone right now, do you hear me?!!!" "Mary, I'd better get off the..." _click_ "Bob, don't get angry, I..." *WHAM!!!* "You sorry excuse for a wife! I slave over a desk all day for you *SLAP!* and what do I get in return?! *CRACK!* I... oh, god... what have I done?!" Malphas is very pleased with Fisuba. Playing on people's frustrations, feeling of dependency and lack of empathy, as well as manipulating people's perceptions of abuse (they ask for it, they provoke it, they like it), Fisuba has mananged to warp the notion of family for about three to four million abused women (in the U.S. alone) into a strange world of guilt, isolation, denial, and most of all, fear. Fear of reporting it, fear of abuse, fear that one is responsible for the abuse one receives. And that's just the way Fisuba likes it. In fact, Fisuba has managed to generate so much fear, distrust, and pain, that Beleth has given him a distinction herself! But perhaps Fisuba's most treasured brain-child is the vicious cirle of abuse. Fisuba helps his victims along this cycle, moving them through the four general stages: Tension, Incident, Remorse, and Honeymoon. At first other demons were skepical of the Honeymoon stage, until they witnessed its ability to hold the couple together, allowing the abuse to continue and escalate, driving the victim further into passivity and hopelessness, driving the batterer further to her/his Fate. Fisuba The Demon of Abuse Shedim Baron of Inner Torment, Knight of Restlessness Corporeal Forces 5 Strength 12 Agility 8 Ethereal Forces 5 Intelligence 11 Precision 9 Celestial Forces 5 Will 12 Perception 8 Songs: Attraction (Cele/5), Dreams(Corp/4,Ethe/5,Cele/4), Entropy(Cele/4), Healing(Cele/4), Tongues(Ethe/5) Skills: Detect Lies/6, Driving/5, Fighting/5, Lying/6, Emote/6, Singing/3 Attunements: Shedim of Factions, Habbalah of Factions, Imbroglio, Polarize Special Rites * Make a non-batterer into a batterer * Convince a victim the he or she "deserves" the abuse. Thoughts? - -Perry Perry M. Lloyd Angel of Forgetfulness, Demon of Confabulation "And the Lord was very sorry that he made humankind on the earth, and it grieved his heart." - Genesis 6:6 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 12:38:56 -0400 (EDT) From: "Emily K. Dresner" Subject: Re: IN> just a thought > >>I view Vapula as foisting a lot of half-baked tech off on (mostly) > >>unsuspecting humans. Partly this is because there are a lot more humans > >>to be beta-testers, and partly this is because he's a Habbalite, and > >>*enjoys* watching humans cope with the fallout from poorly-thought-out > >>ideas. After all, if they trust in tech when they shouldn't, they > >>*deserve* what they get.... > > > >So, we're talking MicroSquish here, right? > > I tend to think of Bill Gates as a Soldier of Vapula who's gotten out of > control. Or maybe not... Vapula *is* a Habbalite. > I like to think of Bill Gates as a human, like Hitler and Nero. Humans can be far more evil then demons. They can conceptualize it better. Now the Microsoft Marketing Department...... :) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 18:23:26 +0200 From: Jo Hart Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #360 >Date: Thu, 25 Sep 97 23:15:56 -0400 >From: dwood@skipjack.bluecrab.org >Subject: IN> Lucifer & The Big Lie (was Malakim, Lucifer) > > >Especially when many angels didn't really have to fall to achieve that >Free Will. How many archangels will micromanage their servants to the >point where they can take no independent actions. There's Jean, and ...? Even there, the angel always has the 'Ooops, I accidentally flicked off the power switch just before that email arrived' or 'Oops, I must have a really bad net.connection today, boss' or 'Oh dear *crackle* *hiss* ... is that noise on the line?' options ;-) > >Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 23:07:27 -0500 >From: Mark Allen >Subject: Re: IN> Needing Light for Darkness (reply in bulk) > > >Well, perhaps that's the only difference /for you./ If you buy into this >whole "God really exists" epistemology. I remain a devoted agnostic, >perfectly happy to swing in the wind; right now I'm leaning more towards >the athestic side. I believe, therefore (ATM), that miracles are merely >misnamed events that are not explanable by human senses. No divine >intervention here, thankyouverymuch. So what is divine intervention? I do remember being told at school that God never needs to break his own rules of nature in order to intervene in mortal matters -- a miracle is when something happens that needs no supernatural explanation, but happens at precisely the right time. (the example we were given was the parting of the Red Sea, which apparently is a phenomenon that can occur naturally). Now whether or not you believe this iRL, its the way I approach divine interventions in the game. A divine intervention can always be explained as an astoundingly well-timed coincidence (well, except when it involves an AA turning up in person) whereas demons love breaking rules, so an infernal intervention will usually be much more obvious.... >>Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 11:26:03 +1000 >>From: christopher.stevenson@aihw.gov.au (Christopher Stevenson) >>Subject: Re: IN> Needing Light for Darkness >>But these same selfish guys might say I'm sick of contiually being on my >>guard. The guys on the other side of the fence seem to play fairer. Can I >>come and play too? > >They might say that. Some of them. And then that's when the Prince of the >Game and his servants drag the heretics, screaming, into the fiery bowels >of Hell. Mmm. That has a certain nice mental imagery, doesn't it? *content >sigh* > Come on now. What could be fairer than The Game? ;-) It has rules and everything! Not like heaven which runs on an unwritten constitution (and we all know what that means). jo ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 13:42:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Starcrossed Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Live-Action > The LARP is going to be written by the same people (probably) > that are writing the current batch of In Nomine supplements. It should > be late in '98. OTOH, Relics is probably going to be an early release > (possibly even this year, but don't hold yer breath). Just out of curiosity, how many people on that writing staff have LARP playing/writing/GMing experience? It's a whole different animal from tabletop, and I'm wondering what kind of perspective they'll be going into the project with... - -- John Trussell truss@hotblack.gweep.net (Off to play in a 48-hour LARP in about... *checks watch* ...two hours.) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 10:51:27 +0500 From: Daiv Barr Subject: Re: IN> Thor deceased? alternate theeory (silly) Maybe he has faked his death. Maybe he retreated to, and is hiding, biding his time, untril h may rise again. Where would he hide? and what would he do whilehe is hiding? maybe, just maybe, he is at IOU, the dean of physical education (whatever they cal it there) and the coach of the Team... maybe I should start having my morning cofe before I start reading this list... - -Daiv ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:38:10 -0300 From: Andre Ribeiro Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Live-Action MarkDEddy@aol.com wrote: > >I'm already coming up with something... I managed to preserve the > >Interventions, but everything would be a lot easier if we had six fingers!! > >:-) > Another idea is referees with the dice (or an electronic equivalent)... No-no-no-no!!! Have you ever seen the Star Wars LARP?? It has a marvelous background, of course, but it uses dice to resolve challenges. Now can you picture Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker, full dressed, in the middle of a lightsaber fight, crouched and rolling dice?? It *is* ridiculous (I've already seen that...)... I think we gotta use something less 'disturbing' and hand signals, as in The Masquerade, sounds just great to me... > Heh, heh... I have this image of a referee with a handbell, ringing it as > loud as your Disturbance calls for...and players come running from blocks > around. Now, that's something we could work on! > Mark (I wanna be a Cherub of David!) I just can't wait to meet the Lilim players... :-) Andre ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 17:35:52 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: Re: IN> Needing Light for Darkness On Thu, 25 Sep 1997 22:53:52 -0600 (MDT), Kingsley Lintz wrote: >> >I strongly disagree with this. You can have Dark without Light -- >> >it's called Darkness. :) There doesn't /have/ to be symmetry here. >> I don't think so. The subjective nature of such qualifications require the >> two ends of the scale in order to place examples somewhere on that scale. > I don't know..thinking about it, while I'd certainly agree that >you have to have both to KNOW what you have, I don't know that you need >one TO have the other. Ie. we may require both, but I don't see where >they require each other... In a bout of insomnia, some philosophy ought to do the job--of curing insomnia, anyway: First, let's recognize that dark means not light, and light means not dark. They are antonyms, basically. One is referring to the absence of its opposite. So let's get real basic here. Pizza. The existence of pizza means at least the existence of the conceptual concept of no pizza--as terrifying as that may be. If you've got a concept of something, you automatically get at least the concept of not having that something. Actual existence is neither here nor there; we're talking concepts here. Now to Genesis. Presumably, we start with Dark. That leads inevitably to the concept, not dark; which we generally refer to as, Light. So, "Let there be Light!" Inevitably, the concept arises that there might be not-light, i.e., Dark. We can even go for everything at once: we have the concept Universe--capital U Universe, all inclusive, for our use now including God (the relation between the two is another question). We can conceive of the concept of having nothing: no Universe. It's not possible to ever experience it, but the concept exists. So, you don't have to have the actual existence of the opposite--we can't find any not-Universe by definition. But the absence of something has to be conceivable as soon as the presence of something is conceived. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:57:49 -0300 From: Andre Ribeiro Subject: IN> God bless you, celestial-citizen! Highway Star wrote: > I imagined huge, burly demons dragging role-players down to hell, saying to > the screaming gamer: > > "We know you've been neglecting to play by the FULL rules of our company's "Our company's" ?!?! You're saying Uncle Stevie is just some Demon's Role?? A servant of Asmodeus who often works with Kobal too, sure - but which band? :-D > >Another brain twitch: What if Hell is really Alpha Complex? > I still think Heaven should be Alpha Complex, though.:) Yeah, Heaven sounds more like it... "Er...Mr. Dominic, I quite can't grab the meaning of my mission..." "You're not clearified for that, celestial-citizen. Its security level is Word-bound's. "But I don't know - "Don't you trust in God, celestial-citizen?" (swetting) "Of course I do, but this says I gotta enter Hell and - "Do you think God doesn't know what He's doing? Are you a traitor??" "N-no, I j-just..." "Have a nice day, celestial-citizen. God is your friend." Or maybe it's a game where all the players are heavy Discordians Angels - - mutants and traitors - and must live on the verge of being discovered by his peers, being discovered by Dominic's peers or falling... Tell *me* about paranoia...! Andre ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 13:52:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Casca Subject: IN> What good are tethers? On Fri, 26 Sep 1997, Emily K. Dresner wrote: > Worse... what I'm thinking about doing in my game, is to make some > infernal tethers rips in the fabric of reality into the Pit from which > the demons come and go. I've had a nagging question in my head for a while and I think you might be the one to answer it, based upon what you said in your post. What purpose do tethers serve? I don't see any reason for their existence. Sure, they make it easier to go to Heaven or Hell, but the same can be done by assume Celestial form and ascending/descending. They make it easier to summon the Superior they're consecrated to by adding, what, a +2? Big deal. Celestials can work off dissonance at a tether, and that's about all the use I can find for them. As far as I can tell, they're big and noisy targets. But I get the feeling that there should eb more to them then that. A tether to Andrealphus should increase the level or moral turpitude in an area, thereby furthering his word, but as far as canon goes that's not supported. If tethers don't increase the influence of a superior's Word on the corporeal plane, why go to the expense and trouble of making one? I've been toying with the idea that Celestials cannot enter the corporeal plane without using either a tether or dream-walking. This would make it mroe restrictive to PCs, I know, but at least then there'd be a reason for having tethers. I'm ranting, I know. Helpful replies would be greatly appreciated. - -- Casca (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 13:54:07 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Needing Light for Darkness Emily K. Dresner wrote: > See, this bothers me, just in general. This is the assumption that > Hell existed before Lucifer. Did it? None of the monotheistic religions gives a definite answer, so far as I know, but lesser authorities have said different things: In Dante, Hell is, in essence, the crater formed at the center of the Earth when Lucifer hit at the end of the Fall. All the rest of the decor is later elaboration by Lucifer and the demons. Bear in mind, however, that Dante was writing an allegory. He might well have agreed with the Christian mystic (whose name escapes me) who said that "the flames of hell are the light of God as seen by those who reject it." That is, Hell *is* the Fall. The flames and ruin and such are the objectification of the hatred and resentment of the demons. Along these lines, Mephistopheles, in Marlowe's "Dr. Faustus," says, while standing in Dr. Faustus's study, "Why, this is hell, nor am I out of it, nor is hell circumscribed in one self place, but where we are is hell, and where hell is, there must we ever be. Think you not that I, who saw the face of God and tasted the eternal joys of Heaven, am not tormented with ten thousand hells, thus to be deprived of everlasting bliss?" (Or something like that.) Dorothy L. Sayers, author of the Lord Peter Wimsey mysteries, wrote her own version of the Faust story, "The Devil to Pay," and used similar ideas. In Milton, Hell seems to exist waiting to receive the demons, but I don't recall that it is clear it was MADE for them; they may just have been exiled to the chaotic fringes of creation, where they then set up their empire and build the city of Pandemonium. > I have this picture of Hell being ultimately run by God as the real > power, and Lucifer just being the Head Inmate. They have societies, > they have their little power struggles, and sometimes they come out > of their hole to make things worse. But essential, they are > criminals in their prison, and Angels serve to shove them back in > once in a while. Hell as prison for even the demons (1) goes along with what Mephistopheles said above, even if the demons roam the Earth, and (2) is very compatible with the New Testament, where demons are cast into an abyss when exorcised, and, in Revelation, Satan is imprisonned in an abyss for the duration of the Millenium, then ultimately cast into the Lake of Fire. In the theology I was brought up in, the picture was of demons roaming the Corporeal realm (in IN terms) and a low-rent section of the Celestial, but slowly getting picked off, exorcism by exorcism, and cast into the Abyss, there to await execution in the Lake of Fire, with Armageddon being a sort of mass exorcism. I like your sin-specific picture of "leakage" between Hell and Earth. Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:44:58 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Live-Action Andre Ribeiro wrote: > No-no-no-no!!! Have you ever seen the Star Wars LARP?? It has a > marvelous background, of course, but it uses dice to resolve > challenges. Now can you picture Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker, > full dressed, in the middle of a lightsaber fight, crouched and > rolling dice?? It *is* ridiculous (I've already seen that...)... "Castle Falkenstein" has a LARP dueling system using playing cards, which can be flashed about with more panache. And the Falkenstein crowd is very big on panache. Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 15:28:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Hobbes Subject: Re: IN> The Calabim Experiment -- Document Number: CVX-034-DC-003-bis According to Hart, Joanna: > The job of any test engineer is to break the object, machine or code > which is under test. A successful test is one in which the object fails. > Sometimes it is absolutely necessary to test the subject to destruction, > in order to determine its limits. There is no creature in all the planes Bwahahahahaha, this is great! My area of study is material failure and analysis, so a lot of our labs have involved just plain busting stuff. Great fun, especially when you break a high-strength steel just as a tour group walks by the lab. *CRACK* - glancing out the window, half of the high-schoolers and their parents are ducking from what they think is a gunshot in the engineering school. *grin*. Dan Ozdowski Now looks at his professors in a new light. Then again, I always claimed they were demons. - -- Don't blame me, I voted for Sgarlata. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 16:00:59 -0400 (EDT) From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: Re: IN> In Nomine Live-Action In a message dated 9/26/97 11:30:37 AM, Andre wrote: >> >I'm already coming up with something... I managed to preserve the >> >Interventions, but everything would be a lot easier if we had six fingers!! >> >:-) >> Another idea is referees with the dice (or an electronic equivalent)... > > No-no-no-no!!! Have you ever seen the Star Wars LARP?? It has a marvelous >background, of course, but it uses dice to resolve challenges. Now can you >picture Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker, full dressed, in the middle of a >lightsaber fight, crouched and rolling dice?? It *is* ridiculous (I've already >seen that...)... I think we gotta use something less 'disturbing' and >hand signals, as in The Masquerade, sounds just great to me... This was why I was suggesting referees or spotters to roll dice. Another option would be to use a rule like "If you *want* an intervention, roll the d666, otherwise just use hand signals." When I'm running a table game, I occasionally roll just to see if an Intervention happens. (snip) > I just can't wait to meet the Lilim players... :-) > > Andre Mark (My table Lilim is bad enough...) ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #361 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.