From owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Fri Sep 26 21:48:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA15356 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 21:48:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id VAA31171 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 21:22:30 -0500 Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 21:22:30 -0500 Message-Id: <199709270222.VAA31171@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #362 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@LISTS.IO.COM Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Friday, September 26 1997 Volume 01 : Number 362 In this digest: Re: IN> Thor deceased? alternate theeory (silly) IN> SPOON!!! Re: IN> Needing Light for Darkness (reply in bulk) Re: IN> just a thought Re: IN> Lucifer & The Big Lie (was Malakim, Lucifer) Re: IN> Typical adventures - newbie Q's Re: IN> some more questions Re: IN> In Nomine Live-Action Re: IN> SPOON!!! Re: IN> just a thought Re: IN> Needing Light for Darkness Re: IN> What good are tethers? Re: IN> What good are tethers? Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #360 Re: IN> The Prophecy and source materials Re: IN> SPOON!!! Re: IN> Needing Light for Darkness Re: IN> just a thought Re: IN> The Calabim Experiment -- Document Number: CVX-034-DC-00 Re: IN> A thought - opinions wanted IN> Song of Projection Question IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #360 Re: IN> SPOON!!! Re: IN> What good are tethers? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 23:06:04 +0200 (CEST) From: Haavard Roenne Faanes Subject: Re: IN> Thor deceased? alternate theeory (silly) On Fri, 26 Sep 1997, Daiv Barr wrote: > Maybe he has faked his death. Maybe he retreated to, and is hiding, biding his > time, untril h may rise again. Where would he hide? and what would he do whilehe > is hiding? maybe, just maybe, he is at IOU, the dean of physical education > (whatever they cal it there) and the coach of the Team... > maybe I should start having my morning cofe before I start reading this list... I'd been thinking about something similar myself. Or rather that the malakim thought, they killed him, but he was plunged into the the corporeal, with amnesia. Slighly inspired by Nine Princes in Amber, by Roger Zelazny(spl?) But I like the "marvel theory' too. In any case, Thor will be appearing in my upcoming campaign at some point. Haavard Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caroll ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 16:26:11 -0500 (CDT) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: IN> SPOON!!! The following was the result of a humorous discussion regarding characters from 'The Tick' as they would be in an In Nomine world. We made up a new Song, Sight, to account for an artifact's workings: anyone with suggestions for Etherial or Celestial Sight (if they aren't already being worked up), feel free to chip in. THE TICK Malakite Servitor of the Sword CORPOREAL FORCES - 5 (Strength 12, Agility 8) ETHERIAL FORCES - 2 (Intelligence 4, Precision 4) CELESTIAL FORCES - 2 (Will 6, Perception 2) Vessel: Human/4 Attunements: Malakite of the Sword Artifacts: Viewmaster Crimescope/3 Servant: Speak (Familiar/1) Skills: Acrobatics/4, Climbing/4, Fighting/1, Running/1 Song: Shields (Etherial/6) Discord: Discolored/2 (blue second skin) Oaths: (pre-rebirth) I will never knowingly allow a demon to live. I will never surrender or accept defeat. I will not kill, excepting demons. (post-rebirth) I will protect the City and its people from all evil. I will learn something with every battle. I will not leave my dishes in the sink without washing them. Arthur hates that. I will repay Arthur for the damage deposit on his apartment. I am MIGHTY! (etc. etc. etc.) The mysterious creature known to humanity as The Tick is an example of what can happen to an angel who came within one Soul hit of becoming a Remnant. He retains his angelic quality, and he has had his meager Celestial Forces restored, but he retains little or no memory of his true Heavenly nature. In fact, this Malakite of Laurence, never much on intelligence or perception, has taken the notion into his head that he is, of all things, a superhero. What Laurence, the Tick's Archangel, thinks of this development, he has not said. It is known, however, that this angel was not in the best graces of his Superior before his near-death, having grown Discordant in his former life. It is possible that the Tick's current mission, to rid The City of evil and crime, is an unconscious effort to redeem himself to his Superiors. Most angels, though, just think he's nuts. The Tick's corporeal form appears as a hulking strong human, roughly seven feet tall, wearing a stupid Spandex costume with deely-boppers on the cowl. In fact, the costume is part of the Tick's body, an outward expression of his Discord. The fabric cannot be removed from his body; the only clothing-type function it performs is to let him put things in his pockets. The Tick, unaware of his angelic nature (and being only vaguely aware of reality in general) never calls upon his Superior- much to Lawrence's relief. He also never leaves his vessel, having forgotten how to manifest in Celestial form. He uses his Resonance and his one remaining Song subconsciously, not knowing why he can survive nearly anything and (occasionally) detect evil. He just figures it's part of being the World's Greatest Superhero. The Tick crashes in the apartment of a former accountant and superhero wannabe named Arthur. Arthur has a moth-suit, in which he can fly unsteadily, and he serves as the Tick's sane, mild-mannered sidekick, totally unaware of the Tick's role in the grand scheme of things. Perhaps in time Arthur will become a Soldier of God, but for now he's too busy trying to keep the Tick's tiny mind within shouting distance of the real world. The Tick only has two possessions, given to him shortly after his 'inspiration' by an unknown angelic agency. The first is a view-finder which has been imbued with the Corpoal Song of Sight (see footnote); he calls it his Viewmaster Crimescope, and uses it to spy out the nearest evil or danger to him. SPEAK Familiar (Reliever) CORPOREAL FORCES - 1 (Strength 1, Agility 3) ETHEREAL FORCES - 2 (Intelligence 5, Precision 3) CELESTIAL FORCES - 1 (Will 3, Perception 1) Vessel: Capybara/1 Skills: Dodge/3, Emote/2 Songs: Healing (Etherial/4), Projection (Etherial/4) The other item is not so much an item as a familiar, stumbled across during an early adventure. While in a dazed stupor, a Reliever inhabiting the vessel of a capybara (a giant rodent from Central and South America) spoke to him in his dazed dreams; he adopted the capybara, naming it Speak 'cause that's what you do!', his faithful crime dog. As a familiar, Speak's main task is to channel the Tick's more delusional moments into a harmless pastime, sp. training Speak to fight crime, leaving him lucent for his fights against crime and evil. Speak has remained silent about his opinion of the Tick, but most observers feel his vessel's mournful, apathetic look says it all. FOOTNOTE: Song of Sight, Corporeal. Allows the Singer to see and watch a chosen target, or a specified target (the nearest telephone, for instance) within a range of 20 yards multiplied by the amount of Essence pumped into the song. Essence Requirement: 1; Degree of Disturbance: 1 point per Essence used, plus the check digit. ROLEPLAYING THE TICK AS AN IN NOMINE CHARACTER First off, the Tick is not really insane. He's just stupid and out of touch with reality. If someone is patient enough to go through and explain how all his delusions (and he has many) are mistaken, he will accept it- however, if a person only explains away one of his mistaken concepts, he'll just integrate the new concept in with the rest of his flawed worldview. The Tick is not a Balseraph, nor does he have an Insanity Discord; he just copes with life as he Percieves it. The Tick's mind is strictly focused on the Corporeal realm. He's not bound to his Vessel, but he's forgotten how to leave it. (He's had a couple of out-of-body experiences, but that's as close as it gets.) His tie to the Symphony is faint, but present; he is not Outcast or Fallen, at least not yet. Play his remaining angelic abilities as if his subconscious mind, still remembering his true nature, is playing 'guardian angel' while the conscious mind blunders its way through battle. The Tick usually doesn't sense disturbances in the Symphony, but if he does, he will take it as some new superpower he's discovered and play with it like a child with a bright new shiny toy that he doesn't quite know what to do with. If he sees Celestials in action, he'll do what's most amusing for the RP situation- if he fails his Resonance roll, for instance, he might try to protect the demons from the angels. (He'll be really sheepish when he figures out the truth, and will insist on helping undo his error.) The Tick has someone very powerful, on the side of good, watching over him. It's not Lawrence, Dominic, or Michael- these three Archangels would prefer to have nothing to do with the Tick, and Lawrence has stayed his hand against his Servitor only because of the obvious Intervention on the Tick's behalf. We know the Almighty has -some- purpose for the Tick, and the more popular suspects for his guardian- Eli, Yves and Janus- are notably silent on the subject. In fact, the only Archangel with much to say about the Tick is Gabriel. His glorious, selfless, -mindless- quest to punish the evil and bring justice to the City appeals to her twisted mind and disillusioned heart. Plus she's got all his action figures. }:-{D Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | Marc sponsored the first http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | Chinese buffet restraunt; c/o White Lightning Productions | it was Haagenti who came http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | up with MSG. Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- Celestial folklore http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 18:01:53 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Needing Light for Darkness (reply in bulk) At 11:07 PM -0500 9/25/97, Mark Allen wrote: >Another brain twitch: What if Hell is really Alpha Complex? Hmmmm. Note to >SJ Games: We need GURPS Paranoia.) Hell isn't Alpha Complex -- only Vapula's Principality. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 18:03:30 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> just a thought At 11:20 PM -0600 9/25/97, Kingsley Lintz wrote: >> And sometimes they're the ^%$#^% angels in the Marches who give me >> some great idea *WAAAAAY* too early in the morning and I can't >> get back to sleep till I've written it down. > Funny...I get those from Andrealphus... I had one or two of those as well, but most of those, I don't have to *write down*. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 17:58:26 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Lucifer & The Big Lie (was Malakim, Lucifer) At 11:15 PM -0400 9/25/97, dwood@skipjack.bluecrab.org wrote: >Previously, from the desktop of "Emily K. Dresner" > [...] >>I don't see honor, or even a twisted sense --- mostly because I see >>Lucifer being the mover and the shaker behind the entire system. It may >>have been one of his MOTIVATIONS, but one (I hope!) can be honorable >>without being a Malakim. > >(I could end up with a really strange message thread out of this...) > >Malakim already have a fitting counterpart in Hell -- vastly different in >many ways, but in certain respects frighteningly similar. They're called >*Lilim*. > >No, really. Think about it... The Malakim resonance basically says "I'll >honor my side of the deal." The Lilim resonance says "*You* honor *your* >side of the deal..." And can say, "And I'll honor my side, too," if they must. That's scary. Maybe Lilith makes Lilim from dismembered Malakim. ("Ah, another one damaged, nearly killed. *Thank* you. Now, my child...") - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 18:00:25 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Typical adventures - newbie Q's At 11:27 PM +0000 9/25/97, Nathaniel Eliot wrote: >> >And then there is the overall feel I get, that the came could >> >degenerate into Vampire: the Masquarade with different trappings quite >> >easily. >> >> Could, though we've found the feel to be vastly different. (Of course, >> we play with brightness turned up a little above medium, and contrast >> turned down a little.) > >Geez - that's a good way of putting it... Thank you. >My ideas tend to put the brightness a little below medium, almost no >contrast, with a screwy tint (and a twitchy vertical hold...) 8^/ Mmmmmmmm, that's fun too! >Plus, I prefer the big-screen TV... I *really* like the set of several TVs that the local Disney store has -- sometimes they use it like one huge-screen, sometimes they're all individual, sometimes four of them are being one big screen while the others are individual... Kyrio TV! >> Just make sure that not everyone they meet is a celestial, soldier, >> or child of the Grigori... > >And make sure that important things in history often happen *without* >supernatural interference. If I catch the guy who wrote the Chicago >Fire, the eruption of Pompei, and lots of other historical events >all into the backgrounds of two fighting elder vampires... You'll introduce him to a Malakite of somebody? - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 18:09:18 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> some more questions At 6:48 PM +1000 9/26/97, Karen J Davies wrote: >I will be running my first In Nomine campaogn next Saturday with my >experienced GURPS group. I thought to start with I would use "A Feast of >Blades". Watch out for Kyriotates, especially of Jean. We got the baggage before Amanda because our Kyrio jumped through the TV to one of the rescue workers. And the pigeon patrol spotted the target going to his hotel. [...] >2)How many ways can a Celestial be detected? I seem to recall somebaody >mentioning that somebody had done a write up on this subject so maybe I >could be pointed in that direction. Check http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/articles/Tips.html If you can't access URLs, tell me in private Email, and I'll send you the (HTML-marked-up) text file. >3)How can a mortal/Soldier/Undead tell a Celestial/Soldier/undead from a >mortal? If they can sense noise, and the other person makes some Symphonic disturbance... Otherwise. Them's the breaks! >Eg, could a Demon tell that a Sodlier of Hell was actually a SOldier of God >in disguise? Nope. Couldn't tell that a mundane was actually a Soldier in disguise, either. Life's tough sometimes! (Not knowing who's one of you, who's an enemy, who's just an innocent bystander... That's one of the neat things with IN, you ask me.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 18:24:54 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Live-Action At 2:38 PM -0300 9/26/97, Andre Ribeiro wrote: >MarkDEddy@aol.com wrote: [...]> >> Mark (I wanna be a Cherub of David!) > > I just can't wait to meet the Lilim players... :-) > > Andre I'm sure they'd dress appropriately, most dread Prince Andre. (Hey, another reason to wander around in the spandex and leather...) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 17:19:35 -0500 (CDT) From: Donald G Bixler Subject: Re: IN> SPOON!!! > The following was the result of a humorous discussion regarding characters > from 'The Tick' as they would be in an In Nomine world. We made up a new > Song, Sight, to account for an artifact's workings: anyone with suggestions > for Etherial or Celestial Sight (if they aren't already being worked up), > feel free to chip in. I'll see if I can dig up some ideas for those. > CORPOREAL FORCES - 5 (Strength 12, Agility 8) > ETHERIAL FORCES - 2 (Intelligence 4, Precision 4) Hmm... 4= Above-average human adult. I'd say one force and I3 P1; he's easily distracted. ;'} > CELESTIAL FORCES - 2 (Will 6, Perception 2) I'd also give him Corporeal Form (IE instant armor) > Kris Overstreet Oops da Ogre, who had the Evil Midnight Bomber What Bombs at Midnight written up as a Soldier of Belial... mudgb4@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 97 18:27 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> just a thought >> I tend to think of Bill Gates as a Soldier of Vapula who's gotten out of >> control. Or maybe not... Vapula *is* a Habbalite. >> > >I like to think of Bill Gates as a human, like Hitler and Nero. Humans >can be far more evil then demons. I didn't say he's *always* been a Soldier. I figure he got recruited when he snowed IBM into buying MS-DOS. That's the sort of thing that would draw Vap's attention. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 97 18:39 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Needing Light for Darkness >So let's get real basic here. Pizza. The existence of pizza means at least >the existence of the conceptual concept of no pizza--as terrifying as that >may be. If you've got a concept of something, you automatically get at >least the concept of not having that something. Actual existence is neither >here nor there; we're talking concepts here. Perhaps the *concept*, but not necessarily the reality. The notion that comes to my mind in this regard is mass. If I recall my relativity correctly, the notion of a universe containing no mass is essentially a null concept. For the universe to exist at all, it must contain mass (which may be in the form of energy as well). Also, one could consider the Heaven/Hell, good/evil pairings as polar opposites -- things with numerically-opposed signs. But parts of reality do involve forces like gravity which appear to be strictly unipolar -- the notion of a "negative" gravitational force is supposedly not possible by modern physics (at least the general-relativity flavor). So I don't particularly subscribe to the notion of extracting too much from analogies with light.... I tend to view Evil as not so much the absence of Good, but as its negative values. But it would be perfectly possible to construct a universe (if you were God...) where Good was a unipolar quantity -- there would still be a range of values, making comparisons possible, but no actual *negative* values. Or you could do the same with Evil.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 22:45:50 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: Re: IN> What good are tethers? On Fri, 26 Sep 1997 13:52:16 -0400 (EDT), Casca wrote: >What purpose do tethers serve? I don't see any reason for their >existence. Sure, they make it easier to go to Heaven or Hell, but the >same can be done by assume Celestial form and ascending/descending. They >make it easier to summon the Superior they're consecrated to by adding, >what, a +2? Big deal. Celestials can work off dissonance at a tether, and >that's about all the use I can find for them. Think of them as Celestial fortresses on Earth. The Celestials need some sort of fortified base, and you might as well have one where reinforcements can descend easily. Also, it seems to be a common assumption that the noise masks what's going on inside the Tether, allowing some things to be done in secret--you might activate your Numinous Corpus where it can't be heard. Angelic Tethers have the special property that a demon can't go celestial in it; so even if demons overrun a Tether they can't soul-kill any of the angels, just traumatize them. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 97 18:46 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> What good are tethers? >What purpose do tethers serve? I don't see any reason for their >existence. Sure, they make it easier to go to Heaven or Hell, but the >same can be done by assume Celestial form and ascending/descending. But Tethers are normally citadels of a sort -- it's much safer to do this in a Tether. > They >make it easier to summon the Superior they're consecrated to by adding, >what, a +2? Big deal. Celestials can work off dissonance at a tether, and >that's about all the use I can find for them. They can also be used for fast transport around the corporeal realm, if your Superior wants you somewhere quickly -- go up one Tether, and down another. You can't normally do this -- you return from the celestial realm where you last left the corporeal, if you just switch realms on your own. >As far as I can tell, they're big and noisy targets. But I get the >feeling that there should eb more to them then that. A tether to >Andrealphus should increase the level or moral turpitude in an area, >thereby furthering his word, but as far as canon goes that's not >supported. If tethers don't increase the influence of a superior's Word >on the corporeal plane, why go to the expense and trouble of making one? I think you've got it backwards -- a Tether forms in an area where there is already a strong influence of the Superior's Word. Presumably the Word-bound can draw power from their Tethers. They may be less useful to lowly Servitors. Remember we don't really know much about the powers of the Word-bound and Superiors, except that they have lots of power and Essence to play with. Tethers are likely to be one aspect of that. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 19:08:52 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #360 > >Especially when many angels didn't really have to fall to achieve that > >Free Will. How many archangels will micromanage their servants to the > >point where they can take no independent actions. There's Jean, and ...? > > Even there, the angel always has the 'Ooops, I accidentally > flicked off the power switch just before that email arrived' or > 'Oops, I must have a really bad net.connection today, boss' or 'Oh > dear *crackle* *hiss* ... is that noise on the line?' options ;-) Do you think he'd be fooled? Especially with confirmed delivery and confirmed reading settings for email? Technology is the *really* long arm of the law... Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com "Beware the advise of successful people; they do not seek company." - Dogbert ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 19:13:58 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> The Prophecy and source materials > I also recommend C. S. Lewis's "Preface to Paradise Lost," > especially for those who would kinda like to read Milton but > aren't sure they want to put all that much energy into it. > Lewis's book is much shorter, written in modern English prose > (rather than antique English verse), and might just convince > you to read the original. Whether it does or not, it will give > you several interesting ideas about demonic psychology and > the anatomy of celestial forms. Mmm - thank you. I have been looking at the copy of Paradise Lost I downloaded, and really dislike the idea of reading it at this point. You see, I tend to speed read, which involves reading bits and pieces, and stringing up the rest mentally. I can't do this in a language I have to work to understand... Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com "Beware the advise of successful people; they do not seek company." - Dogbert ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 18:18:32 -0500 (CDT) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> SPOON!!! >> The following was the result of a humorous discussion regarding characters >> from 'The Tick' as they would be in an In Nomine world. We made up a new >> Song, Sight, to account for an artifact's workings: anyone with suggestions >> for Etherial or Celestial Sight (if they aren't already being worked up), >> feel free to chip in. > >I'll see if I can dig up some ideas for those. > >> CORPOREAL FORCES - 5 (Strength 12, Agility 8) >> ETHERIAL FORCES - 2 (Intelligence 4, Precision 4) > >Hmm... 4= Above-average human adult. I'd say one force and I3 P1; he's >easily distracted. ;'} Leaving aside the fact that that'd leave a force floating somewhere, the Tick is stupid by Celestial terms, but not stone stupid; he just burns most of his mental capacity in trying to figure out the world, with the only info he has to work from being flawed already. And his plans work... sometimes. }:-{D >> CELESTIAL FORCES - 2 (Will 6, Perception 2) > >I'd also give him Corporeal Form (IE instant armor) Good point. Add Song of Corporeal Form/3. Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | Marc sponsored the first http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | Chinese buffet restraunt; c/o White Lightning Productions | it was Haagenti who came http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | up with MSG. Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- Celestial folklore http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 23:45:52 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: Re: IN> Needing Light for Darkness On Fri, 26 Sep 97 18:39 EDT, Walter Milliken wrote: >Perhaps the *concept*, but not necessarily the reality. Exactly. >Also, one could consider the Heaven/Hell, good/evil pairings as polar >opposites -- things with numerically-opposed signs. But parts of >reality do involve forces like gravity which appear to be strictly >unipolar -- the notion of a "negative" gravitational force is supposedly >not possible by modern physics (at least the general-relativity flavor). Well, light is unipolar, too. A photon has energy. Dark is the lack of light, the lack of photons, not the presence of anti-protons with anti-energy. >So I don't particularly subscribe to the notion of extracting too much >from analogies with light... Agree. Analogies can only go so far. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 20:08:41 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> just a thought > > And sometimes they're the ^%$#^% angels in the Marches who give me > > some great idea *WAAAAAY* too early in the morning and I can't > > get back to sleep till I've written it down. > > Funny...I get those from Andrealphus... It's a good thing I'm lazy, or I'd work on Nifnial, Lilim of Dirty Dreams... Which brings me to a question - can a Need satisfied in the Marches be translated into a Corporeal world Geas? And does the fact that it is a dream change levels any? Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com "Beware the advise of successful people; they do not seek company." - Dogbert ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 20:08:41 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> The Calabim Experiment -- Document Number: CVX-034-DC-00 > [1] Linda, Calabite Baron of Destructive Testing > (need I say more ;-) ). Give us stats! Give us resonances! Yea! Never really liked Vap's ban on Calabim, because they all tend to fall directly under his Word, which probably translates better as "Worse Living Through Technology". You need somebody to encourage the tech to break... So, bravo. I like it, a lot. Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com "Beware the advise of successful people; they do not seek company." - Dogbert ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 20:08:41 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> A thought - opinions wanted > >[I am such a contradiction - I love gritty, I love epics. The two > >shouldn't fit together, but in my mind, they are starting to...] > > _Beowulf_ is a gritty epic... Yep - that's kinda the style I like. Nice point. > >I may read _Paradise_ at some point, but don't bet on it. Maybe one > >of my classes next year will cover it. The Prophecy is a little > >more doable (though from what I saw of it, it's a horror flick, > >which bore me to no end). > > it is, after a fashion, a horror movie, though in the sense of _The > Omen_ more than, say, _Hellraiser_... it's not particularly gory, > either - you might say that it is more of a tragic story than a horrific > one... plus, the idea of a Second War in Heaven is really spiff... Hey, I've got nothing to do tonight, I've got a video rental card - what the Hell? > >Hmm - I'm coming from the exact opposite side, that the universe is > >very objective. Plus, I played with the Mage idea mentally for > >about two months before giving up. > > well, that may be because the people who wrote _Mage_ didn't really > understand what they were doing... i like the *idea* of _Mage_, but the > execution is terribly flawed... I dropped most of their execution like a wet rag, but it still doesn't work very well. It might work with *really* good RPers, or in a good story, but for most gamers, it promises to degenerate into Calvin-ball. > >And almost every metaphysical > >game out there goes for the "spirits are a manifestation of Man's > >beliefs"; it was starting to grate. > > well, i think that _Voodoo_ doesn't really come from this perspective, > except perhaps in the interpretation that the spirits can take on forms > that are meaningful to humans... but the spirits themselves are > independent, free-willed creatures that don't require humans in order to > exist (in my own interpretation)... It was mentioned at one point, and it hit a raw nerve, I guess. There are other small things about it that turned me off to it as more than a sourcebook - it seemd too closed. The main bad guys were defined, there was very little feeling of space to games. With IN, I haven't gotten (as) much of that... > >When I think dark, I think White Wolf, which tries for the > >"everybody is bad, everything sucks" school of depressive angst. > >And then I think of a toilet bowl... > > well, their problem is trying to write adult-themed games from an > adolescent perspective... > > you'll note that all of their games come from a perspective of "coming > into power" - you become a vampire, you learn about your werewolf > heritage, whatever... IN is fascinating in that it takes a very > different tack: you have always been a Celestial, and don't have any > time that you were not... it is not a game about growing up, it is a > game about being... I kinda liked the coming into power thread from WW, though after the second game that seemed to cover it, it got a little boring. The standard feel for them tends to be "the world sucks, and at most you can be a stopgap, or maybe fix yourself". > i said that moral choices were difficult, not that they were > impossible... if you are tough, smart, and lucky, you can find a > situation in which you could just kill Asmodeus, without serious > repercussions to your own side in the War... chances are, though, you > will splatter on someone's windshield - and, more likely still, such > luck will evade even the toughest and smartest... Okay - we're approaching the same thing from different sides, then. I tend to use heavy moral conundrums rarely, because they don't appear very often in regular life - even if angels lead extraordinary lives, they should not have to deal with many. The main problems facing them will be getting to the truth and acting on their morals once they have it. > for tone, i guess you could say that i like the feel of a Raymond > Chandler novel: "Down these mean streets a man must go who is not > himself mean"... Chandler was a hero, an idealist poet masquerading as a > genre hack, and that one line is perhaps one of the best ever penned in > English... Chandler understood the absurdity of idealism, but never > abandoned it... I like the line...hmmm, I feel a plot seed. > another example of the kind of murky, bizarre moral conundrum i > enjoy is the end of _Watchmen_... i look for ways to include that > sort of distressingly difficult situation in my own games... Oh, bother - I assume you're refering to the comic? I haven't encountered it (though if your recommendation on _The Omen_ is good, I may have to). > Happiness is being left comatose by your lovers... Would I be bragging if...nah. Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com "God is dead, and no-one cares, If there is a hell, I'll see you there." - NIN ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 00:42:19 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: IN> Song of Projection Question The Song of Projection lets you project your celestial self somewhere else. You can clearly see and hear, but can you act? Can you perform other Songs from the location of your projection? You can take celestial damage, but can you attack celestially from your projection? Can your projection use celestial artifacts? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 18:38:11 -0700 From: "Chris Eng" Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #360 > From: David Edelstein > > Although this list is unmoderated, I think we could do without the > gratuitous profanity. Now, unless you have a radically different dictionary from mine, yours should contain an entry something along the lines of, "Gratuitous: unnecessary or unwarranted; unjustified." In my initial entry, I used the phrases, "fucking bitch" and "piece of shite". If someone was offended by this then I apologise and in future I will preface my entries with warnings about swearing and/or sexual content and/or backwards messages, but i object to the word "gratuitous". To my way of thinking, there is nothing gratuitous about a husband, interrupted in the act of abusing his wife, calling the interloper a "*uck*ng b**tc*". I would consider this pretty much true to form. What do YOU think he would have said? "Shameless harlot"? "Frolicsome trollop"? Probably not. As for "**ece *f shit*" I guess she could have said something else, but she was fairly incensed at the time, as I would be, or I hope most normal decent people would be. Her life is dedicated to sheltering and protecting these women, making sure they are all right mentally and physically, and she walks in on a man using his fists on his wife in a rather extensive manner. "Ka-ka doo-doo head" understandably was not the first thing out of her mouth. In those particular contexts, I don't think that the use of either phrase could be considered "unjustified". > Now, I don't see why Suzanne should be the "Angel of Housewives". Seems to > me "Angel of Abused Women" would be far more appropriate. Most housewives > aren't abused and a lot of abused women aren't housewives. That's not entirely true. Do you consider calling your spouse, "Stupid," abuse? It is. Just because it doesn't leave bruises doesn't mean it's not damaging. There are many different kinds of abuse and the physical aspect is only one of many. Most housewives are railroaded into thinking that it is their duty and obligation to perform chores and housework, take care of children (in the case that there are some), make all the meals, and take care of any incidentals like yardwork. Most suffer some kind of loss of self-worth because they have been guilted into thinking that they have done their job improperly. At the VERY LEAST most housewives are under-appreciated. It is a thankless job. Incidentally, a number of a very high order (I believe it's somewhere in the high 60%'s) of women admitted to hospital emergency rooms are there as a result of spousal abuse. As for why she should be the Angel of Housewives as opposed to Abused Women, well haven't I already addressed that? Under her Special Rites I mentioned that she regains Essence for spending an hour increasing a housewife's self-esteem. She loves housewives. They are her flock and she spends her time making sure they are generally happy. The fact that she spends her time hunting down people that make them unhappy isn't out of the domain of her Word at all. She is ecstatic sitting around in a coffee clatch, just shooting the **i* about Gladys's new hairdo or Roxanne's lover. If she could be assured that all the housewives in the world were happy creatures, then that's probably all she would do. She loves these people, and she doesn't want any harm to come to them - physical, psychic, or otherwise. She isn't the angel of Abused Women because that's not her word. It's not her jurisdiction. She cares very much for rape victims, but she can't care for everyone, and unless an abusive act directly affects her or a housewife or she just happens to come across it, she doesn't have the time or resources to follow them up. (Boy, make her sound like a detective.) By the way she has a low opinion of spousal rape. A VERY low opinion. Chris Eng, Mundane Servitor of Suzanne ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 20:56:00 -0500 (CDT) From: Donald G Bixler Subject: Re: IN> SPOON!!! > >Hmm... 4= Above-average human adult. I'd say one force and I3 P1; he's > >easily distracted. ;'} > > Leaving aside the fact that that'd leave a force floating somewhere, the > Tick is stupid by Celestial terms, but not stone stupid; he just burns most > of his mental capacity in trying to figure out the world, with the only info > he has to work from being flawed already. Hey, he lost a force in that nasty incident where he was left with one Celestial Force. And an Intelligence of three is low-average human, not stone stupid. He's certainly dim by celestial standards, but that seems the appropriate level to me. And the lack of Precision is made up for by the high Will. On inportant stuff (IE thwarting nefarious schemes) he can rely on his iron Will to keep a steady course, but if it's not _that_ vital, well he has a short att... Huh? Were you saying something? > Good point. Add Song of Corporeal Form/3. Yup. Nigh-invunerability and all that. > Kris Overstreet, will write for food... Oops da Ogre, anyone feel up to doing the Chainsaw Vigilante? (Gabe's?) mudgb4@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 20:18:59 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> What good are tethers? > Angelic Tethers have the special property that a demon can't go celestial > in it; so even if demons overrun a Tether they can't soul-kill any of the > angels, just traumatize them. Can't you still hit people with, say, the Song of Celestial Light? (Numinous Corpus I'd say you have to actually be Celestial yourself for it to manifest that way, but NC is a basically Corporeal Song...the Celestial Songs I'd think could be directed to the Celestial plane from the Corporeal, though, being basically Celestial, not the other way around..) ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #362 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.