From owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Mon Sep 29 13:03:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA03759 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 13:03:17 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id MAA30887 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 12:10:09 -0500 Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 12:10:09 -0500 Message-Id: <199709291710.MAA30887@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #365 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@LISTS.IO.COM Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, September 29 1997 Volume 01 : Number 365 In this digest: IN> The Prophecy IN> Angel of Housewives IN> sources Re: IN> The Prophecy Re: IN> A thought - opinions wanted Re: IN> Angel of Housewives Re: IN> sources IN> LARPS - resolving actions Re: IN> Fisuba, The Demon of Abuse Re: IN> A thought - opinions wanted IN> Angels on the List Re: IN> The Prophecy Re: IN> A thought - opinions wanted RE: IN> Re:The various goals of major demons Re: IN> Angels on the List Re: IN> Re:The various goals of major demons (Lilith) Re: IN> Angels on the List Re: IN> Re:The various goals of major demons (Lilith) Re: IN> A thought - opinions wanted Re: IN> Re:The various goals of major demons (Lilith) Re: IN> Re:The various goals of major demons (Lilith) Re: IN> Re:The various goals of major demons (Lilith) IN> Angels on the list Re: IN> Angel of Housewives Re: IN> Re:The various goals of major demons Re: IN> Re:The various goals of major demons (Lilith) Re: IN> The various goals of major demons ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 04:20:33 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> The Prophecy Funny, I thought Gabriel was a Balseraph. He lied constantly and constructed his own unique view of reality, and it was clearly pride in his divine status that caused him to rebel. I see Simon as an Elohite, and Uzziel as a Calabite (or a seriously dissonant Malakite...) - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 04:20:34 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Angel of Housewives >>>Chris Eng, Sensitive Man of The 90s (or maybe just some guy who isn't willing to view women in the same light that they have been for the last couple of millenia. If that makes me sensitive, then "Aw, shoot," I guess I'm sensitive. Like that's some kind of grave insult or something ...)<<< You're right, debating the status of women in society is beyond the scope of this list. However, my point with my admittedly sarcastic comment is that you have presumed several times to lecture me (and the list) on spousal abuse and gender discrimination, as if you are some wonderfully enlightened and knowledgeable person on the subject. In fact, you practically ooze self-righteous moral superiority. How do you know what my experiences and attitudes are? How do you know I haven't read more books than you on the subject, and indeed, had personal experience with what you're pontificating about? How sweet, you "aren't willing to view women in the same light that they have been for the last couple of millenia." That's just precious. I'm so happy you told us violence against women is a bad thing. Here I thought maybe it was a good thing. And I am sure women everywhere are swooning at your extraordinary sensitivity. - -David (I'm being sarcastic. In case you can't tell.) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 20:45:37 +1000 From: jumpshot@iniaccess.net.au (Karen J Davies) Subject: IN> sources While people are discussing good source material etc with an IN flavour, I think Memnoch The Devil by Anne Rice has got to get a mention. Its interpretation of "The SHining One" is simply brilliant. A must read. JD ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 04:28:18 -0700 (PDT) From: lugaid@seanet.com Subject: Re: IN> The Prophecy On 1997-09-28 in_nomine-l@lists.io.com said to lugaid@seanet.com >Funny, I thought Gabriel was a Balseraph. He lied constantly and >constructed his own unique view of reality, and it was clearly >pride in his divine status that caused him to rebel. this is a good argument, and could be supported in some places ("there are some things in the world that talking monkeys do")... but, i think, the deeply emotional attacks that he makes when frustrated (think of the scene in the diner with his second undead servant, and how he nearly loses his temper completely when interrogating Simon in the abandoned schoolroom), and his insistence that he is an Angel, are more telling... >I see Simon as an Elohite, and Uzziel as a Calabite (or a seriously >dissonant Malakite...) Simon is, as i see it, almost certainly an Elohite... but, for reasons i gave earlier, i think that Uziel is probably a Djinn of Saminga, who has managed to attune his Resonance to Simon... there really isn't anything to indicate that he might be a Calabite (or Malakite!), while there is the "dogged determination" that he does show in waiting for Simon to come home... and, as a Djinn of Saminga, he could kill the object of his Resonance with impunity... Slan agus Beannachtai, Lugaid MacRobert Don't flame me! I'm not rational! Net-Tamer V 1.08X - Test Drive ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 04:28:07 -0700 (PDT) From: lugaid@seanet.com Subject: Re: IN> A thought - opinions wanted On 1997-09-28 in_nomine-l@lists.io.com said to lugaid@seanet.com >> i thought about Mercurian, but a Mercurian would have handled >>Thomas much better when he was in the apartment... >Maybe he was a Cherub? >Wait, I have it. Cherub of Dreams, who used to be attuned to Thomas >for years. Just as Thomas was being confirmed, a Servator of Fear >attacked him, and Thomas saw that because of the long attunement. oh, yes! sweet... also fits the "i was in the Church with you that day, i know what you saw" bit... >Yup. Okay - Habbalah of Saminga. Ethereal Discord - Delusion: I am >Gabriel (backed with an attunement from Belial). Kobal loves the >whole thing, probably, and is just waiting for some angel of Fire to >put a beat-down on his ass. excellent... so, now, is there a particular reason that Kobal is involving himself, or is he just getting off on twisting the heck out of things? >> also, it works really well when Simon asks him, "When did you >>lose your Grace?" if both were once Elohim together, and Gabriel >>still thinks of himself as an Angel... >They don't need to both be Elohim for that; it'll work with another >Choir. yeah, but it is more tragic if they were both brothers directly... what can i say? i think tragedy is fun... ;) >>(i still love that line, though, "I am the >>*first* angel, loved once above all others"...) >He said that, and I thought "Yves?". Then I remembered they weren't >doing IN... isn't Lucifer still the first Created Angel in IN? let me check... hmmm... "legend has it" that Yves was first... well, not in my world - Lucifer has to be the first, it's the fear of any firstborn, that s/he will be replaced in his/her parents' eyes when more come along... that is his motive for starting the Rebellion... >Shedim of Saminga, hiding in a dead body to avoid Game? Saminga >sends a servant to drag it back to Hell before Game gets to it - the >creature's a Renegade, but has some useful information. Game sends >a servant, to stop the Angel that's hovering between destroying the >Shedim and trying to Redeem him, to stop Saminga's boys, and to >recover the Shedim. In the end, after the shaman's pulled a 111 on >their exorcise roll and the Shedim was not only booted but >soul-killed, Lucy cut his losses and ran... i like that version... works for me... i think that i will add these events to my own continuity... >So why was the Bible there, which fit the story almost exactly? >Kobal, or one of his, thought it would be funny, and knew enough >about every player to fashion a story that would fit their quirks - >"Gabriel's" insanity and "Lucifer's" running lie, in particular. It >backfired, because it ended up restoring faith to Thomas. this is good, but that leaves me wondering why Kobal got involved... it would be a copout to say that he just wanted to mess with everyone's heads... maybe the Shedim had some dirt on him or his, and Kobal decided to try to ensure that it wouldn't come out of things alive? game, set, and match to Kobal? so the "backfire" wasn't a big setback, since he really had no interest in Thomas, except as an instrument to mess up everyone else's plans... and it didn't hurt that Thomas was given a great big practical joke that will probably end up with him in the nuthatch some years down the road... one worry: did Simon say anything to confirm the Second War in Heaven hypothesis? i don't remember... i think that his lines on the subject could be interpreted as simple attempts at Redeeming "Gabriel" ("sometimes you just do what you're told" and the like)... Slan agus Beannachtai, Lugaid MacRobert "Help! I've Risen and I can't Get Down!" - Jesus at a disco. Net-Tamer V 1.08X - Test Drive ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 09:17:12 -0300 From: Andre Ribeiro Subject: Re: IN> Angel of Housewives David Edelstein wrote: > >>>Chris Eng, Sensitive Man of The 90s > (or maybe just some guy who isn't willing to view women in the same light > that they have been for the last couple of millenia. > I'm so happy you told us violence against women is a bad thing. > -David What are you guys saying?!? Hey, She said 'yes' to *me*, and I *paid* for that marriage!! What do you mean I cannot even whip her a little bit?? (...) Oh, you were *not* talking about sex... Prince Andre, reveling in his new DP role... :-9 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 09:24:03 -0300 From: Andre Ribeiro Subject: Re: IN> sources Karen J Davies wrote: > While people are discussing good source material etc with an IN flavour, I > think Memnoch The Devil by Anne Rice has got to get a mention. Its > interpretation of "The SHining One" is simply brilliant. A must read. > > JD I almost posted the very same text yesterday... Anne Rice shows us a complete celestial cosmology, from her point of view - including answering things as 'Who was Jesus?', 'Where do God and Angels enter in evolucionism?', 'How does Heaven/Hell works?' and 'Is there life after death - in Heaven/Hell or etheric??' Really, a must read Andre ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 10:59:49 EST From: PERRY LLOYD Subject: IN> LARPS - resolving actions I've only been in one LARP to date; we used paper-rock-scissors to resolve actions, usually best two outta three. Maybe this is standard for LARPs, I don't know where it comes from. :) - -Perry Perry M. Lloyd Angel of Forgetfulness, Demon of Confabulation "And the Lord was very sorry that he made humankind on the earth, and it grieved his heart." - Genesis 6:6 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 11:09:05 EST From: PERRY LLOYD Subject: Re: IN> Fisuba, The Demon of Abuse >I guess a Shedim could "tag team" jumping from body to body... there's a >weird picture. Hot damn! I've been playing Shedim as possessing muliple hosts at once. _as reality shifts for a few seconds_ Well, *I'm* embarrassed. I hate it when I forget little things like that. :) Tag-teaming... that'd be messed up. - -Perry Perry M. Lloyd Angel of Forgetfulness, Demon of Confabulation "And the Lord was very sorry that he made humankind on the earth, and it grieved his heart." - Genesis 6:6 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 10:58:26 -0500 From: tom timberlake Subject: Re: IN> A thought - opinions wanted lugaid@seanet.com wrote: > >>(i still love that line, though, "I am the > >>*first* angel, loved once above all others"...) > >He said that, and I thought "Yves?". Then I remembered they weren't > >doing IN... > > isn't Lucifer still the first Created Angel in IN? let me check... > hmmm... "legend has it" that Yves was first... well, not in my world - > Lucifer has to be the first, it's the fear of any firstborn, that s/he > will be replaced in his/her parents' eyes when more come along... that > is his motive for starting the Rebellion... May I suggest an alternate reason for Lucifer's Rebellion? Too bad, you're getting it anyway! *g* Luce as Firstborn of God is cool, but the Rebellion came about because he realized how /flawed/ Mankind was and he was afraid of being held accountable for what the laterborns had done when Daddy got home from a hard day at the office. *g* Abba: "...and why did you let them eat of the apple? you know they weren't ready yet for that knowledge, you are the Firstborn, it's your responsibility to keep your little brothers and sisters out of trouble when I AM is busy. go to your room while I think about what I am going to do with you." After which Lucifer ran away and got into a fight with Michael and Michael's Host when they tried to keep him from running and them being blamed for letting him go. But Michael, the bigger younger brother had to get extreme cause Luc wasn't fighting fair, so Luc got thrown over Heaven's edge, to fall to Hell, where he is waiting for God to say "this has gone on long enough", roll up His Sleeves, and grab Luc up by the ear, yanking his scarlet butt right out of Hell, to face the music, do his time, then kiss and make up. The prospect of Daddy getting into the game is what keeps the Superiors from running amok on Earth, which explains why the lesser Celestials are used to do the work of Heaven and Hell {yes, even Archangels have chores to do}, since Daddy is keeping such a close eye on the Major Players, though one or another sneaks off every now and then to take care of business personally. tom t., mandarin's butterfly to James the Stone Malak ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Sep 97 12:20:42 -0400 From: dwood@skipjack.bluecrab.org Subject: IN> Angels on the List Previously, from the desktop of in_nomine-digest... >> Oops! It *is* a coincidence!! My real name is Andre and... wait a >> minute... 'most dread Prince Andre'...hmmm...I *love* it...! :-) >> >> Prince Andre > >How many Superiors do we have on list, anyway? I've seen two Davids, >Andre, and of course Beth. Gabriel, Michael, Marc, Laurence, and >Jean are possible, though I don't remember any off the top of my >head. DPs don't seem to be as possible... As one of those Davids, let me refer you to a signature I've used on occasion: =====SAMPLE BEGINS HERE - -David http://www.bluecrab.org/members/dwood/ No, not THAT David. =====SAMPLE ENDS HERE Now, the other David even noticed it and said he was gaining notoriety because there were people on the list saying they weren't him. However, this is the best time to say that I was not saying that I was not THAT THAT David, but that I was saying that I was not that OTHER THAT David that you referred to above. I cannot say if THAT David was claiming to be that OTHER THAT David. There. Those two sentences say their peace sufficiently for my purposes. - -David http://www.bluecrab.org/members/dwood/ Demon of Obfuscation in service to Malphas ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 12:14:41 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> The Prophecy It would be easier to answer your letter if I knew what one you were replying to... > Funny, I thought Gabriel was a Balseraph. He lied constantly and > constructed his own unique view of reality, and it was clearly pride in his > divine status that caused him to rebel. I would agree *if* Balseraphs were the ones that believed they were angels. But given that the Habbalah are the default for that one, and that his lies didn't seem to be particularly effective, I would say no to the Balseraph. > I see Simon as an Elohite, and Uzziel as a Calabite (or a seriously > dissonant Malakite...) Simon, I almost agree with you on, except that he didn't seem to use his emotional sense when he could have. I'm leaning towards Cherub (see other post). As for Uziel, like my college noted, he was too patient for a Calabite, and as a Malakite he produces a lot of contradictions. Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com 21. Contrary to historical belief, drugs and invocations do not mix. When the shit comes down, it is vitally necessary to be able to discern between the gibbering monstrosity to throw the holy water on and the gibbering monstrosity that will fade away after a few hours, some B-complex, and a good hot bath. - How to Be a Cultist ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 12:25:20 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> A thought - opinions wanted > >Wait, I have it. Cherub of Dreams, who used to be attuned to Thomas > >for years. Just as Thomas was being confirmed, a Servator of Fear > >attacked him, and Thomas saw that because of the long attunement. > > oh, yes! sweet... also fits the "i was in the Church with you that day, > i know what you saw" bit... And it fits the fact that he did very little supernatural - he was saving Essence for the night. > >Yup. Okay - Habbalah of Saminga. Ethereal Discord - Delusion: I am > >Gabriel (backed with an attunement from Belial). Kobal loves the > >whole thing, probably, and is just waiting for some angel of Fire to > >put a beat-down on his ass. > > excellent... so, now, is there a particular reason that Kobal is > involving himself, or is he just getting off on twisting the heck out of > things? Well, at this point he is just watching. It was more a side note than anything, and may be a hook for carrying an adventure past the movie (he doesn't want Gabriel to die at the hands of Asmodeus' pack, because that just wouldn't be as funny). > >> also, it works really well when Simon asks him, "When did you > >>lose your Grace?" if both were once Elohim together, and Gabriel > >>still thinks of himself as an Angel... > > > >They don't need to both be Elohim for that; it'll work with another > >Choir. > > yeah, but it is more tragic if they were both brothers directly... what > can i say? i think tragedy is fun... ;) Or, given the Celestial way of things, lovers. > >He said that, and I thought "Yves?". Then I remembered they weren't > >doing IN... > > isn't Lucifer still the first Created Angel in IN? let me check... > hmmm... "legend has it" that Yves was first... well, not in my world - > Lucifer has to be the first, it's the fear of any firstborn, that s/he > will be replaced in his/her parents' eyes when more come along... that > is his motive for starting the Rebellion... Works better anyway - I was just taking the "legend has it" as the cannon answer to "who came first", subconsiously. > i like that version... works for me... i think that i will add these > events to my own continuity... Thank you much. So what do you say - do we go for a final write-up for Beth's page? > >So why was the Bible there, which fit the story almost exactly? > >Kobal, or one of his, thought it would be funny, and knew enough > >about every player to fashion a story that would fit their quirks - > >"Gabriel's" insanity and "Lucifer's" running lie, in particular. It > >backfired, because it ended up restoring faith to Thomas. > > maybe the Shedim had some dirt on him or his, and Kobal decided to try > to ensure that it wouldn't come out of things alive? game, set, and > match to Kobal? so the "backfire" wasn't a big setback, since he really > had no interest in Thomas, except as an instrument to mess up everyone > else's plans... and it didn't hurt that Thomas was given a great big > practical joke that will probably end up with him in the nuthatch some > years down the road... We have a winner...Kobal gets all of that effort from Thomas for the cost of a scribe and a Song of Corporeal Entropy... And since Thomas may be a Soldier (albiet one without a mentor), Angels are going to come talk to him at some point. If one of them mentions working for Gabriel... > one worry: did Simon say anything to confirm the Second War in Heaven > hypothesis? i don't remember... i think that his lines on the subject > could be interpreted as simple attempts at Redeeming "Gabriel" > ("sometimes you just do what you're told" and the like)... I dunno - I'm going to have to bang out the final plot, then re-watch the movie. One slight sticking point - Simon does use the name Gabriel several times. Maybe he's humoring the poor Habbalah... Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com 21. Contrary to historical belief, drugs and invocations do not mix. When the shit comes down, it is vitally necessary to be able to discern between the gibbering monstrosity to throw the holy water on and the gibbering monstrosity that will fade away after a few hours, some B-complex, and a good hot bath. - How to Be a Cultist ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 11:42:26 EST From: PERRY LLOYD Subject: RE: IN> Re:The various goals of major demons >From: Calabim@aol.com >Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 00:30:21 -0400 (EDT) > >It seems like every saturday I run a game of In Nomine, and every saturday >night finds me with a question-of-the-week. > >When I look at my campaign city (Chicago) I know what most of my princes >want. > >Haagenti wants to turn the "City of Big Shoulders" into the "City of Big >Appetites and Bulging Tummy's"- He loves the "Taste of Chicago" Festival. > >Kobal wants to humiliate the city, in a way that will ruin it forever.. > >Saminga has read all the WOD material on Chicago and wants to establish a >secret undead kingdom of his own... > >Malphas and Beleth want to turn it into a scary place...kind of Alpha complex >gone gothic. > >Baal wants to encourage America to embrace imperialism and military >adventurism, and wants Chicago to be the heart of the new war industry. > >Belial...well, if you know anything about Chicago's history you know what he >would like to do...again. :) >But suddenly I started wondering about Lilith. She wheels, she deals, she >scoops up souls in her web of geasa. But favors tend to be a means to an >end...so what would Lilith want? What is she after? > >I feel like this has been asked, but the question remains. > >-Calabim Good question. Perhaps she seeks COMPLETE freedom, from both Heaven and Hell. But, Chicago? Perhaps a base of operations for a group of crack freedom fighters (a.k.a. terrorists), but that's a little cheesy, isn't it? Maybe she doesn't feel the need to be tied down thinking about Chicago, preferring to have freedom from those thoughts. Maybe she just wants to hang out in Dave & Busters and "there ain't no one who can tell her otherwise!" If she give a anything for Chicago, _and_ she doesn't mind being tied down with power (it IS a responsibility), then she could be trying to give herself "free reign" over it. - -Perry Perry M. Lloyd "Aside from the pollution and bad hair styles, Jersey's _so_ cool." Sam Bean ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 13:28:29 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> Angels on the List > >> Oops! It *is* a coincidence!! My real name is Andre and... wait a > >> minute... 'most dread Prince Andre'...hmmm...I *love* it...! :-) > >> > >> Prince Andre > > > >How many Superiors do we have on list, anyway? I've seen two Davids, > >Andre, and of course Beth. Gabriel, Michael, Marc, Laurence, and > >Jean are possible, though I don't remember any off the top of my > >head. DPs don't seem to be as possible... > > However, this is the best time to say that I was not saying that I > was not THAT THAT David, but that I was saying that I was not that > OTHER THAT David that you referred to above. I cannot say if THAT > David was claiming to be that OTHER THAT David. Actually, that's what I thought you meant in the first place, until the other David took credit for being That David. Oh well, no dice... Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com 21. Contrary to historical belief, drugs and invocations do not mix. When the shit comes down, it is vitally necessary to be able to discern between the gibbering monstrosity to throw the holy water on and the gibbering monstrosity that will fade away after a few hours, some B-complex, and a good hot bath. - How to Be a Cultist ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 13:47:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Calabim@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Re:The various goals of major demons (Lilith) In a message dated 97-09-28 13:05:01 EDT, you write: << Maybe she doesn't feel the need to be tied down thinking about Chicago, preferring to have freedom from those thoughts. Maybe she just wants to hang out in Dave & Busters and "there ain't no one who can tell her otherwise!" >> I don't neccessarily think that Chicago has to be very important to any given prince or archangel. For example, in my game Andre maintains a minimal Chicago presence, but right now he's really into the california scene. Ditto for Baal. His real focus is elsewhere, but that still lets me know where Chicago fits into his view of things. So flitting back to Lilith...I think I kind of like your "Dave and Buster's" theory. Perhaps Chicago is simply a market to do business in, like any other. But that still raises the "But what does she want" question. Lilith geas' mortals...but does she claim souls after death? I would think she would have to...to keep any power base. But then what does she do with them? - -Calabim@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Sep 97 12:45:20 PDT From: "Chris Jackson" Subject: Re: IN> Angels on the List Well, my name is Christopher, so . . . Wait a minute! I don't even *have* children! Christopher B. Jackson (Not really the Archangel of Children, but I was one once. A child, I mean, not an Archangel.) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Sep 97 12:48:59 PDT From: "Chris Jackson" Subject: Re: IN> Re:The various goals of major demons (Lilith) Calabim wrote: > Lilith geas' mortals...but does she claim souls after death? I would think > she would have to...to keep any power base. But then what does she do with > them? Insert dark, spooky speculation about just how Lilim are made here. Or, if you don't like that one, two words: Free Range. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Sep 97 12:43:26 PDT From: "Chris Jackson" Subject: Re: IN> A thought - opinions wanted Nathaniel says: . One slight sticking point - Simon does use the name > Gabriel several times. Maybe he's humoring the poor Habbalah... According to one source I read, the angel of biography is refferred to as the Lesser Zadkiel, who just happens to have the same name as the Archangel. Maybe this is the same type of thing. He's Gabriel, just not *that* Gabriel. or maybe not. Christopher B. Jackson ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 13:49:33 -0500 From: tom timberlake Subject: Re: IN> Re:The various goals of major demons (Lilith) Calabim@aol.com wrote: > So flitting back to Lilith...I think I kind of like your "Dave and Buster's" > theory. Perhaps Chicago is simply a market to do business in, like any other. > But that still raises the "But what does she want" question. > > Lilith geas' mortals...but does she claim souls after death? I would think > she would have to...to keep any power base. But then what does she do with > them? > I know this is a straight steal from Wraith the Oblivion, but what do you think those nifty Geas tokens, either pokerchips or INWO cards, are made of, exactly? tom t., mandarin's butterfly to James the Stone Malak "what lives here, and what's stray, tell me please, what's signal and what's noise?" - --Emma Bull ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 14:18:29 EST From: PERRY LLOYD Subject: Re: IN> Re:The various goals of major demons (Lilith) >From: Calabim@aol.com >Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 13:47:34 -0400 (EDT) > <<< Maybe she doesn't feel the need to be tied down thinking about Chicago, preferring to have freedom from those thoughts. Maybe she just wants to hang out in Dave & Busters and "there ain't no one who can tell her otherwise!" >>> > >I don't neccessarily think that Chicago has to be very important to any given >prince or archangel. For example, in my game Andre maintains a minimal >Chicago presence, but right now he's really into the california scene. :) >Ditto for Baal. His real focus is elsewhere, but that still lets me know >where Chicago fits into his view of things. > >So flitting back to Lilith...I think I kind of like your "Dave and Buster's" >theory. Perhaps Chicago is simply a market to do business in, like any other. >But that still raises the "But what does she want" question. What _does_ Lilith want... She strives for freedom, right? And she first sought freedom from God. She wants to be completely free, answering to no one. That sounds like complete power, to me. This might be reflected in the Lilim's resonance, which is to trap other beings into reciprocity; to trap people into serving them (the Lilim). So maybe Lilith wants everyone to serve her, yet not be bound by the responisibility of having to guide them. So, she wants power. But, what does she want the world to look like? I'm not sure she wants the world to change all that much. Maybe to have all the world enslaved to her... All the world owing her favors. Hell, maybe she just wants to feel needed. >Lilith geas' mortals...but does she claim souls after death? I would think >she would have to...to keep any power base. But then what does she do with >them? What do other demons do with souls? They milk them for essence, right? So why wouldn't Lilith? She doesn't give a damn about other people's freedom, just her own own (and her kin). Well, she may think that she gives a damn about other people's freedom, but I doubt she actually does, she's too selfish. Essence = Power as far as I can tell. And Lilith is all about power, the power to choose what to do, the power to enslave others, the power to allow others to enslave her, sorry, the power to allow herself to Geas herself to others. How does she milk them? How does she get anything? She TRADES for it, which means that most likely she's given these souls something in return for their daily essence. Doesn't sound so bad to me, trading your daily essence for comforts. Better than Saminga, that's all I have to say. I envision souls sitting around a living room, trading stories about when they were alive, laughing about all the other poor souls out there who have to suffer away their essence while all they did was trade it for a TV, snacks and a bookcase full of banned books. Here's a good line (IN pg 184) "Depending on the Principality, humans can use Essence to buy anything form brief respite from their torture to complete freedom." Complete Freedom sounds likes Lilith to me. - -Perry Perry M. Lloyd "Aside from the pollution and bad hair styles, Jersey's _so_ cool." Sam Bean ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 14:26:43 -0500 (CDT) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> Re:The various goals of major demons (Lilith) >In a message dated 97-09-28 13:05:01 EDT, you write: > >I don't neccessarily think that Chicago has to be very important to any given >prince or archangel. Chicago is, IMHO, no more or less important to Superiors than any other population center of its size; that is, each has at least the standard low-level hustling and jiving and conniving and politicking and such you have all over. I would think, however, that Marc and Haagenti would be your major players here, with an ongoing power struggle going on between the railyards and the stockyards. >So flitting back to Lilith...I think I kind of like your "Dave and Buster's" >theory. Perhaps Chicago is simply a market to do business in, like any other. >But that still raises the "But what does she want" question. Lilith wants, above all, to be free, and to be in no danger of losing her freedom, and beyond that to encourage the total freedom of humanity to do as they will. Her personal freedom, however, is maintained by a complex web of trade and deals, where favors, servitors, soldiers, souls and essence are exchanged. In the end, though, Lilith's concept of freedom is the selfish kind, freedom from responsibility, freedom from relationships, freedom from friendships, freedom to fall on your butt if you fail. In 1968, Lilith and Malphas would have been having a ball in Chicago together.... today, I don't see much there specifically to attract her, especially when Eastern Europe is so much more important to her these days. Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | Marc sponsored the first http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | Chinese buffet restraunt; c/o White Lightning Productions | it was Haagenti who came http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | up with MSG. Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- Celestial folklore http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 15:42:13 -0500 (CDT) From: Dorothy Bixler Subject: IN> Angels on the list > >How many Superiors do we have on list, anyway? I've seen two Davids, > >Andre, and of course Beth. Gabriel, Michael, Marc, Laurence, and > >Jean are possible, though I don't remember any off the top of my > >head. DPs don't seem to be as possible... > > > Although Lilith (or Lilian) would be. My middle name's the feminine form of Michael, but I'm pretty sure I'm not an angel. *Dorothy Michelle Bixler * mudmh10@ecom.ecn.bgu.edu* (Possibly a fallen Cherub of Animals, now a Djinn of Tech- "Science will save the environment, even if we have to kill all the humans first") "Gidget, have you been laying with the Horned One again?" -MST3K's Mike from "The Thing the Couldn't Die" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 16:26:06 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> Angel of Housewives > I'm so happy you told us violence against women is a bad thing. Here I > thought maybe it was a good thing. And I am sure women everywhere are > swooning at your extraordinary sensitivity. > -David (I'm being sarcastic. In case you can't tell.) Heh...I'd just like to make a brief follow-up proposal to what Edelstein's the Demon Prince of... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 16:28:35 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> Re:The various goals of major demons > But suddenly I started wondering about Lilith. She wheels, she deals, she > scoops up souls in her web of geasa. But favors tend to be a means to an > end...so what would Lilith want? What is she after? In Chicago, per se, I have no idea; I don't know THAT much about Chicago, though I gather it's very windy and that O'Hare is a major airport hub there...(the latter of which might be important to her, with travel as an aspect of Freedom, I suppose.) In the long run, I think she just wants to build up enough power to not have to be beholden to this Lucifer twit anymore, without having to run back to that God twit. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 19:13:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Kim Foster Subject: Re: IN> Re:The various goals of major demons (Lilith) At 12:48 PM 9/28/97 PDT, you wrote: >Calabim wrote: >> Lilith geas' mortals...but does she claim souls after death? I would think >> she would have to...to keep any power base. But then what does she do with >> them? > >Insert dark, spooky speculation about just how Lilim are made here. I was thinking that same thing.... that would be a weird twist wouldn't it... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 15:37:52 -0700 (PDT) From: lugaid@seanet.com Subject: Re: IN> The various goals of major demons On 1997-09-28 in_nomine-l@lists.io.com said to lugaid@seanet.com >>Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 00:30:21 -0400 (EDT) >>But suddenly I started wondering about Lilith. She wheels, she >>deals, she scoops up souls in her web of geasa. But favors tend to >>be a means to an end...so what would Lilith want? What is she >>after? >>I feel like this has been asked, but the question remains. >>-Calabim >Good question. Perhaps she seeks COMPLETE freedom, from both >Heaven and Hell. But, Chicago? Perhaps a base of operations for a >group of crack freedom fighters (a.k.a. terrorists), but that's a >little cheesy, isn't it? wasn't Chicago one of the places that the Weather Underground was strongest? might be cheesy, but life is that way, sometimes... Slan agus Beannachtai, Lugaid MacRobert I had proof of the existence of God, but my cat ate it. Net-Tamer V 1.08X - Test Drive ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #365 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.