From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Sep 30 23:36:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA17838 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 23:36:48 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id XAA15280 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 23:23:23 -0500 Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 23:23:23 -0500 Message-Id: <199710010423.XAA15280@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #370 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, September 30 1997 Volume 01 : Number 370 In this digest: IN> Las Vegas and Archangels (was Chicago and Lilith and Marc) Re: IN> Music (was: More Prophecy stuff) Re: IN> The Prophecy and source materials Re: IN> Las Vegas and Archangels (was Chicago and Lilith and Marc) Re: IN> Baltimore Re: IN> Angels in Las Vegas (was: Chicago and Lilith and Marc) Re: IN> Angels in Las Vegas (was: Chicago and Lilith and Marc) IN> Music Re: IN> Re: IN A thought - opinions wanted Re: IN> In Nomine Live-Action IN> Count Chocula's trial Re: IN> Re: IN A thought - opinions wanted IN> Tilimok & Werewolves Re: IN> Re: IN A thought - opinions wanted Re: IN> Baltimore Re: Re: IN> Re: IN A thought - opinions wanted Re: IN> Baltimore Re: IN> Re: IN A thought - opinions wanted Re: IN> Tilimok & Werewolves Re: IN> In Nomine Live-Action IN> Baltimore IN> A thought - opinions wanted IN> A thought - opinions wanted Re: IN> Las Vegas and Archangels (was Chicago and Lilith and Marc) Re: IN> Las Vegas and Archangels (was Chicago and Lilith and Marc) IN> Jordi & Humans IN> A thought - opinions wanted Re: IN> Baltimore ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 08:27:00 GMT+10 From: "Leath Sheales" <938269@wrpc.riv.csu.edu.au> Subject: IN> Las Vegas and Archangels (was Chicago and Lilith and Marc) redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) wrote: >Jean is only vaguely interested in anything outside Area 51, and >vitally dedicated to destroying Area 51 itself. I don't know. I picture Area 51 as being a heavily guarded tether of Jean, where he brings captured 'alien' technology that Vapula released to shock humanity. This way he can dismantle it, see what Vapula's doing and keep it away from humans until the Symphony says it's time for them to know. Picture it, can't you see squads of Jean's Malakim patrolling the grounds as Men In Black? Leath. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 15:00:46 -0700 (PDT) From: lugaid@seanet.com Subject: Re: IN> Music (was: More Prophecy stuff) On 1997-09-30 in_nomine-l@lists.io.com said to lugaid@seanet.com >>absolutely... for the darker times of Hellish activity, you might >>also want to look for Diamanda Galas' _Litanies of Satan_, an >>avant garde reading of the Baudelaire poem... some people find it >>difficult to listen to (there are some bits of primal screaming, >>some glossolalic sections, and the vocal effects are sometimes >>deliberately annoying), but it *sounds* incredible... i have a >>friend who used my copy to provide the soundtrack to a cultists' >>ritual in Call of Cthulhu... >Diamanda could well provide an entire game soundtrack. Plague Mass >works very well (once again, a great deal of Glossalalia), as does >Vena Cava. and Schrei X... she is just a wonderful artist all around... >For softer (sometimes) less experimental stuff, try The >Sporting Life. which also features John Paul Jones - yes, the guy from Led Zeppelin... life is sometimes very odd, indeed... >Some choices off my shelf: >Napalm Death - Scum (earlier albums like this are better than later >ones) which reminds me, btw, Christian Death is also a very good band to look for... there are some people these days who enjoy giving them a hard time, but they have done some really wonderful stuff over the years... >My Life With The Thrill Kill Kult - Kooler Than Jesus (apropos, >neh?) TKK are one of those bands that i really like, but have never picked up any cds... one of these days... Slan agus Beannachtai, Lugaid MacRobert 666 F - Oven temperature for roast Beast Net-Tamer V 1.08X - Test Drive ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 20:36:08 +1000 From: Jason Mulligan Subject: Re: IN> The Prophecy and source materials I've been doing a little more fossicking around for possible source material and found an online version of the Catholic Encyclopedia, which has an interesting entry on angels. For those interested, point your browsers to . The write-ups on Gabriel and Michael are quite good. - -- Jason Mulligan "The path of my life is strewn with cowpats from the devil's own satanic herd!" - Edmund Blackadder ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 18:01:54 -0500 (CDT) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> Las Vegas and Archangels (was Chicago and Lilith and Marc) >redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) wrote: > >>Jean is only vaguely interested in anything outside Area 51, and >>vitally dedicated to destroying Area 51 itself. > >I don't know. I picture Area 51 as being a heavily guarded tether of >Jean, where he brings captured 'alien' technology that Vapula >released to shock humanity. This way he can dismantle it, see what >Vapula's doing and keep it away from humans until the Symphony says >it's time for them to know. Picture it, can't you see squads of >Jean's Malakim patrolling the grounds as Men In Black? > I see it more as a place where Vapula's artifacts, disguised as 'extraterrestrial artifacts', are studied by the government and implemented in a complex conspiracy (Illuminate me! };-{D ) to keep the public from knowing just how powerful some of this stuff is. Since Area 51 is getting a lot of Vapula's rejects, though, the suffering is greater than average... it's a very powerful Tether for him. Jean doesn't -need- to study Vapula's works, he already has the Secrets of the Universe on his bookshelf. He doesn't want to disseminate Vapula's tech, he wants to squash it like the hideous flesheating bug it is. Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | Marc sponsored the first http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | Chinese buffet restraunt; c/o White Lightning Productions | it was Haagenti who came http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | up with MSG. Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- Celestial folklore http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 17:46:31 -0500 (CDT) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> Baltimore >According to Redneck Gaijin: > >> >> Jordi doesn't give a damn about educating human children, except to provide >> 'object lessons' where he can. >> >> Jordi would be ecstatic if every human in existence just -vanished.- >> >> So I sincerely doubt he's helping anybody with anything about any aquarium >> or zoo. > >This is pretty heavy handed and a bit drastic in my opinion. >Humans have their space in God's plan just as the animals do - >Jordi's problem is that he thinks humans are overstepping and >taking over in a very bad way. What you suggest (in the >process of giving me the wave-off) is that Jordi advocates the >discontinuation of what certainly has to be a PIECE of God's >symphony. Probably a necessary piece in some way. IIRC, it's not the first time in the IN world that such pieces have been 'excised.' It all comes down to what happened to Uriel? >My example - an aquarium - is one of the few, best ways to >educate people about marine concerns in general. The aquarium >does a lot of "Save the Chesapeake Bay" work - a whole lot - >and if that's not the work of Jordi - i.e. "Preserve this piece >of nature you stupid bastards", then I don't know what is. It could be Novalis, or Laurence... or, believe it or not, it could be just humans doing it -on their own.- It happens sometimes. }:-{D Jordi's Mercurians would bring people -into- the wild, snorkeling, scubadiving, whalespotting, and show them the creatures 'as they were meant to live.' Imprisonment is not an option. >Furthermore, one of the most expedient ways to repair any >damage cause by human influences is THROUGH human influences. >Dogs may be great but they don't have opposable thumbs so they >aren't gonna help plant trees and stuff. Even if that is >Novalis' arena :). Therefore Jordi most definitely "gives a >damn about educating human children" if for no other reason >than as a tool to help fix the general mess humans have created. Humanity is a tool Jordi uses only sparingly and under very singular circumstances. >I understand the "imprisoning of animals" line of thought, but >I also understand sacrificing a pawn in a chess game. Jordi doesn't strike me as an individual who backs down even a little bit from a moral stance. A few >animals in an aquarium now, thousands saved later. _IF_ the >aquarium accomplishes its purpose, and that's where Jordi uses >his pull - to make sure his sacrifice is not in vain. The ends do not justify the means. The means, in this case, is imprisonment of wild animals- something Jordi detests. Jordi would never advocate this means, no matter what. Look for Marc (it's in the best interests of business to preserve nature), Novalis (she's a people person, much more than Jordi), and the ubiquitous Yves to be working on the aquarium, if anyone. Christopher might help, but I don't quite see him initiating this, somehow. OTOH, Malphas might -also- have a hand in the aquarium, or at least the groups supporting it... so long as he can find some conservatives to play off against them. >Perhaps I have completely the wrong view of Jordi - I didn't >picture him as THAT egocentric. Not egocentric by any means- merely extremely devoted to his Word, and unwilling to give an inch on it. Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | Marc sponsored the first http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | Chinese buffet restraunt; c/o White Lightning Productions | it was Haagenti who came http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | up with MSG. Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- Celestial folklore http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 97 17:34:45 PDT From: "Chris Jackson" Subject: Re: IN> Angels in Las Vegas (was: Chicago and Lilith and Marc) Funny you should mention an Archangel of Luck - I'm just starting on Abdiel, the Archangel of Fortune. The trouble there is that she's recently Tripped, or else(rumor has it) *died* and been replaced by Loki in disguise (Hmmm. Loki in drag.) and I'm not sure what this'll do to her handful of servitors. (Do they lose their attunements? Do they trip en masse? Are they all comatose so I don't have to worry about it? Any opinions would be great, and all the Archangel in Vegas ideas were a big help. Man, I love this list. If y'all would like, I'll post Abdiel when she's finished. Christopher B. Jackson ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 97 17:41:03 PDT From: "Chris Jackson" Subject: Re: IN> Angels in Las Vegas (was: Chicago and Lilith and Marc) I wrote: > > >The trouble I'm having is finding any Archangel (Besides Marc and *maybe* > Jean) with more than a passing interest in Las Vegas. Of course, I'm > intending it to be pretty much a Demon town, along with the big Vapula tether > in Area 51, but still, I'd like > some angelic influence. And Lo, Walt (among others) replied: > How about Eli and Novalis? They both like parties. I'm having visions of Novalis in the audience for a Wayne Newton show. Not pretty. Dominic and Yves are > everywhere; There's a tether to Yves in a small wedding chapel. and anywhere you have conflict, Michael and Laurance will show > up. Yes. Boulder Dam has to be a Tether of David! It is now. Jordi > is a bit of a problem, though he might be concerned about the break up of > Siegfried and Roy. > Anyone else see "The Tick vs. Reno Nevada?" I've suddenly got an idea for a Sereaph of Jordi . . . Christopher B> Jackson ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 19:45:21 -0400 From: Twila Oxley Price Subject: IN> Music Geesh, people, I feel so, so, out of it! :-) My favorite In Nomine music so far includes the Oysterband, Steeleye Span, the Tansads (all British folk-rock groups who do what I'd consider appropriately devilish/angelish music -- things like Holy Bandits, the old ballads that Steeleye does (including a wonderful version of True Thomas with the lines about the ways to heaven, hell and faerie (which has to be the Marches, in In Nomine)), and the general coolness of the Tansads and the Levellers. I'd also include Hedningarna (tranlated as The Heathens) who do some Finnish/Swedish traditional tunes/songs to the most scary beat and with the weirdest chanting effects -- very very effective. Oh, and of course, there are dozens of oldies (aka sixties songs) that work *very* well as various angel/demon theme songs. As you can see, I'm an unregenerate folkie, and goth doesn't do a thing for me. Neither does dissonant music. I tend to prefer actually *listening* to the lyrics and deciding that a song is appropriate based on that. Of course, having a good melodic line and singers who can sing are primary concerns before that. :-) Hhhhmmm. Do we have an angel of folk music yet? Maybe I'll have to.... Twila (who is way way too old to get into goth now -- eeep!) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 19:45:03 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN A thought - opinions wanted > (So, how *do* you get around the part where, if your skill > is 10, and the difficulty is 10, the chance of critical failure > is *exactly* the same as *any* chance of success? O;>) By realizing that that's the same for any roll on 10? A ten is pretty high as a target... Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com "What was that popping sound?" "A paradigm shifting without a clutch." - Dilbert ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 20:21:34 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Live-Action > Almost _no one_ has seen one beyond the old-timers. They > faded from view about eight(?) years ago and are awfully hard to > come by now. With the advances in electronics, they could probably > be the size of a keychain now, but would they sell? (They were > _awesome_ when dice were too inconvenient to use.) A easier solution is to take a baby food bottle and put some small dice in it. Rattle it, then turn it so that the cap is down, so the dice rest in the bottom. It works very well, from what I've seen (an improvised Bab-5 LARP). Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com "What was that popping sound?" "A paradigm shifting without a clutch." - Dilbert ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 19:43:15 -0500 From: Mark Allen Subject: IN> Count Chocula's trial >Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 17:58:45 -0400 >From: Elizabeth McCoy >Subject: Re: IN> Re: A thought - opinions wanted >I already have one or two... Yes. (And I look forward to the official >second edition, wherein I can sink my arms to the elbows in bloody bits >of text and reorganize the whole thing. Think of the Michael picture, But there's no annoying Rein-splat-Hagen taint to remove. But just so I can open myself to Pot-Kettle-Black, let me confess, I also play far too much Werewolf for my own good, since it's about the only game I can stomach from White Wolf. I mean, let's face the truth: any game with an /Angst/ attribute for PCs is just... too much. >only female and with bits of text clinging to my forearms. You can >keep the image shirtless if you want.) *mrow* Now there's some artwork worth having, he says, after having the priveledge (yes, I suppose it is) of playing one of the GURPS IOU games at GenCon this year. Let me explain (ObPrincessBride: No, there is to much.) Let me sum up for those of you who could make it: Chain link becomes her nicely. >all her attempts to Emote innocence> Schyeah. Right. >Hey, if the "put out the second edition" stuff worked for WW... *snicker* >Ahem. That was just me, not being a representitive of anybody >but me. I don't set SJG policy, and my effect on IN policy is >moderated by SJ, the Managing Editor, and various others. And they never let you have any fun, too, I'm sure. ;) >(But I've only seen the GURPS versions of White Wolf stuff. >(And one GM who shifted his GURPS Horror campaign to the >Storyteller system, just before the game died; you don't want >to know what conversions *from* GURPS *to* Storyteller look >like. ) So I don't mock WW for edition >stuff. Just some of the places where I think the atmosphere >gets either a bit thick or a bit rarified... Nah, the second editions were more or less a necessary evil. Some of the stuff in the first editions was just... eww. >After all, I did help with the "IOU and Toon meet the World of Darkness" >DexCon tourney that Bob Schroeck ran... >Count Chocula goes on trial for blowing the masquerade. His >Malkavian defense says, "My Lord, this dude is cool. I rest >my case!") *laugh* What I want to know is: what Clan is the Count of Breakfast Cereal? (Hmmm. Demon of Breakfast Cereal -- Balseraph of Vapula -- it's part of a nutritous breakfast -- Sure, it is.) >(Malkies. I *like* Malkies...) What a shock. What a shock. >- --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor >GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ - -- Mark Allen -- mallen@computer.org -- There are two major products from UC-Berkeley: LSD and UNIX. I don't think that's a coincidence. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 20:36:01 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN A thought - opinions wanted > Now here's where things get kind of odd the game calls Gabriel an > Ofinite and further names her the AA of FIRE while the movie > follows the Jewish out look on gabriel that is (and if you > remember the book Thomas had with him in his office at the police > station, sorry I am running from memory and cant be sure the > Title, stated the Gabriel was the Angel of death. Hmmm - I wonder why Dan decided on her as Fire? Any of the net.prescences know what he used as his source? > Thomas also read at that time though posibly from a different book > the discription of Uzuel as the Luitenent to the Sereph or AA > Gabriel this showes there alience and places Gabriel as not only > the angel of death but as a sereph not an Ofanite this has been a > sticking point in our campaign from the start as Micheal has > always traditionaly been asosiated with fire and Gabriel with > water. What tradition are you coming from, for this? I'd appreciate references (esp online ones)... > so I would have to say rather then butchering the movie to make it > fit an In Nomine game ( I would much rather butcher In Nomine to fit > the movie ) I would make Walkens Gabriel the mysterious archangel of > death. It does fit fairly well into In Nomine, and given the volume of material in Prophecy vs the volume of material in In Nomine, I chose to mold Prophecy. > as for the brilliant camio by Lucifer I loved it and this is the model > for Lucifer in my campain as for those who found his barking to uncouth > for the dark lord well he's bean around since long before the creation > of civalization and it's tenents on culture and manners dont really > apply now do they any way I kind of like Lucifer as a somewhat alien > creature. I tend to see the Devil as simply so intimidating (to his servants, at least) as to not need to bark. Plus, I like the "Sympathy" feel for the Devil better - it keeps players more on their guard than a devil who's evil is out in the open. Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com "What was that popping sound?" "A paradigm shifting without a clutch." - Dilbert ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 97 21:11:20 -0400 From: dwood@skipjack.bluecrab.org Subject: IN> Tilimok & Werewolves Previously, from the desktop of Christopher Stevenson... >Has anyone considered adding werewolves to the soldiers of In Nomine? I >would be interested in hearing people's opinions. By werewolf I mean those >cursed with lycanthropy as opposed to White Wolf's concept of 'defenders of >Gaia', but any opinions are welcome. Oh yeah, but I had a slightly different take in mind for them... TILIMOK, DEMON OF BEASTS "Scientists classify humans as an animal, some distance removed from the rest of the animal kingdom. Hah! I knew it all along, and so many humans are closer to animals than they know..." Tilimok, a Shedite, has adapted a particular bent to his corrupting nature: rather than simply corrupting people, he brings out his host's animal urges and makes him act on them. Lust, gluttony, wrath, sloth... things that animals can regularly be forgiven for because they supposedly don't know better. Humans, however, supposedly have a conscience which keeps them reasonably well-behaved. Tilimok has made a career of getting people to ignore it. I'm not sure which prince he'd be a servitor of, if not actually being a demon prince himself. I see him being an opposite number to Jordi, whose realm is specifically that of animals, and whose Word takes a beating when Tilimok (or his servants) make people act like beasts. One of the powers or attunements he offers is the right (and the rite) to inflict lycanthropy on his Soldiers. And lycanthropy is contagious in its own right. There wouldn't be many active lycanthropes running amok because of the disturbance they make in the Symphony when they change. The Soldiers are taught how to muffle the sound made by their changing. They're probably considered every bit an abomination as the undead of Saminga are. Not to mention that animals recognize them for what they are on the spot. If anyone wants further write-up, please ask. I'm calling dibs on this material. - -David http://www.bluecrab.org/members/dwood/ Demon of Obfuscation in service to Malphas ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 11:27:41 +1000 From: christopher.stevenson@aihw.gov.au (Christopher Stevenson) Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN A thought - opinions wanted >When I first scanned IN I got the feeling that it was quite similar to the >WW mechanics system (leaving aside the d666 thing), and the clan system >similar to that of the vampires, werewolves, ect from the WoD. I don't like >the WW mechanics system at all. Me I use and have used much of Vampire: the I agree. Bizarre botch and reroll probabilities and limiting cases. >Dark Ages in my own RoleMaster game (the PC's are non-vampires who got in Hmm. A scary critical hit and fumble system which makes most skill tests potentially lethal. >the way of vampiric machinations). I'm going to give IN a try though, if we >(the group) don't like it we'll adapt it to another set of mechanics (if >it's adaptable to GURPS, it shou;dn't be too much of a struggle to adapt it >to RoleMaster perhaps). If it's too GURPSish, as in a 3d6 resolution, it's GURPS rather than In Nomine; although a 3d6 resolution works well. I like the In Nomine system. It's simple and robust. It's only real shortcoming is the arbitrary degree of success or failure of actions. >Jason Mulligan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 97 21:30:02 -0400 From: dwood@skipjack.bluecrab.org Subject: Re: IN> Baltimore Previously, from the desktop of Hobbes... >I've been sketching up some Baltimore stuff.... As have I. And someone else from the list. Why is it that Baltimore seems like a popular place for IN settings? >When I'm done anybody want the source material? Any other >Baltimorons out there want to throw some ideas my way?? Glad to be of service... >I've got the stairs from _The Exorcist_ (where the demon portal >was) as a low-key tether (oxymoron) of Nybbas. (Well, that would explain the fascination with Baltimore...) Oh, come now. Nybbas can do better than a flight of stairs from a movie...! No push, no sparkle, just a cute little girl spewing pea soup. I'm thinking nothing less than Television Hill for him. Probably the basement of either WJZ (CBS affiliate, oldest local station) or WBAL (NBC affiliate, widest local media empire). > The National >Aquarium could be for Jordi since they do sooooo much >educational stuff there. He may be cooperating with >Christopher to educate kids about marine life! It's educational, yeah, but as many people have said, it's captivity. I've been through there and seen dead fish caught in filters. Add to that the marine mammal pavillion, which actually has the noble beasts of the sea *gasp!* PERFORMING... Jordi'd have kittens AND a cow. He could, too. He's a Kyriotate, after all. >:) >DanOz - lives in Charlottesville, has to put up with Seanmike, > but is really FROM Baltimore.... Then how could you overlook Fort McHenry as a tether to Michael and Eli? Yes, both at the same time. Remember its history, and you may figure out why... There's another very good reason for celestials to visit Baltimore: it's only an hour or so drive from Washington D.C., which in my campaign is known as The Fallen City. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 11:52:05 +1000 From: christopher.stevenson@aihw.gov.au (Christopher Stevenson) Subject: Re: Re: IN> Re: IN A thought - opinions wanted >"There are three things that annoy about WW (and I think this applies to many >detractors): Their mechanics are weak (including the infamous >'second-edition-syndrome')" > >Now, now. Personally, after all the discussion, erratta and FAQing around >that's happened on this list, there have been enough changes to what's >actually between the covers of an IN softcover that we've essentially made a >Second Edition. That's what what White Wolf does. I think IN has done a better job of correcting mistakes and refining systems. >"...their attitude is holier-than-thou..." > >Technical foul. Mark Rein-8-Hagen is holier-than-thou. The other purpose of >White Wolf second editions is to purge his taint. :) Hmm. Mark Rein-dot-Hagan and the other guys in San Francisco were pretty personable when I met them in Fall 96. >-J ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 21:58:02 -2800 (EDT) From: Hobbes Subject: Re: IN> Baltimore According to Redneck Gaijin: > IIRC, it's not the first time in the IN world that such pieces have been > 'excised.' It all comes down to what happened to Uriel? Good point. If Uriel was slapped on the wrist, it's okay - but if God blasted him into component forces..... Either way I'm not takin' that one on. > Jordi's Mercurians would bring people -into- the wild, snorkeling, > scubadiving, whalespotting, and show them the creatures 'as they were meant > to live.' Imprisonment is not an option. I'm not talking whales and minnows and things like that. The most recent specialty exhibit is on jellyfish - the kind that live in the middle of the ocean thousands of feet straight down and are STILL getting offed by various nasties that humans chuck into the water. SCUBA divers would get squished chasing these guys around for sightseeing. > Humanity is a tool Jordi uses only sparingly and under very singular > circumstances. Well, that's pretty universal. What would those circumstances be? > > Jordi doesn't strike me as an individual who backs down even a little bit > from a moral stance. > > The ends do not justify the means. > > The means, in this case, is imprisonment of wild animals- something Jordi > detests. > > Jordi would never advocate this means, no matter what. > > > Not egocentric by any means- merely extremely devoted to his Word, and > unwilling to give an inch on it. > Using this logic, I see Jordi wacking out worse than Gabriel. By your logic, he rarely uses humans, won't support zoo's and some of the other pieces of conservationist efforts, yet he is extremely devoted to his word and goes to extremes for it. This strikes me as situation where you have to reconcile something. Either he gives in the short term to preserve the long term, or he sacrifices the long term. Then again, he could just be dumb and thinks that everything will work itself out if he closes his eyes very tightly, refuses to give in, and sticks by his guns. Either way, your version of Jordi needs to either wake up and smell the coffe, or get ready for the straight jacket with Gabby as a roomate. Dan Ozdowski - -- Don't blame me, I voted for Sgarlata. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 12:14:57 +1000 From: christopher.stevenson@aihw.gov.au (Christopher Stevenson) Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN A thought - opinions wanted > >>When I first scanned IN I got the feeling that it was quite similar to the >>WW mechanics system (leaving aside the d666 thing), and the clan system >>similar to that of the vampires, werewolves, ect from the WoD. I don't like >>the WW mechanics system at all. Me I use and have used much of Vampire: the > >I agree. Bizarre botch and reroll probabilities and limiting cases. > >>Dark Ages in my own RoleMaster game (the PC's are non-vampires who got in > >Hmm. A scary critical hit and fumble system which makes most skill tests >potentially lethal. > >>the way of vampiric machinations). I'm going to give IN a try though, if we >>(the group) don't like it we'll adapt it to another set of mechanics (if >>it's adaptable to GURPS, it shou;dn't be too much of a struggle to adapt it >>to RoleMaster perhaps). > >If it's too GURPSish, as in a 3d6 resolution, it's GURPS rather than In >Nomine; although a 3d6 resolution works well. I like the In Nomine system. >It's simple and robust. It's only real shortcoming is the arbitrary degree >of success or failure of actions. > >>Jason Mulligan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 22:25:56 -0500 (CDT) From: Donald G Bixler Subject: Re: IN> Tilimok & Werewolves > TILIMOK, DEMON OF BEASTS Interesting. My wife and I wrote up Beelzebub as having the word "Beasts". WE didn't get much response, but I still have it if you'd like to see it. > If anyone wants further write-up, please ask. I'm calling dibs on this > material. I for one would be interested, if only in comparing your Tilimok with our Beelzebub... > -David http://www.bluecrab.org/members/dwood/ > Demon of Obfuscation in service to Malphas Huh? Who said that? I don't see anyone... *thwap* *thwap* *thwap* Oww! Okay, I give. Oops da Ogre, will make stupid V:tM puns for Essence mudgb4@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 97 23:37 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Live-Action >I *like* the idea of a dragonbone type electronic die-roller. I've seen >children's games with a die the size of the keychain mentioned above. Why stop at a simple die-roller? IR stuff is pretty easy and cheap these days. Should be possible to build a wand-like remote control sort of gadget with a small LCD on it. Be easy to prototype on a PDA of some sort, like a Newton, though a Newton is both too expensive and too cumbersome. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 23:54:25 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Baltimore I just moved away from Baltimore after living there for a few years. I am firmly convinced it's one big Tether to Hell, but I'd be interested in seeing your writeup. ;) - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 23:54:29 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> A thought - opinions wanted >>>However, I have noticed a trend wherein it is becoming fashinable on this list to blast WW and its products. I would like to remind the list that there are some of us who -do- like WW and its products.<<< Well, stick around, we'll cure you of your afflication. ;) - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 23:54:24 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> A thought - opinions wanted >>>If SJG puts out a new version of IN which implements all of the speculations posted here, then, yeah, they're guilty of rewriting everything for a second edition.<<< Not to mention we'd be guilty of making the world almost as incoherent as the World of Darkness. - -David (oops, sorry, couldn't resist ;)) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 97 23:54 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Las Vegas and Archangels (was Chicago and Lilith and Marc) >>Jean is only vaguely interested in anything outside Area 51, and >>vitally dedicated to destroying Area 51 itself. > >I don't know. I picture Area 51 as being a heavily guarded tether of >Jean, where he brings captured 'alien' technology that Vapula >released to shock humanity. This way he can dismantle it, see what >Vapula's doing and keep it away from humans until the Symphony says >it's time for them to know. Picture it, can't you see squads of >Jean's Malakim patrolling the grounds as Men In Black? Or if you want things to get *really* twisted, Area 51 belongs to the humans, and there *really is* alien tech there. So Jean and Vap would be fighting over it.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Oct 97 00:00 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Las Vegas and Archangels (was Chicago and Lilith and Marc) >Jean doesn't -need- to study Vapula's works, he already has the Secrets of >the Universe on his bookshelf. He doesn't want to disseminate Vapula's tech, >he wants to squash it like the hideous flesheating bug it is. While Jean may have the Secrets of the Universe(TM) on his bookshelf, he is neither omniscient nor omnipotent. I figure he can make anything he wants, but doesn't necessarily think of everything that's possible. Some of Vap's gadgets may surprise him. And it's always useful to know how close Vapula is to some of them more dangerous bits of understanding or knowledge. After all, spies don't stop spying on the other side because they know the answers -- they want to know if the other side does.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 23:54:22 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Jordi & Humans >>>I don't agree with this view of Jordi. His dissonance condition is, "They gain dissonance if the value human life above animal life." (P. 124) So it's not that they hate humans, it's just that a human is no more (or less) important than a cat or a bear.<<< I think Jordi thinks the world would be better off without humans. He may not hate humans, but he has little use for them. Except those rare few who devote themselves to helping animals. One example: there is a woman in California who runs a facility for the housing and care of mistreated and abandoned zoo and circus animals and the like. These are animals that could no longer survive on their own in the wild. I'd say Jordi almost certainly has some of his Servitors watching over her. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 23:54:27 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> A thought - opinions wanted >>>There are three things that annoy about WW (and I think this applies to many detractors): Their mechanics are weak (including the infamous 'second-edition-syndrome'), their attitude is holier-than-thou, and some of the players are angsty-loser-moron-nobodies (mind you, _I_ play their games... I'm not saying this about ALL their players!) This attitude was 'fashionable' elsewhere LONG before it came to this list. The similarities in scope between the two games invite comparisons so, inevitably, negative comparisons will come forth.<<< And the fourth major problem with WW, and the reason I prefer In Nomine MUCH more: in White Wolf, humans are totally irrelevant, and the world has no hope. (Oh sure, supposedly the PCs are good guys, or as good as anyone can be in the World of Darkness, but does anyone really believe there's a prayer of stopping the Settite/Sabbat/Inconnu/Technocracy/Wyrm/Papparazi/New World Order/Bill&Hillary/Grey Aliens conspiracy that's been running the world since the beginning of time (and despite controlling the entire world, still feels it necessary to hide from the insignificant, powerless humans who still inhabit it)? - -David (unrepentant WW-basher) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 22:45:04 -0500 (CDT) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> Baltimore >According to Redneck Gaijin: > >> IIRC, it's not the first time in the IN world that such pieces have been >> 'excised.' It all comes down to what happened to Uriel? > >Good point. If Uriel was slapped on the wrist, it's okay - but >if God blasted him into component forces..... >Either way I'm not takin' that one on. We don't -know- what happened to Uriel... except that he was pulled from the Fight by the Almighty himself. >> Jordi's Mercurians would bring people -into- the wild, snorkeling, >> scubadiving, whalespotting, and show them the creatures 'as they were meant >> to live.' Imprisonment is not an option. > >I'm not talking whales and minnows and things like that. The >most recent specialty exhibit is on jellyfish - the kind that >live in the middle of the ocean thousands of feet straight down >and are STILL getting offed by various nasties that humans >chuck into the water. SCUBA divers would get squished chasing >these guys around for sightseeing. Doesn't matter. Imprisonment is imprisonment. The only possible exception Jordi would make is taking a wounded or ill animal in to heal it. Whether or not Jordi approves of captive breeding of endangered species, I'm unsure. However, imprisonment for the sole purpose of letting humans gawk at the Almighty's creatures is a blatant crime to Jordi. >> Humanity is a tool Jordi uses only sparingly and under very singular >> circumstances. > >Well, that's pretty universal. What would those circumstances >be? First and foremost, the human must hold animals -at least- as equals to humans, if not actually -preferring- them to humans. Second, the human's purpose is either to teach other humans about proper respect for animals, or to stop other humans from wrecking the ecosystem- usually -forcibly.- Jordi loves ecoterrorists, anti-fur protest groups, and any pro-animal group, the more of society's rules they break the better. >> Not egocentric by any means- merely extremely devoted to his Word, and >> unwilling to give an inch on it. >> > >Using this logic, I see Jordi wacking out worse than Gabriel. >By your logic, he rarely uses humans, won't support zoo's and >some of the other pieces of conservationist efforts, yet he is >extremely devoted to his word and goes to extremes for it. Yep. >This strikes me as situation where you have to reconcile >something. Either he gives in the short term to preserve the >long term, or he sacrifices the long term. Then again, he >could just be dumb and thinks that everything will work itself >out if he closes his eyes very tightly, refuses to give in, and >sticks by his guns. Jordi is utterly moral, for his POV. He *cannot* sacrifice a principle to gain ground in other places. >Either way, your version of Jordi needs to either wake up and >smell the coffe, or get ready for the straight jacket with >Gabby as a roomate. > All the other angels except Yves and Novalis- including Gabriel- think Jordi is totally wacked. Jordi may or may not be insane, but his priorities are radically different from all other Archangels. He's virtually alone in his belief that humans at - -best- are a relatively unimportant aspect of the Symphony, and at worst are a disease in need of a cure. Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | Marc sponsored the first http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | Chinese buffet restraunt; c/o White Lightning Productions | it was Haagenti who came http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | up with MSG. Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- Celestial folklore http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #370 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.