From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Jan 7 14:10:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA27506 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 14:10:44 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id NAA12246 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 13:47:50 -0600 Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 13:47:50 -0600 Message-Id: <199801071947.NAA12246@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #553 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, January 7 1998 Volume 01 : Number 553 In this digest: Re: IN> Seed: You Go Yahweh, I'll Go My Way IN> Seraphim and Roles IN> Malakim and Humor IN> Losing your wings? IN> A resonance question Re: IN> Seraphim and Roles Re: IN> Seraphim and Roles Re: IN> Seraphim and Roles Re: IN> Extinction IN> Cabala for IN SJ's Power Trip (was IN> Extinction) Re: IN> Extinction IN> Vox Pop Re: IN> Extinction Re: IN> Extinction Re: IN> Seed: You Go Yahweh, I'll Go My Way Re: IN> Extinction Re: IN> Who are you, anyway? Re: IN> Forces as Game-World Objects Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #537 Re: IN> Who are you, anyway? Re: IN> Christian Mods for In Nomine Re: IN> A resonance question Wordbond Rites/Dissonance/etc (Was Re: IN> Headaches) Re: Anime off-topic (Re: IN> IN Anime movie trailer : 2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 08:49:44 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Seed: You Go Yahweh, I'll Go My Way I'm not including the seed because it's long. My comment is: huh. Just some sort of deep grunt of acknowledgement, which I believe is directly related to my lack of caffeine in my bloodstream right now. It's interesting. I shall ponder. In thinking about the way the human conception of God has changed over the millenia, I highly suggest a book I'm finishing, "The History of God" by Karen Armstrong. (I'll write up a review and some commentary for the List when I'm done, much more in depth.) In particular, since we're interested in mostly Reform (1300's) and later God, I suggest the chapters "The Age of Reformation" and "Enlightenment" to go deeper into this subject, although the individual chapters on the genesis of Judiasm, the Trinity and the Unity of Islam are very interesting. In Nomine, I've noticed, doesn't seem to be really interested in Platonic, Neo-Platonic, or Gnostic Christian versions of God past the point of "There are angels and they are keen", which are, in fact, a completely different form of God entirely. (I have, in fact, come to the conclusion that the Lilim are a product of Greek Orthodox paradoxs, which they seem to love so much, but for different reasons entirely.) - - Em, Philosophizin' Balseraph ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 08:58:11 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Seraphim and Roles >>>But by this defination, if a seraph is asked his age then he has to say the exact truth, same with "what's your name?"<<< No. He doesn't have to say the exact truth -- he just has to say something that is truthful. Or rather, he can't say anything that is UNtruthful. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 08:58:10 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Malakim and Humor >>>according to the APH, malakim don't enjoy humor, they are deadpan characters.<<< I assume you meant the APG, and I do wish you wouldn't misstate it. Especially parts of it that I wrote. Your statement is true of MOST Malakim. But the APG most certainly does NOT say that NO Malakite enjoys humor and that they are ALL "deadpan" characters! - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 08:58:08 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Losing your wings? >>>I'd say 7 forces is the minnimum to maintain Angel status, simply because a Demon could be fledged as, say, a Balseraph at seven forces and, (mostly theoretically) could Redeem as a seven-force Seraph.<<< True. But I'd say there is no minimum. Angels and demons can be _severely_ mauled in celestial combat -- the rulebook describes what happens if you lose all your Forces of a particular type, but there's no indication that you can be knocked back down to a reliever (or imp or gremlin). Yes, you could theoretically wind up as a 3-Force Malakite. A pitiful, crippled, shadow-of-his-former-self Malakite, but still a Malakite. There is a qualitative difference between spirits and full-fledged celestials. It's not just how many Forces they have...because a reliever can have more Forces than a full demon. If anything, Force limits are _maximums_, not miniums. An angel or demon can be whittled down to fewer Forces than your average spirit, but no spirit can have MORE than a certain number -- at that point, their nature simply does not have a capacity for more Forces until their Superior chooses to boost them to the next level. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 08:58:13 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> A resonance question >>>With angels, quite a few have Resonances that are very similar - Elohim, Malakim and Mercurian. Now, is there a limit as to how often these resonances can be used on a subject, or a delay after failing with them (other than when you fail with a cd of 6)? One of my players is a Malakite, and not much of a one for rolling dice. He's said that if there are no limits on how often he can roll, then he'll just roll once/turn until he gets it. Since he normally only uses the resonance outside combat (not that we've had any combat yet), he figures that we might as well just assume the roll always works and just cough up the results, rather than make tedious rolls. He's got a point...<<< Tell him nice try. Any failed resonance roll means you can't use it on that subject (at least for the same purpose) for a number of hours equal to the check digit. And on *any* failed resonance roll with a check digit of 6, the resonance becomes useless for a period of hours! (In Nomine, p. 56-57). This is why angels *don't* needlessly apply their resonance on everyone they meet.... - -David (just out of curiousity, do you have any .sig files that _aren't_ obscene?) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 09:32:06 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Seraphim and Roles David Edelstein wrote: > Sure. The Seraph can write "Fred" on a name tag and let others assume. > On the other hand, if a human walks up to him and asks "Is your name > Fred?" the Seraph can't say "Yes." Bleah. I fail to see the differences in deceptiveness between: 1) Giving an assumed name. 2) Wearing a name tag with an assumed name. 3) Wearing the form of an assumed species. The same context assumptions that would prevent such a seraph from saying "My name is Fred" would prevent it from filling out and wearing a name-tag reading "Fred," because the name-tag is designed to be exactly equivalent to the utterance "My name is Fred," just quieter. (A lot of name-tags even read "Hi! My name is ______.") Likewise, wearing a humanoid vessel is completely and solely done for the purpose of making onlookers suppose that one is a human being, mortal, born of woman, etc., for about 15 billion years worth of context. Or, if there is a difference, I can only imagine that it depends on such hair-fine distinctions as would be un-game-able. Now, I could give a seraph a hard time about: - Using a name with no attached Role. - Denying that it is an angel, if asked flat-out. - Answering the age question. - Answering similar form-filling questions like place of birth. I understand that the seraph schtick is to exhibit both the utilities and frustrations of unvarnished truth. But the name issue in particular just strikes me as unnecessary complication and something of a distortion of the meaning of "name." > (He could give the human a look of utter scorn, and say in a voice > dripping with sarcasm, "Did I misspell it or something?" Sarcasm can > be a Seraph's best friend. ) But how is such sarcasm different in principle from the misdirections you've discarded as "balseraph tricks"? Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 09:42:12 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Seraphim and Roles > Certainly, cutting some slack as a GM if following the rules too much is > inhibiting the game is a Good Thing. But Seraphim *are* very careful > and very obnoxious and very difficult for humans to emulate -- their > dissonance conditions aren't supposed to be easy to get around. It's what > makes them Seraphim. > > -David > So I'm going to make my point, which I think you sort of missed. I was under the (maybe mistaken) impression that In Nomine was a *game*, and one in which several people got together to have some enjoyment every once in a while. To be frankly honest, the Seraphim PC is very difficult to play with just the normal rule book, and I have received more then a few comments and complaints from my player who chose to play one of Destiny, several of which had merit and a few of which that didn't. Most of the commentary boils down to the simple fact: if the character by nature and by rules is very difficult to play by caveat, it makes the game very difficult to play, it makes the player and GM really work to make the character involved, and it makes everyone just want to go outside and have a big bonfire courtesy of Steve Jackson Games. The game no longer becomes *fun*, which I thought was the entire point in the first place. Of course, I have been known to be wrong. On top of which, not only does the character have to watch every single word they say, they have to watch the dissonace very carefully - after a few simple slips of the tongue, the character could find themselves a demon by an unlucky roll of the dice by the end of the session, completely unintentionally, unlike any of the the other Choirs. I see this as a very definite problem with the system, a very serious break, and have done my best as a GM to try to make things easier for the player. Unlike every other Choir who has to actually go out of their way to consciously do something which is against their nature and cause dissonance, the Seraph player, which I BELIEVE is played by a normal, run of the mill human being, has to be ridiculously careful and watch every word they say, or they will be screwed by an overly anal game master and find themselves in an unplayable position. After a while, the player feels they cannot just play freely, and interact with the other characters, and it removes the enjoyment they might have otherwise had in the game, since role playing is all about interacting with other human beings - a phenomena I have seen during several four hour sessions myself, and we've had 12 of them. At this point, why anyone would ever want to play a Seraph is now beyond my comprehension. I certainly wouldn't. I don't find this fun, I don't find this FAIR, and I'm not going to penalize for a player using their Role's name because it's simpler on everyone involved. There has to be some equalizing mechanism with the other Choirs, and there isn't one. I know it's tempting to jump up and down and scream, "But they resonante for truth! I wrote it right there!" but there's got to be a point where the person writing the rules has to remember the human beings who actually spend the money and play the game, and there is a line between going along with canon and when the game is no longer an enjoyable experience. These are my observations from running the game for six months, which I would assume never came out in player testing. Things like this never do until it actually goes into production en masse, a fact of life I, as an engineer, am extremely familiar with. But humans are humans, and they never act as you would expect them to. Thus is life. I'm not saying the rules are bad, or the game is bad. It's just pure criticism coming from someone who has had to deal with this problem with the game. I am saying that the player's enjoyment comes long before the rules do, and being strict on a point of human habit is a venture which just, in the long run, ruins the experience for everyone involved. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 10:06:08 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Seraphim and Roles Suggested fixes: Suppose that a seraph sent to Earth is given dissonance protection by its AA so that it can stay in its Role. Just for fun, I wrote up a slightly-IN-based set of rules for playing angels in the rule-set my game group made up for themselves. I described an "angel of truth" whose special "grace" was the ability to detect lies, and whose special limitation was a total inability to lie CONVINCINGLY. They can utter the words. No lighting flashes. But no one believes them. If one said (for some odd reason) "I'm human," an ordinary mortal would believe them because we do not seriously expect to meet nonhuman persons. Anyone used to meeting nonhuman persons would, however, become immediately suspicious. Under this system, one could give its age as "33" and you would be sure they had lied about their age, but you wouldn't be expecting the delta to be in centuries unless you were clued in. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 11:15:18 -0500 From: "Thomas Davidson" Subject: Re: IN> Extinction - ---------- > From: LAstley > To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > Subject: Re: IN> Extinction > Date: Tuesday, January 06, 1998 4:38 PM > [snip] > someone showed me a copy of the beta version of IN a while ago, and it had a > cool bit in the history about the dinosaurs being an intelligent race with > powerful magic. it was they who were responsible for the corporeal and > ethereal realms being split into two (they were originally one realm). > presumably none of this is in the IN canon anymore, which is a shame. jurassic > park meets mage :) > Actually, this sounds a lot like the "Realm of Mu" from Nephilim. The dinosaurs were actually intelligent beings, capable of great magicks. The moon was the most powerful of the heavenly bodies (due to its proximity to the earth), and thus Moon Ka was the most powerful form of Ka. Wishing to make their magic more powerful, they created a duplicate of the moon, called the "Black Moon". This Black Moon was unstable, and fell apart (or something :) ), in the process, breaking Moon Ka (so it isn't as powerful as it once was), and awakened the KaIm, the Nephilim ancestors. This is all from memory, and since I haven't read the book in quite a while, don't quote me. :) But it's strange: Nephilim and In Nomine must have been using the same source for this. > liam > Thomas Davidson tdavidso@suffolk.lib.ny.us MUSIC: Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, Rolling Stones, Rush, Jimi Hendrix GAMES: Champions (old and new), In Nomine, Nephilim TV: The X-Files, The Simpsons, Superman, The Tick, The Animaniacs OTHER: Religion, Philosophy, mysticism, the runes, the Tarot, writing ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 11:25:39 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: IN> Cabala for IN I said I would come up with some Cabalistic trimmings for IN. Here they are. The Calabistic Tree of Life is supposed to be a diagram of the metaphysical universe and of the soul. We'll concentrate on the soul aspect. The Tree consists of ten "sephiroth" (sing. "sephira") grouped into three triads and a singleton, and connected in various ways. We'll ignore the connections. What follows is just my own understandings and misunderstandings, and also is exclusively bent toward IN. Each soul, human or celestial or animal, is composed of some number of Forces. These Forces are not the same as the sephiroth; rather, sephiroth are positions or functions a Force can perform. Every soul has ten sephiroth (with some exceptions, noted below). If it does not have ten Forces, the existing Forces can alternate between different sephiroth, performing multiple functions. If the soul has more than ten Forces, there can be more than one Force per sephiroth. There is no known upper limit. Superiors probably have dozens. Or billions. Forces may not have any individual existence within a soul, any more than there are ten individual dollars in a ten-dollar bill, unlike, say, an individual marble in a bag of marbles. However, Forces are either celestial, ethereal, or corporeal and cannot be interchanged across those categories. Here are the sephiroth of the Tree of Life: Crown (Keter) Wisdom (Hakhmah) Understanding (Binah) Judgement (Din) Beauty (Tiferet) Grace (Hesed) Glory (Hod) Eternity (Nezah) Foundation (Yesod) Manifestation (Shekhinah) The Hebrew names are in (parentheses). The English names are my own selections from various offered translations and may not be good. Crown, Understanding, and Wisdom form an "intellectual triad." They are run by celestial Forces. Crown is raw spirit, the soul's link to God. In demons and damned souls, it is empty, the link cut. That's one of three reasons the average starting demon has only seven Forces. Wisdom and Understanding are knower and known, decider and decision. If these are not filled, you cannot be a conscious, volitional being. They correspond to Will and Perception, respectively. Judgement, Beauty, and Grace form a "moral triad." They are run by ethereal forces. There is no neat matchup between them and the attributes Intelligence and Precision. Grace is mostly empty in demons, which is the second of three reasons they start with only seven forces. However, it is not totally empty unless they are irredeemable; a Force may duck in for a millisecond every hour or so. (The third of the three reasons is the "quantity over quality" policy of the Demon Princes.) Glory, Eternity, and Foundation form the "natural" or "physical" triad. They are run by corporeal Forces. Glory and Eternity correspond to Strength and Endurance respectively. Foundation is the link to Manifestation. In humans, this triad is occupied by their physical body, formed of natural, physical Forces, and so not part of their "soul" considered as a supernatural entity. A six-Force human can have a Force in each sephiroth of the two upper triads. In humans, Manifestation is also occupied by their physical body. In celestials, it is occupied by the vessels. So a nine-Force angel with one vessel can have each serphiroth occupied and is a sort of standard, even if most don't have Forces evenly distributed among sephiroth. Ditto a seven-Force demon or a six-force Soldier. (Humans *ought* to have six forces, but since the Fall in Eden, most have only five, generally reflected in impairment in the Crown sephira.) So what use are they? Well, game color, if you like it. And it uses Forces as game-world entities. You could use it to add detail to force-stripping or horrible Vapulan experiments on celestials. Perhaps an angel can fake being a demon by having its Grace sephira paralyzed but retain its angelic nature by still having its Crown sephira active. Or what happens if you try to insert a vessel into a human's Manifestation sephira when it already has a body? Is this lycanthropy (if the vessel is wolf-shaped)? Do you get dopplegangers? Astral projection? Also, it gives a slightly more detailed-sounding answer to the question of where a celestial's vessel goes when it isn't using it; it's been moved from Manifestation to Foundation. Stuff like that. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 08:31:32 -0800 (PST) From: Querent Subject: SJ's Power Trip (was IN> Extinction) I disagree. Mr. Jackson is knows things. A: Dinosaurs ruled the Earth for millions of years. B: The Illuminati rule the Earth now. You suggest that should an idea come along that does not support both of these views, he may still wish to publish it. Please, do not leave your home. A "persuasion" team has already been dispatched to your location. Pay no attention to the black unmarked van across the street, or the gentlemen in black setting up camp out front. They are of no concern. All will be made apparent in the New World Order. - ---David Edelstein wrote: > I don't think it's correct to say that every game Steve Jackson publishes > is going to reflect his personal views. Yeah, he's a dinosaur buff, but > he's quite capable of publishing a game that suggests dinosaurs never > really existed, it's all a plot by the Illuminati. == --Querent USELESS FACT: Why are the command centers on submarines sometimes cloaked in red light? No, Red Alert is not the right answer. Stop watching Star Trek. In daylight hours, the command center is lit normally, but at night, the only lights are red to dilate the pupils. That way, if the periscope is needed, the crew's eyes are already adjusted to the lack of sunlight. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 11:38:12 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Extinction Thomas Davidson wrote: > But it's strange: Nephilim and In Nomine must have been using the > same source for this. Just to hazzard a guess, in "Castle Falkenstein," the dragons are a race of intelligent, magic-using pterosaurs witha history tracing back to the dinosaur era, and I think this pre-dates both "Nephilim" and SJG's IN (though not the French original). Might this be the source? Of course, dinosaurs = dragons = ancient magic race is not too hard an idea to evolve in parallel. I once did it, too. Edgar Rice Burroughs used something like it for his "Pellucidar" books, which may be the inspiration for the dragons of Falkenstein. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 16:46:20 -0000 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: IN> Vox Pop (did an odd demonic word yesterday. This is a wacky angelic one. I got the idea from 'Orpheus in the Underworld') Ayesha, Angel of Public Opinion, Seraphim Master of Flowers (now however did it get the nickname 'She-who-must-be-obeyed'?) Novalis is an optimist who believes that human nature is basically good. She gets very upset at attempts to manipulate the masses which over-ride this basic goodness, so she was happy to sponsor one of her more uptight servitors for the word of public opinion (technically the word awarded was 'vox populi' but its been translated to move with the times) at the beginning of the 19th century. Ayesha also believes that although the public can be stupid when viewed as a mass, public opinion can also be a huge moralising force. The 'public' believes that government should be honest, the legal system should be just, children should not be abused, the rain forests should not be destroyed etc etc even if the public doesn't seem to want to pay the price, and even if individuals may not agree. Ayesha put in a strong showing during the Victorian period, against nasty demonic opposition, and was a mortal enemy of Nybbas even before he became a prince. They harbour a strong personal hatred for each other and it has spent most of her time this century trying to fight his use of the media to sway public opinion in directions which it doesn't agree with. It can sometimes be counted on to appear as a divine intervention, stop any fights (with its seraph of flowers attunement) and lecture all parties, demons and angels alike, on how violence is a Bad Thing and the public doesn't approve. Vessel: Ayesha usually appears as a middle-aged, middle-class female with an umbrella that she can wave at people to attract their attention. She seems to enjoy lecturing people on morality. Rite: Get an article into the mass media which affects public opinion in a more moral direction. Attunement: 'Vox Populi': This is very like Laurence's 'master' attunement. The angel may spend one essence and order someone to do something because it is what public opinion demands of someone in their position and be obeyed with no argument. (ie. 'Minister, you have been caught embezzling public funds. The public demand that you resign immediately!') jo ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 11:22:04 -0600 (CST) From: djdees Subject: Re: IN> Extinction On Wed, 7 Jan 1998, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > Of course, dinosaurs = dragons = ancient magic race is not too hard > an idea to evolve in parallel. I once did it, too. Edgar Rice > Burroughs used something like it for his "Pellucidar" books, which > may be the inspiration for the dragons of Falkenstein. > Robert Howard used it in both his Conan and Kull stuff. HP Lovecraft, Lin Carter, L. Sprague de Camp, and many others of that era (which I believe includes Burroughs) used the Ancient Reptilian Magic race that early humans overthrew. Harry Harrison's Eden books used it too. Derek djdees@mm.com http://www.mm.com/user/djdees/ The darkness drops again; but now I know That twenty centuries of stony sleep Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle, And what rough beast, its hour come round at last, Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born? W.B. Yeats "The Second Coming" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 12:21:06 -0500 From: "Thomas Davidson" Subject: Re: IN> Extinction - ---------- > From: Earl Wajenberg > To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > Subject: Re: IN> Extinction > Date: Wednesday, January 07, 1998 11:38 AM > > Thomas Davidson wrote: > > > But it's strange: Nephilim and In Nomine must have been using the > > same source for this. > > Just to hazzard a guess, in "Castle Falkenstein," the dragons are > a race of intelligent, magic-using pterosaurs witha history tracing > back to the dinosaur era, and I think this pre-dates both "Nephilim" > and SJG's IN (though not the French original). Might this be the > source? > I don't know. That depends largely on when CF was published. Nephilim was based on a French RPG published by MultiSim back in (IIRC) 93. Weird synergy, eh? > Of course, dinosaurs = dragons = ancient magic race is not too hard > an idea to evolve in parallel. I once did it, too. Edgar Rice > Burroughs used something like it for his "Pellucidar" books, which > may be the inspiration for the dragons of Falkenstein. > Yes, it *is* very easy to draw that parallel. But I think that Neph at least has a source. I seem to recall a book called "The Continent of Mu" or something similar that they got this from. It was a very serious scientific treatise (ahem!) on the possibility that dinosaurs were an intelligent race, ruled by a Tyrannosaur (sp?) name Mu. To put it simply, the author might have been more than a little cracked, neh? Neph also draws quite a bit from Kaballistic lore (in fact, I sense an IN adventure seed germinating (heh) in the back of my mind somewhere... I'll work on it a little bit... but that's what this list's for, isn't it? To steal...errr...give each other ideas... :) ). > Earl Thomas Davidson tdavidso@suffolk.lib.ny.us MUSIC: Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, Rolling Stones, Rush, Jimi Hendrix GAMES: Champions (old and new), In Nomine, Nephilim TV: The X-Files, The Simpsons, Superman, The Tick, The Animaniacs OTHER: Religion, Philosophy, mysticism, the runes, the Tarot, writing ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 12:57:35 -0500 (EST) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> Seed: You Go Yahweh, I'll Go My Way On Wed, 7 Jan 1998, Emily Dresner wrote: > different form of God entirely. (I have, in fact, come to the conclusion > that the Lilim are a product of Greek Orthodox paradoxs, which they seem > to love so much, but for different reasons entirely.) Explain this, please....you've piqued my interest. - -- Casca, Seraph of Archives (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 21:06:47 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Extinction At 7:43 AM -0500 1/6/98, LAstley wrote: >>At first I thought Evolution would be suitable, but that's a general >>word for the process of changing from 'worse' to 'better'. Just as >>species can evolve, so can an idea or a software package. > >does evolution, natural selection etc exist in the IN universe? It's implied that it does, in the History of the Angels in the APG. Of course, that's what *they* think of as history... [Still dealing with non-urgent email from the 400 messages from vacation] - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 21:00:10 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Who are you, anyway? At 10:29 PM -0500 1/5/98, David Edelstein wrote: >>>>Question Everybody.. If you were a non-mundane thing in the In >Nomine universe, what would you be??<<< > >Hmm. Elohite of Judgment, if I really had to pick. (And that Angry Discord >really causes problems sometimes...) > >-David (I haven't Fallen yet. Really. I *am* an angel...don't listen to >Beth, I am not a DP. >:)=) (Of course not. You're an Archangel Prince. We knew that... O;> ) [Still dealing with non-urgent email from the 400 messages from vacation] - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 14:43:03 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Forces as Game-World Objects At 10:47 AM -0500 1/6/98, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >Elizabeth McCoy wrote: [...] >There is a system of Jewish mysticism called Cabbalah (spelled 87 >different ways), which is enjoying some popularity just now. One >part of the system is the "Tree of Life," a diagram that is supposed >to represent the metaphysical structure of the universe AND the soul. >It consists of ten "sephiroth" (singular, "sephira"). It's tempting >to say Forces = sephiroth = metaphysical "organs," parts of the soul. > >Then, any well-informed celestial would routinely know about Forces >as distinct objects, the way we've all heard of spleens and livers. Ahhhhhh. Good point, very good point... >Of course, there's a problem with the variable numbers of Forces >in characters, but I think a little ingenuity could get around that. >In fact, I have been considering things. I shall probably post >a note on Cabbalistic IN soon. I think that if I were doing something like that, I'd say that the Tree of Life diagram is, like everything else in In Nomine, somewhat erronious. (Perhaps it measures something in the typical human, who is 5 Forces, 10 being 5 doubled?) Surely Superiors can *see* the Force composition of people, in Cel-form at least ("it's a five-dimensional construct, with areas of concentration thus and so")... So it might be a case of Superiors knowing exact numbers, and non-Superiors just feeling their way along and taking their bosses' word for how many they have. ("No, really, you've got 18 Forces. Trust me." "Yes, Lord Mammon.") At 5:53 PM -0600 1/5/98, Dataweaver wrote: >On Mon, 5 Jan 1998, Querent wrote: > >> Certainly the difference could be told (provided some method other >> than simple perception were used.) But never would a quantifiable >> amount be used. I can look at the person next to me, and say "Gee, >> he's much stronger than I am" but I'd be hard pressed to say "Looks >> like he's got 3 more points of Strength than I have." >> >> Provided the observer had a means to discern the amount of >> forces/essence, the difference would be relational, not quantitative. > >Playing devil's advocate here... > >If this is true, why does the IN rulebook state that a "free Lilim" owes >Lilith nine Favors - _one for every Force he/she has_? Hrm.... Um.... Hm. I guess what we need is something like a "unit of Essence". Okay, so there's probably some minimum amount of Essence that can be used to make a Song work, right? Take Numinious Corpus, probably -- those only use 1 Essence each. Okay, so you've got a concept like, "The minimum amount of Essence required to make a Song of Wings work is this amount here. We shall term this minimum amount a 'feather'." (Or "note" or something.) Now, a new-fledged demon who has just transformed from an imp to an Impudite can (if taught the Song) perform it up to seven times. As he gains in power, the Forces that compose his being become larger -- or more numerous. The latter is probably right, because as he gains in power, he gains the ability to perform that Song more often. Therefore, let us say that he has Forces in direct equivalent to notes of Essence he can hold: 7. It is well known that newborn angels have more: 9. (I'd go on in this vein, but the process is making me a little wonky -- I think it's the brownies a neighbor gave us...) [Still dealing with non-urgent email from the 400 messages from vacation] - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 13:38:38 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #537 At 3:58 PM +0000 1/6/98, Kevin Walsh wrote: [...] >ObMunchie-Can Lucid Dreaming Sorcerors learn Ethereal Songs? If they can somehow -- via dealing with Beleth, Blandine, or ethereal spirits -- get such a *strong* spiritual connection to the Marches... Yes, they can become Dream Soldiers. But they'll very likely require that link to a "native" of the Marches. Of course, since they're wandering around the Marches anyway, it's pretty likely that they'll be noticed and recruited eventually. [Still dealing with non-urgent email from the 400 messages from vacation] - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 14:16:01 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Who are you, anyway? At 7:57 PM +0000 1/6/98, GR Cogman wrote: >Since everyone else is confessing: > >Elohite of Creation, in service to Blandine. > >(Though ever since I started looking at that Kult stuff, I've been wandering >nearer to Beleth's Marches...) (So *that's* why you do Habbie so well... Hrm. ) - --Beth, Archangel of Archives (Lilim, Kyrio, who knows!!) - --Beth, Princess of Nitpicking (Djinn, the precise kind; gets along real well with Azzie. "You do the rules and I'll make sure they're all consistant.") ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 13:25:25 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Christian Mods for In Nomine At 2:25 PM +0000 1/6/98, Kevin Walsh wrote: >> [...] >Why isn't Michael the commander of God's armies in official In Nomine, >anyway? He was, until he was tried for vainglory by Dominic. Around there he stepped down/was kicked out (depends on if you ask an angel or demon), in favor for Uriel (who was buds with Dommie). When Uriel was called upstairs, Mike didn't make any moves, so the Seraphim Council sorted through the existing Word-bound in Uriel's ranks (the ones who didn't defect, at least...). Laurence was the one chosen. (As for dissonance... A Sword stands straight and rigid, while War can be dirty and tricksy. (or so I'd figure) And Mike *used* to be the leader of all; Larry's young, a former Servitor of Purity, and new at this. Mike bails him out from time to time...) [Still dealing with non-urgent email from the 400 messages from vacation] - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 14:21:16 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> A resonance question At 6:24 AM +1100 1/7/98, Patrick O'Duffy wrote: >G'day. > With angels, quite a few have Resonances that are very similar - >Elohim, Malakim and Mercurian. Now, is there a limit as to how often >these resonances can be used on a subject, or a delay after failing with >them (other than when you fail with a cd of 6)? No limit until an unsuccessful roll. Then the resonance won't work on that subject for CD hours. (p. 57, first column, first full paragraph beginning on that page.) So ya gots a Malakite with a 5 Perception, say, and he wants to honor-check 3 people. #1: he succeeds, gets data. He can keep rolling for this one until he fails, to try to get more data. #2: he fails, with a CD of 1; for the next hour, he can't try to read guy #2. He goes back and trys #1 again, and amazingly makes it. More data. #3: he fails with a CD of 6, and now can't do *anything* for a few hours. If he'd failed with a lesser CD, he could still go back and look at 1 again. [Still dealing with non-urgent email from the 400 messages from vacation] - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 14:42:45 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Wordbond Rites/Dissonance/etc (Was Re: IN> Headaches) At 9:08 PM -0500 1/5/98, Casca wrote: >On Mon, 5 Jan 1998, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >> A Wordbound may attract servitors (if not Servitors). He can >> give them access to his particular Rite(s). Attunements? I think >> the current canon is a little dubious about it. If he *has* >> Servitor attunements, then maybe; not Band/Choir attunements, >> though, I think... Lemme get back to you on that. >What I want to know is, When does a Wordbound gain unique Dissonance >Conditions? At a specific forces rating? When it becomes an Archangel? I think it's when he's an Archangel/Prince, and jumps to that higher power-band... >I'm currently toying with the notion that the DC are part and parcel of >being Wordbound -- you embody a Word, you get Dissonance for going >against it. The DC is unique to you, until such time as you gain >servitors. When that happens, you pass the DC on to them. Also plausible. Something that will need more thought... () [Still dealing with non-urgent email from the 400 messages from vacation] - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 21:04:52 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: Anime off-topic (Re: IN> IN Anime movie trailer : 2) Rogue writes: >>>All suggestions are appreciated- but ArchBeth, I warn you... start >>>inflicting Geasa on me and I *will* play dirty for revenge. ;) >> >> Why would I inflict Geasa upon you? > >Well, as the Demon Of Running Red Lights, it is quite obvious that my >services could be of *immense* value to the Word of Archives, in such >situations as.... uhm.... err... never mind, then. Mmmmmm? >Seriously though, thanks to ArchBeth and Redneck and Casca and everybody >else for the tips... I'll pick a day sometime soon and make the trip to the >nearest place that rents anime (a good thirty miles or so- doable, but >annoying). Looks like Dominion Tank Police and Devilman are absolutes; the >rest I'll just go and be spontaneous about. Have fun! At 8:08 PM -0600 1/5/98, Redneck Gaijin wrote: >>Oh My Goddess. Maybe more Tenchi if you cross your eyes (it starts >>making more sense around the 5th or so episode, and it's a fun >>ride). > >Tenchi OVA, that is. Tenchi TV is fun, but not so much so as the OVA, and >when the New Tenchi TV series comes over, it'll stink. }:-{P Point. Yes, Tenchi OVA/OAVs. >>There might be Wicked City, which has Shedim porn in it *and* >>Djinn-porn (I kid you not), but I don't know because I only >>ever saw the non-subbed, non-dubbed version, and started >>somewhere in the middle, so I haven't got a clue what it's >>*really* about -- but it looks like a lot of demons running >>around playing with humans. Definitely not an entirely nice >>film. > >Wicked City Shinjuku, if you're looking for the dub or sub in stores. It >will probably be hard to find. I bet Suncoast Video could find it. Just don't tell them *anything* about what it's about. >>For simple coolstuff... >> >>Ranma 1/2, definitely. > >Only if you're into fluffy slapstick comedy (which I am). And fluffy slapstick love-triangles, funky martial arts stuff... We love Ranma. >>Kimagure Orange Road (psi powers, love triangle...) > >I actually hate KOR. The lead character is possibly the most spineless >character in all anime, his family is 100% irresponsible, and the pacing and >storytelling of the series bore me to tears. The OVAs are like that? I hadn't gotten that impression. :-( >>El-Hazard: alternate world stuff, very neat. Shayla-Shayla is a Malakite >> of Fire! > >Again, the OVA series is better than the TV series. We haven't seen the TV series yet, though we want to. >And what would you call Ifurita anyway? A Grigori Archangel? Hm. I don't think she's *quite* a Superior. But close. Hm. Redeemed, whatever she is. >>Neon Genesis Evangelion! Illuminated! Things called "Angels"! A >> starting theme song that is really cool! >> Rei! (Rei *rules*. I love that character.) > >If you don't like 'artsy' stuff or Kabbalistic references, -avoid-. Also, if >you didn't like the original 'Gall Force,' run away from 'Evangelion.' NGE isn't artsy! It's Illuminated! But it is very twisty and does have a lot of introspection from the main character, in a "coming of age" kind of thing. >>Slayers (for a lot of Silly *D&D kinds of things, though Nathaniel >> was less thrilled than we) > >Very fun, although (being a heterosexual male) I much prefer Naga to Gourry >as Lina's traveling companion. }:-{D Gourry? Oh, phoo on him. Give me the golem sorcerer kid. YUM! >>Bubblegum Crisis is okay; go Silia go! (So, is she an Elohite?) > >Not a chance. Sylia, if anything, is a Habbalite. She's fighting for revenge. But she's so cool and calm and collected most of the time. It's not just revenge, it's the right thing to do! Elohite. >>Bubblegum Crash... could be better. >Bubblegum Crash... could be Bubblegum Crisis. But it wasn't. Exactly. *sigh* >>Cutey Honey (Lots of fan service! >>Kekko Kamen (Lots of fan service!) > >Both by Go Nagai, who also created 'Devilman,' which IMHO should be a >'must-see' for IN players. Nagai is noted for being no-holds-barred on sex, >violence, and slapstick. And breasts the size of watermelons for most of the female villians? >>La Blue Girl ("Japornamation"/"Pornime") would be better if it didn't >> have that stupid Nin-nin thing. Yeesh. Demons and >> "sex-craft" ninja and all sorts of silliness. > >La Blue Girl is on my 'avoid' list. It's stupid. It's poorly animated. Most >importantly, it's what everyone and their uncle thinks of besides Speed >Racer when you say 'Japanese cartoons.' It's got some cute bits, though. It's very silly. >>Devil Hunter Yohko! (A Soldier with a Relic...) > >More like, 110 Soldiers with Relics. }:-{D Naaaaaaa -- there's only about 3-4 of them, unless you count the timetravel one which I'd rather not... >>Warriors of the Wind is an evil, awful dub-job -- but the music and >> plot and characters and art just sucked me in. > >Look for 'Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind,' either as a fansub or the >original manga by Hayao Miyazaki. It's worth the search. The manga is great. Yes, look for that. Fansub? I WANT!!!! >>Ushio and Tora: a story of a boy and his demon. Tora is a Djinn and >> and I *adore* him. > >And Ushio is obviously either a Soldier with a Relic, or more likely a >descendant of Grigori. Or both. >>They Were 11: the manga is better in some ways, but the food-fight >> in the anime is cool. This is a very character-based >> thing. > >Have yet to see this one, actually. It's possibly a little on the artsy side, but I liked it. >>Princess Minerva: an astounding amount of plot for something with >> so much fan service... > >You found a PLOT? Sure! "Highstrung Princess collects random assortment of PC-like characters (i.e., they have very little reason to hang out together but they do), goes to rescue someone she just realized was her best friend, and Much Mayhem Occures." Plot! >>Something about a magical carpet that I can't remember the name >> of right now, but which gave us the idea that magical power is >> in inverse proportion to intelligence... > >"The Girl from Phantasia," another time-waster. Overall, yes, it's a fantasy-remake of Lum; but the intelligence/power equation was amusing to kibbitz. >>PatLabor: Reading both the manga and watching the anime is best. > >Avoid the movies. Talking heads for 1:45, action for :15. TV series is fun. We just watched the movie 2. Very... Well, the *animation* was UTTERLY SPECTACULAR. The talking heads. Yes, well... >>Phantom Corp. (I think that's the title...) I want her lipstick lightsaber! >> Sort of a Japanese Ghostbusters. > >You-sen-gai-sya, I think. "Phantom Quest Corporation." Hilarious. Utterly. >>For things to avoid: >>Plastic Little is high on fan service, high on explosions, negligable >> on plot. Worth the $1 to rent it. >No it's not. Well, depends on how you feel about the fan-service, I suppose. >>Dragon Pink: more pornime, and is okay, but I prefer more attitude in >> the victim. > >Another basic time-waster, unless you like rape. Exactly. She needs attitude! Attitude! >>Gude Crest: For some reason, didn't grab us. > >Never heard of this one before. Swordswoman and Sorceress. Could have been a lot better. Failing being better, could have had more fan service. >You totally left out 'Urusei Yatsura,' which to my mind is a crying shame. #1: I forgot how to spell it, and #2, we only watched a little of it and it didn't grab us like Ranma did. I liked the rich kid with the tank, though. There's also Ellicia (spelling?), which may be interesting. >Of course, there's the question of which kind of IN demon Lum is... }:-{D She's a Bright Lilim Outcast of Lightning with the Generator attunement. And if you can find out she's from Lightning, you can blackmail Jean. >I'd recommend other anime as well, but unfortunately it would have >absolutely zero application to IN. }:-{D Oh, well, true. [Still dealing with non-urgent email from the 400 messages from vacation] - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #553 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.