From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Jan 13 17:07:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA16364 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 17:07:03 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id RAA06613 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 17:02:19 -0600 Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 17:02:19 -0600 Message-Id: <199801132302.RAA06613@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #563 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, January 13 1998 Volume 01 : Number 563 In this digest: Infiltration (was Re: IN> Of Vessels and Roles... ) Re: IN> Losing your wings? Re: IN> Of Vessels and Roles... Re: IN> Losing your wings? Re: IN> Questions, apparently not frequently asked Re: Re: IN> In Nomine Jewelry Re: Re: IN> In Nomine Jewelry Re: Re: IN> In Nomine Jewelry Re: Re: Re: IN> In Nomine Jewelry IN> [FLUFF] In Nomine MET LARP IN> How big an echo? Re: IN> In Nomine Jewelry Re: IN> Back on topic? (was Anime off-topic) Re: Re: Re: IN> In Nomine Jewelry Re: IN> Of Vessels and Roles Re: IN> Back on topic? (was Anime off-topic) IN> Celestial Tongue (was Re: IN> Malakite and dissonance) Re: IN> Back on topic? (was Anime off-topic) Re: IN> Malakite and dissonance Re: Re: Re: IN> In Nomine Jewelry Re: IN> Celestial Tongue (was Re: IN> Malakite and dissonance) Re: IN> In Nomine Jewelry Re: IN> Back on topic? (was Anime off-topic) Re: Re: Re: IN> In Nomine Jewelry Re: IN> Of Vessels and Roles Re: IN> In Nomine Jewelry Re: Re: Re: IN> In Nomine Jewelry Re: Re: IN> In Nomine Jewelry IN> Faith and Celestials Re: Re: Re: IN> In Nomine Jewelry Disturbance (Re: IN> Losing your wings?) Re: IN> Malakite and dissonance Re: IN> Lilim of Eris Re: IN> Celestial Tongue (was Re: IN> Malakite and dissonance) White Wolf LARPS & Seraphim & Faith (Re: IN> In Nomine Jewelry) Infiltration (Re: IN> Of Vessels and Roles) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 14:29:25 -0000 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: Infiltration (was Re: IN> Of Vessels and Roles... ) >> Might be a bit tricky when the seraph asks you who your boss is, or the >> mercurian decides to resonate you though ;) >I thought we were talking about angels infiltrating the Soldiers of Hell. >You want the seraph not to kill you, surely. You're right, I can't read straight today. In this case, you probably just have to be careful that no-one notices how quickly you heal (I can't remember if soldiers heal at the celestial rate but I have a feeling not) or tries to follow you into your dreamscape. As well as avoiding being seen in celestial form. (The other way to easily spot diabolicals if you are an angel is to take them to a celestial tether and see if they can go in -- of course you'll have blown the tether's location but this is probably less bad in the long run). jo ps. Can I just say that Casca is a hero who has found files for me to dump on the web that I forgot ever having written! If this odd squiggly thing that I found under my doormat this morning turns out to be someone's voting sigil (now how could that have got there?) he gets my vote for the word of continuity tracking! (Did I say that right?? :) ) pps. Here's a plot hook. What if an archangel's voting sigil really did go missing? We know Blandine regularly gives hers to one of her menunim to use and that Eli & Janus rarely use theirs at all... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 09:33:07 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Losing your wings? Let's see... The player would rather like to switch to Mercurian or some other choir, but was the character theoretically happy being a Malakite? If so, then perhaps the Superior could restore the ninth force and re-make it as a Mercurian (or whatever) as a *punishment* (from the character perspective). If the player likes the new choir better, as expected, then the fact that the character makes a better whatzit than a Malakite just goes to show that Superiors are, after all, wiser than the average angel and even their punishments are really good for you. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 09:36:57 -0500 From: johnk@ascc01.ascc.lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) Subject: Re: IN> Of Vessels and Roles... > I wish there was some way for non-Kyriotates to leave their body behind, > perhaps with basic "I'm being awakened" type alarms set it. I keep > looking at Song of Projection for this, but the Corporeal version lasts > time measured in _rounds_, which means that basically the celestial's > whole night is wasted, and they can only do it once every couple of > days. Get a very specialized 'body bag'. Have it look like a bracelet that you never take off (except, somewhat paradoxically, when you are actually using that vessel). Pay a few extra points to the GM, for the 'wake up call' feature. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 14:46:44 +0000 (GMT) From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Losing your wings? > > She's building a nuclear bomb, with Uranium given to her, indirectly, > by Fex himself. Its useless Uranium, but she's made a plant that > filters out the bad stuff and gives her the good stuff--- which > she can use to build a bomb.. > > That would flood the catacombs.. What she dosnt know, is that it > could very well cause a huge earthquake and destroy Enchanted Rock too. Even without the earthquake, and assuming no loss of life, it's going to be bad. That bomb will probably cause several multiples of 4 hits damage to stuff. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 14:49:11 +0000 (GMT) From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Questions, apparently not frequently asked > True story: Someone very high up in SJG was > reading that Song to mean that you can attack with BOTH > feet and BOTH hands at the same time, for a total of FOUR > attacks! I shudder to think. I don't want to imagine those damage totals. (I consider 40 body hits barely adequate as it stands.) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 10:41:40 -0500 From: "Kirt A. Dankmyer -- aka Loki" Subject: Re: Re: IN> In Nomine Jewelry >I've gotta second that idea! They'd be cheap to make, and if they didn't >look too tacky, they'd add something...though I don't know if any >celestial in their right mind would actually walk around *advertising* >like that...:) Just like no vampire would go around advertising his clan to hunters, no? Yet it happens at the MET LARP here all the time... ;) ObIN: I like the idea of wearing a Seraph pin to a White Wolf LARP -- it should confuse people. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 12:01:28 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: Re: IN> In Nomine Jewelry On Tue, 13 Jan 1998, Kirt A. Dankmyer -- aka Loki wrote: > ObIN: I like the idea of wearing a Seraph pin to a White Wolf LARP -- it > should confuse people. "I'm going to use Auspex. Mental challenge." "I yield." "Okay then, you have to truthfully answer three questions." "Sure. No problem." "Are you a vampire?" "No." "Are you a human?" "No." "What are you?" [Evil smile from Seraph player] "Let me show you...Oh, by the way, how much agg would True Faith at 10 do?" Rich Gant Malakim of ELi in service to Michael ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 17:28:29 +0000 (GMT) From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: Re: IN> In Nomine Jewelry > "What are you?" > > [Evil smile from Seraph player] "Let me show you...Oh, by the way, how > much agg would True Faith at 10 do?" > Do Seraphs have to have True Faith? Wouldn't some of them just have Faith? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 12:49:37 -0500 (EST) From: IQJason@aol.com Subject: Re: Re: Re: IN> In Nomine Jewelry "Do Seraphs have to have True Faith? Wouldn't some of them just have Faith?" A local Storyteller is of the opinion that Angels, as embodiments of the power of God, *are* True Faith. yours, - -J ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 13:07:21 -0500 From: "Kirt A. Dankmyer -- aka Loki" Subject: IN> [FLUFF] In Nomine MET LARP >"What are you?" > >[Evil smile from Seraph player] "Let me show you...Oh, by the way, how >much agg would True Faith at 10 do?" Heh. This has already come up, tho the players don't know it. See, I run one of the MET games around here, and there was this one player who was all about summoning a demon... We figured if he tried it, he'd make a mistake and we'd give him a Seraph of Gabriel. After all, most vampires benefiet from being cruel... -Loki (unfortunately, tho, he died before trying it) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 13:14:34 -0500 From: eswhanu@juno.com Subject: IN> How big an echo? BTW, I did the math for a 240 point disturbance (if you are playing in the Live Action In Nomine I'm running at Dreamation in NJ, ***Jason :)*** , it will make much more sense then) An average Celestial with 3 Celestial Forces and a 6 Perception will have a good chance to hear the Disturbance from 33.7 ***Miles*** away... Just thought you might like to know. Brian Ward The psycho actually attempting to run Live Action In Nomine. On Tue, 13 Jan 1998 08:00:35 -0500 Brandon Quina writes: >> Bah, that's nothing. I manipulated my Shedite friend into nuking a >> small French town. (Baal wanted it, mine is not to reason why.) >> Can you say million-point disturbance? My GM reckons the echoes >should>> last about a year, after which he'll be able to get back to Earth >> without Celestial perceptions picking him up as the cause of the >> disturbance. > >Err, if you manipulated your Shedite friend into nuking it, wouldnt >he have caused the disturbance.. Not you.. > > >Anyways, that reminds me.. What kinda disturbance would Mitrah cause >if her little scheme to destroy the Catacombs goes through and she >DOES destroy her tether and cause a huge earthquake?? > >-- >(lore@tmgbbs.com) \\/// >Brandon Lance Quina (x x) >ICQ Number: 6809944 ---ooO(_)Ooo--- > > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 13:35:19 -0500 From: Brandon Quina Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Jewelry > A local Storyteller is of the opinion that Angels, as embodiments of > the power of God, *are* True Faith. Im weird, but ive viewed that-- as angels are the embodiments of god, they are /above/ true faith. They cant possess it. Not even at 1 dot. But this is off topic, so lets go back to IN stuff :) - -- (lore@tmgbbs.com) \\/// Brandon Lance Quina (x x) ICQ Number: 6809944 ---ooO(_)Ooo--- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 13:43:51 +0000 From: Nathaniel Eliot Subject: Re: IN> Back on topic? (was Anime off-topic) > I want a T-shirt that reads "I am *NOT* a Balseraph!"... And on the back: > *Trust* me. Maya, are you listening? It's officially a product idea... > >Being unemotional doesn't mean you can't fake it. Plus, me and Saph > >don't have much in common, though I can sympathize with some of her > >more violent impulses. > > And the wandering around spying on people? Okay, so she's paranoid as well. You would be too, with her upbringing. Plus, it's very pragmatic - it's the easiest way for her to get the information needed. Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@mci2000.com Changing addresses faster than an Ophanite with a house mover! It's temujin9@...um...where are you this week, Nate? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 19:18:32 +0000 (GMT) From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: Re: Re: IN> In Nomine Jewelry > "Do Seraphs have to have True Faith? Wouldn't some of them just have Faith?" > > A local Storyteller is of the opinion that Angels, as embodiments of the > power of God, *are* True Faith. > Bringing God into White Wolf games is a bad idea, especially as True Faith works just as well for pagans. I can't see most In Nomine Angels being True Faith either. Some of them doubt, after all. And an Elohite would have to be very careful about it. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 13:19:48 -0500 (EST) From: "York H. Dobyns" Subject: Re: IN> Of Vessels and Roles emccoy@pop.nh.ultranet.com writes: >At 9:01 AM -0500 1/10/98, Matthias Mueller wrote: >At 4:55 PM +0100 1/12/98, d.ranzato@bpa.vnu.com wrote: >> Oh joy, theft-of-identity, Celestial style. I will note that bumping >>> somebody off to take on their identity is definitely a demonic tactic, >>> unless the human in question is such a lowlife that even angels will >>> figure he deserves to die rather than have a chance at redemption. >>It is an excellent way to get spies on the Other Side. Just kill a Soldi= >er >>of Lucifer (they deserve to die) then create an angel who looks and acts >>just like him. Of course, the angel will surely Fall if he acts too good >>but hey, that=B4s life! > >This is what Elohim are for. So long as they act only because the >pose requires it.... Ruthless, manipulative. Will kill those on >their own side if necessary. Cold, cold things. There's a problem with this whole approach. A Soldier of the other side is the *last* mortal a celestial can expect to be able to kill and replace. They're sworn to Superiors, after all, and will show up in the Superior's territory when they die. "What are you doing *here*? I just got a report from , and she said everything proceeding according to plan and they're counting on your team to plant the...uh-oh..." Followed, probably, by a brisk visit to the corporeal realm and some mild exercise for the Superior. Granted, the immediate commander of the deceased Soldier will catch a lot of flak for gross negligence, waste of valuable resources, etc., etc.; but that's cold comfort to the would-be impersonator who just went mano-a-mano with a Demon Prince or Archangel, as the case might be. Or, if the situation is not urgent enough for the Superior to manifest directly, it's one of the ugliest counterespionage situations imaginable: when the enemy has totally blown your cover and is allowing you to *think* you're still secure. Nope, substituting for a Soldier of the other side is just not going to work. One needs to bear in mind that even "mortal" characters don't simply cease to exist when they die, in this game. (Except for Undead. And I can just see an angel trying to explain to his Superior why he wants an undead Vessel.) In fact, this may invalidate the whole switch-and-replace notion for *any* mortal, unless it's a mortal on your own side of the fence (so that the Other Side doesn't get alerted by the unexpected arrival in the celestial plane of a soul who's allegedly still alive and doing stuff on Earth), or somebody so unimportant that nobody is particularly paying attention to them. Which more or less rules out all of the interesting pivotal figures you'd *want* to do a switch on. About the only remaining justification for a replacement-scheme switch of this kind, I suspect, is if some mortal gets killed by enemy action and you absolutely *need* some further action that only he, or a perfect replica, can perform. Which sounds like it could be an adventure seed in itself. "Congratulations, Tariel, I'm awarding you a new Vessel. For free. And it comes with a cushy, high-Status Role. I'm sure you will enjoy it. Now the bad news is..." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 19:51:47 GMT From: maya@tcp.co.uk (GR Cogman) Subject: Re: IN> Back on topic? (was Anime off-topic) >> I want a T-shirt that reads "I am *NOT* a Balseraph!"... > >And on the back: > >> *Trust* me. > >Maya, are you listening? It's officially a product idea... Hm? I suspect you mean Em. ;) >> >Being unemotional doesn't mean you can't fake it. Plus, me and Saph >> >don't have much in common, though I can sympathize with some of her >> >more violent impulses. >> >> And the wandering around spying on people? > >Okay, so she's paranoid as well. You would be too, with her >upbringing. Plus, it's very pragmatic - it's the easiest way for >her to get the information needed. Absolutely: efficiency is vital. - --- Maya, Elohim of Eli in service to Blandine maya@tcp.co.uk - -- "There are those who say that wizards are subject to temptations and addictions beyond the understanding of ordinary men: the addiction to shape-changing, or to meditation under the influence of certain herbs and conditions of the stars; the obsession with knowledge, and the development of power. Yet this is not so. Temptation is temptation, obsession is obsession, and choice is choice." - Isar Chelladan, Precepts of Wizardry. -- "Dog Wizard", Barbara Hambly. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 13:35:14 -0500 (EST) From: "York H. Dobyns" Subject: IN> Celestial Tongue (was Re: IN> Malakite and dissonance) Pee Kitty writes: >If the Balseraph is smart, he will simply make the Malakim speak the >angelic tongue (either by going Celestial, using Singing skill, or if he >has that one distinction of Michael or Laurence--forget which), since it >cannot express a falsehood. Oh yeah, about that language that no one can lie in. I was a little surprised that they didn't seem to make the distinction, since they were so careful about it in describing the Seraph's truthreading resonance. But: is it that the angelic language cannot frame statements that are *false to fact*, or that it cannot be used to make statements *that the speaker disbelieves*? I see possible headaches either way. In the former, angels have a sure-fire method of identifying any demon: upon encountering a suspect, go find a private place, spend 2 Essence to go Celestial, and attempt to say "So-and-so is a demon" in the angelic tongue. In the latter, Balseraphs can still lie in the angelic tongue, since they hoodwink themselves into believing their own lies. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 15:15:09 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Back on topic? (was Anime off-topic) > >> I want a T-shirt that reads "I am *NOT* a Balseraph!"... > > > >And on the back: > > > >> *Trust* me. > > > >Maya, are you listening? It's officially a product idea... > > Hm? I suspect you mean Em. ;) > Huh? What? I wasn't even in town that week. Don't Blame it On Me! I'm totally innocent! - - Em, T-Shirt Wearin' Balseraph. "The Hair! It's Good, Baby!" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 12:16:50 -0800 (PST) From: Querent Subject: Re: IN> Malakite and dissonance I imagine it would really depend on the oath. For example, if a demonic plot is uncovered to assassinate the pope within the next 72 hours, then the oath "I shall vigilantly stand guard for the next 4 days" is a perfectly honorable vow. "I shall hunt this foe for a week is weasily, as a malakim's honor would be tainted by giving up the chase. - ---David Edelstein wrote: > >>>What if they stick clauses into it? The Malakite can specify a time > period within an oath. So the oath may last forever, but unless Kronos > sends them back in time it's not going to affect them again.<<< > > That would be a weaselly kind of oath, and probably an abuse of their > resonance. > > -David > == --Querent USELESS FACT: The shape gamers call a "twenty sider" is an "icosahedron" to mathematicians. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 15:29:19 -0500 (EST) From: Casca Subject: Re: Re: Re: IN> In Nomine Jewelry On Tue, 13 Jan 1998, Kevin Walsh wrote: > I can't see most In Nomine Angels being True Faith either. Some of them > doubt, after all. And an Elohite would have to be very careful about it. Interesting you say that, since the Archangel of Faith, Khalid, is an Elohite. - -- Casca, Seraph of Archives (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 20:34:09 +0000 (GMT) From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Celestial Tongue (was Re: IN> Malakite and dissonance) > But: is it that the angelic language cannot frame statements that are > *false to fact*, or that it cannot be used to make statements *that the > speaker disbelieves*? I see possible headaches either way. In the former, > angels have a sure-fire method of identifying any demon: upon encountering > a suspect, go find a private place, spend 2 Essence to go Celestial, > and attempt to say "So-and-so is a demon" in the angelic tongue. And make a several point disturbance (9 is likely for less powerful angels). Not that many places are that secure. And since this is one of Dominic's distinctions, one assumes that it can't actually be done. > In the latter, Balseraphs can still lie in the angelic tongue, since > they hoodwink themselves into believing their own lies. > That isn't lying as such. You might as well say that Habbalah are lying about being angels. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 15:39:08 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Jewelry Kevin Walsh wrote: > I can't see most In Nomine Angels being True Faith either. Some of > them doubt, after all. Do things change if you consider "faith" as "loyalty" rather than "belief"? That is the other, and older, meaning of it, after all. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 20:43:12 GMT From: maya@tcp.co.uk (GR Cogman) Subject: Re: IN> Back on topic? (was Anime off-topic) > >> >> I want a T-shirt that reads "I am *NOT* a Balseraph!"... >> > >> >And on the back: >> > >> >> *Trust* me. >> > >> >Maya, are you listening? It's officially a product idea... >> >> Hm? I suspect you mean Em. ;) > >Huh? What? I wasn't even in town that week. Don't Blame it On Me! I'm >totally innocent! Ah, whoops. I meant Beth. Sorry. Someone's attempt to Charm my Kult cards off me must still be fuzzing my mind. ;) >- Em, T-Shirt Wearin' Balseraph. "The Hair! It's Good, Baby!" What, a Balseraph in a t-shirt? The mind boggles. - --- Maya, Elohim of Eli in service to Blandine maya@tcp.co.uk - -- "There are those who say that wizards are subject to temptations and addictions beyond the understanding of ordinary men: the addiction to shape-changing, or to meditation under the influence of certain herbs and conditions of the stars; the obsession with knowledge, and the development of power. Yet this is not so. Temptation is temptation, obsession is obsession, and choice is choice." - Isar Chelladan, Precepts of Wizardry. -- "Dog Wizard", Barbara Hambly. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 20:53:46 +0000 (GMT) From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: Re: Re: IN> In Nomine Jewelry > On Tue, 13 Jan 1998, Kevin Walsh wrote: > > > I can't see most In Nomine Angels being True Faith either. Some of them > > doubt, after all. And an Elohite would have to be very careful about it. > > Interesting you say that, since the Archangel of Faith, Khalid, is an > Elohite. > I said they'd have to be careful about it, not that it was impossible. But given that Faith is now logical, are there any modes of thought which are dissonant for an Elohite if the player can come up with a good enough justification for it? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 20:54:58 +0000 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: IN> Of Vessels and Roles At 13:19 13/01/98 -0500, you wrote: >emccoy@pop.nh.ultranet.com writes: > > >There's a problem with this whole approach. A Soldier of the other side >is the *last* mortal a celestial can expect to be able to kill and >replace. On the other hand, you might get away with the kidnap & drug approach. Or maybe there's some version of a body bag that can store mortals... jo ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 21:14:34 +0000 (GMT) From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Jewelry > Kevin Walsh wrote: > > > I can't see most In Nomine Angels being True Faith either. Some of > > them doubt, after all. > > Do things change if you consider "faith" as "loyalty" rather than > "belief"? That is the other, and older, meaning of it, after all. > Obviously, they change. Doubtless more angels are loyal than Faithful (as opposed to faithful). But I don't reckon that every angel is entirely loyal either, though those that aren't are certainly on the downward path. But True Faith in White Wolf games is not the same as merely believing in God, Wotan, etc. It constitutes a fanatical belief so strong that it has supernatural effects, and is considered a form of static magic by theorists. Sorry about these off-topic ramblings, but I didn't want to confuse people as to what was being talked about. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 21:26:48 +0000 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: Re: Re: IN> In Nomine Jewelry At 20:53 13/01/98 +0000, you wrote: >But given that Faith is now logical, are there any modes of thought which >are dissonant for an Elohite if the player can come up with a good enough >justification for it? > I think that honour might well be illogical if you think about it for long enough (pragmatic and honorable don't really seem to go together to me -- I s'pose Laurence must have Elohim.. or maybe not). Also good taste isn't logical ;-) jo ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 16:35:58 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: Re: IN> In Nomine Jewelry On Tue, 13 Jan 1998, Kevin Walsh wrote: > > "What are you?" > > > > [Evil smile from Seraph player] "Let me show you...Oh, by the way, how > > much agg would True Faith at 10 do?" > > > Do Seraphs have to have True Faith? Wouldn't some of them just have Faith? I think that in WoD terms they would have the True Faith Merit as an automatic (probably all celestials would). Outcasts might not, though. I forgot the smiley, though. Rich Gant Malakim of Eli, in service to Michael ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 16:51:58 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: IN> Faith and Celestials On Tue, 13 Jan 1998, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > > I can't see most In Nomine Angels being True Faith either. Some of > > them doubt, after all. > > Do things change if you consider "faith" as "loyalty" rather than > "belief"? That is the other, and older, meaning of it, after all. I always thought faith was belief that motivated you to do something. The typical starting angel would have faith in God, Heaven, and his Archangel. Why? Because he believes in God to the point that he is willing to do what God wants, believes in Heaven enough to support the goals of Heaven, and in his Archangel enough to activly support the Archangel's Word. Angels do not lose this faith until they begin becoming dissonant (although arguing about whether loss of faith or gaining dissonance is first is rather like arguing about whether or not the egg came before the chicken). Dissonance can be considered a game mechanic to track an angel's loss of faith. The more the angel loses faith in God, Heaven, or his Archangel, the more he loses faith. The more he loses faith, the more likely he is to act against his own resonance in the symphony and the commands of his Archangel. And of course, the more he does this the more likely he is to gain dissonance and fall. Demonic faith is not quite faith in the same manner. It derives entirely from a belief in themselves and their own personal symphonies. A demon is a twisted version of an angel, after all. Their dissonance represents a loss of faith in themselves; the more dissonant a demon becomes, the less faith he has in his own personal symphony and the less able he is able to use his resonances. He doesn't have the faith he needs to utilize it. Rich Gant Malakim of Eli, in service to Michael ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 15:54:07 -0600 (CST) From: Bolie Williams IV Subject: Re: Re: Re: IN> In Nomine Jewelry There are different interpretations of the word "Faith" as used by Christians. Most think of the Faith in God and Jesus as opposed to knowing they exist. Many people feel that God keeps his existince in doubt so that believes can have True Faith without proof. Obviously, Angels *know* and don't have to have this kind of Faith. The other kind of Faith (which is what I gathered was the kind being talked about in the Bible) is the Faith in God's Love and that He will take care of you... This is the kind of Faith that Angels can have given God's withdrawal from direct meddling in their affairs. I would say that Angels should have something more than Humans as far as this kind of Faith but they should be able to run the gamut from strong Faith to Apostate, though I suspect that only Fallen would be true Apostates, since Faith is probably related to the Symphony. Bolie IV On Tue, 13 Jan 1998, Casca wrote: > On Tue, 13 Jan 1998, Kevin Walsh wrote: > > > I can't see most In Nomine Angels being True Faith either. Some of them > > doubt, after all. And an Elohite would have to be very careful about it. > > Interesting you say that, since the Archangel of Faith, Khalid, is an > Elohite. > > -- Casca, Seraph of Archives > (bertishg@db.erau.edu) > > "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of > His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: > with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their > feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the > doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." > -- Isaiah 6:2,4 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Bolie Williams IV bolie@io.com http://www.io.com/~bolie/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 17:25:15 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Disturbance (Re: IN> Losing your wings?) At 8:00 AM -0500 1/13/98, Brandon Quina wrote: >Anyways, that reminds me.. What kinda disturbance would Mitrah cause >if her little scheme to destroy the Catacombs goes through and she >DOES destroy her tether and cause a huge earthquake?? Are we back to the "Are there celestials on the moon?" questions again? [Still dealing with non-urgent email from the 400 messages from vacation] - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 17:45:57 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Malakite and dissonance At 12:29 PM +0000 1/13/98, Kevin Walsh wrote: >> >> That's also addressed in the APG, y'know... O;> >> >> >> >Given that the damn thing hasn't reached the shores of the Emerald Isle, >> >that is of absolutely no use to me. >> >> Emerald Isle? Urm? Where *is* that? > >An annoying, cutesy name for Ireland. Of course, it could be in other >parts of Ireland, but it's not in Dublin. Ah. Okay. I was thinking it was likely to be somewhere there, but didn't know the country-code. >> (And at least you know there *is* an answer about it, right?) >> >I don't see a pragmatic difference between an answer existing and being >written down somewhere I can't access it and that answer existing only in >Yves' copies of unwritten books. Mmmmm... One you can get eventually, though, one would hope? (I've forgotten precisely which thing covered in the APG was in here... Email me privately with a reminder, and I'll try to summerize a little...?) >> Vessels don't regenerate. They are created by Superiors (or by celestials >> in Limbo). But the Malakite can be waiting in line to beg his >> Archangel for a new vessel right after he finds himself a little >> light-headed next to his Heart. >> >Can I take it that the character points spent on a Vessel are like those >spent on a servant, that it's the type of Vessel the Superior assigns to >you by default? This is a GM call. Some GMs may require that new character points be spent to keep the player from getting his character's vessel toasted on a regular basis. Some GMs will "loan" the vessel and have the points paid back later. Some will make the vessel *better* as a reward, some will make it worse... Saying that the points spent are the "default" vessel level is certainly one simple way to deal with it. [Still dealing with non-urgent email from the 400 messages from vacation] - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 17:17:40 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Lilim of Eris At 12:19 PM +0000 1/13/98, Kevin Walsh wrote: >> >And things like Valefor's Lilim attunement. Do they have to specify the >> >kind of geas they want to inflict before making the Perception roll? >> >> No -- that's at the invoking stage. They subtract the level of the >> Geas *and* their Ethereal Forces from the victim's Will roll to >> resist doing as she asks. >> >That's what I hoped it meant, but it was a bit unclear. It will be clarified in the Infernal Players' Guide. [Still dealing with non-urgent email from the 400 messages from vacation] - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 17:39:27 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Celestial Tongue (was Re: IN> Malakite and dissonance) At 1:35 PM -0500 1/13/98, York H. Dobyns wrote: >Oh yeah, about that language that no one can lie in. I was a little >surprised that they didn't seem to make the distinction, since they were >so careful about it in describing the Seraph's truthreading resonance. >But: is it that the angelic language cannot frame statements that are >*false to fact*, or that it cannot be used to make statements *that the >speaker disbelieves*? I would rule the latter -- in angelic, you cannot say something that you believe to be false. (Assume there are words that mimick sarcasm, etc., for the benefit of the players.) I am not sure that using Singing to speak "pidgen-celestial" would have the same "no can lie" effect. That's probably a GM call. >I see possible headaches either way. In the former, >angels have a sure-fire method of identifying any demon: upon encountering >a suspect, go find a private place, spend 2 Essence to go Celestial, >and attempt to say "So-and-so is a demon" in the angelic tongue. >In the latter, Balseraphs can still lie in the angelic tongue, since >they hoodwink themselves into believing their own lies. Balseraphs are nasty. Sure, I'd let that happen, though *asking* one to do it that way would probably get a miffed Bal. And then there's Lucifer, who did all his talking in the tongue of angels. Helltongue hadn't even been invented yet. Habbalah are probably the most likely to keep using angelic -- and the things they say in it... [Still dealing with non-urgent email from the 400 messages from vacation] - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 17:44:00 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: White Wolf LARPS & Seraphim & Faith (Re: IN> In Nomine Jewelry) At 12:01 PM -0400 1/13/98, gantr@NKU.EDU wrote: >On Tue, 13 Jan 1998, Kirt A. Dankmyer -- aka Loki wrote: >> ObIN: I like the idea of wearing a Seraph pin to a White Wolf LARP -- it >> should confuse people. [...] >"What are you?" > >[Evil smile from Seraph player] "Let me show you...Oh, by the way, how >much agg would True Faith at 10 do?" That's twisted and obnoxious and evil. I *love* it. At 12:49 PM -0500 1/13/98, IQJason@aol.com wrote: >"Do Seraphs have to have True Faith? Wouldn't some of them just have Faith?" > >A local Storyteller is of the opinion that Angels, as embodiments of the >power of God, *are* True Faith. And if a Seraph doesn't have *TRUE* Faith, what *does* he have? At 3:29 PM -0500 1/13/98, Casca wrote: >On Tue, 13 Jan 1998, Kevin Walsh wrote: > >> I can't see most In Nomine Angels being True Faith either. Some of them >> doubt, after all. And an Elohite would have to be very careful about it. > >Interesting you say that, since the Archangel of Faith, Khalid, is an >Elohite. The reference to him being a Cherub, in the APG, is errata. *Bad* errata, no donut. At 8:53 PM +0000 1/13/98, Kevin Walsh wrote: >I said they'd have to be careful about it, not that it was impossible. > >But given that Faith is now logical, are there any modes of thought which >are dissonant for an Elohite if the player can come up with a good enough >justification for it? Very few, I'd say. The key, for Elohim, is that the reason they do something has to be an objective one. If they player makes a case that the Elohite is acting for the objective reasons... Elohim of the Wind cause very carefully considered mayhem. Elohim of Creation are very thoughtful lovers. Just about anything that serves the Elohite's Superior's Word will probably count as something they can do objectively, I'd think. This is why Elohim of the Sword don't take dissonance for following orders that they think are objectively a little questionable. [Still dealing with non-urgent email from the 400 messages from vacation] - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 17:36:13 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Infiltration (Re: IN> Of Vessels and Roles) At 12:34 PM +0000 1/13/98, Kevin Walsh wrote: >> >> Celestial Song of Form. *Much* easier than talking a Superior out >> of a spare vessel... O;> >> >Celestial Form only lasts minutes, though. It's really only practicable >for a very short period of time. True, though sometimes that's all it takes. >> > >> >There is a Song in Heaven & Hell that might cover that, I think. >> >Unfortunately, I don't *own* H&H yet, and can't remember the name. >> >It allows Celestials and Humans to mate, though... >> >> That's in the APG, and doing *that* is a good way to get bounced >> to the same status as the Grigori, if you're an angel... > >Can I take it that Pachadim do it the whole time? I think they should be >notified. Pachadim have two tricks: adoption, and the "succubus trick." (I think that one will make it into the IPG.) They have two vessels, and in the female one, they gather sperm, and then swap to male... Female Pachadim are barren unless Beleth's been being lenient. >>>It is an excellent way to get spies on the Other Side. Just kill a Soldier >>>of Lucifer (they deserve to die) then create an angel who looks and acts >>>just like him. Of course, the angel will surely Fall if he acts too good >>>but hey, that4s life! >> >>This is what Elohim are for. So long as they act only because the >>pose requires it.... Ruthless, manipulative. Will kill those on >>their own side if necessary. Cold, cold things. > >The great thing about the situation is, if they do Fall, they mightn't >realise that anything has changed, and continue working for you. Owch. At 12:39 PM +0000 1/13/98, Kevin Walsh wrote: >> >>>It is an excellent way to get spies on the Other Side. Just kill a >> Soldier of Lucifer (they deserve to die) then create an angel who looks and >> acts just like him. Of course, the angel will surely Fall if he acts too >> good but hey, that4s life!<<< >> >> >> Well, there are other ways to try that scam (like the Celestial Song of >> Form). But a supposed Soldier of Hell hanging around demons will have a >> hard time not being discovered as a celestial eventually. >> >There's a simple way to get around that. Don't learn any Songs. That way >you won't ever be tempted to use them. Put it all into skills instead. >That way the only thing they can get suspicious of is your incredible >shooting, tracking, fighting, dodging, driving, etc. And the fact that they make Symphonic noise when they break/kill things unless they managed to slip so smoothly in that they have a Role/6 as "Hellsworn." At 2:29 PM +0000 1/13/98, Hart, Joanna wrote: >(The other way to easily spot diabolicals if you are an angel is to take >them to a celestial tether and see if they can go in -- of course you'll >have blown the tether's location but this is probably less bad in the long >run). Demons can enter an angel-Tether *corporeally* -- but they can't do it celestially without suffering Bad Things (as the GM sees fit). >pps. Here's a plot hook. What if an archangel's voting sigil really did go >missing? We know Blandine regularly gives hers to one of her menunim to use >and that Eli & Janus rarely use theirs at all... Interesting... At 1:19 PM -0500 1/13/98, York H. Dobyns wrote: >emccoy@pop.nh.ultranet.com writes: > >>At 9:01 AM -0500 1/10/98, Matthias Mueller wrote: >There's a problem with this whole approach. A Soldier of the other side >is the *last* mortal a celestial can expect to be able to kill and >replace. They're sworn to Superiors, after all, and will show up in the >Superior's territory when they die. "What are you doing *here*? I just >got a report from , and she said everything proceeding according >to plan and they're counting on your team to plant the...uh-oh..." Um. Good point. Obviously this would have to be done as a kidnapping, instead of a kill. Oh, well... Maybe you can even get the Hellsworn to repent, while you're holding him incommunicado at your safehouse? [Still dealing with non-urgent email from the 400 messages from vacation] - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #563 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.