From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Jan 14 04:25:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA02387 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 04:25:21 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id EAA16712 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 04:25:49 -0600 Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 04:25:49 -0600 Message-Id: <199801141025.EAA16712@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #564 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, January 14 1998 Volume 01 : Number 564 In this digest: Star Trek IN (Re: IN> Malakim Humor) Re: Re: Re: IN> In Nomine Jewelry (or Faith, if you will...) Re: Disturbance (Re: IN> Losing your wings?) Re: Disturbance (Re: IN> Losing your wings?) IN> Rule Call... Re: Disturbance (Re: IN> Losing your wings?) IN> Faith & Celestials IN> Of Vessels and Roles... IN> Malakim Vows RE: IN> Faith & Celestials Re: Disturbance (Re: IN> Losing your wings?) Re: IN> Who are you, anyway? Re: White Wolf LARPS & Seraphim & Faith (Re: IN> In Nomine Jewelry) Re: IN> Questions, apparently not frequently asked Re: IN> Rule Call... Re: White Wolf LARPS & Seraphim & Faith (Re: IN> In Nomine Jewelry) IN> Celestial Tongue Re: IN> Who are you, anyway? IN> Impudites and Dissonance IN> Who is Redneck? (Was Re: IN> Who are you, anyway?) Re: Infiltration (Re: IN> Of Vessels and Roles) Re: IN> Celestial Tongue (was Re: IN> Malakite and dissonance) Re: White Wolf LARPS & Seraphim & Faith (Re: IN> In Nomine Jewelry) Re: IN> Faith and Celestials Re: IN> Who are you, anyway? Re: Re: Re: IN> In Nomine Jewelry Re: IN> Malakite and dissonance Re: Infiltration (Re: IN> Of Vessels and Roles) Re: IN> Faith and Celestials Re: IN> Of Vessels and Roles... Re: IN> Impudites and Dissonance Re: IN> Impudites and Dissonance Re: IN> Faith and Celestials ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 18:04:22 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Star Trek IN (Re: IN> Malakim Humor) At 12:11 PM +0000 1/13/98, Kevin Walsh wrote: >> >> Bite me - I was thinking beyond the immediate stereotype. >> It would actively make a lot of sense. >> >> Now - who was his Superior? >> >I would have thought Jean, but I've never seen him conjure a >microcomputer into his hand. He's under orders not to, gotta be. (Either that, or he's conjuring them in his head...) >> Scotty - Cherub of Technology, attuned to the ship (esp the warp >> core and transporters). Senschal of the Starship Enterprise. I'd >> say that Geordi was another vessel of his, but Jordi just ain't as >> cool... >> >Methinks all chief engineers are cherubs of technology, somehow. Cherub. Technology? Um. Lightning, maybe? Otherwise, one starts to wonder about Vaps... >> Luxana Troy (Diana's mother) - Impudite of Lust. >> >Lust, most certainly. Impudite, I have my doubts about. Don't forget her >empathic abilities. Very confused Habbie? [Still dealing with non-urgent email from the 400 messages from vacation] - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 18:10:14 EST From: MarkDEddy Subject: Re: Re: Re: IN> In Nomine Jewelry (or Faith, if you will...) In a message dated 1/13/98 1:02:24 PM, hjalkar@RedBrick.DCU.IE writes: >But given that Faith is now logical, are there any modes of thought which > >are dissonant for an Elohite if the player can come up with a good enough > >justification for it? Faith, in In Nomine is not an emotional response. It is a logical, reasoned approach in response to an angel's unceasing awareness of the presence of God. The Word of Faith, the way I read it, is a logical attempt to get humanity to comprehend the presence of God in the Universe (not just the celestial realms). Faith is no more an emotion than Judgment is. Faith is a series of actions reflecting a belief. Mark("...and there remain these three, Faith, Hope, and Love..." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 18:53:17 -0500 From: Brandon Quina Subject: Re: Disturbance (Re: IN> Losing your wings?) > Are we back to the "Are there celestials on the moon?" questions > again? Point taken, but I was thinking.... Would there be any other 'bad effects' of hearing so loud an echo. Sort of like being on the runway when a jet takes off without headphones, if you know what I mean??? - -- (lore@tmgbbs.com) \\/// Brandon Lance Quina (x x) ICQ Number: 6809944 ---ooO(_)Ooo--- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 19:23:09 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: Disturbance (Re: IN> Losing your wings?) At 6:53 PM -0500 1/13/98, Brandon Quina wrote: >holocaust cause?' question> > >> Are we back to the "Are there celestials on the moon?" questions >> again? > > Point taken, but I was thinking.... > >Would there be any other 'bad effects' of hearing so loud an echo. >Sort of like being on the runway when a jet takes off without >headphones, if you know what I mean??? Entirely and utterly up to the GM. I think the standard answer would probably be, "It's noisy and annoying but you can still think through it." But I could easily see a GM deciding that something *that* loud should cause a few rounds of stunning, sort of like Thunder does. [Still dealing with non-urgent email from the 400 messages from vacation] - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 98 19:52:24 PST From: "bruce dykes" Subject: IN> Rule Call... What's the highest level of a Role that doesn't have an associated vessel? I was reading the Kyriotate chapter in the APG, and it mentioned that some Kyrios may have roles that could be performed anonymously. I then started thinking of roles that could be used by a kyrio...Charlie from "Charlie's Angels", Fletch, master of disguise (they aren't disguises, they're actually different hosts!), or Laura Holt's Remington Steele, before somebody walked into the role... So, what's the highest level a role can have without an associated vessel? I would say 4...but is there an official ruling... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 18:52:17 +0000 From: "Patrick Chester" Subject: Re: Disturbance (Re: IN> Losing your wings?) > At 6:53 PM -0500 1/13/98, Brandon Quina wrote: > > >holocaust cause?' question> > > > >> Are we back to the "Are there celestials on the moon?" questions > >> again? > > > > Point taken, but I was thinking.... > > > >Would there be any other 'bad effects' of hearing so loud an echo. > >Sort of like being on the runway when a jet takes off without > >headphones, if you know what I mean??? > > Entirely and utterly up to the GM. I think the standard answer > would probably be, "It's noisy and annoying but you can still > think through it." > > But I could easily see a GM deciding that something *that* loud > should cause a few rounds of stunning, sort of like Thunder does. A sort of an "as if millions of people had cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced" type of disturbance? :-) Patrick Chester (aka: claypigeon, Sinapus) wolfone@io.com "Well Jim, that proves it. The Universe not made up of an endless vacuum of eternal nothingness like we once believed. The Universe is in fact made up of Fabio." -Cape Carbunkle bunch at work. :-) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 20:10:54 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Faith & Celestials >>>The reference to him being a Cherub, in the APG, is errata. *Bad* errata, no donut. <<< No, Khalid is correctly listed as an Elohite. It's Raphael who was errata'd. (And that's not my fault, they changed that on me *after* the book had already gone to the printer!) - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 20:10:58 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Of Vessels and Roles... >>>There's a simple way to get around that. Don't learn any Songs. That way you won't ever be tempted to use them. Put it all into skills instead. That way the only thing they can get suspicious of is your incredible shooting, tracking, fighting, dodging, driving, etc.<<< And the fact that if you ever get hit by a celestial, it doesn't cause a disturbance, while if you hit a human, it does... - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 20:10:56 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Malakim Vows >>>I imagine it would really depend on the oath. For example, if a demonic plot is uncovered to assassinate the pope within the next 72 hours, then the oath "I shall vigilantly stand guard for the next 4 days" is a perfectly honorable vow. "I shall hunt this foe for a week is weasily, as a malakim's honor would be tainted by giving up the chase.<<< True Malakim vows are permanent, though. A Malakite could swear to do something on a temporary basis, and he might take that promise as seriously as he takes all his other oaths. But unless he has a *true* oath like "Always keep my word," I would not impose dissonance if he ends up breaking his "temporary oath". And I most certainly would not allow him to LOSE dissonance (as described in the APG) by taking new oaths of limited duration. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 17:21:13 -0800 From: "Steven Feldon (Exchange)" Subject: RE: IN> Faith & Celestials >>>The reference to him being a Cherub, in the APG, is errata. *Bad* errata, no donut. <<< No, Khalid is correctly listed as an Elohite. It's Raphael who was errata'd. (And that's not my fault, they changed that on me *after* the book had already gone to the printer!) I'm sorry, but as a seeker of information about things like there, I'm curious. Raphael's listed as a Cherub in the APG-where is he listed as otherwise? steve ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 12:52:54 +1100 From: christopher.stevenson@aihw.gov.au (Chris Stevenson) Subject: Re: Disturbance (Re: IN> Losing your wings?) >> At 6:53 PM -0500 1/13/98, Brandon Quina wrote: >> >> >holocaust cause?' question> >> > >> >> Are we back to the "Are there celestials on the moon?" questions >> >> again? >> > >> > Point taken, but I was thinking.... >> > >> >Would there be any other 'bad effects' of hearing so loud an echo. >> >Sort of like being on the runway when a jet takes off without >> >headphones, if you know what I mean??? >> >> Entirely and utterly up to the GM. I think the standard answer >> would probably be, "It's noisy and annoying but you can still >> think through it." >> >> But I could easily see a GM deciding that something *that* loud >> should cause a few rounds of stunning, sort of like Thunder does. > >A sort of an "as if millions of people had cried out in terror and >were suddenly silenced" type of disturbance? :-) I wonder if such things might cause lasting trauma or ennui? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 22:41:36 EST From: "Perry M. Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Who are you, anyway? > > Question Everybody.. If you were a non-mundane thing in > > the In Nomine universe, what would you be?? > Demon of Confabulation Balseraph of Fate, with an Ofanim's Resonance - -or- Angel of Selective Memory Ofanim of Destiny [Depending which side drew my card, of course :) ] - -Perry Perry M. Lloyd "The humans do not start from that direct perception of Him which we, unhappily, cannot avoid. They have never known that ghastly luminosity, that stabbing and searing glare which makes background of permanent pain to our lives." -Screwtape (From "The Screwtape Letters", by C.S. Lewis) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 22:45:16 -0400 (EDT) From: gibsonc@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: White Wolf LARPS & Seraphim & Faith (Re: IN> In Nomine Jewelry) isn't faith beleif without knowledge? if so, then angels don't have faith that God is real, they truly know it. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 23:04:34 EST From: "Perry M. Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Questions, apparently not frequently asked >>3.) Why does it cost more, during character design (and, by implication, >>when spending points to improve a character in the course of play) to own >>a Talisman that grants you a skill, or a Relic that grants you a Song, >>than it costs simply to know the skill or Song yourself? > >And a Talisman can boost your skill above 6. Which is a very scary >thing. Here's a Horror: Strength 12, Large Weapon/6, Talisman/6 (big sword w/ Large Weapon/6) Let's see, with Autosuccess, that sword does its normal Power +4 plus 12!? Hell yeah! Now THAT'S a Celestial not to piss off, that's all I have to say... [Total Power +16, baby... "Let's go."] - -Perry Perry M. Lloyd "The humans do not start from that direct perception of Him which we, unhappily, cannot avoid. They have never known that ghastly luminosity, that stabbing and searing glare which makes background of permanent pain to our lives." -Screwtape (From "The Screwtape Letters", by C.S. Lewis) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 20:13:46 -0800 (PST) From: Querent Subject: Re: IN> Rule Call... A role is linked to a human vessel. (p.43). It is the *reality* of the vessel. If there's no vessel, but there is a persona, then the role is 0 (it's blatantly not real) but it's influence could still be great. - ---bruce dykes wrote: > So, what's the highest level a role can have without an associated vessel? > I would say 4...but is there an official ruling... > == --Querent USELESS FACT: The shape gamers call a "twenty sider" is an "icosahedron" to mathematicians. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 23:15:02 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: White Wolf LARPS & Seraphim & Faith (Re: IN> In Nomine Jewelry) On Tue, 13 Jan 1998 gibsonc@NKU.EDU wrote: > isn't faith beleif without knowledge? if so, then angels don't have faith > that God is real, they truly know it. "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Hebrews 11:1 This can also be read "Now faith is the assurance/basis/foundation of things hoped for, the proof of things not seen." It's not necessarially a belief in something you can't prove exists (although that is one definition); it can also be interpreted as the assurance that something you can't see is real, or the foundation of that belief. I think it also implies that what you have faith in is true (although some may argue that as well). It is an interesting point that angels may not have faith, since they _know_ God exists. I think they still need faith though (at least in In Nomine). After all, the last time God was positivly known to have done something in Heaven was when he recalled Uriel. They may know a little better that God is real, but they may not be sure that they are on the right side or that they are going to win. That still requires faith. Rich Gant Malakim of Eli, in service to Michael PS: Gibson, are you currently involved in a game? I run one here on campus on Sunday nights, if you are interested. (The same offer is open to anyone in the Northern Kentucky University area. Just e-mail me.) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 98 23:26:04 -0500 From: David Wood Subject: IN> Celestial Tongue Quoth a bunch o' people on 1/13/98 6:02 PM... >From: "York H. Dobyns" > >Pee Kitty writes: > >>If the Balseraph is smart, he will simply make the Malakim speak the >>angelic tongue (either by going Celestial, using Singing skill, or if he >>has that one distinction of Michael or Laurence--forget which), since it >>cannot express a falsehood. > >Oh yeah, about that language that no one can lie in. I was a little >surprised that they didn't seem to make the distinction, since they were >so careful about it in describing the Seraph's truthreading resonance. >But: is it that the angelic language cannot frame statements that are >*false to fact*, or that it cannot be used to make statements *that the >speaker disbelieves*? To answer this, I'd like to bring up something from an old and short-lived GURPS Space campaign I was involved with once. For my character, I had created a race which had scripted a "truth-telling language," and strict guidelines how first contact was to be initiated with alien cultures (like humans). BTW, I have the most amazing coincidence to report... Here's a description of the character, and race, in question, and I quote: "he looks more than anything else like a large Bortzoi with light chestnut brown hair and six eyes (three rows of varying size pairs)." This was before I had ever seen any of the In Nomine materials, so this is of course a remarkable coincidence and nothing but. *Trust* me... As for the language itself -- and that's the reason for this post, anyway - -- it was organic and was heavily "smeared" with the emotions and body language to the speaker. Now, "smear" is a fancy word I picked up from another mailing list to represent how meanings, tenses, numbers, agreements, and so forth are scattered throughout any given use of a language. (The simplest demonstration of "smear" is in subject-verb agreement: "she sell" doesn't make any sense; correct phrases would be either "she sells" or "they sell.") In other words, it could be possible to lie, if you could combine the correct subject-verb agreement with the correct intonation and the correct head movement and the correct breathing... It was a Very Hard skill to learn, and using it provided a -4 on any attempts to lie, or a +4 on any attempts to be spotted. Anyone attempting to lie, it was determined, would end up mixing different body languages in such a way as to underline whatever lie or false emotion was contained within a given statement. I also declared that the mental health profession benefitted significantly from the use of such a language because any aberrant emotional condition would be reflected in the use of the language. I bring up all this because I see the Angelic Tongue to be a souped-up version of this. > I see possible headaches either way. Truth is a double-edged sword. An ultimately fair GM would not allow himself to benefit from any trick he rules the players couldn't use. > In the former, >angels have a sure-fire method of identifying any demon: upon encountering >a suspect, go find a private place, spend 2 Essence to go Celestial, >and attempt to say "So-and-so is a demon" in the angelic tongue. It may be true, it may not be. There is a doubt, and that doubt will be reflected in whatever it is the angel actually says. Likewise, there is a lazy intent to find out in a very easy (almost cheating) way what things really are like. A reaction roll from the universe might be appropriate at this point to see how badly the doubt and intent mangles what he said. On a favorable roll, it may merely come out "I believe so-and-so is a demon." On a really unfavorable roll, it might come out as "I assert that so-and-so is a demon and demand that God confirm this." In that case, even a 111 could be bad... >:) >In the latter, Balseraphs can still lie in the angelic tongue, since >they hoodwink themselves into believing their own lies. In that case, they would meet all criteria, and whatever "truth" they told would be "smeared" with the "truth" of their skewed emotions. They could indeed get away with it. And they are the only demons who could. On that *one* occasion. The next time, though, they convince themselves that the next lie they want to tell is the new absolute truth, and tell it. If it's at all related to the previous "truth" they told, they are far, far more likely to contradict themselves and collect Dissonance, not to mention a bunch of new enemies -- since there is only one kind of celestial being who could do that with the Angelic Tongue, he's pretty much tipped his hand. It still allows for the Balseraph who can cause untold mischief with one lie, or whomever eliminates all chance of his contradicting himself by eliminating the people that heard the first lie. But how likely is *that* to happen on a regular basis? - -David http://www.bluecrab.org/members/dwood/ My Own Private Blasphemy: the in-house In Nomine Campaign Page http://www.bluecrab.org/members/dwood/tabletop/innomine/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 98 22:29:41 PST From: "Chris Jackson" Subject: Re: IN> Who are you, anyway? - ---------- > > > > Question Everybody.. If you were a non-mundane thing in > > > the In Nomine universe, what would you be?? Today? A 4-force reliever preparing a high level Role so that someone else can move in and muck it up. It's been that kind of day. Christopher B. Jackson (Still not the Archangel Christopher, despite spending the better part of the day babysitting my lovely nieces. In fact, that proves it.) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 22:43:27 -0600 From: Derek Aaron Wells Subject: IN> Impudites and Dissonance Here's one... How far do you think an Impudite would go to avoid the dissonance of killing a human? I've got a PC who has just 'accidentally' shot two humans (please don't ask), potentially fatally. Now he's freaking out because of the possibility of dissonance and starting to act a lot like a Cherubim who just happens to be attuned to *all* humans. I know that their reasons are greatly different, but it seems that in an attempt to stave of the dissonance of their Band, they end up looking a lot like their former Choir. aaron ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 22:45:37 -0600 (CST) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: IN> Who is Redneck? (Was Re: IN> Who are you, anyway?) Well, since this thread refuses to die, I guess I'll admit it. If I had any idea who or what I'd be in IN, I'd have posted by now. Anybody wants to offer a suggestion, that's fine by me. Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | "It's Christmas in Heaven, http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | there's great shows on TV; c/o White Lightning Productions | the Sound of Music twice an hour http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | and Jaws I, II and III." Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- A Nybbas Christmas http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 22:51:59 +0000 From: tom timberlake Subject: Re: Infiltration (Re: IN> Of Vessels and Roles) > > At 1:19 PM -0500 1/13/98, York H. Dobyns wrote: > >emccoy@pop.nh.ultranet.com writes: > > > >>At 9:01 AM -0500 1/10/98, Matthias Mueller wrote: > > >There's a problem with this whole approach. A Soldier of the other side > >is the *last* mortal a celestial can expect to be able to kill and > >replace. They're sworn to Superiors, after all, and will show up in the > >Superior's territory when they die. "What are you doing *here*? I just > >got a report from , and she said everything proceeding according > >to plan and they're counting on your team to plant the...uh-oh..." > > Um. Good point. Obviously this would have to be done as a kidnapping, > instead of a kill. Oh, well... Maybe you can even get the Hellsworn > to repent, while you're holding him incommunicado at your safehouse? > > [Still dealing with non-urgent email from the 400 messages from vacation] > --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor > GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ Is there anyone besides me who is now thinking of Elric's [soul-stealing? soul-eating?] sword, Stormbringer? It would be a _very_ Major Relic, very expensive, in terms of point-cost [hefty damage, enough to kill most all mortals, and the ability to Force-strip all Celestial Forces a being struck has, and do soul-hits equal to the number of soul-hits a being has] and would likely only be a loaner from a Superior, used only for infiltration missions. Please note, only Heaven will use such a weapon, since trust in an underling not to turn the blade against their Superiour only exists in Heaven--No Way is Asmodeus [or even Kobal] going to trust an underling with such a weapon. tom t., sometimes role of James the Stone Malak, Heaven's Quai Chang Cain--"I am James; I will help you." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 05:13:53 +0000 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: IN> Celestial Tongue (was Re: IN> Malakite and dissonance) At 17:39 13/01/98 -0500, you wrote: >At 1:35 PM -0500 1/13/98, York H. Dobyns wrote: > >>In the latter, Balseraphs can still lie in the angelic tongue, since >>they hoodwink themselves into believing their own lies. > > Balseraphs are nasty. Sure, I'd let that happen, >though *asking* one to do it that way would probably get a >miffed Bal. > I'd be inclined to knock one off the checkdigit automatically if it was using angelic, and if it fails its roll it is likely to be in interesting trouble. ('*pause* I don't know what the truth IS anymore...') jo ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 00:57:18 -0500 (EST) From: Casca Subject: Re: White Wolf LARPS & Seraphim & Faith (Re: IN> In Nomine Jewelry) On Tue, 13 Jan 1998 gibsonc@NKU.EDU wrote: > isn't faith beleif without knowledge? if so, then angels don't have faith > that God is real, they truly know it. I don't know about that...when was the last time an average angel saw God? He's pretty much withdrawn from the universe, leaving things to be run by the Archs. Oh, sure, Yves knows, but he's not telling. According to published canon, the last time God did soemthing was during Uriel's trial. Personally, I'm beginning to think that God is another case of Dread Pirate Roberts syndrome.... - -- Casca, Seraph of Archives (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 00:51:26 -0500 From: Ni Ke Hsin Subject: Re: IN> Faith and Celestials > >I always thought faith was belief that motivated you to do something. The >typical starting angel would have faith in God, Heaven, and his Archangel. In Christian Theology faith is usually identified with either Trust in the promises of the Scriptures or in belief with either lacks or defies rational proof. Interpretions vary. In non-Christian theology, Faith isn't much an issue (with the exception of Amida Buddhism); it is obedience that is called for. Angels would be capable of Faith interpreted as trust, because they know better than anyone that God keeps His word. They wouldn't be capable of faith interpreted as belief without proof: after you've seen Heaven, doubting God is rather difficult. Ni Ke Hsin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 01:04:50 -0500 From: Ni Ke Hsin Subject: Re: IN> Who are you, anyway? At 10:41 PM -0500 1/13/98, Perry M. Lloyd wrote: >> > Question Everybody.. If you were a non-mundane thing in >> > the In Nomine universe, what would you be?? Angel of Fresh-Roasted Coffee Mercurian in the service of Novalis Ni Ke Hsin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 02:05:17 -0500 From: Ni Ke Hsin Subject: Re: Re: Re: IN> In Nomine Jewelry >I think that honour might well be illogical if you think about it for long >enough (pragmatic and honorable don't really seem to go together to me -- I >s'pose Laurence must have Elohim.. or maybe not). Also good taste isn't >logical ;-) I'm not sure that pragmatism is a good measure of logic. Ask a logician what the practical use of her art is, and she'll get pretty testy, often enough. In addition, the question of "practical for what" needs attention. If a Malakite isn't honourable, she can't acheive her goals. Not being honourable is impractical. I'd further argue that good taste is more logical than bad taste. ;-) Ni Ke Hsin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 09:28:05 +0000 (GMT) From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Malakite and dissonance > > > >An annoying, cutesy name for Ireland. Of course, it could be in other > >parts of Ireland, but it's not in Dublin. > > Ah. Okay. I was thinking it was likely to be somewhere there, but > didn't know the country-code. > Actually, I discovered yesterday that it had been in Dublin ( I presume it was bought in Dublin anyway) for a couple of days before being sold out. Given the speed with which both the places which sell rpgs in Dublin get new stock, I confidently expect it to be in tomorrow, or maybe next year, or not at all. > > (I've forgotten precisely which thing covered in the APG was in > here... Email me privately with a reminder, and I'll try to > summerize a little...?) > So have I, and I've been deleting most of the stuff I get on the mailing list because I'm intimidated by the prospect of having more than 500 messages in my old-folder. > > This is a GM call. Some GMs may require that new character points > be spent to keep the player from getting his character's vessel > toasted on a regular basis. Some GMs will "loan" the vessel and > have the points paid back later. Some will make the vessel *better* > as a reward, some will make it worse... > > Saying that the points spent are the "default" vessel level is > certainly one simple way to deal with it. > Ah...relying on the GM's generosity. Loads of fun. Thanks for clarifying it, though. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 09:36:48 +0000 (GMT) From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: Infiltration (Re: IN> Of Vessels and Roles) > > > > Um. Good point. Obviously this would have to be done as a kidnapping, > > instead of a kill. Oh, well... Maybe you can even get the Hellsworn > > to repent, while you're holding him incommunicado at your safehouse? > > > Is there anyone besides me who is now thinking of Elric's > [soul-stealing? soul-eating?] sword, Stormbringer? No, but I'm now remembering the IC: Wolves' Glen Pub thread on rgfs, which was briefly known as the "Sign of the Six Soul-Sucking Swords". It would be a _very_ > Major Relic, very expensive, in terms of point-cost [hefty damage, > enough to kill most all mortals, and the ability to Force-strip all > Celestial Forces a being struck has, and do soul-hits equal to the > number of soul-hits a being has] and would likely only be a loaner from > a Superior, used only for infiltration missions. Ah now, I'd be prepared to spend 10 character points on something like that. Not. I'm proud of the fact that only one of my characters has artifacts of any description, though that'll change when I start making Servitors of the Sword, I suppose. Please note, only > Heaven will use such a weapon, since trust in an underling not to turn > the blade against their Superiour only exists in Heaven--No Way is > Asmodeus [or even Kobal] going to trust an underling with such a weapon. > Personally, if I were Laurence, I wouldn't lend out the personal weapon which Eli himself made for me to anyone. Nor would I use it except on the Last Day, on the grounds that it's just inviting Baal to use his Soul-sucking sword in response. There's such a thing as mutually assured destruction, and the Superiors are well aware of it. Anyway, the simpler way to soul-kill someone is to do it in the Marches. Admittedly, it makes a disturbance, but not likely as much of one as that thing. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 10:40:35 +0100 From: d.ranzato@bpa.vnu.com Subject: Re: IN> Faith and Celestials In Christian Theology faith is usually identified with either Trust in the promises of the Scriptures or in belief with either lacks or defies rational proof. Interpretions vary. In non-Christian theology, Faith isn't much an issue (with the exception of Amida Buddhism); it is obedience that is called for. Angels would be capable of Faith interpreted as trust, because they know better than anyone that God keeps His word. They wouldn't be capable of faith interpreted as belief without proof: after you've seen Heaven, doubting God is rather difficult. But why has Faith such a profound effect on vampires? I always thougt that they could not stand the Goodness of God and the human belief in such. Angels are the embodiment of the Goodness of God and would probably destroy a vampire just by touching it. But I am no V:TM player and do not know if this is the case in that game. But this is an In Nomine Mailing List and therefore it´s not that important. Donato Ranzato Marketing brain behind the In Nomine(tm) Action Figure Toyline. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 09:42:27 +0000 (GMT) From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Of Vessels and Roles... > >>>There's a simple way to get around that. Don't learn any Songs. That way > you won't ever be tempted to use them. Put it all into skills instead. > That way the only thing they can get suspicious of is your incredible > shooting, tracking, fighting, dodging, driving, etc.<<< > > > And the fact that if you ever get hit by a celestial, it doesn't cause a > disturbance, while if you hit a human, it does... > And the fact that if you ever spend Essence to push a roll, everyone present will know you're an angle, due to the mandatory otherworldly effect. (Presumably Habbies don't take advantage of this, or maybe they regard it as evidence of preparedness on God's part.) I can't remember a single incident in any game I played in which anyone remembered that rule. Is this a general thing? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 02:40:51 -0700 From: Chris Piekarski Subject: Re: IN> Impudites and Dissonance Derek Aaron Wells wrote: > > Here's one... > > How far do you think an Impudite would go to avoid the dissonance of > killing a human? Impudites obviously don't want to gain dissonance, or see a human die(Even Impudites of Saminga), so they'd go pretty far out of their way...that is, if they had a choice between having an Essence feast or being the difference between life and death for a human, they'd go with the human. > I've got a PC who has just 'accidentally' shot two humans (please don't > ask), potentially fatally. Now he's freaking out because of the > possibility of dissonance and starting to act a lot like a Cherubim who > just happens to be attuned to *all* humans. Quote from the good book(IN rulebook): "Personally killing a human-through action or inaction-causes dissonance in Impudites." For each that dies, your Imp has gotta make a dissonance roll...no matter what. You can try to save them if you want, but unless you're a doctor, you might have a hard time. > I know that their reasons are greatly different, but it seems that in an > attempt to stave of the dissonance of their Band, they end up looking a > lot like their former Choir. Not really...maybe only for the Balseraph. Your Impudite isn't acting like a Mercurian right now, he's acting like a Cherubim. - -- --¥-Chris-¥-- Webmaster of -Anime News and Reviews- GodGundam@humanoid.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 09:51:19 +0000 (GMT) From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Impudites and Dissonance > Here's one... > > How far do you think an Impudite would go to avoid the dissonance of > killing a human? > > I've got a PC who has just 'accidentally' shot two humans (please don't > ask), potentially fatally. Nope. I have to ask. Now he's freaking out because of the > possibility of dissonance and starting to act a lot like a Cherubim who > just happens to be attuned to *all* humans. > Hehehe. > I know that their reasons are greatly different, but it seems that in an > attempt to stave of the dissonance of their Band, they end up looking a > lot like their former Choir. > Actually, Mercurians don't necessarily have to worry about other people killing humans, etc. Impudites do, They can't let people die as a result of their inaction, unless they serve Baal or Saminga. (That's my reading of the rules, anyway.) Why? Because they can't bear the thought of their precious Essence resources being reduced. Hurting is fine, though, and indeed encouraged by many Superiors. Mercurians can't hurt humans, or angels, or animals, or ethereal spirits, unless their Superior modifies their dissonance. But if other people want to do that, the Mercurian doesn't have to stop them. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 10:16:15 +0000 (GMT) From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Faith and Celestials > > But why has Faith such a profound effect on vampires? You're asking why things have a profound effect on vampires in the World of Darkness? You poor misguided person. I always thougt that > they could not stand the Goodness of God and the human belief in such. The problem with the first part of the thesis is that there is no reliable evidence to indicate that Yahweh in the WOD (I presume he exists somewhere in the High Umbra) is in any way different from any of the other "Ethereal Spirits" except in degree of power. Certainly, Yahweh is not an entity on the scale of Gaia, let alone the Triat. There isn't much reliable evidence for the proposition that God is good either, but that's another story. Secondly, you can have True Faith in Odin, or Set, or almost anything except the Astral demons. And this True Faith is just as nasty to Vampires as True Faith in Yahweh. True Faith may be a gift from those entities, or it may be an imposition of the Faithful person's Will on the world, a lesser form of magic. It's essentially impossible to tell. (It should be noted here that Ascension's Right Hand implies that spirit entities should not be allowed to have Numina, which includes True Faith. Certainly, I reckon that the party line is that True Faith is a form of magic.) Now to make this somewhat relevant to the In Nomine universe, it should be noted that the imposition of Will on the Universe in order to change it is a Selfish act, and that if the latter explanation for True Faith is correct, True Faith must have a _Demonic_ source, like Sorcery does. It can be argued that it is a counterproductive act on the part of demonkind to create such a thing, but again, Sorcery can be held up as an example. Clearly, Sorcery in itself allows humans to mess with a demon's plans in a fashion dangerous to Hell. But it has been found that, in practice, its result is to corrupt its possessors. True Faith corrupts its wielders more subtly, giving them the arrogant belief that they have the right to decide what lives and what dies. Remember that it's estimated that the Inquisition kills several times more humans than Vampires in the WOD. And they have no Word of Purity to protect them from the consequences of this. And Hell is certainly subtle enough to do this, remember the Habbalah, after all. The only person who suffers remotely from it is Saminga, and the consequences of people with True Faith resound to his benefit too. (Alternatively, True Faith is a creation of Uriel, and even when they die, the angelic side is still stuck with them.) > Angels are the embodiment of the Goodness of God We'll grant this for a moment. and would probably destroy > a vampire just by touching it. But I am no V:TM player and do not know if > this is the case in that game. But this is an In Nomine Mailing List and > therefore it4s not that important. > Indeed. I would like to note once again that I am making a distinction between faith and True Faith. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #564 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.