From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Jan 20 09:30:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA18408 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 09:30:46 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id JAA11713 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 09:20:50 -0600 Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 09:20:50 -0600 Message-Id: <199801201520.JAA11713@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #577 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, January 20 1998 Volume 01 : Number 577 In this digest: Djinn (Re: IN> Remnants) Re: IN> Sophia, Angel of Wisdom Re: IN> Old Testament or New Testament Re: IN> Old Testament or New Testament Re: IN> Old Testament or New Testament Re: IN> TNATC Movie Trailer (at last!) Re: IN> Archangel Canon Fodder Re: IN> Last Night's Quotes Re: IN> Old Testament or New Testament Re: IN> Last Night's Quotes Re: IN> Sophia, Angel of Wisdom Re: IN> Raphael Re: IN>Heavenly Judgement attunement Re: IN> Definitions, please Re: IN> Last Night's Quotes Re: IN> Last Night's Quotes Re: IN> Sophia, Angel of Wisdom Re: IN> Old Testament or New Testament Re: IN>Heavenly Judgement attunement Re: IN> In Nomine, sideways Re: IN> Old Testament or New Testament Re: IN>Heavenly Judgement attunement IN> Son of Interventions Re: IN> Campaign Seed - A Definite Lack of Faith [VERY long] Re: IN> Definitions, please Re: IN> Campaign Seed - A Definite Lack of Faith [VERY long] Re: IN> New Resource - Kyrio/Shed Possessing Forces Re: IN> Christianity in In Nomine. IN>Flowers IN> Fair Exchange -- act 3 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 01:18:50 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Djinn (Re: IN> Remnants) At 12:12 PM +0000 1/16/98, Kevin Walsh wrote: >> >> >> >Except that that would be silly. The roll is based on Perception, after all. >> >> With Djinn, it's based on Will. Thus the concept of "forcing" a >> link, an artificial "theme" in the Symphony that they use to >> track. (Which is why it tends to not last very long -- the True >> Symphony washes it away.) >> >> Or at least that's how I justify the Djinn resonance being based >> on Will, while the Cherub one is Perception. > >Is it? Since it didn't say specifically in the description of the Djinn >resonance under the Djinn, I assumed that the mechanics of establishing >the link were the same as for Cherubim. Check p. 56. "To invoke a resonance, a celestial must make a d666 roll equal to his Perception (for angels and Lilim) or Will (for other demons), *minus his current dissonance*, with other modifiers for difficulty as the GM sees fit." This has since been modified to account for the Kyrio resonance being Will-based (I think it says as much) as well, and Habbies can use a pale shadow of the Elohite emotion-sensing stuff with a Perception roll. (More detail in the IPG.) >Certainly, any information gained >by Djinn about the attuned person/object is gained by making Perception >rolls. The only reference to Will is with regard to removing the attunement. As with some of the stuff for Habbies, I'd be *real* tempted to say that Djinn can pick up the location stuff, but not the "general state" information. >> >(An image enters my head of Kyriotates simply perceiving the theme in the >> >Symphony of the unfortunate bastard they're kicking out of his/her body.) >> >> Kyrios are another resonance based on Will... >> >That's what I was saying. I assumed that the Djinn resonance was based on >Perception. Obviously, if the Djinn resonance is based on Will, it will >have consequences for the special things they can do with their >Resonance, when they're detailed in the IPG. If I weren't sick, I'd go look at what the drafts said. [running a fever after 3 days on panels at a SF Con...] - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 01:58:13 EST From: Heretic103 Subject: Re: IN> Sophia, Angel of Wisdom In a message dated 98-01-18 22:31:52 EST, you write: << Sophia is one of the very oldest of the Seraphim: she was created before even Dominic and the younger archangels >> I find a problem with this because 1 without man there really wasn't love and 2 I think personally there should be only the demon of love but that is my own twisted view of the whole thing ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 02:01:54 EST From: Heretic103 Subject: Re: IN> Old Testament or New Testament In a message dated 98-01-18 23:12:45 EST, you write: << In the IN universe, who was Jesus? >> This is the question I directly propose that we ask as GM's to our hapless players. I think this is a rich source of plot that S.J. ignored and that leaves it up to us to go there with an extermly vast source of imagination ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 02:05:02 EST From: Heretic103 Subject: Re: IN> Old Testament or New Testament In a message dated 98-01-18 23:45:40 EST, you write: << "Always look on the bright side of life..." >> Oh no! it is the arab suicide brigade! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 02:03:52 EST From: Heretic103 Subject: Re: IN> Old Testament or New Testament In a message dated 98-01-18 23:12:45 EST, you write: << Was he a prophet (read: Soldier)? or a sorcerer? or an angel? or an archangel? or God incarnate? (in which case, how does he relate, if at all, to Yves and Kronos?) >> And here's another question: Was his plight the source of great victory or loss for heaven? and does everyone agree on the answer within the turbulent at best hiegharchy of heaven and hell? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 08:07:51 +0100 (MET) From: David Skogsberg Subject: Re: IN> TNATC Movie Trailer (at last!) On Mon, 19 Jan 1998, David Wood wrote: [Nitpicks] > Any revisions, I'll just post to my site. And because I'm a meanie, I > won't say exactly where in my site it's located until I make those > changes. There will probably be other changes made, just to make it a bit > more dramatic. > > -David http://www.bluecrab.org/members/dwood/ Ummm, not to be a fly in the ointment or anything, but the adress to your site is right there in your adress... cd - -- d97skog@dtek.chalmers.se | cd skogsberg ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 01:06:24 +0000 From: "Patrick Chester" Subject: Re: IN> Archangel Canon Fodder > At 12:35 PM +0000 1/16/98, Kevin Walsh wrote: > >> > >> "Flowers" refers not just to plants, but the healing properties of plants, > >> and the peace and beauty flowers represent. > >> > >I'm reminded of the bit in the Jurassic Park novel where whatshername the > >botanist is musing on the utter inaccuracy of this perception. Flowers > >are just a different means of taking part in the great evolutionary > >struggle, and plants are damned violent, and often poisonous. > > Novalis, ruthlessly kind... O;> Well, there has to be a reason why she accepts Malakim in her ranks. ;-) Patrick Chester (aka: claypigeon, Sinapus) wolfone@io.com "Well Jim, that proves it. The Universe not made up of an endless vacuum of eternal nothingness like we once believed. The Universe is in fact made up of Fabio." -Cape Carbunkle bunch at work. :-) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 02:13:37 EST From: Heretic103 Subject: Re: IN> Last Night's Quotes In a message dated 98-01-19 05:41:01 EST, you write: << The moral of this story being: prepare for interventions. >> Last time my players got an intervention was during a driving roll and lets just say all the traffic around chicago got a lot worst and for some reason (And I swear I don't know why even though I was the GM) they ended up shooting everyone from the show scooby doo ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 02:15:30 EST From: Heretic103 Subject: Re: IN> Old Testament or New Testament In a message dated 98-01-19 08:21:24 EST, you write: << I still go along with the theory that Eli was Jesus. This explains a lot in terms of attunements and dissonance, and it is just a fun theory for scenario/campaign ideas. >> I have always liked the one where he is the closest to god in all actuality ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 02:18:07 EST From: Heretic103 Subject: Re: IN> Last Night's Quotes In a message dated 98-01-19 08:29:15 EST, you write: << Yes. It's called the Rule of No. I believe someone already mentioned it, and I just recently used it on a player, just last friday. >> Yeah also known as The Rule of "screw you I am God" resolution and usualy is effective in arguments conserning the world you just created ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 02:52:57 -0500 From: Ni Ke Hsin Subject: Re: IN> Sophia, Angel of Wisdom At 1:58 AM -0500 1/20/98, Heretic103 wrote: >In a message dated 98-01-18 22:31:52 EST, you write: > ><< Sophia is one of the very oldest of the Seraphim: she was created before > even Dominic and the younger archangels >> >I find a problem with this because 1 without man there really wasn't love I know the Bible isn't the source for IN canon, but there is the phrase "God is Love", which would seem, on the surface, to point to love pre-existing humanity. In fact, there's a fairly common argument that God is triune because love needs an object, so you have God the father as lover, God the son as beloved, and God the Holy Spirit as the love. It's not that great of an argument, but it's been around for a long time. And within IN canon, you have the love of Beleth and Blandine. No men seemed to be needed. Ni Ke Hsin ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 05:45:21 -0500 (EST) From: Raoul Duke Subject: Re: IN> Raphael On Tue, 20 Jan 1998, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > Something I did for the IPG, I double-checked, and found *that* > slip of paper had been eaten by something, too -- last minute > fix got done, thank somebody. Otherwise, you might have seen > K.K. in canon, along with Kobal Kamera's Malakim Blooper Reels. > (Instead, you'll see "I'm Going To Hell," prizewinning racehorse, > Lilim of Mammon and Demon of Gambling Debts.) Why would this have necessarily been a bad thing? The horse does sound fun tho. Joe - ------ Big Brother's watching? Learn to become Invisible. "Superheroes are a virus that needs to be exterminated."-- Mark Hughes How I waste my time: http://acs1.bu.edu:8001/~arie/rpg.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 21:26:38 From: Peter Frederick Subject: Re: IN>Heavenly Judgement attunement At 01:19 PM 19/1/98 -0800, Qurent wrote: >In this argument, it seems clear to me that the argument is in favor >of celestial damage *only* when both the attacker and the attackee are >celestial. > >My original question was: If the one being attacked loses his >corporeal vessel (either by choice, or by death) will this weapon >proceed to do Celestial damage? My policy would be NO, if the vessel was destroyed, but YES, if the Celestial tried to move to another Plane to avoid the Sword. Basically the "death" of the vessel ends the attack, if the Celestial tries to dodge somewhere else the Sword follows. I know it is a bit odd, since for Celestials the destruction of a vessel is more an inconvienience than anything else, but it was a ruling made to try to make the power not instant Soul Death, which I don't believe the designers meant it to be. > >---Lee Davis wrote: >> >> >The question hasn't been asked yet, but I think I would rule that >if the >> >target fled from one Plane to another that the Sword followed him >doing the >> >appropriate damage for the new Plane. Also that if called by a >Celestial in >> >Celestial form on the Corporeal Plane targeting another Celestial in >> >Celestial form then it would do Celestial damage. >> > >> Ouch! My understanding was that a vessel pretty much protected >> someone from any form of celestial damage. Or do you mean to say that >> Heavenly Judgement is not useful when called by an angel in celestial >> form against a foe in his vessel? Hmmm, for 7 Essence he better get something so I would have it do Corporeal damage, that is the type of damage which was most normal to the target. If they are both in Celestial form _then_ it does Celestial damage. Thanking you for your indulgence. Yours, Peter. Reply to peterf@wr.com.au What does the Lord require of you, but to do justice and to love kindness and to walk humbly with your God ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 11:02:18 +0000 (GMT) From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Definitions, please > > I recently purchased The Marches, and am considering running a fay > campaign. Those guys are in quite a double bind. > > Ni Ke Hsin > I presume you're excluding the Unseelie from this statement, given that so many of those are evil bastards who would be happy to work with Beleth. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 11:03:50 +0000 (GMT) From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Last Night's Quotes > >> > >No, you should have one predetermined track which the players aren't > >allowed to wander off without suffering terminal boredom. Really. > > (I hope I'm not playing the straight man here but...) I agree with Sorry, I'm afraid that you are. Happens to all of us, I'm afraid. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 11:08:16 +0000 (GMT) From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Last Night's Quotes > > Nooooooo thankyou. Heh. (And then there's the seriously deluded > Habbalite of Fire, no, really, punishing those who deserve it, > weak, cruel... Um. Mistress? Why are you looking at me like that? > I'm just trying to serve your Word....) > Cruelty can be considered to be a form of spiritual weakness. And presumably, anyone who violates the Word of God is obviously too weak to be suffered to live. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 11:14:28 +0000 (GMT) From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Sophia, Angel of Wisdom > In a message dated 98-01-18 22:31:52 EST, you write: > > << Sophia is one of the very oldest of the Seraphim: she was created before > even Dominic and the younger archangels >> > I find a problem with this because 1 without man there really wasn't love and Sorry. But according to canon, Blandine and Beleth loved each other, and before that all the angels loved God. Of course, in your campaign, you're perfectly entitled to say that love is something angels learned from humankind, or even don't possess, but personally I'd find that less interesting. > 2 I think personally there should be only the demon of love but that is my own > twisted view of the whole thing > I wouldn't mind a demon of love (though I reckon Andrealphus would constantly be staring suspiciously at him/her) but why not an angel of love? I think an Archangel of Love is redundant though, given the existence of Eli and Novalis. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 11:16:50 +0000 (GMT) From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Old Testament or New Testament > In a message dated 98-01-18 23:45:40 EST, you write: > > << "Always look on the bright side of life..." >> > > Oh no! it is the arab suicide brigade! > ObNitpick. They weren't Arabs, they were the Judaean People's Front. Great film that, it's wonderful to see Kobal's work at it's best. (Especially the ads he did for Malphas in it.) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 11:18:51 -0000 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: Re: IN>Heavenly Judgement attunement >I know it is a bit odd, since for >Celestials the destruction of a vessel is more an inconvienience than >anything else, but it was a ruling made to try to make the power not >instant Soul Death, which I don't believe the designers meant it to be. I sort of figured the point when you used it on an angel was get them shipped straight back to their heart in heaven, where presumably Dominic and/ or their superior can easily pick them up and dredge an explanation out of them. I'm sure the fact that the accused is in trauma doesn't stop them from standing trial ;-) jo - --------------- "I like getting into hot water, it keeps me clean." G.K. Chesterton http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~jhart/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 11:34:28 +0000 (GMT) From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine, sideways > > Beyond that, I'm not sure: I'm willing to answer any and all > questions. > > Souls seem the best place to start from what you've written. Do mundane humans have souls now? Do Soldiers? Do Sorcerors? If so, does this mean that Sorcerors pass information from incarnation to incarnation if the soul somehow avoids going to Hell (assuming any souls go there)? Can humans become celestial, or has Yahweh prevented others following his path? Are souls an integral part of people, or external entities, sort of like bound Shedites/Mage Avatars? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 11:31:22 -0000 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: Re: IN> Old Testament or New Testament >it's wonderful to see Kobal's work at it's best. Try http://www.lewis-smith.com/esther.htm -- He is a TV critic for the evening standard. Read them and weep. jo (doesn't know how many people will get the references, but its still brilliant) - --------------- "I like getting into hot water, it keeps me clean." G.K. Chesterton http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~jhart/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 11:46:41 +0000 (GMT) From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN>Heavenly Judgement attunement > >I know it is a bit odd, since for > >Celestials the destruction of a vessel is more an inconvienience than > >anything else, but it was a ruling made to try to make the power not > >instant Soul Death, which I don't believe the designers meant it to be. > > I sort of figured the point when you used it on an angel was get them > shipped straight back to their heart in heaven, where presumably Dominic > and/ or their superior can easily pick them up and dredge an explanation out > of them. I'm sure the fact that the accused is in trauma doesn't stop them > from standing trial ;-) > Anyway, the destruction of a vessel is not an inconvenience, so long as you don't have another one, and get to beg your Superior for one, which is what happens if you're a Demon and it's done to you. Getting killed by Servitors of Dominic is probably considered an extreme lapse of competence in Hell, you know. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 98 09:15:16 -0500 From: David Wood Subject: IN> Son of Interventions So far, my party has been accursedly blessed -- they haven't rolled a 666 yet. So I guess to compensate, I've been making my 111s a little strange... (This is documented on MOPB, so if you've seen it, pardon the rehash, but it's just so gosh-darned apropos...) So there were three angels, two Mercurians (of Marc and Dominic) and a Seraph (of Yves) in a bar in a fairly run-down part of town. (Guess who was having the Sambuca and Cream?) There was a guy across the bar they wanted to talk to, in order to trace an arms dealer. The Mercurian of Marc decided to try his resonance on him ...and got a 111. Well, imagine my consternation. A surfeit of 111s and a positive dearth of 666s has made me slightly twitchy. So I decided to get a little rude... I pulled him aside and gave him the results for his resonance. More information than he'd get from a Check Digit 1, not the full detail he'd get from Check Digit 6, and certain information which a Mercurian had no business knowing in the first place. This got him wondering. A few moments later as the group tried to make sense of this mishmash of information, the guy looked up, looked across the bar, thought a moment, dug something out of his wallet, and called over "Josh? Josh Bennett?!" (The Mercurian had been using the name Josh Bennett, but he didn't have a proper role.) Josh began bluffing, remembering a bar in Chicago on such-and-such a street, and Jiminy (the NPC) played along as if it was all true. That thing he pulled out of his wallet was a photograph of Josh and himself, standing in front of a bar. A street sign is visible in the background, and it matched the bluff that Joshua used. The Seraph used his resonance on the photo, and everything about it ran true -- you'd think he was going to hurl. And Josh got home later that evening, and found more stuff there than he remembered. He's now wondering just what sort of life he led... I can't *wait* 'til they roll a 666... - -David http://www.bluecrab.org/members/dwood/ Demon of Obfuscation in service to Malphas ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 09:34:29 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Campaign Seed - A Definite Lack of Faith [VERY long] I realize this is an adventure seed, not history, but: > Wasn't there a time when we could all just get along? No. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 09:42:01 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Definitions, please Ni Ke Hsin wrote: > The Protestants, of course, held that any spirit that wasn't God or > an angel was a demon. As a matter of fact, Lewis speculates that fays fell out of fashion not because of the Scientific Revolution, but because of the Reformation and Counter-Reformation -- the change in religious climate, which became more polarized, so that there was less twilight for the fays to live in. "A brimstone or a churchyard smell began to hang about them" and they were banished "not by an increase in knowledge but by a darkening of superstition." Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 09:53:03 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Campaign Seed - A Definite Lack of Faith [VERY long] > I realize this is an adventure seed, not history, but: > Well, if you can kill off God in one adventure, I say, go for it. :) > > Wasn't there a time when we could all just get along? > > No. > > Earl *LAUGH OUT LOUD* Thanks for that clarification, Earl. I'm such a better person for knowing that. :) My life is now complete. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 10:02:47 -0500 From: johnk@ascc01.ascc.lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) Subject: Re: IN> New Resource - Kyrio/Shed Possessing Forces > > We discussed the thought of a "Possession Capacity" resource, which would > > give a Kyrio or Shed extra capacity to possess beings, but didn't give them > > the advantages of extra Forces. After a while I ruled against it, but > > thought I would float the idea, so other players can pester their Ref's with > > it :) . > > I could see it. Forces are 10 points (and give you 12 points worth of > characteristics!)...I would suggest making it a Resource costing 6 > points/level (mildly overpriced, but not too bad), with the standard limit > of 6 levels. I don't know if I'd want to allow it...not because it's too > powerful, but because I'd be afraid a Kyrio player would overdo it and > neglect buying regular Forces instead... Doubtful, methinks. While possession capacity is nice, getting a REAL force and four more characteristic points for just four more points seems like a great bargain (especially if those points are in Will or something to make their life easier) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 10:04:34 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Christianity in In Nomine. Shadowcat wrote: > Someone mentioned that a person, had put up some ideas for > modifying In Nomine to a christian bent. Seeing as the group I am > getting together are all devout Christians, sans Fran and I, I would > be interesting in looking at this sight. Does anyone have the URL > for it? http://www.hevanet/com/rebarnes/ This version is an extremely conservative adaptation, in my view. A few days ago, I posted a more generic set of modifications of my own. Here's a re-post: ~~~ Shape up the Archangels - ----------------------- I'd reduce the amount of squabbling in Heaven, and radically reduce the sheer emnity. None of this business of Michael called Dominic the "hyena of Heaven," etc. I'd even make Dominic Archangel of Justice. Now, there's a lot of fun to be had from having contrasting Archangels or choirs get on each other's astral nerves or try each other's patience, yea even unto celestial shouting matches, so I'd allow those, but they *are* all the original Good Guys, and they should all know that about each other. Falling and Redeeming - --------------------- Christian tradition is solidly in favor of a totally final fate or doom, contrary to the canon IN idea of any angel being in danger of falling or any demon having the hope of redeeming. But there is a lot of drama to the idea of celestial characters changing state that way. So I propose a more elaborate system. Old system: Unfallen - Outcast/Renegade - Fallen New system: Blessed - Unfallen - Outcast/Renegade - Fallen - Damned The two new states, Blessed and Damned, are final and irrevocable. If you reach either of those states, you have, in effect, *used* *up* your free will and are eternally fixed in that condition. Naturally, most PCs will not start the game Blessed or Damned. (Of course, for a long time, lots of people *thought* Malakim were created Blessed.) ALL Archangels are Blessed. ALL Demon Princes are Damned. The only exceptions might be Janus, Valefor, and Lilith. Typically, human souls are Blessed or Damned when they die. However, reincarnation or shunting off to the Marches is an option in more softcore Christian games. Simple dissipation on death is unlikely unless the person was, ah, Damned unlucky. Immortality - ----------- The immortality of the soul is a very firm Christian tradition. I would say only the Damned can soul-die. Everyone else just goes into Trauma as in the canonical version. If the canon would have had you soul-dead, you go into Trauma so lengthy that you'd better start a new character. This means, by the way, that Remnants are recoverable unless they are Remnants of someone Damned. They are, in effect, in walking, corporeal Trauma. Other Religions - --------------- Obviously, if Christianity is true, or the truest of the available religions, the others are not as true, or simply false. How much this intrudes on play is a political variable the GM must tune carefully. At the hardcore end of the spectrum, if angels come in answer to prayers, they only come in answer to Christian prayers. Soldiers of God are almost always Christians. Some Soliders (of other religions) may *think* they are Soldiers of God but are really dupes of Hell. At the softcore end of the spectrum, Heaven gives everyone's prayers an equal hearing, regardless of creed, and is more equal-opportunity about Soliders of God. At the *really* softcore end, the angels and demons themselves aren't sure which religion is true, except for a very few, like Gabriel, who have been involved directly. I have a hard time imagining a Christian-specifc game in which Gabriel really started Islam, unless she was the vicitm of an infernal deception, which might be what drove her crazy. In the middle, Christians and Christian Soldiers would have only a few advantages, such as an enhanced ability to exorcise. In any Christian game, it is apporpriate for celestials to lean heavier on Christians, tempting them harder or demanding more moral effort of them. Catholic Mods - ------------ Here are some further modifications for a Catholic-specific game. Saints - ------ All Christians believe in saints -- all Christians feel they are or hope to BE saints -- but Catholicism has a large and specific body of learning about them and encourages commerce between them and the faithful still on Earth. A Catholic campaign could have Saints who are of the same power-rank as Archangels, a new type of Superior. (It could likewise have Deep Sinners as infernal counterparts.) There is, perhaps, a College of Saints in parallel with the Seraphim Council, or perhaps there are Saints on the Council. Such saintly Superiors could have lesser saints and angels as PC servitors. The premiere example of such a Superior would be the Blessed Virgin Mary herself, a sort of Heavenly counterpoint to Lilith. Purgatory - --------- In addition to the realms already in the game, we add Purgatory. The human souls in Purgatory are already Blessed, but they are cleansing themselves, refining their characters to make themselves suitable for Heaven. Dante has a detailed and beautiful description of Purgatory, but if you don't like it, you can make your own, of course. You could even make it look like Hell, but with a vastly different attitude. The people there, both human and celestial, are essentially optimistic. The place may be just as painful as Hell, but you are here to get better, and you will, and you will get out. It's like a school, or a hospital. In game terms, some souls may work off part of their purgation by coming back into the Corporeal realm to do good deeds or undo the bad things they did in life. This opens the possibilities of "saints" who are less saintly and more mundane than full, graduated Saints, and of ghost stories about expiational hauntings. Sacraments - ---------- Being baptized, or being in a state of grace after confession, could offer some degree of protection against infernals or ethereals. The Host or holy water might ward off infernals or inimical ethereals, as in many old tales. Church Organization - ------------------ The canon writeup on Soldiers of God already includes a division working out of the Vatican. Such things could be multiplied, and whole new Black Ops divisions of the Church could be imagined up, to interface with the IN celestials. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 10:05:14 -0500 From: Jesse Subject: IN>Flowers >>> "Flowers" refers not just to plants, but the healing properties of plants, >>> and the peace and beauty flowers represent. >>> >>I'm reminded of the bit in the Jurassic Park novel where whatshername the >>botanist is musing on the utter inaccuracy of this perception. Flowers >>are just a different means of taking part in the great evolutionary >>struggle, and plants are damned violent, and often poisonous. > >Novalis, ruthlessly kind... O;> > In the Buddhist tradition Flowers are defined as tethers to the temporal world and tools of the Killer (bedevilment). As such they are something to be avoided. There is a whole chapter in the Dhammapada about how the righteous are better than flowers and how flowers are something to be avoided. Interesting how something like flowers are viewed as lovely and wonderful by most religions but are avoided by Buddhism. This might lead to a good campaign idea. Perhaps Valefor (as an embodiment of the Buddhist Killer) is the most powerful Prince in Hell. Valefor may also pose as an Archangel, but it is not Janus, it is Novalis. Buddhist In Nomine: Play it inside out. Btw: The "Killer" is the Buddhist embodiment of desire, passion, and attachment to this corporeal realm. Because attachment to the world is one of the greatest sins in Buddhism the Killer is definitely something to be avoided. - -Jesse remember that, folks: trust your government, or skinheads will find you and kill you... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 15:08:20 -0000 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: IN> Fair Exchange -- act 3 [Apologise muchly for the spam but I think thats out of my system now ;-) ] Act 3 ** A spotlight illuminates Lilim2, muffled in a trenchcoat, who is in a phonebox. She dials a number and waits with increasing anxiety for someone to answer. Every so often she looks outside nervously, as if worried that she is about to be caught ** PHONE: [click] ** ringing stops ** LILIM2: Thank Lucifer! Hello! Hello? PHONE: - The number you are calling has been disconnected. Concentrate, and try again later [click] - LILIM2: Hello?! Please? ** her face falls, then she dials again ** ** fade to black -- panning out we see a brass plate attached to the side of the phone box which reads 'HMS Marie Celeste'** - --- ** A Victorian style drawing room, complete with chintz wallpaper and overblown antique furnishings. Tasteless china cherubs lurk on a mantelpiece and an enormous mirror is hanging over a fireplace. A writing desk is open and covered with papers. Valefor, wearing an impeccable victorian evening suit with a wing collar, is standing by a window watching some fireworks. Sam, who has acquired 2 black eyes, sits on an overstuffed sofa with a sharp-suited calabite on each side ** SAM: Look, I can explain all this. This is all a misunderstanding, we were just there to do some last minute cleaning. It wasn't my idea, I was put up to it... VAL: ** interrupting sharply ** No, no, no. Not like that. SAM: Eh? VAL: My dear fellow, you should always begin by denying everything. 'I don't know what you are talking about', 'I wasn't there', 'That's not my car', 'Those aren't my fingerprints' ... I'm sure you can imagine the sort of thing. Now you have a go. SAM: ** after a brief pause ** It wasn't me. I wasn't there. I never heard of the place. I never been there in my life. I never saw no jug. I was on holiday in Skegness at the time. I was at my grandmother's funeral. VAL: ** interrupting smoothly again ** Interesting holiday arrangement. Do go on. SAM: Uhh.. Its not my signature. Those aren't my fingerprints. Thats not my blood and I never got beaten up in the lift. Would I lie to you? VAL: There. Much more professional if I might say so. Now who did you say put you up to this? SAM: It was this bird. ** he realises he has given the game away ** Damn. - --- ** Lilim2 is still in the phone box ** PHONE: ** rings ** [click] Good evening, you have reached The Game's call-in hotline. Please press 1 to leave the name and number of someone you dislike so that we can persecute them after the beep, or 2 to enter this week's prize draw. LIL2: ** mutters ** Oh come on, answer it! PHONE: [beeeeeeeeep] LIL2: Come on, boss. Answer the phone you bas... PHONE: [click] ** silence ** LIL2: Hello? KOBAL (from the phone): Kizzy? How sweet of you to call. I had another thought about that little prank of yours, but what can I do for you? LIL2: About this prank thing. Its gone a bit pear-shaped and I was wondering if.. ** suspicious pause ** Err.. when you say you had another thought about it..? KOBAL: Mmm. I was curious so I checked it out. Not a bad idea, but I thought it might benefit from a few minor touches here and there. You can thank me later. LIL2: ** wincing ** Right... thanks, boss. I was wondering if I might thank you in person, kind of soonish? I'm sort of hiding out here at Valefor's and a bit of moral support would be apprecia... ** she trails off as a couple of demonic hoods grab her and pull her out of the phonebox. The phone dangles on the end of its lead ** KOBAL: I suppose I could. I'll see how I feel later. Ciao, Kizz. - --- ** Valefor's drawing room. He is weighing one of the pewter jugs in his hand, and another one is standing on the writing desk. Sam and the calabites are still sitting on the sofa. ** VAL: ** smoothing the side of the jug ** All this effort, old fruit, and you don't even know what it was for, do you? Being caught is a terminal offence here, of course, but failing to appreciate what you were trying to purloin is almost worse. Its like being run out for a duck.[1] This little fake is a model of the ... ** a particularly loud firework drowns out the rest of the sentence ** VAL: ** Evidently irritated, and the jug he is holding fractures into a zillion pieces ** Spiggs, find out who is letting off those flares and tell them to stop, on my authority. I have no objections to high-spirits or civilised celebrations but this is ridiculous. ** One of the calabites nods and leaves the room, being passed in the doorway by an identical calabite who has Lilim2 in an armlock ** CAL: ** salutes ** Your Grace. You asked me to bring her in as soon as I found her. VAL: Ahh, yes. Nice of you to join us, my dear. I was just instructing your hopeless little accomplice here on a few minor techniques which he unfortunately won't be able to put into practice. Do take a seat. ** The calabite throws Lilim2, who is looking very bruised, onto the sofa next to Sam who is a shivering wreck ** VAL: ** picks the other jug up from the table and inspects it briefly ** Now this is the genuine... ** his brows curve into a 'v' ** Very amusing, I'm sure. What have you done with the grail? LIL2: Thats got to be it. Unless .. ** her gaze drifts to the fragments of jug on the floor ** VAL: My dear girl, I wonder if you entirely realise how much trouble you are in. I suggest strongly that you don't aggravate it by implying that I don't know my own property. We are in the presence of two unconvincing fakes.. as well as the pair of /you/. So where is it? LIL2: I swear to Lucifer, I don't know! VAL: ** sighs ** Oh very well. Remember that I offered you the easy route. We only begin with material goods here you know. LIL2: ** blank look ** VAL: We begin by taking all of your worldly possessions, bank accounts, savings, then move onto friends, job, peace of mind, health, self-confidence and future, and finally wind up the job by stealing your sense of purpose, sanity, dreams and identity. And your name of course. Are you sure you wouldn't like to reconsider? ** There is a brief knock on the door and another identical flunky enters ** VAL: ** raises eyebrows with a hard-done-by expression ** FLUNKY: Prince of Dark Humour has come to pay his respects, sir. VAL: How sociable. Do show him in. LIL2: ** closes her eyes in relief ** KOBAL: ** shown in by the flunky. He nods politely to his fellow prince. He is holding (tightly) onto a large bag ** Good of you to see me. Hello Kizzy, you're looking well. VAL: The pleasure's all mine. She's one of yours, old fellow? I'd appreciate it if you could train them a little better, you know. Can I offer you some tea? KOBAL: No thanks, I'm trying to kick the habit. I'll try not to steal too much of your precious time, Val. I'd like to propose a business transaction. ** he reaches into the bag and draws out another identical pewter jug ** VAL: ** formal ** I see. I believe you are holding my property. KOBAL: I thought property was theft? VAL: Only when its someone else's property. I presume you have come to return it. KOBAL: Actually I had planned to sell it, but I thought it was only fair to offer you first refusal. I seem to have taken out some rather excessive insurance policies lately, so if you could see your way to making me an offer that covers the premiums we could have a deal. VAL: Oh, I suppose... ** stops. Thunderstruck expression as he gets it ** This is outrageous. I am actually paying a fair price for something that is in fact my own property. KOBAL: I knew you'd see the funny side. I'll take it in hard cash if you don't mind. LIL2: ** starts to giggle ** ** Another knock at the door, another flunky enters ** FLUNKY: Your grace, I have a messenger at the door who has an urgent delivery for the Prince of Dark Humour. He says that he was told to find him here. VAL: ** waves the flunky to bring the delivery in. He is still speechless ** ** The flunky comes in with Lilim1 who rushes over to Kobal and buries her face in his shoulder ** FLUNKY: The message that came with her is .. ** he uncrumples a note ** 'Andrealphas is sending her back as he thinks she is a bad influence. KOBAL: Good girl. I knew I could rely on you! ** Another flunky enters and maneovers through the growing crowd of servants, addressing Valefor ** FLUNKY: Your Grace, the flares aren't fireworks. The prince of lust has called in the army to deal with his industrial relations. KOBAL: ** Delighted -- he is having a good day ** Not to rush out on you, Val, but I'd rather like to see that. VAL: ** Also brightens -- someone is evidently having a worse day than he is ** Allow me to offer a conveyance, I do believe I'd be curious to take an observation role myself. ** The princes leave together, and the scene fades to black ** - -- ** Total blackness ** PHONE: ** rings ** [click] Herro, Lin Fu Lung's Chinese Laundry. Your dirty linen is our business. ** pause -- distant muffled speech ** KOBAl (answering the phone): Good evening Marc, what can I do you for? Really? Thats interesting. Mine, you say? Well, I'm not their keeper in the strictest sense of the word. Ah.. I see. Can you give me a little more to go on? That doesn't help a great deal, they're all green. OK, I'll see what I can do but in future this sort of thing would be a lot easier if you just remembered to ask her name. - --- THE END (?) [1] The cricketing equivalent of 'adding insult to injury'. Valefor is one of hell's top slow bowlers. - --------------- "I like getting into hot water, it keeps me clean." G.K. Chesterton http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~jhart/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #577 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.