From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Jan 22 13:21:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA06923 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 13:21:18 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id NAA30215 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 13:22:12 -0600 Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 13:22:12 -0600 Message-Id: <199801221922.NAA30215@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #584 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, January 22 1998 Volume 01 : Number 584 In this digest: IN> Furfur? Re: IN>Lying Re: IN> Vessel bits Re: IN> By Any Other Name Re: IN>Origin of Laurence Re: IN> By Any Other Name Re: IN>Origin of Laurence Re: IN> Vessel bits Re: IN> Vessel bits Re: IN> By Any Other Name Re: IN> By Any Other Name Re: IN> By Any Other Name Re: IN> By Any Other Name Re: IN> By Any Other Name Re: IN> By Any Other Name Re: IN> By Any Other Name Re: IN> Vessel bits Re: IN> By Any Other Name Re: IN> By Any Other Name IN> Silly rules hacks. Re: IN> By Any Other Name IN> Yrth Re: IN> By Any Other Name ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 10:54:45 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: IN> Furfur? On Wed, 21 Jan 1998, David Edelstein wrote: > And Furfur, being a brand new Prince, is pedalling hard to establish a > power base and keep it, because right now he's the new kid on the block. I have to ask at this point: how many people actually *use* Furfur as a Demon Prince? If you do, why? Was it because your players failed in Night Music, or was it because you actually *like* the gimp for some reason? The reason I ask is because my players beat him down at the *beginning* of my campaign. The third session, as I recall. Five almost fresh out of character generation 9-Force angels wrecked his plans and humiliated and destroyed him with no effort at all. And I was *trying* to let him succeed (because I wanted Lucifer to show up, not because I wanted a Demon Prince of Hardcore running around). Rich Gant ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 11:06:58 -0500 From: Benjamin Subject: Re: IN>Lying > A Balseraph totally believes his lies, correct? A > balseraph doesn't consider his lies lying. Also, unlike the > Habbalah, a balseraph doesn't maintain delusions of being an > angel - so CONSCIENTIOUS lying shouldn't offend it as it would > a seraph. Therefore, a balseraph with the lying skill could > delude itself in preparation to lying and believe something > false, then decide to lie and tell the truth - but it would > show up as lying to a detect lies scan :):). This kind of "am > I lying" double-whammy could be all kinds of fun if you were > trying to delude a seraph or something. You'd never be able to > trust your detect lies abilities again :):). Yes. This is true and it is a fair thing to do to seraphs. Remeber though that the Balseraph will be generating dissonece hand over fist as he is going against his nature. - -Jesse remember that, folks: trust your government, or skinheads will find you and kill you... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 11:08:29 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> Vessel bits On Wed, 21 Jan 1998, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: > The vessels are very, very close to normal > bodies. It still hasn't been decided if there are > very subtle differences that can be detected by > intense scientific analysis. On a related note: do vessels have navels? :) Rich Gant ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 11:11:14 EST From: MarkDEddy Subject: Re: IN> By Any Other Name In a message dated 1/22/98 6:33:39 AM, earlw@mc.com writes: >Mark, are you running an IN/Narnia crossover? Is Narnia out in >the Marches or a parallel world (as originally conceived) or what? (As a side note: Jadis *is* the White Witch's name, which we find out in _The_Magician's_Nephew_.) The players don't yet know that the Narnia worldview (See _The_Last_Battle_) is actually correct. In my game, the Higer Heavens are connected to Higher Heavens of other, parallel, universes. Narnia, however, only exists in the Marches and the works of C. S. Lewis. However, Tianel, our Mercurian of Archives, has discovered that the Library has approximately fifty additional books on Narnia, about half of which are interpolations by Lewis expounding even more on Christian (specifically Anglican) themes. She has also discovered that the 12-year-old Soldier of Jean occasionally wanders into the Narnia portion of the Marches, thanks to the Cherub of Blandine in service to Christopher who is her (the soldier's) guardian. The word Narnians, as I have given it, means those people who read and loved the Narnia series, and saw through to the Truth behind the Allegory. So, the answer to your question is 1)sorta, maybe and 2)What. Definitely What. Mark(who lves the NPC's) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 11:12:22 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN>Origin of Laurence Querent wrote: > This guy is claiming the mantle of captain of the host long before > 745, before Uriel's ascension, and before Laurence came to power. > Is there a cute answer, or is this something a mortal just wasn't > meant to comprehend? One obvious answer is that "captain" is a lot lower in rank than "commander in chief" and that this is Lawrence before his promotion to Archangel. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 11:25:48 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> By Any Other Name MarkDEddy wrote: > However, Tianel, our Mercurian of Archives, has discovered that the > Library has approximately fifty additional books on Narnia, about > half of which are interpolations by Lewis expounding even more on > Christian (specifically Anglican) themes. This reminds me of the library of unwritten books maintained by Lucien, servant of Dream, in Gaiman's "Sandman" series. At one point, we see him carrying a pile of books including titles like "The Emperor Over Sea" by C. S. Lewis and "The Man Who Was October" by G. K. Chesterton. Also a third Alice book by Carroll. And "Psmith meets Jeeves" by Wodehouse. Etc. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 11:38:32 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN>Origin of Laurence On Thu, 22 Jan 1998, Querent wrote: > This guy is claiming the mantle of captain of the host long before > 745, before Uriel's ascension, and before Laurence came to power. It could still be Laurence with no problem at all. He never claimed to be the leader of the host, just the captain. Since Laurence was Angel of the Sword before he got his promotion, it seems reasonable to assume that he had the Captain of Purity award. (Yes, I know that angels don't normally get ranks like Captain, but it seems to fit for someone as militaristic as Uriel.) Then assume that his statement was misrecorded just a little, and you have the answer. Rich Gatn ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 16:43:28 +0000 (GMT) From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Vessel bits > > The vessels are very, very close to normal > > bodies. It still hasn't been decided if there are > > very subtle differences that can be detected by > > intense scientific analysis. > > On a related note: do vessels have navels? > Every instinct in my mind is telling me that you know the answer to this already, but here goes P. 48, sidebar entitled Celestial Vessels, end of second paragraph, main rulebook... "Also, celestially-generated vessels have navels. You don't think they'd overlook that, do you?" In general, I think that the only difference between vessels and normal bodies is that vessels don't need to replenish their energy with food. The Symphony provides :) The quasi-spiritual nature of vessels is probably responsible for this. And that's sort of linked to partial immunity to heat and cold. After all, it's an influence on the energy balance of humans. But methinks they feel pain normally, and take damage in the same way. They're just stronger, in general. And they're sterile 'cos the Archangels/Demon Princes make them that way. Nothing intrinsic about Vessels in general. I reckon if an Archangel or Demon Prince wanted to make a Vessel that could reproduce without the Celestial Song of Fruition, they'd do so. But there's no reason to, so they don't. (I realise that doesn't mesh well with having an Ethereal Song of Fruition as well as a Celestial one, but I rationalise it as being down to design techniques.) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 12:20:51 -0500 (EST) From: "York H. Dobyns" Subject: Re: IN> Vessel bits Pee Kitty writes: >On Wed, 21 Jan 1998, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: > >> The vessels are very, very close to normal >> bodies. It still hasn't been decided if there are >> very subtle differences that can be detected by >> intense scientific analysis. > >Be VERY careful about deciding the answer to that one...today's "intense, >laboratory-required analysis" can be tomorrow's "handheld scanner". If >it's possible AT ALL to detect a vessel with technology, Vapula will be >issuing the equipment within the year, and humans will have it a few >decades later... Problem is, there already *is* a way, readily available within modern technology (or Iron Age technology, for that matter), to identify a celestial vessel: Lock it up in a cell for a few days, with no food or water. A celestial with a good Acting skill might be able to convincingly mime the distress of starvation and dehydration, but I don't see how (given the abilities of celestials as currently presented) it could mimic the physical symptoms of those conditions, especially the weight loss. Celestial Song of Form (a) creates an audible disturbance, and (b) doesn't last nearly long enough. (Actually, very few Songs last long enough to do anything meaningful outside of a combat-like context or a very brief encounter, but that's a separate beef.) In any case, given the aforementioned extremely low-tech way to identify a celestial vessel, modern technology *almost* certainly has easier ways of doing it already. (I say "almost" because designers of bioassay equipment tend to make some simplifying assumptions, such as that the tissues under scrutiny obey basic laws of physics and chemistry -- celestial vessels conspicuously don't. On the other hand, a Vapulan technology, created by celestials who know exactly what's going on, could avoid this pitfall.) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 12:28:25 -0500 From: johnk@ascc01.ascc.lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) Subject: Re: IN> By Any Other Name > That is an admirable goal, but IN is in an awkward position for > expanding without treading on GM toes. > > First, it is set in the real world, so they can't go around imagining > up other planets or far-away lands, since our world is inconveniently > mapped. ("Shadow World" by Iron Crown gave one *hemisphere* of a > magic planet and deliberately kept the other hemisphere blank for GMs. > "Traveller" did something similar with unmapped sectors, I think.) Heh. There's always the Far Marches (purposely left blank except for one or two areas). Plus I always love to use the dodges ("A hidden monestery deep in Andes" or "something lurking on the ocean floor" or "Under the ice of antarctica something awaits... and it's hungry"). Although I can't (absolutely can't!) give any details, there's something really, really mean buried in Egypt. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 12:43:55 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> By Any Other Name I'm at home sick, so I'm answering things a little slower then normal. > >>>Not that I don't respect the writers and appreciate what they do. I > just > think they need a little customer input from us hard-cores.<<< > > Well, that's one reason why some of us read this list. But I would > really like to know, Emily, what DO you want? You don't like new Superiors > or expanded Superior writeups, you don't like anything that details the > history or future of In Nomine since it might contradict your own campaign, > you don't like adventures -- what is it you WOULD like to see published? > I went ahead and posed this exact question to my group of players, friends, etc., some who are just lurking, and some who have some valid input, since on our local bulliten board this turned out to be a pretty hot topic. After some discussion, some of which you just don't want to know, what people (I'm including me in 'people') don't want to see are New Superiors, or "New and Improved, More Powerful then Ever Before" songs, attunements, powers, NPCs, that sort of thing. The GM can generally create these things, and really, what is provided is more then sufficient. Dan Shauver wrote: "In an IN NOMINE sourcebook, I'd like to see more development. insight into the interactions between superiors, possibly some descriptions of the major players for each superior, and additional insight into Angelic Culture. For instance, say I want to become Dominic's right-wing-dude. How might I go about doing that? Or, what sort of organizations might there be among angels that cross boundaries? For example, is there a sewing circle that includes some of Dominic's folks, some of Gabriel's folks, a devotee of Eli, and maybe even a demon or two?" I agree. I don't really care about how the writers of the source book see the personality of the Superiors themselves. It's passingly interesting, but it's not what makes a player or an non-player tick. It doesn't even drive in game politics, since most of that will be changed during game play as the situation dictates. The main movers and shakers are rarely static. What is far more useful is some real insight into Angelic or Demonic Culture. Some of that is in the APG/IPG, but it's just not deep enough. I'll paraphrase Susan from last night: "Knowing about Dominic is nice, but it's not helpful. Sure, you can read on how to be a Cherub, but nowhere is there what it is like to be a Cherub of Dominic, or what it is like to be a member of a triad. How to my fellow angels work with me? What do I need to do to advance? That short story in the beginning of Heaven and Hell was more useful then all of the books put together so far." She continued in print: "I also agree about expanding on aspects of celestial culture and interaction. Just because a friendship between a Gabrielite and a Dominican would turn heads and cause all sorts of gossip doesn't mean that there aren't legitimate reasons for it to happen. Angels are all on the same side, right?" What is sorely missing is culture. There has been no real discussion of what it is LIKE to be a servitor of say, Laurence, except for inferred from people's stories and postings. We know what it is like to be a Seraph, but not a Seraph of Yves, and we still do not know how Yves runs his organization, what the nature of his relationships with the other Superiors really are (past the allied/associated/etc.) or how he carries them out. There doesn't seem to be any focus on expanding this part of the game world. What really makes a game WORLD, and not just a game are (off the top of my head for doing this for 10 years): * Social interaction between peers and between one's immediate superior * Political interactions and how they are carried out * Organization design - I've done quite a bit of this on my own for In Nomine, because the characters want to know HOW to advance, WHAT they can attain, WHAT to look forward to, What sort of hoops to hop through to get what they need, etc. * Historical context * Descriptions of locations Finally, when all this is worked out, you need NPCs. And after all that, you can finally describe the Superiors themselves. I find there is literally a pile of untouched, unconsidered material that is being disregarded in exchange for Toys. But if you read Feist's Magician series, you'll see he has this exact focus on politics and interactions, and this is what builds a compelling game world. I also offer up the HARN game world as an example of how to build a compelling, evolving, and interesting game world in which the GM has useful material without hurting his creativity and the players have plenty of material in which to create an interesting character. I realize building the internals of Malphasean Organization and the effect that a good Balseraph of Factions can have on humans and other celestial beings is difficult, detailed, and long hard work, but in the end, it's much more useful then a new half-detailed Superior and a handful of overly powered Word bound NPCs. Of my list, the last two that are missing are good historical context _in relation to human history_. I received the following comment: "In an In Nomine supplement, I want history, and lots of it. Celestial PCs can easily be several centuries old, and have experienced an awful lot before the story begins. I DON'T want "In Nomine: The Dark Ages." I want an expanded history of some things that have been going on from celestial perspectives, both in terms of influencing events in human history (what were the celestial influences and implications of ) and also celestial events (things like Dominic's trial of Michael or the rise of newer Demon Princes like Nybbas)." The only history received so far has been only lightly touched on, pertained to a Pyramid article (an act I don't find quite fair, since I don't believe in using a game as a vehicle for magazine subscriptions), or hasn't really related to the BIG events, other then Uriel's trial. And it's clear how people hang on to that event, because it's the only clearly defined event. I would add to that: To create history, but not to use it as a vehicle to add MORE Superiors, etc. To create history, and use what is offered so that the back story can influence the politics of the present day. On locations, I agree with Jo Hart, when she referred to the CoC supplements. Having a location description is extremely useful _when it isn't tied to a module_. Highly detailed areas which are flexible and not tied in to a specific game world are extremely handy to have. The Austin write up is okay, but it's bound to a module, and this coupled with the fact that someplace like New York would have been more useful, diminishes its use for the game master. So that about covers it. This is where *I* would like the game to go (and more Lilim - always need more green chicks ) and the direction I feel it should be pushed. Ditch all the new Superiors, leave those to the GM. Seperate the modules from the information and really TELL us what it means to be a Celestial. That's far more useful then a 1000 new Songs or Attunements will ever be. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 12:46:20 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> By Any Other Name John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: > Heh. There's always the Far Marches (purposely left > blank except for one or two areas). Plus I always love to > use the dodges ("A hidden monestery deep in Andes"... The Far Marches occurred to me as I was writing, and the carefully hidden bits are also natural. But notice how carefully you have to hide them. The basic setting of IN is the contemporary world and is therefore finite and well-mapped. GMs can throw in Dreamland and the odd secret power-base, but you can't make up nations as significant as, say, Germany or Australia and drop them in. Well, you *could*, of course, but surely that's a departure from the canon and the concept on the same order of magnitude as editing the Superiors list. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 12:50:53 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> By Any Other Name > Heh. There's always the Far Marches (purposely left > blank except for one or two areas). Plus I always love to > use the dodges ("A hidden monestery deep in Andes" or "something > lurking on the ocean floor" or "Under the ice of antarctica > something awaits... and it's hungry"). Although I can't > (absolutely can't!) give any details, there's something > really, really mean buried in Egypt. > Why do I have this sinking feeling all of the sudden? Does Egypt have this big button on it that says "Push me, please"? Why does Egypt have to be used as everyone's pet gimmick? I'm already frothing. Just warn me, so I can get good and angry early, and get over it. - - Em, Seraph of Egyptian Historical Accuracy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 13:05:09 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> By Any Other Name Emily Dresner wrote: > Why do I have this sinking feeling all of the sudden? Does Egypt have > this big button on it that says "Push me, please"? Why does Egypt > have to be used as everyone's pet gimmick? It's traditional. Even before India and Tibet were places of mystical adventure, the West looked to Egypt for such thrills. Heck, even Plato spun his Atlantis tale by saying he got it from Solon who got it from the priest in Egypt. When Mme. Blavatsky was creating Theosophy, her first productions were Egyptocentric, such as the book "Isis Unveiled." During her career, Indian mysticism began to overtake Egyptian mysticism on the charts, and she switched to that, but she *started* with Egypt. Also, Egypt has Biblical associations that India, Tibet, South America, and other mystical places lack. Makes a good IN tie-in. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 13:08:42 -0500 From: Jesse Subject: Re: IN> By Any Other Name but you can't make up nations as significant >as, say, Germany or Australia and drop them in. Austrlia is significant? Well, you *could*, of >course, but surely that's a departure from the canon and the concept >on the same order of magnitude as editing the Superiors list. > >Earl So what if it is? if you follow just canon you may be asking for trouble anyway. If you need some "power hungery 3rd world loony" you might as well make it up anyway as the "real world" probably will not threaten to nuke South East Asia if the international community does not follow said nation's demmands. Comic books make up new nations all the time. - -Jesse remember that, folks: trust your government, or skinheads will find you and kill you... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 12:26:39 -0600 From: tom timberlake Subject: Re: IN> By Any Other Name Emily Dresner wrote: > > I'm at home sick, so I'm answering things a little slower then normal. > > > >>>Not that I don't respect the writers and appreciate what they do. I > > just > > think they need a little customer input from us hard-cores.<<< > > > > Well, that's one reason why some of us read this list. But I would > > really like to know, Emily, what DO you want? You don't like new Superiors > > or expanded Superior writeups, you don't like anything that details the > > history or future of In Nomine since it might contradict your own campaign, > > you don't like adventures -- what is it you WOULD like to see published? > > > > I went ahead and posed this exact question to my group of players, > friends, etc., some who are just lurking, and some who have some valid > input, since on our local bulliten board this turned out to be a pretty > hot topic. > > After some discussion, some of which you just don't want to know, what > people (I'm including me in 'people') don't want to see are New Superiors, > or "New and Improved, More Powerful then Ever Before" songs, attunements, > powers, NPCs, that sort of thing. The GM can generally create these > things, and really, what is provided is more then sufficient. > > Dan Shauver wrote: > > "In an IN NOMINE sourcebook, I'd like to see more development. > insight into the interactions between superiors, possibly some > descriptions of the major players for each superior, and additional > insight into Angelic Culture. For instance, say I want to become > Dominic's right-wing-dude. How might I go about doing that? Or, what > sort of organizations might there be among angels that cross > boundaries? For example, is there a sewing circle that includes some > of Dominic's folks, some of Gabriel's folks, a devotee of Eli, and > maybe even a demon or two?" > > I agree. I don't really care about how the writers of the source book see > the personality of the Superiors themselves. It's passingly interesting, > but it's not what makes a player or an non-player tick. It doesn't even > drive in game politics, since most of that will be changed during game > play as the situation dictates. The main movers and shakers are rarely > static. What is far more useful is some real insight into Angelic or > Demonic Culture. Some of that is in the APG/IPG, but it's just not deep > enough. > > I'll paraphrase Susan from last night: > > "Knowing about Dominic is nice, but it's not helpful. Sure, you > can read on how to be a Cherub, but nowhere is there what it is > like to be a Cherub of Dominic, or what it is like to be a member > of a triad. How to my fellow angels work with me? What do I > need to do to advance? That short story in the beginning of > Heaven and Hell was more useful then all of the books put together > so far." > > She continued in print: > > "I also agree about expanding on aspects of celestial culture and > interaction. Just because a friendship between a Gabrielite and a > Dominican would turn heads and cause all sorts of gossip doesn't mean > that there aren't legitimate reasons for it to happen. Angels > are all on the same side, right?" > > What is sorely missing is culture. There has been no real discussion of > what it is LIKE to be a servitor of say, Laurence, except for inferred > from people's stories and postings. We know what it is like to be a > Seraph, but not a Seraph of Yves, and we still do not know how Yves runs > his organization, what the nature of his relationships with the other > Superiors really are (past the allied/associated/etc.) or how he carries > them out. There doesn't seem to be any focus on expanding this part of > the game world. Amen to that, Em. This is what my players really want from the WWtA tribebooks, and what I would like to see from the IN supplements. I'm still working through The Marches right now, but the most interesting things I've seen yet have been Gabriel's Firemen--a good solid clue as to how the White Hats really work with one another to fight the good fight. This, and stuff like the comment about the other angels looking out for the Cherubs, who in their turn spend so much time looking out for others, are some of the best stuff in the books yet. Watch your ears, folks, 'cause I want to be heard clearly--MORE LIKE THIS, PLEASE!--sorry, but I wanted SJG to know how I felt. Apologies to all for shouting. [snip] > I realize building the internals of > Malphasean Organization and the effect that a good Balseraph of Factions > can have on humans and other celestial beings is difficult, detailed, and > long hard work, but in the end, it's much more useful then a new > half-detailed Superior and a handful of overly powered Word bound NPCs. > > Of my list, the last two that are missing are good historical context _in > relation to human history_. I received the following comment: > > "In an In Nomine supplement, I want history, and lots of it. > Celestial PCs can easily be several centuries old, and have > experienced an awful lot before the story begins. I DON'T want > "In Nomine: The Dark Ages." I want an expanded history of some > things that have been going on from celestial perspectives, both > in terms of influencing events in human history (what were the > celestial influences and implications of war, etc.>) and also celestial events (things like Dominic's > trial of Michael or the rise of newer Demon Princes like Nybbas)." > And please make sure that the Humans are responsible for at least half of what goes on, without everything in History having been caused by some Celestial or Ethereal Power. We humans have always been very good at getting ourselves in trouble, and also at being noble enough to make any angel hang their head in humility. What I would like to see is how the various events are interpreted [sp?] by the various Heavenly [or not] factions, their take, spin if you will, on how these things affected their operations and the Symphony. > The only history received so far has been only lightly touched on, > pertained to a Pyramid article (an act I don't find quite fair, since I > don't believe in using a game as a vehicle for magazine subscriptions), [nodnod] I agree on this. If it is a part of the game world, we shouldn't have to subscribe to a magazine to receive it--that is what we pay good money to buy supplements for! [of course, this is IMHO--YMMV]. or > hasn't really related to the BIG events, other then Uriel's trial. And > it's clear how people hang on to that event, because it's the only clearly > defined event. I would add to that: To create history, but not to use it > as a vehicle to add MORE Superiors, etc. To create history, and use what > is offered so that the back story can influence the politics of the > present day. > > On locations, I agree with Jo Hart, when she referred to the CoC > supplements. Having a location description is extremely useful _when it > isn't tied to a module_. Highly detailed areas which are flexible and not > tied in to a specific game world are extremely handy to have. The Austin > write up is okay, but it's bound to a module, and this coupled with the > fact that someplace like New York would have been more useful, diminishes > its use for the game master. I will disagree with Em's dissin' of Austin, though I realize this is a matter of different perspectives. I do agree, though, on the overlooked value of maps. One book that is getting a [excuse the phrase] hell of a workout from me is the WWtA book, Caerns. Maps, with samples of how things look to Weres elsewhere in the world, a Garou world atlas of sorts. Maps, adventure hooks, non-Superiour NPCs for my Weres to meet up with--good sourcebook. Likewise GURPS' Mysterious Places [of Power?]. > [snip] > - Em tom timberlake, role of James the Stone Malakim, you know the rest of my tag........ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 13:32:05 -0500 From: Brandon Quina Subject: Re: IN> Vessel bits > Problem is, there already *is* a way, readily available within modern > technology (or Iron Age technology, for that matter), to identify a > celestial vessel: > > Lock it up in a cell for a few days, with no food or water. Ahh, almost good. However, you /cant/ imprision a celestial. How can you imprison something that can just go Celestial and fly through the wall-- or even ascend to heaven.. Even if you ignore that-- there's the things stats to worry about. Most celestials could /easily/ batter down a door designed not to be battered down. There would be some doors that could keep the 'weaker' celestials imprisoned, but why lock a normal looking human (and some celestials perfer to take 'wimpy' looking vessels) in such a hard to escape room.. Also-- songs. You could simply use something like the Celestial Song of Motion to Teleport away.. but really-- that arguement falls short the second you consider that a celestial can. . .go celestial :) - -- (lore@tmgbbs.com) \\/// Brandon Lance Quina (x x) ICQ Number: 6809944 ---ooO(_)Ooo--- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 13:34:35 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> By Any Other Name Jesse wrote: > So what if it is? if you follow just canon you may be asking for > trouble anyway. Of course. I'm not saying it's bad to deviate from canon. What I'm saying is that IN's basic concept -- angels and demons in the contemporary world -- draws on very public and well-known sources, and so it is tricky for GMs and SJG to expand on the game without colliding with each other. These collisions appear to bother people like Emily. Other people shrug them off. Emily: The kinds of expansions you and your friends would rather see -- additional history and culture of the celestials -- sound more interesting to me than additional Superiors, songs, etc. There, we are in agreement. What puzzles me is that this seems just as likely to collide with GM invention. "Dominic supported the Spanish conquest of the New World? But in my game, he opposed it as a gross injustice." That sort of thing. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 13:48:38 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> By Any Other Name > > Why do I have this sinking feeling all of the sudden? Does Egypt have > > this big button on it that says "Push me, please"? Why does Egypt > > have to be used as everyone's pet gimmick? > > It's traditional. So is ramming #2 pencil up one's nose while singing the Star Spangled Banner. It doesn't mean it needs to be done. > Even before India and Tibet were places of > mystical adventure, the West looked to Egypt for such thrills. Only because people looked at Egypt and didn't know what the heck was going on there. Not to say that Ancient Egypt wasn't an interesting place, because it was, but not it a 'Let's game there' sort of way. They never fail to remind me of Neo-Confucists. I have yet to see anyone do anything even close to historically accurate in a game setting. But hey, it's a game, right? If I just keep repeating that, I'll stop frothing. In time. > Heck, even Plato spun his Atlantis tale by saying he got it from > Solon who got it from the priest in Egypt. When Mme. Blavatsky was > creating Theosophy, her first productions were Egyptocentric, such > as the book "Isis Unveiled." During her career, Indian mysticism > began to overtake Egyptian mysticism on the charts, and she switched > to that, but she *started* with Egypt. Ack. Mme. Blavatsky was also a manic-depressive. Her Isis Unveiled book is just... gads. Egyptian 'mysticism' isn't Egyptian. > > Also, Egypt has Biblical associations that India, Tibet, South America, > and other mystical places lack. Makes a good IN tie-in. > So do the Babylonians, the Canaanites, Hittites, early Turkish, Greeks, Romans, Libyians, Sudaneses, Akkadians, etc, have a cool tie in to not only Biblical associations by historical accuracy. They don't get the heavy handed treatment, and if you ask me, Palestine is just more interesting. I would prefer finding the Ark of the Covenant then some nasty "Egyptian Relic of Set". *froth* - - Em, Seraph of Egyptian Historical Accuracy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 18:51:04 +0000 (GMT) From: Steve Jessop Subject: IN> Silly rules hacks. On Thu, 22 Jan 1998, Kevin Walsh wrote: > > Same guy once played an Ofan(ite) with an acrobatic dodge of 30, and a > > 'pistols' of 20ish. Oh my word, but discord can be abusable if the GM lets > > it. > > Skills can't be higher than six, n'est-ce pas? Bien sur. Since you ask, here are the details. Those who hate rules-hacking / munchkining hit delete now: Acrobatic dodge 30 = Agility/12+Dodge/6+Acrobatics/6+Celestial Artifact/6. Of course he could try resonance on a Perception of 7 for another 1-6. Without the possibly-unwise note that Acrobatics skill is sometimes added to Dodge, he only had CD 13-18, instead of 19-24. Pistols was Ranged/6+Artifact/6+Precision/11 (Or so) His forces were 4/3/2. He was not the smartest or most willful of angels. > Loads of my characters are heavily Discordant, and the problem gets worse > with each successive demon I make. OK. Here goes again. If there is no limit on discord, you can end up with an Impudite of Vapula (for the attunement), with an Unholy Pistol/6 [!], precision/12, ranged/6, artifact/6, who spends all 18 essence and does at least 180 damage in a single shot. Even with dodge and armour, not many vessels can take that. Compare a 'combat machine' with claws etc, who can still only do in the region of 20-30 plus essence spent. Then you give the Impudite a reliquary/6, and take _another_ level 6 discord to balance out. That would be another 36 damage then... Mind you, I only play around with numbers like that for entertainment. I'd never _play_ a character like that. Except in a tournament-style game. Ahem. Oh 'eck. What happens if you do all this for an Ofanite of War with Precision? That's another 6-36 damage without having to spend the essence, and before the other guy gets to move. Where's me calculator? > (None of my angels are Discordant, but This is the important part. The more strictly you apply the 'Discord is Angel leprosy' advice, the sooner angels stop taking it. > Some of the intersections are interesting, like Paranoid and Cowardly. Or Angry and Mercy, for that angst-from-the-start Elohite. If they kill 'em, they did it for a subjective reason. If they don't, the same applies. :( Steve. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 14:01:46 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> By Any Other Name > Emily: > > The kinds of expansions you and your friends would rather see -- > additional history and culture of the celestials -- sound more > interesting to me than additional Superiors, songs, etc. There, > we are in agreement. Huzzah. Now the world must end and reform in a new and interesting fashion. > > What puzzles me is that this seems just as likely to collide with > GM invention. "Dominic supported the Spanish conquest of the > New World? But in my game, he opposed it as a gross injustice." > That sort of thing. > This is true. It is better to focus, maybe, on Superior opinions in general. My players want to see history, I would rather not. It's not something I even agree on with my gaming sewing circle, for various reasons. I'm very picky about historical accuracy, and I have a bad tendancy to demand sources. But if in the same supplement we get "Here is the entire suggested layout of Dominican Society" and "Here is Dommie in the Spanish Inquisition" I would call the supplement an enormous win, and a definite step in the right direction. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 14:02:48 -0500 From: Brandon Quina Subject: IN> Yrth Stupid Question, possibly.. But how would the GURPS Fantasy world of Yrth fit into an In Nomine game?? Has anyone considered running an IN game on Yrth?? - -- (lore@tmgbbs.com) \\/// Brandon Lance Quina (x x) ICQ Number: 6809944 ---ooO(_)Ooo--- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 13:15:05 -0600 (CST) From: Bolie Williams IV Subject: Re: IN> By Any Other Name On Thu, 22 Jan 1998, tom timberlake wrote: > Emily Dresner wrote: > > After some discussion, some of which you just don't want to know, what > > people (I'm including me in 'people') don't want to see are New Superiors, > > or "New and Improved, More Powerful then Ever Before" songs, attunements, > > powers, NPCs, that sort of thing. The GM can generally create these > > things, and really, what is provided is more then sufficient. I have to totally disagree here. I'd love to see new sourcebooks with a mix of background, history, etc... *and* new superiors, songs, attunments, songs, npc's, etc... I do think that more and more powerful songs, etc... is a bad idea, but I would love to see more possibilities *without having to make them up myself*. I know that I *can*, but I don't want to. I pay for someone else to make up the game rules because I don't want to. I'd love to see npc's that help show typical beings of various types with enough background to illuminate some part of the IN world. This would give some background as well as another person for the players to run into. I'd love to see some of the second-rank superiors... ones the players may work directly for and have lots of contact with. And the best part of all of this is that it could be shuffled around and/or completely ignored by each GM at their whim. NPC's could be modified or mixed up. > And please make sure that the Humans are responsible for at least half > of what goes on, without everything in History having been caused by > some Celestial or Ethereal Power. We humans have always been very good > at getting ourselves in trouble, and also at being noble enough to make > any angel hang their head in humility. What I would like to see is how > the various events are interpreted [sp?] by the various Heavenly [or > not] factions, their take, spin if you will, on how these things > affected their operations and the Symphony. I have to strongly agree with this... I'd love to read about how some human invention caused a panic in both Heaven and Hell and how the various superiors reacted. This kind of thing is more interesting than typical so-and-so gave Mankind this, that, etc... I don't particularly need to see a rehash of all of history, though, since there are already history books that do that... only things that impact Celestials and/or the War. > > On locations, I agree with Jo Hart, when she referred to the CoC > > supplements. Having a location description is extremely useful _when it > > isn't tied to a module_. Highly detailed areas which are flexible and not > > tied in to a specific game world are extremely handy to have. The Austin > > write up is okay, but it's bound to a module, and this coupled with the > > fact that someplace like New York would have been more useful, diminishes > > its use for the game master. Having read the Austin write up, I'm not sure how the module being based there makes it any less useful. I also have to counter about New York... What's the deal with NY? Everyone thinks that everything in the country happens in NY. I *like* the fact that SJG uses Austin, a city that's nothing like NY. Living in Houston, I get tired of seeing game supplements for just about every other city in the country (Houston is the 4th largest city in the U.S.). Austin isn't Houston, but it's close.. Bolie IV ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Bolie Williams IV bolie@io.com http://www.io.com/~bolie/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #584 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.