From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Fri Jan 23 09:56:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA03843 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 09:56:49 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id JAA18145 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 09:44:52 -0600 Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 09:44:52 -0600 Message-Id: <199801231544.JAA18145@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #587 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Friday, January 23 1998 Volume 01 : Number 587 In this digest: Re: IN> remove Re: IN> New to In Nomine Re: IN> New to In Nomine Re: IN>Lying [Fluff] Re: IN> Vessel bits IN> Humans in the Symphony IN> By Any Other Name IN> By Any Other Name IN> Celestial (Re)Production IN> Egypt and History Re: IN> Humans in the Symphony Re: IN> By Any Other Name Re: IN> Yrth Re: IN> By Any Other Name (was Re: Gluttony vs. Greed) Re: IN> Raphael Re: IN> Seven IN> In Nomine VALIS Re: IN> By Any Other Name IN> Translation of Michael IN> Literal Translation (last one) Re: IN> By Any Other Name Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #584 Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #584 Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #584 Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #584 IN> Khazars Re: IN> Khazars Re: IN> Seven Re: IN> Vessel bits Re: IN> Vessel bits ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 20:09:24 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> remove At 9:31 PM -0500 1/21/98, DSChenin wrote: >Remove from list DSChenin@aol.com I've made the attempt. Tell me if it didn't work. (And I presume you want off in-nomine-l, not in-nomine-digest?) [running a fever after 3 days on panels at a SF Con...] - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 20:11:40 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> New to In Nomine At 3:22 AM +0000 1/22/98, Jo Hart wrote: >At 16:32 21/01/98 -0500, you wrote: >> >>two angels (or two demons... even an angel and >>a demon) can contribute forces and a superior can make an >>angel with them (adding more forces from the symphony if >>there arnt enough donated.) > >I was wondering about that. I'd have thought that really up to 9 angels/ >demons could be involved in donating forces /parenting. It'd be a nightmare >of a family but hey, it could happen ;) In some of my fiction, it was a trio... Yes, you can have as many parents as the GM will allow... At 4:04 AM +0000 1/22/98, Steve Jessop wrote: >On Thu, 22 Jan 1998, Jo Hart wrote: > >> I was wondering about that. I'd have thought that really up to 9 angels/ >> demons could be involved in donating forces /parenting. It'd be a nightmare >> of a family but hey, it could happen ;) > >If it's that easy, why not get 18 together? I can't see Baal missing the >opportunity to sweep the dregs of some remnants and/or general scum >together to make that super-combat-hack he's always been dreaming of. > >I do mean 'why not' as in 'what is the reason', rather than 'I think there >isn't one'. 'Rubbish in, rubbish out' springs to mind first as an answer. That's a good one, yes. And who's to say he doesn't? It's just more time-consuming than yanking some seven-forceling out of the Symphony by force... And you don't have potential memetic contamination. [running a fever after 3 days on panels at a SF Con...] - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 20:01:04 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> New to In Nomine At 2:49 PM -0600 1/21/98, Christopher Nichols wrote: >First, how great a variance in forms is there in celestials? > Can Lilim be colors other than green? Could a Mercurian >have hawk legs? This is a serious GM call. Canon? Urm. I think I'd say that no matter what color the Lilim was, she would also be green (for some value of green). Just like Gabriel is at once a burning Wheel and a beautiful humanoid. A Seraph (or Balseraph) might manifest as a winged Naga-esque creature, but they are also the six-eyed winged serpant. (That's the nice thing about being celestial -- you can see more than one thing at the same time.) >Second, how are new demons/angels/spirits formed? Are they >spontaniously generated by the celestial realms or >consiously created by Superiors? p. 108: "Most angels were created by their Archangel, molded from the purest patterns of the Symphony." There's also stuff in the APG about baby angels. Relievers/demonlings are different, potentially -- it's not yet stated where they come from, but SJ's suggested that maybe they just show up at Tethers and whatnot. (Demonlings are spawned by people's years-old-dirty toilet stalls, say...) That's non-canon, so far... >I've got a question regarding melding In Nomine with another >game of a similar bent, but I'm not certain it will be well >received, so I'll put it on the back-burner for now. A White Wolf one? Have you checked out the digests of this list? There's a fair amount of discussion of that off and on... >(hey Archangel, loved GURPS IOU!) Thanks! Have you seen In Nomine IOU? [running a fever after 3 days on panels at a SF Con...] - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 19:55:59 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN>Lying [Fluff] At 2:37 PM -0600 1/21/98, Bob the Dancing Monkey wrote: >signoff in_nomine-1 I'm trying to do this. Tell me if it doesn't work. [running a fever after 3 days on panels at a SF Con...] - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 20:17:44 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Vessel bits At 11:08 AM -0400 1/22/98, gantr@NKU.EDU wrote: >On Wed, 21 Jan 1998, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: > >> The vessels are very, very close to normal >> bodies. It still hasn't been decided if there are >> very subtle differences that can be detected by >> intense scientific analysis. > >On a related note: do vessels have navels? > >:) Celestial Vessles box, p. IN48, 2nd paragraph: "Also, celestially- generated vessels have navels. You don't think they'd overlook that, do you?" - --Beth, Demon Princess of Nitpicking (And still feverish. Wheeee!) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 20:56:16 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Humans in the Symphony >>>And please make sure that the Humans are responsible for at least half of what goes on, without everything in History having been caused by some Celestial or Ethereal Power. We humans have always been very good at getting ourselves in trouble, and also at being noble enough to make any angel hang their head in humility.<<< This gets brought up about every other day. Believe me, In Nomine writers are very much aware of (and averse to) the WW syndrome. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 20:56:14 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> By Any Other Name >>>Mmmmh. Arc of the Covenant. Isnt that locked up in Warehouse 23 somewhere?? Still, I imagine that would be a pretty neat artifact..<<< It almost made it into the Liber Reliquarum. Might show up in a Pyramid article with other stuff there wasn't room to include in the book. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 20:56:19 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> By Any Other Name OK Emily, this is good, helpful input. Thank you! Now I understand better where you are coming from. The things you propose are interesting, and I hope we see some of them appear. That said -- you have to realize that there are a lot of In Nomine players out there, and they have different needs. You don't want new Superiors or expanded Superior writeups, or new Resources. (I guess you won't be rushing out to buy the Liber Reliquarum, or the Songbook that I am now working on.) Fair enough. But there are many players who DO want those things. Nearly everything you or anyone else has mentioned -- new Songs, new attunements, Superior writeups, adventures, settings, descriptions of politics -- I have seen some people on this list ask for more of, and others adamantly declare that they won't waste their money on books devoted to those things. So, obviously there are some books you won't buy that other In Nomine players will, and vice versa. And that's probably true of just about every system. I'd say my personal preferences in game products are nearly the opposite of yours, for example. When I get into a new game system, I usually create my world from scratch. If I am using a published setting, I'll take what I'm given, but I rapidly develop my own materials and fill in the blanks with glee. Then the publishers come along and fill some of those blanks themselves, and I shrug. What I usually want to see is more resources, more things to fill in the holes in the game mechanics, more plot seeds and tools that can be used in any setting. I don't want to spend time creating new magic systems or weapon lists or character types, I want to develop *my world*, and let the writers give me resources to use in it as I see fit. >>> * Social interaction between peers and between one's immediate superior * Political interactions and how they are carried out * Organization design - I've done quite a bit of this on my own for In Nomine, because the characters want to know HOW to advance, WHAT they can attain, WHAT to look forward to, What sort of hoops to hop through to get what they need, etc. * Historical context * Descriptions of locations <<< This is all good stuff. But as Earl pointed out, if SJ Games publishes canon on In Nomine New York, or What Celestials Were Doing During the American Revolution, isn't it just as likely that something will be written that hoses what you've written for your campaign? How can we elaborate on the history of celestials, and known, real-world people and places in the In Nomine universe without creating *more* canon that you'll probably disagree with? And again -- that said, I think you might like Fall of the Malakim, notwithstanding your fears about the plot, because it will feature In Nomine Los Angeles in detail, and an adventure that most definitely fleshes out infernal politics. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 20:56:21 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Celestial (Re)Production >>>If it's that easy, why not get 18 together? I can't see Baal missing the opportunity to sweep the dregs of some remnants and/or general scum together to make that super-combat-hack he's always been dreaming of.<<< Baal can grab a bunch of gremlins and imps, squash their Forces together, and create an 18-Force demon anytime he wants to. Demon Princes very rarely create such powerful Servitors from scratch because it's not efficient. Baal can get more use out of 6 3-Force spirits than one 18-Force monster, as a general rule. And he doesn't *want* mega-powerful uppity newborns running around. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 20:56:12 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Egypt and History >>>Does Egypt have this big button on it that says "Push me, please"?<<< No, but you seem to. (Sorry, couldn't resist. I'll have to kick that Habbalite back into the corner of my id...) >>>I'm already frothing. Just warn me, so I can get good and angry early, and get over it.<<< Egypt is used because it has Biblical significance to the plot. And the adventure does not, as far as I know, actually take place in Egypt. >>>> It's traditional. So is ramming #2 pencil up one's nose while singing the Star Spangled Banner. It doesn't mean it needs to be done.<<< What tradition is that? We aren't all Servitors of Kobal.... >>>I have yet to see anyone do anything even close to historically accurate in a game setting. But hey, it's a game, right? If I just keep repeating that, I'll stop frothing. In time.<<< Too bad you're not in my online GURPS Highlander game. You'd probably enjoy it. I threw out Duncan MacLeod and the whole bloody lot of 'em, and I now have an ever-growing library of history books I buy just to research the various eras where the game takes place. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 21:28:19 -0500 From: Brandon Quina Subject: Re: IN> Humans in the Symphony > This gets brought up about every other day. Believe me, In Nomine > writers are very much aware of (and averse to) the WW syndrome. In the defence of White Wolf, they've gotten alot better about that.. Remember-- Vampires and other dudes are very very proud beings. Id be surprised if they /didnt/ claim that everything was their doing and humans were only their idle toys.. But thats off-topic, so lets not go there (Yes, its a bad habit. When people say bad things about GURPS, In Nomine, Vampire or even AD&D I have a habit of defending them) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 21:36:47 -0500 From: Brandon Quina Subject: Re: IN> By Any Other Name > So, obviously there are some books you won't buy that other In Nomine > players will, and vice versa. And that's probably true of just about > every system. Hmmm.. I guess im weird.. Ill probally end up buying every In Nomine book I can get my greedy little hands on, simply because im addicted.. :) Im the same way with Vampire: the Dark Ages and am rapidly getting that way with GURPs.. Of course, I have the problem that I simply cant afford to scoop up every GURPs book that I can... :) So it ends up being.. get GURPS Fantasy, Compendium II, and Fantasy Folk and have them mail order Heaven and Hell since they cant seem to ever get it in stock when I try to get it.... :) Ohhhh well :) One day ill break down and get the GMs screen. and I hate GMs screens.. > I'd say my personal preferences in game products are nearly the > opposite of yours, for example. When I get into a new game system, I > usually create my world from scratch. If I am using a published > setting, I'll take what I'm given, but I rapidly develop my own > materials and fill in the blanks with glee. Then the publishers come > along and fill some of those blanks themselves, and I shrug. What I > usually want to see is more resources, more things to fill in the > holes in the game mechanics, more plot seeds and tools that can be > used in any setting. I don't want to spend time creating new magic > systems or weapon lists or character types, I want to develop *my > world*, and let the writers give me resources to use in it as I see > fit. Brandon, Habbalah of Nitpicking, Angel of Ignorate Commentary ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 21:52:24 -0500 From: Brandon Quina Subject: Re: IN> Yrth > I did a crossover adventure thingy that's now on the INC, but > that was a "celestials caught in the Banestorm" kind of thing, > rather than rearranging the history and whatnot... and starts drooling. The more he reads the more he drools> Beth. I love you. This is probally the /only way/ ill beable to get my players to Play In Nomine-- and its SOOO cool.. Hmmmmmmmmm... Ill probally wanna use the GURPs In Nomine rules for this.. Yeah.. Make some NPCs that will arrive too.. Get Ready Yrth-- here comes the War! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 21:58:39 -0500 (EST) From: Raoul Duke Subject: Re: IN> By Any Other Name (was Re: Gluttony vs. Greed) On Thu, 22 Jan 1998, Nathaniel Eliot wrote: > > That reminds me; Magog's Prince of Cruelty in Final Trumpet, but > > when'll we get Gog? Don't tell me someone's broken up the act... > Okay, you'll have to explain this one, because my mind just isn't > getting the reference. It's pretty straightforward. Basically, in the Bible, Gog and Magog are described as various things in various places (sometimes beings, sometimes nations), but they *always* come as a set. You just don't have a Magog without a Gog. Now, if Gog hasn't Fallen yet or got destroyed or whatever, that's cool, but they really shouldn't include a Demon Prince named Magog without mentioning where Gog is. Of course, this is beginning to sound like the Great Raphael Debates, so I'll be silent. > > Though why I'm bothering to defend the lifestyle choice of someone > > who chooses to look like a fanged piece of toejam I'll never know. > Every so often, somebody says a corker...that one got a chuckle out > of me... Hey, I do it all for you guys. Joe - ------ Big Brother's watching? Learn to become Invisible. "Superheroes are a virus that needs to be exterminated."-- Mark Hughes How I waste my time: http://acs1.bu.edu:8001/~arie/rpg.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 22:02:12 -0500 From: Brandon Quina Subject: Re: IN> Raphael > You *want* to sign up with a superior who will find problems with > every thing you do? No wonder you're a Habbalah... Maybe ill get transported to Yrth and end up being the Habbalite Archangel of Nitpicking ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 03:52:45 +0000 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: IN> Seven At 19:57 22/01/98 +0000, you wrote: >> Faith - Michael ("Who is like God?") > >You know, I have read that translation plenty of times, but I've >always wondered - is the question inherent in the name Michael, or is >it just taken as such by the translators? If it's added in the >translation, then I have even more proof for my "God has the word of >Conflict" idea. It really does mean 'Who is like God?' but its supposed to be a rhetorical question ;-) jo - ---------- "I like getting into hot water, it keeps me clean." G. K. Chesterton jhart@btinternet.com -- http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~jhart/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 22:51:09 -0500 (EST) From: Raoul Duke Subject: IN> In Nomine VALIS So here I am rereading Philip Kindred Dick's VALIS for this favor I'm doing for a friend, and I'm just got IN on the brain so bad (I've been spending much of today trying to stat up the characters from Tromeo and Juliet, fer goshsakes) I came to the realization that it's a guide to enlightenment written by Kobal, in one of his rare generous moods (he justified its release to himself because he figured no human would be able to take it seriously). I'm seeing some serious possiblilies in using parts of the worldview contained therein to seriously shake up a group of players. For those who haven't read the book, do so. Until you do, here's a Cliff's Notes of sorts: A man named Horselover Fat is hit in the head with a pink laser beam from God, which fills him up with all kinds of knowledge, but unfortunately not the kinds he really needs. His quest for understanding leads him to Gnostic Christianity and onwards, at one point concluding that our universe is the intersection of two others, one healthy and one dead (if this sounds familiar to Invisibles readers, it should, and so will a lot of the rest of the book), and that our universe is essentially a) composed of pure information and b) irrational and evil. The true God, as opposed to the false creator god, has insinuated himself into our universe secretly, by means of camoflage, to help us humans by merging with us by means of transmitting information. One passage in particular attracts my interest, gamewise: (page 70) "After a year of analyzing his encounter with Zebra, or God, or the Logos, whatever, Fat came to the conclusion that it had invaded our universe; and a year later he realized that it was consuming-- that is, devouring-- our universe. Zebra accomplished this by a process much like transubstantiation. This is the miracle in which the two species, the wine and bread, invisibly become the blood and body of Christ. [...] The entire universe, possibly, is in the invisible process of turning into the Lord. And with this process comes not just sentience but-- sanity." Imagine a group of angels, hearing a slight noise in the symphony, but with no apparent cause by any means they can distinguish, as their surroundings appear unchanged. This continues for some time, until one or more of them are contacted by the entity, identifying itself as the true God, trying to free mankind from the trap set by the False, Creator God no one, man or angel, has ever seen, hiding outside his flawed creation. Will they believe it, and aid it in its quest to transform the Symphony? How will their Archangels react to this news? Do any already know? Is Yves actually in on the scam, and could he actually be working with Kronos (or even be him... after all, the Library opens into his Archives) to keep humanity in the reincarnation trap? Is it all an Infernal prank thought up by Kobal and Haagenti, the perfect grift with which to eat the Symphony and sucker the angels into helping? Either way, food for thought... Joe - ------ Big Brother's watching? Learn to become Invisible. "Superheroes are a virus that needs to be exterminated."-- Mark Hughes How I waste my time: http://acs1.bu.edu:8001/~arie/rpg.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 03:59:42 +0000 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: IN> By Any Other Name At 12:43 22/01/98 -0500, you wrote: > > >What is sorely missing is culture. There has been no real discussion of >what it is LIKE to be a servitor of say, Laurence, except for inferred >from people's stories and postings. We know what it is like to be a >Seraph, but not a Seraph of Yves, and we still do not know how Yves runs >his organization, what the nature of his relationships with the other >Superiors really are (past the allied/associated/etc.) or how he carries >them out. There doesn't seem to be any focus on expanding this part of >the game world. > I wonder if this is the sort of thing which is better just discussed loosely on the list really. I'm sure people have ideas and I mean, how badly do you want it to be canon. What if they decide to start with Dark Humour...? jo - ---------- "I like getting into hot water, it keeps me clean." G. K. Chesterton jhart@btinternet.com -- http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~jhart/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 02:48:22 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Nutt Subject: IN> Translation of Michael >> Faith - Michael ("Who is like God?") > >You know, I have read that translation plenty of times, but I've >always wondered - is the question inherent in the name Michael, or is >it just taken as such by the translators? If it's added in the >translation, then I have even more proof for my "God has the word of >Conflict" idea. For fairly obvious reasons, I've been concerned about the translation myself. I don't speak any Hebrew, but the translations *I've* found don't generally imply a question. They usually run more along the lines of "Like unto God". Michael Xena/Gabrielle in 2000... Because women are so tactful and diplomatic! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 08:32:58 -0000 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: IN> Literal Translation (last one) >I don't speak any Hebrew, but the translations *I've* found don't >generally imply a question. They usually run more along the lines of "Like unto God". Ca'El means 'Like God'. 'Mi' means 'who?' -----> Mi ca'el (or michael in the anglicisd form) means 'who is like God?' That is a literal translation and I'll shut up now. jo - --------------- "I like getting into hot water, it keeps me clean." G.K. Chesterton http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~jhart/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 10:27:02 +0100 (MET) From: David Skogsberg Subject: Re: IN> By Any Other Name On Thu, 22 Jan 1998, Jesse wrote: > but you can't make up nations as significant > >as, say, Germany or Australia and drop them in. > > Austrlia is significant? I imagine that the Australians think so... I liked it there - hot, yes, but it beats winter here. (It's snowing outside now. Ick.) cd - -- d97skog@dtek.chalmers.se | cd skogsberg ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 13:57:32 +1000 From: Len Undy Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #584 Emily Dresner wrote: > > > > > >- - Em, Seraph of Egyptian Historical Accuracy > > > > Em, a Seraph? Oh, *that* will be the day.... > > Just on this issue. I'm a Bal on everything else. > > > > > Check p. 10 of the Angelic Player's Guide... > > > > "Magog, a servant of David, helped accelerate the collapse of the Egyptian > > empire before engaging Saminga's demons in open warfare, which was forbidden > > then as it is today. Magog Fell soon after. He and those loyal to him were > > entombed beneath the sands of Egypt by David, with the help of Khalid, the > > Angel of Faith. Magog is to remain imprisoned until Armageddon, at which > > point the angels and demons may once again fight openly on the Earth." > > > > Um.... help accelerate? How? It took 1000 YEARS. They had to be invaded > a half dozen times, and the LAST time was from the Greeks, who they saw as > liberating them from the Assyrians, who they saw as liberators from all > sorts of other stuff. Even then, they dragged out the dregs of their > culture until 600AD, after the Greeks got kicked out by someone else. But > they stopped building the big tombs long before then. > > I guess he's a man who took his time in a BIG WAY. Even in Falling. > > Great. The Mummy's Curse. > > - Em, who just doesn't want to know anymore. Ah, just one tiny nitpick, the Greeks(or Macedonians[sp?]) defeated the Persian Empire, not the Assyrians, who were long gone by this time. Just a small, tiny correction, because you are the Seraph of Egyptian Historical Accuracy. :) Bryce(Balseraph in the service of the Demon Princess of Nitpicking(or soon to be). "The Winner writes History. I just touch it up here and there, for accuracy of course." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 10:36:04 +0000 (GMT) From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #584 > > > Check p. 10 of the Angelic Player's Guide... > > > > > > "Magog, a servant of David, helped accelerate the collapse of the Egyptian > > > empire before engaging Saminga's demons in open warfare, which was forbidden > > > then as it is today. Magog Fell soon after. He and those loyal to him were > > > entombed beneath the sands of Egypt by David, with the help of Khalid, the > > > Angel of Faith. Magog is to remain imprisoned until Armageddon, at which > > > point the angels and demons may once again fight openly on the Earth." > > > I will confess to my utter ignorance of most of the Gog/Magog mythos now (to save people the trouble of pointing it out later), but one of the references I've seen related them to the Turks. Whether that was just a bad rep or not, I can't say. Of course, the Khazar Kagan Joseph claimed that his people, who seem to have been Turks, were descended from Togarma, who IIRC was the nephew of Gog and Magog. Unfortunately, the Turks were pretty far from Egypt at this time, and nomadic horsemen don't seem much like David's ideal to me. Do people want me to explain who the Khazars were? > > > > Um.... help accelerate? How? It took 1000 YEARS. They had to be invaded > > a half dozen times, and the LAST time was from the Greeks, who they saw as > > liberating them from the Assyrians, who they saw as liberators from all > > sorts of other stuff. Even then, they dragged out the dregs of their > > culture until 600AD, after the Greeks got kicked out by someone else. But > > they stopped building the big tombs long before then. > > The Romans, wasn't it? Cleopatra was one of the Ptolemaic descendants, IIRC. Of course, given who the people who crushed Egyptian culture were, we might pick Khalid as the guy responsible. > Ah, just one tiny nitpick, the Greeks(or Macedonians[sp?]) defeated the Both, I gather. And there were lots of Greek mercenaries on the Persian side too. Greeks were the best mercenaries because they were absolutely insane and had no qualms about running into battle and letting people stick spears into them from really close up. > Persian Empire, not the Assyrians, who were long gone by this time. > Just a small, tiny correction, because you are the Seraph of Egyptian > Historical Accuracy. :) > > Bryce(Balseraph in the service of the Demon Princess of Nitpicking(or > soon to be). > Kevin Walsh, Renegade Balseraph of Nitpicking with the Truthful Discord. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 11:06:05 -0000 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #584 - ---Kevin Walsh wrote: > > Of course, the Khazar Kagan Joseph claimed that his people, who seem to > have been Turks, were descended from Togarma, who IIRC was the nephew of > Gog and Magog. Unfortunately, the Turks were pretty far from Egypt at > this time, and nomadic horsemen don't seem much like David's ideal to me. > > Do people want me to explain who the Khazars were? Sure, I'd be interested. I learned all my ancient history from playing 'History of the World' and I don't think it had the Khazars in it :) > >Even then, they dragged out the dregs of their > > > culture until 600AD, after the Greeks got kicked out by someone else. But > > > they stopped building the big tombs long before then. > > > > The Romans, wasn't it? Cleopatra was one of the Ptolemaic descendants, IIRC. > Of course, given who the people who crushed Egyptian culture were, we > might pick Khalid as the guy responsible. *nod* Romans, as in Marc-Anthony. Then the French, a while later. > > > > Bryce(Balseraph in the service of the Demon Princess of Nitpicking(or > > soon to be). > > > Kevin Walsh, Renegade Balseraph of Nitpicking with the Truthful Discord. > jo (feeling inadequate because I have no title!) - --------------- "I like getting into hot water, it keeps me clean." G.K. Chesterton http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~jhart/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 11:41:43 +0000 (GMT) From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #584 > > > > Of course, the Khazar Kagan Joseph claimed that his people, who seem to > > have been Turks, were descended from Togarma, who IIRC was the nephew of > > Gog and Magog. Unfortunately, the Turks were pretty far from Egypt at > > this time, and nomadic horsemen don't seem much like David's ideal to me. > > > > Do people want me to explain who the Khazars were? > > Sure, I'd be interested. I learned all my ancient history from playing > 'History of the World' and I don't think it had the Khazars in it :) > Druthmar of Aquitaine, in Expositio in Matthaeum Evangelistam (864): "At the present time we know of no nation in the world where Christians do not live. For in the lands of Gog and Magog who are a Hunnish race and call themselves Gazari there is one tribe, a very belligerent one - Alexander enclosed them and they escaped - and all of them profess the Jewish faith. The Bulgars, however, who are of the same race, recently became Christians." Most of what he wrote here is hearsay, and in the grand tradition of medieval historiography, he made up stuff because it sounded cool, but it gets in because Gog and Magog are mentioned. The Khazars were a semi-nomadic Turkic tribe who settled in the northern Caucasus about the same time as the Huns. After various political maneuvrings, they became the most powerful tribe in the region by the end of the sixth century AD. They then went on to build something of an empire in Southern Russia, forged an alliance with the Byzantine Empire, and played a pivotal role in preventing Islamic expansion into Russia. About the same time as their wars with the Arabs were grinding to an inconclusive halt, the Kagan of the Khazars and his immediate retinue converted to Judaism, and Judaism became the official religion of the state. Khazaria was apparently a beacon of religious tolerance, even including in its Supreme Court token Christians, Muslims and pagans. They also made a lot of money from the Volga and Dnieper river trades, and from the tribute they exacted from neighbouring tribes. Their power was reduced by the coming of new Turkish tribes from the east, the Ghuzz and the Pechenegs, who hadn't been developing civilisation and thus tended to be better fighters, and an invasion of Vikings (known as Rus) from Sweden, who succeeded in replacing them along the Dnieper and in the Crimea, and eventually sacking their capital. The Khazars survived this event, but their empire didn't. From there, the story is one of continuing decline and emigration. It has been seriously put forward that the Ashkenazi Jews are primarily descended from the Khazars. I haven't seen the counterarguments, so I'm waiting to be convinced. There are, sadly, people out there who think that this theory is relevant in discussions of the Israel/Palestine issue, but as I don't personally believe in the Chosen Race, it influences me in neither one direction nor the other. Anyway, there is a website for the Khazaria Info Centre (or maybe it's just a website), which is cool, and looks well-researched. The url is below. http://www.khazaria.com. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 12:48:02 -0000 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: IN> Khazars Not to waste too much bandwidth but I checked out the website and find it amazing. Really. Thanks! There's even a vaguely IN-relevant quote (!) from Ha-Levi "This reminded me of something I had once heard concerning the arguments of a rabbi who sojourned with the king of the Khazars. The latter, as we know from historical records, became a convert to Judaism about four-hundred years ago. Once while he was dreaming, it appeared as if an angel addressed him, saying: "Your way of thinking is pleasing to the Creator, but not your way of acting." Yet he was so zealous in the performance of the Khazarian religion that he devoted himself with a perfect heart to the service of the [shamanist] temple and sacrifices. The angel returned to the king on another night and repeated: "Your way of thinking is pleasing to God, but not your way of acting." This caused the king to consider the different beliefs and religions and to finally become a convert to Judaism together with many other Khazars" I do actually remember having heard the notion that a high proportion of Ashkenazi were descended from some russian tribe who converted en-masse to Judaism for political reasons (its all quite bizarre because Judaism is one of the few religions that actively discourages converts -- anyone interested is supposed to be strongly discouraged three times to test the strength of their resolve before a Rabbi will help to get them started -- or maybe they weren't so tight on that in the 6th century when they were looking for political refuge ;) ); I didn't remember the name of the tribe though. jo - --------------- "I like getting into hot water, it keeps me clean." G.K. Chesterton http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~jhart/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 14:05:40 +0000 (GMT) From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Khazars > I do actually remember having heard the notion that a high proportion of > Ashkenazi were descended from some russian tribe who converted en-masse to > Judaism for political reasons (its all quite bizarre because Judaism is one > of the few religions that actively discourages converts -- anyone interested > is supposed to be strongly discouraged three times to test the strength of > their resolve before a Rabbi will help to get them started -- or maybe they > weren't so tight on that in the 6th century when they were looking for > political refuge ;) ); I didn't remember the name of the tribe though. > Political reasons would definitely have been a part. Acknowledging the supreme spiritual authority of the Patriarch of Constantinople of the Caliph of Baghdad would not have been conducive to independence. But as to conversion, one of the things I read in "The Thirteenth Tribe", by Arthur Koestler, which is where I first heard of them, was that Jews actively sought to convert people to Judaism until it was forbidden by the Muslim and Christian authorities under whom they lived. Some of the methods used to discourage proselytising by the Byzantine authorities were rather extreme. (I think winepresses were mentioned at some stage, though that might have been referring to somewhere else.) But it looks like that attitude to proselytisation was born of persecution rather than a natural part of Judaism. After all, Paul didn't get the idea of preaching to the Gentiles from nowhere. Kevin Walsh, Renegade Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 10:02:58 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> Seven On Thu, 22 Jan 1998, Nathaniel Eliot wrote: > > Faith - Michael ("Who is like God?") > > You know, I have read that translation plenty of times, but I've > always wondered - is the question inherent in the name Michael, or is > it just taken as such by the translators? If it's added in the > translation, then I have even more proof for my "God has the word of > Conflict" idea. Y'know, I didn't know that was suppossed to be read as a question. I always assumed it was a statement about the nature of Michael, since he is considered the chief Archangel in most Angel lore; something like Michael, the angel who is like God. Rich Gant ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 10:09:28 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> Vessel bits On Thu, 22 Jan 1998, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > At 11:08 AM -0400 1/22/98, gantr@NKU.EDU wrote: > >On Wed, 21 Jan 1998, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: > > > >> The vessels are very, very close to normal > >> bodies. It still hasn't been decided if there are > >> very subtle differences that can be detected by > >> intense scientific analysis. > > > >On a related note: do vessels have navels? > > > >:) > > Celestial Vessles box, p. IN48, 2nd paragraph: "Also, celestially- > generated vessels have navels. You don't think they'd overlook that, > do you?" Just to relax everyone, I did know that. I had just finished up a tongue-in-cheek philosophical discussion about angels with one of my players, and thought everyone would appreciate the joke as well. I forgot that humor doesn't translate well on the Web,especially humor that involves in-jokes that nobody else gets. Rich Gant "No, really. I *did* read the rule book! You don't *have* to send The Game for me!" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 10:36:08 -0500 From: Brandon Quina Subject: Re: IN> Vessel bits > Rich Gant > "No, really. I *did* read the rule book! You don't *have* to send > The Game for me!" *Brandon drops forms A1, to D512 infront of Rich* "Tsk Tsk. We wouldnt bother sending the Game after you over so trival a thing as telling an 'inside-joke' on a mailing list, however, to protect our organization we would appreciate it if you filled out forms A1 to D512 for our records, to assure us that such behavior will not be repeated and other numerous messy details that need to be cleaned up incase we later have to take legal action." *Brandon smiles, reaches into his jacket, and drops a pen atop the large ponderous pile of forms* "Ohhh, and here's a Pen." Brandon, Habbalite of Nitpicking ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #587 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.