From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Jan 26 20:41:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA01961 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 20:41:34 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id UAA03749 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 20:44:11 -0600 Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 20:44:11 -0600 Message-Id: <199801270244.UAA03749@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #594 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, January 26 1998 Volume 01 : Number 594 In this digest: Re: IN> Gluttony vs. Greed Re: IN> Last Night's Quotes Canon Doubt And Uncertainty (Re: IN> By Any Other Name) More Khalid stuff (Re: IN> New Archangel: Sophia) Re: IN> Old Testament or New Testament Re: IN> New Archangel: Sophia Re: IN> Buddhist In Nomine Re: IN> IN Type Shows Re: IN> Fallen Re: FLUFF: Titles (Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #584) Re: IN> DP of Nitpicking (Re: Raphael) IN> Prophecy II IN> Tangents (was Re: IN> Angelic Words) IN> Re: Sophia Re: IN> Prophecy II Canon (Re: IN> Kobal's Last Prank) Re: IN> Some questions IN> Lilith a human? Re: IN> Beth's Princess of Nitpicking Re: IN> Kobal's Last Prank (was Re: IN> By Any Other Name) Re: IN> Beth's Princess of Nitpicking Re: IN> Kobal's Last Prank (was Re: IN> By Any Other Name) Re: Canon Doubt And Uncertainty (Re: IN> By Any Other Name) Re: IN> Beth's Princess of Nitpicking Re: Canon Doubt And Uncertainty (Re: IN> By Any Other Name) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 17:37:09 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Gluttony vs. Greed At 4:26 PM -0500 1/21/98, David Edelstein wrote: >>>>No thank you no. I would rather not think about 2000 zit faced 16 year >olds at the command of a Lilim. Ewww.<<< > >I imagine she might think the same thing. > >-David (there's gotta be some things even a Lilim won't do for a Geas...) Lilim don't do Shedim. But the 2000 bratlings, yeah, you need a bodyguard to deal with them. A big strong Djinn one who Needs some cuddling... [finally recovering... ] - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 14:35:43 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Last Night's Quotes At 1:03 AM +0000 1/17/98, Nathaniel Eliot wrote: >> So, how many of us on this mailing list actually play in a >> campaign, either as a GM or a PC? > >Play: >Saphreal, sneaky-paranoid Kyriotate of War, in Walter Milliken's >game. Which means I get to RP with Beth. Be envious. Why? Nobody here but us Soldiers. (Or, to paraphrase what Ellen/Urilebana hissed at the NPC Elohite who's "adopted" her: "WHY DIDN'T YOU TELL ME THAT'S A KYRIO OF WAR?? She's working with *[local Malakite of War]*! I implied really strongly that I was human... Back me up, okay?"] Heh. So, well, that's what I'm doing for RL. (One *really* wonders what's going to happen when Saph finally discovers that Ellen makes noise if she breaks something corporeal. Hopefully she'll be around someone who will protect her...) Have a Bright of Creation in Karakash's game-on-hold... http://www.io.com/~wileyc/nomine/game.html A new-fledged Malakite of Fire in Redneck's Dark Victory PBEM http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/dvpbem/ And K.K. the munchkin Lilim of Dark Humor, in Em's offshoot PBEM! (No URL for that.) [finally recovering... ] - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 17:28:43 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Canon Doubt And Uncertainty (Re: IN> By Any Other Name) At 1:16 PM -0500 1/21/98, Emily Dresner wrote: [...] >The worst part is the removal of the mysteries, and the end to idle >speculation. The more source material there is, the less speculation >there can be, because it's all defined in canon, just buy the book. And >that's what really makes me sad. It's too bad, really. But there >is nothing I can do about it without bringing on three page rants. Oh >well. One of the things that I and Karakash are planning is to find all the "rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty" and mark them as such for future writers, etc. I don't promise to take every single one of every list-member's pet mysteries -- but I'd be interested in seeing *which* mysteries GMs prefered to keep to themselves... Current "This Will Remain Unclear" areas include: Jesus' nature, and very existance Ditto most other Messiahs. Are celestials hopped up ethereals? Some other stuff that I can't remember right now... Anyway, go ahead, tell me. I don't promise to make you happy and use everything, but I don't say I won't. [finally recovering... ] - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 17:05:30 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: More Khalid stuff (Re: IN> New Archangel: Sophia) At 5:30 PM -0500 1/20/98, Raoul Duke wrote: >On Tue, 20 Jan 1998, Emily Dresner wrote: >A question as long as we're talking minor Superiors: Last I heard, Khalid >took on stewardship of Islam as a snub to Laurence over being passed over >to head Heaven's Army. Now I hear he's an Elohite. Do they act out of >spite, especially over something this big? Mind you, I think it's very >neat if he does, but considering the flap over appropriate behavior re: >Raphael and choirs, I was wondering if they'd change his motivation. It's certainly said in Hell that that's what happened. On the other hand, are you going to trust anything a Balseraph tells you? I'd talk more about this, but Khalid's gonna show up in Trumpet (and be mentioned in FotM), so you'll find out soon enough, I hope. [However, it should be noted that he's considered to be somewhat, ah, unstable, these days, poor fellow... (Beth: "Hey, Derek, are there ever going to be any *functional* Elohim Archangels?" Derek: "Well, there was Raphael." Beth: "And he's dead. Ah, yeah. Well, if he shows up anywhere else, can he please have been functional?" Derek: "Yep.") Very loosely paraphrased.] [finally recovering... ] - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 16:35:33 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Old Testament or New Testament At 1:45 AM -0500 1/18/98, Heretic103 wrote: >In a message dated 98-01-17 21:26:17 EST, you write: > ><< That's probably accurate, considering that the New Testament is all about > Jesus, who has not by any means been accepted by the majority of the > Archangels as having actually been sent by God. > >> >Where did you find this little tidbit > >I heard awhile back that in the original Croc Jesus was an archangel Yes, in the original. But not in SJG In Nomine. At least, not that anyone knows... The nature of Jesus is one of the rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty. It is up to the GM to decide, and that was deliberate. [finally recovering... ] - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 16:15:32 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> New Archangel: Sophia At 11:18 PM +0000 1/17/98, Nathaniel Eliot wrote: >> 1) Sophia is also the name of the Angel of Enlightenment, an Elohite >> who once served Raphael. (Yes, I based that on Pistis Sophia, which >> seems to be the same source you used.) > >Ummm - Enlightenment belongs to Litheroy... Revelations is Litheroy -- though he probably would rather have that Sophia as one of his Servitors. Tough -- Yves and Jean have similar claim there, and Yves outranks them all... (I don't remember if canon Sophia has a Superior listed, and if I dig the book out, my grapes will fall over and that would be bad.) >> 2) Andrealphus was the Archangel of Love before he Fell, so he might >> have a strong opinion about Sophia... > >Is this official now? Or are you speculating? It's official -- there's an ittybitty ref in the APG History of the Angels section. (It's in the box.) Well, it didn't say "archangel," but I think all the eldest Worded were probably powerful enough for that... [finally recovering... ] - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 17:59:53 -0500 (EST) From: Raoul Duke Subject: Re: IN> Buddhist In Nomine On Mon, 26 Jan 1998, Perry M. Lloyd wrote: > > I was curious if there would be any interest on the list in this > > project. It would be long (25+ installments) and I probably will > > not finish it before the end of February. If there is interest I > > will probably print it here on the list. If not, I may post it on > One of the characters in my pbem (SOL: Soldiers of Linn see http: > below) is a Zen Buddhist monk (Than Duc Lo). I'd be very, very > interested in your interpretation, since I don't have much background > at all in Zen Buddhism. Jesse gave a quite good summation of the main Buddhist sects, but Zen is a very different animal altogether. There are a number of very good Zen pages on the Web, but I'm in a rush right now, I'll send them out to the list later. As far as printed materials for the interested, read some D.T. Suzuki; he had a clear style of writing, and is usually found in Barnes & Noble and the like. The thing to remember about Zen is that it's a very no-nonsense school of thought: it's concerned with living in this world, since there's no empirical evidence that there even is another, or that souls exist. The problem with Zen (for the outsider) tends to be that they don't want to hand out their teachings to just anyone, hence the often cryptic koans and stories, which usually become crystal clear after a little explaining. Joe - ------ Big Brother's watching? Learn to become Invisible. "We prefer our metaphysics with a money-back guarantee."-- Penn & Teller How I waste my time: http://acs1.bu.edu:8001/~arie/rpg.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 18:08:35 -0500 From: "Mark McKenzie" Subject: Re: IN> IN Type Shows Brandon Quina wrote: > > There's this one show on the Sci-Fi channel. Its called 'American > Gothic'. I watched it the other day, and I couldnt help but > think that the sherrif is a lilim. > We actually play an "American Gothic" version of IN (but Lucas is not a Lilim, although Selina is). It requires a bit of fudging in some areas (esp. Merlyn Temple), but it does allow those of us frustrated by the abrupt end of the series to continue the storyline onward. YMMV. - -- Mark McKenzie <-- Driving the car E-mail: markadv@kinekom.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 18:19:06 -0500 From: "Mark McKenzie" Subject: Re: IN> Fallen Armand wrote: > > I haven't managed to see "The Fallen" yet. I was wondering, being on the > subject of IN related movies, if anyone has seen "The Prophecy II". It has > been rented out at the video store I go to since its release. I've heard > that there is a good reason that it went straight to video, but I would > like to hear more if I can't manage to see it myself. > A few good reasons, actually, chief among them being the lack of Gregory Widen (sp?). In the same way that Highlander (the movie) is superior to all that follows, and for the same reason (in both cases, Widen wrote the original and someone else wrote the sequel without his participation). Other possible drawbacks: 1. Most "special effects" are reused footage from the first film, and those that aren't are, um, restrained. 2. Elias Koteas (sp? again, gee, wish I had the movie box handy right now) does not play Thomas Dagget, although the character remains "in play". More nits on this character exist, but would be spoilers for those who actually want to see the film. 3. The ending is, um, less than satisfying. Not "bad", but definitely leaves you wanting the not-yet-extant and highly-unlikely "Prophecy III" On the plus side: 1. Some more setting-specific "angelic lore" for those who might be interested in a "Prophecy" IN variant 2. The state of affairs at the end of the film creates a good "starting point" for an ongoing campaign in such a variant setting 3. More of that wacky Gabriel action Mark-Bob says "2 1/2 stars, check it out." - -- Mark McKenzie E-mail: markadv@kinekom.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 18:19:58 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: FLUFF: Titles (Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #584) At 7:13 PM -0500 1/23/98, Casca wrote: >On Fri, 23 Jan 1998, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >> Oh, just pick one. Archives, Nitpicking, whatever. I seem to collect >> Servitors... It's very bemusing. > >Bemusing is right. I'm beginning to wonder if my Archangel has Fallen. >She hasn't updated the Archives in over a month.... Christmas 2000 miles away, Line Editing work, Arisia (SF con), getting sick... I did some updating today. I need to get back to the HTML'ed stuff that I've got sitting patiently in my email box... >*sigh* I don't want to have to learn HTML. Why not? >Say, Nathan, here's an idea: if AA Beth -has- fallen, you can have the >Word of Webpages/HTML/whatever, I'll take Continuity, and we'll split the >Archangel mantle between us. > >-- Casca, usually a Seraph of Archives, now quite possibly Outcast... >(bertishg@db.erau.edu) As I recall, I don't have any hostilities with Judgment... Must make a memo to have a triad come by here. [finally recovering... ] - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 18:24:08 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> DP of Nitpicking (Re: Raphael) At 10:25 PM -0500 1/23/98, Emily Dresner wrote: >>>I don't know. I think K. K. has her deep moments. She's sort of like the >>>entire alt.buddha.short.fat.guy newsgroup - she's sort of deep and silly >>>at the same time. >> >>That's scary... I didn't design her to be deep... She's just turning >>out that way. Not enough angst... > >Oh, the angst can be arranged, no sweat. Angst is no problem, really. >K.K. will be taking things a tad more seriously in NO TIME. :) Uh, that wasn't a request... I meant that she was turing out to be deep because she didn't have enough angst, so she was self- generating... Um... >>>Aaaaaaaaaaah but I have PLANS for that hat. Many plans, varied and >>>multicolored. And they are all equally... pleasant. >>> >>Yeah, yeah, I *know* you want that hat. No way. Mine. My hat. MINE! > >That's too bad, for I must unleash my evil scheme. But I can't do so >without the Evil Villan Speech (tm) while I wring my hands: > >"You may think you may possess the Hat of Line Editting, but soon it will >be mine, and I will control the Universe! While you watch helplessly, I >will now unleash the Demon Mole Diggers of Abbaddon, to tunnel under the >ground! You will only be able to watc as they wreck your lawn and eat >your petunias! There is no hope, you can only stand on the side and watch >as your universe falls into my grasp. Go, Moles! Destroy, and return to >me the Hat!" > >Hello, do I play too much SUPERS or what? Yes. And there's just one problem with your evil plot. I don't care about the lawn (the groundskeepers already trashed it once and it's only just recovered to slightly worse than before they "fixed" it), and I don't have any petunias. So the hat is MINE. [finally recovering... ] - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 18:48:25 -0500 From: Jesse Subject: IN> Prophecy II >Mark-Bob says "2 1/2 stars, check it out." Yes, but is Chris Walken in it? It would be a shame if he was not. - -Jesse, sometime Soul of Tounge-Planted-So-Far-in-Cheek-I-Have-a-Second-Set-of-Lips remember that, folks: trust your government, or skinheads will find you and kill you... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 19:06:44 -0500 (EST) From: "York H. Dobyns" Subject: IN> Tangents (was Re: IN> Angelic Words) Neel Krishnaswami writes: [...] >(I am less happily making the in-game God a distant, deistic one, though. >The charm of IN lies in gaming in the familiar Abrahamic conceptual >universe, and taking God out of the picture clearly robs the game of much >of its flavor. But if I can't handle an unfallen human, I doubt I can do a >good job with the Lord Himself. ) OTOH, the portrayal of God in IN neatly sidesteps a couple of problems that I discovered when discussing the game with a Christian gamer of my acquaintance. (Not being a Christian myself, I had a completely different set of personal difficulties with IN's worldview, and never would have spotted these.) My friend told me that, while he found no theological problem with the idea of roleplaying angels, the idea seemed to involve some risk that the GM would be obliged to roleplay God; something that smacked, to him, of blasphemy. I was able to point out instantly that the structure of the game almost guarantees that the GM *won't* ever be obliged to roleplay God (and practically tells players flat-out not to expect this of the GM). Moments thereafter, I found myself wondering if this was cleverness on the game designers' parts, or just luck. (Obviously I'm posting in the right venue to get a straight answer to that one :-).) We also had a little go-round on the issue of angelic free will or lack thereof, in which he reminded of the hoary old chestnut about faith vs. knowledge. I had not, however, thought through one of its implications which he pointed out, which is that a human's loyal service is more virtuous than an angel's, because an angel serves from knowledge of God while a human only has faith. Well, IN's God has pretty well removed himself from the direct knowledge of the PC-level angels. Maybe He's giving them an opportunity to be more virtuous by not divulging all that inconvenient knowledge. Further on, Neel quoted Earl Wajenberg : >>Why not Words with planned obsolenscence? It means the >>Archangels may have to hustle, but the occasion might warrant it. >>"Excuse me, my lords, I petition to be the Angel of World War Two. >>Michael and Novalis both back me up. But could we, um, hurry? >>I mean, this is one with some really clear Good Guys vs Bad Guys, >>and the Good Guys could sure use some luck, er, grace. Now." which raises a further set of questions about the notion of Word-binding. Being Word-bound is described as becoming the embodiment of an abstract concept. One reason the Word-bound try to extend the effects of their Word is that as the Word waxes and wanes in its importance to the Symphony, so does its personification gain and lose power. Now, IN mentions more or less in passing that the Seneschal of a Tether is generally Word-bound to its Tether, without making much of the fact that a Tether is a rather concrete geographical location rather than an abstraction. APG brings the matter home a lot harder, with its portrayal of a Seneschal who's been brought down to 9 Forces because of physical damage to the Tether he's Bound to. It strongly implies that the inevitable further deterioration of this Tether (it's a living tree, and therefore mortal -- and near the end of its possible lifespan anyway) will be mirrored in further Force loss, and eventually destroy the Seneschal completely. Now: if it is the case that being bound to a Word that then vanishes from the Symphony will soul-kill the angel so bound, how many angels would be willing to volunteer to be bound to an intrinsically time-limited Word? Is it possible to *unbind* somebody from a waning Word in order to save his/her life? Now, if it were up to me, I'd say that since Word-binding is supposed to tie you to an *idea*, not to a thing, that a hypothetical "Angel of World War II" still has a Word to resonate with as long as the memory of WWII is preserved in humanity's awareness, even though the war itself ended long ago. On the other hand, I would have ruled that a Seneschal whose Tether gets destroyed simply loses his Word and is no longer a Seneschal, not that he gets soul-killed. Opinions? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 00:38:01 +0000 (GMT) From: James Palmer Subject: IN> Re: Sophia One rather mish-mashed tradition of Sophia's fall is that she takes on human flesh, ends up working as a prostitute in Tyre (?) and is redeemed by Simon Magus! I'm getting this from Robertson Davies and Jung, not original sources (bad student! bad student!), but it's a logical enough idea - a sort of crucifixion parallel. I like the Davies idea that she adds a much-needed female quality to "a Trinity that, to put it blasphemously, consists of two men and a bird." The idea of the relationship between God and Israel being like that between a man and woman crops up everywhere in the Bible. SoS has been mentioned, but there's also quite a lot of it in Isaiah. James Palmer "A wise man knows everything; a shrewd one, everybody." I'm a pariah among netusers - I don't have a web page! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 20:13:54 -0500 From: "Mark McKenzie" Subject: Re: IN> Prophecy II Jesse wrote: > > >Mark-Bob says "2 1/2 stars, check it out." > > Yes, but is Chris Walken in it? It would be a shame if he was not. > Yes, Walken returns (in more ways than one). - -- Mark McKenzie E-mail: markadv@kinekom.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 20:33:28 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Canon (Re: IN> Kobal's Last Prank) At 1:54 AM -0500 1/25/98, Heretic103 wrote: >In a message dated 98-01-23 13:03:00 EST, you write: > ><< in canon >> > >I may be asking an ignorent question but what is canon? Canon is the word for "da rules." It comes from a religious context -- things in the bible are canon, things outside the bible aren't (they're apocrypha, say). My online American Heritage dictionary says: can.on, n. Abbr. can. 1. An ecclesiastical law or code of laws established by a church council. 2. A secular law, rule, or code of law. 3.a. An established principle: the canons of polite society. b. A basis for judgment; a standard or criterion. 4. The books of the Bible officially accepted as Holy Scripture. 5. The works of a writer that have been accepted as authentic: the entire Sherlock Holmes canon. 6. Canon. The part of the Mass beginning after the Preface and Sanctus and ending just before the Lord's Prayer. 7. The calendar of saints accepted by the Roman Catholic Church. 8. Music. A composition or passage in which the same melody is repeated by one or more voices, overlapping in time in the same or a related key. [Middle English canoun, from Old English canon and from Old French, both from Latin canÅn, rule, from Greek kanÅn, measuring rod, rule.] My "Synonym lookup" gets: Noun: A principle governing the affairs of man within or among political units. law, rule, institute, regulation, ordinance, decree, prescription, precept, edict. [finally recovering... ] - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 20:46:06 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Some questions At 3:17 PM -0800 1/25/98, Michael Bowman wrote: >Thanks for the answers. Sorry it's taken me so long to respond, but I >have some more questions! >On Fri, 2 Jan 1998, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >> At 9:52 AM -0800 12/30/97, Michael Bowman wrote: [Elohim of Destiny] >> Oh, you would ask that... I'm going wafflewafflewaffle... (And >> it's another Luciblessed "roll the CD only" effect, too.) Okay, >> from the wording, I'm inclined to let it be bought by other Choirs. >> *However*! I would like some feedback to see how that playtests -- >> does it make Seraphim/Malakim/Mercurians/Cherubim/Kyrios Way Too >> Powerful? > >As someone else mentioned, it would really only stand out for Kyriotates, >but I don't think it would be a major problem. And it would follow from a >common sense reading of the attunement. If it doesn't munchie out... >>>2. In Feast of Blades, Hamet has all Band attunements for Alaemon. But >>>looking at them I see most of them are pretty resonance-specific. As a >>>Duke does he have access to other Bands' resonances like Demon Princes do? >> >>No. It should read "all applicable Band attunements." But that's too >>hard to do. Maybe he has them but can't use them. > >The main reason I asked is that *all* of the Band attunements look pretty >Band-resonance specific to me. I know... About half of them, I could weasle around that he got *some* part of it. (Like taking the Lilim of Gluttony attunement -- you don't get the Geas, but you can still cook stuff that people have to make a Will roll to refuse.) >Here's another question: > >How exactly does one resist something? Force of Will... >Some songs/attunements/resonances >mention resisting where the target only needs to succeed at a roll, >normally a Will roll. Most other occurrences of the term don't say >anything beyond that it can be resisted. I've been assuming that >resistance is done as a Contest, is that correct? If so, I'd recommend >adding something to that effect to the glossary, or the section on Contests. p. 56, Opposing Resonance. This implies that, unless stated otherwise, resistance (of demonic resonance, at least) is indeed a Contest. Resisting the Balseraph resonance, however (p. 142, Game Mechanics) is *not* a contest (it says so). Calabim resonance -- doesn't say it is or isn't a contest, so it goes to the p. 56 default. Habbalah resonance -- becomes mildly confusing, because it *restates* the rules for contests: the check digit has to be higher. Lilim resonance -- can't dodge the perception half of it without wearing sunglasses. The Geas part isn't a contest, since the Lilim doesn't have to roll. The person just rolls (Will - Geaslevel) and any success works. Shedim resonance -- says Will roll to resist. I'd presume that goes to the p. 56 default. Same with Impudites. That help? [finally recovering... ] - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 20:37:49 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Lilith a human? >>>According to IN, Lilith, Demon Princess of Freedom, was created a human (the "Eden Experiment" doesn't make any sense otherwise). This mortal is now a Demon Princess: not only Word-bound, but one of the major powers who transcend the game's mechanics entirely. It thus would appear to be possible in principle for a mortal's soul to become Word-bound.<<< Actually, no -- Lilith was created as Lilith. Not necessarily human, but not exactly a celestial. As the book says, she is unique. And she was immortal from the beginning....Lilith's history suggests that while she was something akin to human, she was not a human. (This is my own take on it -- official canon, as far as I know, has not absolutely established whether or not Lilith was truly human, and this may turn out to be one of those permanent "gray areas".) In any case, Lilith is a unique situation all around. Now in fact, it's possible that Lucifer *could*, if he really wanted to, turn a human into a celestial. Or at least take a human's psyche and imbed it into a celestial so the result is indistinguishable from turning a human into a demon. But he doesn't. Why not? Lots of reasons. Who wants humans in Hell getting above themselves, aspiring to be something more than they are? Certainly not Lucifer -- he led the Rebellion, in part at least, *because* he thought humans were beneath celestials and unworthy of anything like equal status. So he's certainly not going to turn around and create a demon out of a mere mortal. It would contradict everything he's fought for, and infuriate most of Hell. (It would certainly downgrade Lilith's value enormously, not a good thing to do if Lucifer wants to hold her loyalty!) And for what benefit? What abilities could he get out of turning a human into a demon, that he can't get just by creating a new demon? - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 19:40:41 -0600 (CST) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> Beth's Princess of Nitpicking >[[ I'll think about merging various things later. I got bit by an >inspiration bug. ]] > >Beth, Demon Princess of Nitpicking >(Note that in the demonic, Nitpicking could also be translated as "Rules >Nazism" or "Line Editing.") >Band Attunements > >Lilim: >Hell's proofreaders, Lilim of Nitpicking can scan a document (at a number >of 550-word pages per minute equal to their Ethereal Forces) and correct >grammar, spelling, punctuation, word-choice and internal inconsistencies. >Upon receipt of the corrected (or at least red-inked) material, the target >owes the Lilim a Geas, level equal to the time she spent on it (round up), Time measured in what unit? Minutes, hours, days? >Shedim: >Beth's Shedim have the ability to reside in computers, pens, pencils, >typewriters, or other artifacts that could be used to create, possessing >them in the same manner as a Kyriotate of Jean! This takes a resonance >roll, and the duration of possession is up to check digit hours. They may, >if they choose, automatically correct errors committed with their inanimate >host: a typewriter will suddenly back up and strike out the offending typo, >a computer will auto-correct, or the user will find himself (or herself) >erasing something and re-doing it. Using the "silent possession" rules >from the _Infernal Player's Guide_, Shedim of Nitpicking can move around >rather quietly -- people will hold a pen much longer than a stranger's >hand... Ah, but how does one corrupt a lineotype machine? }:-{D Are Shedim of Nitpicking excempt from their Band's Dissonance conditions? >Servitor Attunements > >Eye of Argon >The demon automatically knows which subjects within view are most >vulnerable to his (or her) Band attunement or resonance. (Shedim of >Nitpicking notice unattended items they are allowed to possess.) It's a >GM-call, of course, especially if someone else's Servitor is gifted with >this attunement. Ah, but -any- creation may be nitpicked, therefore anybody is vulnerable. }:-{D >Distinctions >Most of Beth's Distinctions are given to those who get away with >spectacular nitpicks, though they can also be earned (grudgingly) with >loyal service in other ways. > >Knight of Nitpicking >This distinction is always granted to a Servitor of Beth who manages to >correctly nitpick either a Seraph or an Elohite in pedantic mode. It >grants technical excellence in all works; any "soul" to the work will have >to be supplied by the Knight. (Game mechanics: for a technically perfect >creation, roll against a target number of 11. How "moving" it is depends >on if that roll *also* succeeded at the *true* skill level!) Even >non-creative works may be written -- technical writing, for instance -- but >if the true skill is too low, the work will be dry, disinteresting, and >complex. Ah... could you explain this a bit better? I can't make heads or tails of what this distinction is supposed to actully -do.- > >Baron(ess) of Retroactive Editing >Given to those who have managed to nitpick a Superior and gotten away with and get away with it ( }:-{D ) >it, this distinction lets a demon to a "master copy" of a work and correct Lets a demon do what to a master copy? >Beth has higher distinctions, but so far, none of her Servitors have >managed to accurately nitpick Asmodeus, Baal, Kronos, Dominic, Laurence or >Yves and reported back. and report back. Redneck (hey, who nitpicks the nitpickers? }:-{D ) Kris Overstreet, web pages beyond belief http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck - Redneck Gaijin Online http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ - White Lightning Productions http://www.antarctic-press.com/ - Antarctic Press Web Site http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/acupunct/ - Anatomical Acupuncture http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/dvpbem/ - In Nomine: Dark Victory PBEM ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 20:48:34 -0500 (EST) From: Dan Ozdowski Subject: Re: IN> Kobal's Last Prank (was Re: IN> By Any Other Name) According to Emily Dresner: > > > > And indeed, they are heretical and Dominic will send servitors to > > your house to make sure you play In Nomine *correctly*. The holy > > inquisition . . . Outcast angels, and renegade GMs are the biggest > > targets, and believe me-- you dont wanna be caught :) > > Which explains the barbed wire and the 6-barrelled rotary assault cannon > loaded with 1000 rounds of explosive ammunition (66 or 100 shots/second, > depending on the rating of the barrel) mounted on my couch. > > > - Em > > Oooh, a Shadowrun crossover! :) Haha - beware or the Canon fiends will have Jean deck into your PC and give it the ickies! Dan Ozdowski Mercurian of Fluff.... - -- I shall henceforth be referred to as: Lord of Chaos ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 21:04:33 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Beth's Princess of Nitpicking At 7:40 PM -0600 1/26/98, Redneck Gaijin wrote: >>Beth, Demon Princess of Nitpicking >>Lilim: >>Upon receipt of the corrected (or at least red-inked) material, the target >>owes the Lilim a Geas, level equal to the time she spent on it (round up), > >Time measured in what unit? Minutes, hours, days? Time. A Geas/1 is an hour, a Geas/2 is a day, a Geas/3 is a week, etc. >>Shedim: >>Beth's Shedim have the ability to reside in computers, pens, pencils, >>typewriters, or other artifacts that could be used to create, possessing >>them in the same manner as a Kyriotate of Jean! This takes a resonance >>roll, and the duration of possession is up to check digit hours. They may, >>if they choose, automatically correct errors committed with their inanimate >>host: a typewriter will suddenly back up and strike out the offending typo, >>a computer will auto-correct, or the user will find himself (or herself) >>erasing something and re-doing it. Using the "silent possession" rules >>from the _Infernal Player's Guide_, Shedim of Nitpicking can move around >>rather quietly -- people will hold a pen much longer than a stranger's >>hand... > >Ah, but how does one corrupt a lineotype machine? }:-{D Are Shedim of >Nitpicking excempt from their Band's Dissonance conditions? While possessing an item, yes. (Though I could think of some stuff...) >>Servitor Attunements >>Eye of Argon >>GM-call, of course, especially if someone else's Servitor is gifted with >>this attunement. > >Ah, but -any- creation may be nitpicked, therefore anybody is vulnerable. }:-{D Of course! >>Distinctions >>Most of Beth's Distinctions are given to those who get away with >>spectacular nitpicks, though they can also be earned (grudgingly) with >>loyal service in other ways. >> >>Knight of Nitpicking >>This distinction is always granted to a Servitor of Beth who manages to >>correctly nitpick either a Seraph or an Elohite in pedantic mode. It >>grants technical excellence in all works; any "soul" to the work will have >>to be supplied by the Knight. (Game mechanics: for a technically perfect >>creation, roll against a target number of 11. How "moving" it is depends >>on if that roll *also* succeeded at the *true* skill level!) Even >>non-creative works may be written -- technical writing, for instance -- but >>if the true skill is too low, the work will be dry, disinteresting, and >>complex. > >Ah... could you explain this a bit better? I can't make heads or tails of >what this distinction is supposed to actully -do.- It's akin to the Destiny attunement that gives someone a skill of 11 in all Knowledge skills. Except whatever is done will be technically perfect but strangely unsatisfying (unless the *actual* level of the skill is *also* rolled under). >>Baron(ess) of Retroactive Editing >>Given to those who have managed to nitpick a Superior and gotten away with > >and get away with it ( }:-{D ) Whichefer. >>it, this distinction lets a demon to a "master copy" of a work and correct > >Lets a demon do what to a master copy? take a master copy. What Baron was messing with my work!!!? >>Beth has higher distinctions, but so far, none of her Servitors have >>managed to accurately nitpick Asmodeus, Baal, Kronos, Dominic, Laurence or >>Yves and reported back. >and report back. > >Redneck (hey, who nitpicks the nitpickers? }:-{D ) [finally recovering... ] - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 21:08:21 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Kobal's Last Prank (was Re: IN> By Any Other Name) > Oooh, a Shadowrun crossover! :) I played it for years. I can't help myself. Wired 3, you know. *twitch twitch* > Haha - beware or the Canon fiends will have Jean deck into your > PC and give it the ickies! AHHH! NOT THE ICKIES! ANYTHING BUT THE ICKIES! - - Em, Balseraph of No Ickies. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 21:15:41 -0500 (EST) From: Raoul Duke Subject: Re: Canon Doubt And Uncertainty (Re: IN> By Any Other Name) On Mon, 26 Jan 1998, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > One of the things that I and Karakash are planning is to find all the > "rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty" and mark them as such > for future writers, etc. I don't promise to take every single one > of every list-member's pet mysteries -- but I'd be interested in > seeing *which* mysteries GMs prefered to keep to themselves... The only one that leaps to mind immediately is Janus and Valefor. Pleasepleaseplease don't spell out their relationship. I wouldn't mind seeing expanded writeups detailing some of their heirarchies (and how exactly they manage to have any Tethers that don't migrate) and whatnot, but I'd really appreciate not having the mystery revealed, if only so that I can play with my players' minds whenever they show up (Hi Chris and Janice!). One solution I *wouldn't* mind, however, would be to present two or three differing explanations in said writeups... Joe - ------ Big Brother's watching? Learn to become Invisible. "We prefer our metaphysics with a money-back guarantee."-- Penn & Teller How I waste my time: http://acs1.bu.edu:8001/~arie/rpg.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 21:17:48 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Beth's Princess of Nitpicking > >>it, this distinction lets a demon to a "master copy" of a work and correct > > > >Lets a demon do what to a master copy? > > take a master copy. What Baron was messing with my work!!!? *slink away into the inky darkness* "Ah, the Game goes on..." - - Em, Balseraph of Being Mean ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 21:34:01 +0000 From: Nathaniel Eliot Subject: Re: Canon Doubt And Uncertainty (Re: IN> By Any Other Name) > Current "This Will Remain Unclear" areas include: > > Are celestials hopped up ethereals? Grin...I'm now officially happy. Though canon never bothered me anyway... > Some other stuff that I can't remember right now... How about Kobal's Final Joke, and maybe Eli's actions on Earth? Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com "It's the eternal question, really; to be a slave in Heaven, or a star in Hell. But sometimes Hell doesn't look like Hell. On a good day, it can look like LA." - Playing God ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #594 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.