From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sat Oct 17 13:07:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA13360 for ; Sat, 17 Oct 1998 13:07:16 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id MAA15768 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sat, 17 Oct 1998 12:49:01 -0500 Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 12:49:01 -0500 Message-Id: <199810171749.MAA15768@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #980 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Saturday, October 17 1998 Volume 01 : Number 980 In this digest: Re: IN> Re: Max was shafted. Re: IN> Max was shafted. Re: IN> Lilim of Kronos Attunement? Re: IN> Re: Max was shafted. Re: IN> The ruling in Michael's trial Re: IN> The ruling in Michael's trial Re: IN> Re: Max was shafted. Re: IN> Max was shafted. RE: IN> Lilim of Kronos Attunement? Re: IN> The ruling in Michael's trial Re: IN> The ruling in Michael's trial Re: IN> The ruling in Michael's trial Re: IN> The ruling in Michael's trial Re: IN> The ruling in Michael's trial Re: IN> The ruling in Michael's trial Re: IN> The ruling in Michael's trial IN> Laurence's Golden Hour (was Re: IN> The ruling in Michael's trial) IN> Re: IN- The ruling in Michael's trial Re: IN> The ruling in Michael's trial Re: IN> Lilith ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 12:00:07 -0500 (CDT) From: Elizabeth Bartley Subject: Re: IN> Re: Max was shafted. On Fri, 16 Oct 1998, Bartholomew Hammerly wrote: > But no, all the AA's seem to think this is just fine, which strikes me > as another reason FotM sucks royal. Actually, FotM says that the Archangels were horrified when they heard about what David did to Maximillian but when David showed them Maximillian's shattered Heart their protests petered out. (And WHY? The natural reaction would be, "Apparently Malakim can be *pushed* even if they don't Fall on their own. All this is YOUR fault, David." Exact details varying on how bright or dark you make your Heaven. It's plausible enough that face with such a crisis the Archangels pushed everything aside to deal with the crisis, but the phrasing shouldn't make it sound as though it no longer mattered to them: it would matter *more*, not *less*, even if it can't be dealt with at the moment.) There are plenty of other reasons the FotM adventure is awful. Someone PLEASE tell the adventure authors to quit writing mysteries? There are too many resonances and attunements which hose up the plot. Elizabeth Bartley e-bartley@pobox.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 13:06:02 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> Max was shafted. On Fri, 16 Oct 1998, Eeyore wrote: > Which would have had an added benefit from Max's perspective: after the > first time he went berserk, the demons of LA would probably have > forbidden his presence there. There probably isn't anything David would > do to him that could be worse than his stay in LA. David would probably > just disband his forces, which would surely be a relief. On the other hand, that may have been the response David was looking for. David put him there to remind him of what they were fighting. If Max had just gone postal on the demons and gotten vessel-killed, David may have forgiven him and stripped him of any dissonance and Discord. Attacking the demons would have shown that he remembered who and what he was, after all... Richard "Mr. Uriel" Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit my web page. The Gaming Ghetto, at In Nomine: The Last Days, at Walking the Planes, at - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 13:13:24 -0400 From: John Karakash - Lucent ASCC Subject: Re: IN> Lilim of Kronos Attunement? > Steven Feldon (Exchange) wrote: > > The errata on Kyriotates of War seems to imply that _any_ vessel takes > five forces. What if the vessel that the Kyrio chooses is a small, > normally two force animal? It would only 'tie up' two forces, then. In fact, a Kyrio of War can buy multiple vessels and manifest them all at the same time. They aren't allowed to buy more than their total forces, though. And, in terms of the Kyrio's spirit, it'd probably be dangerous not to have at least a FEW free forces to take over things with! - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)388-2665(COOL) MIB2300 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 13:16:17 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> Re: Max was shafted. On Fri, 16 Oct 1998, Bartholomew Hammerly wrote: > I don't know what Max did to get his punishment, but as a Malakite > himself, David is certainly behaving oddly. Torturing one of your > servitors strikes me as... evil. 'Ware the Inquistition, David. I think that David was trying to push Max to act like a Malakite again, instead of what he had done (fall in love with an Outcast who Fell, and killed an angel or two in the process). But it certainly is odd behavior. Most of my players (who are familiar with the story after I went on a "What the Hell?" bender after reading FotM) are now convinced that David's Word is "Dumb As A Bag Of Rocks" instead of "Stone". Of course, I finally came up with a patch that (IMO) makes FotM work. I'd post it to the list, but I have at least one of my players on here as well and I don't want to ruin the surprise. E-mail me privately if you are interested... > But no, all the AA's seem to think this is just fine, which strikes me > as another reason FotM sucks royal. I got the impression that David didn't bother telling anyone. Of course, several Archangels seem to know about it anyway. Why didn't Judgment come down on him? For that matter, why was Laurence cool with it? One last thing - why was David able to soul-kill the Fallen demon when he first showed up to punish Max? Surely she wasn't daft enough to attack him, and he can't throw the first (fill in attack name here) without suffering dissonance. What happened? Richard "Mr. Uriel" Gant "Okay. Max successfully summons David as his girlfriend is Falling, to ask for his help. But then, David rolled a 666 on his observation roll to notice what was going on, followed by another 666 no his oratory roll to tell Max what his punishment was. That's the only way I can possibly explain what David was thinking." - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit my web page. The Gaming Ghetto, at In Nomine: The Last Days, at Walking the Planes, at - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 13:33:23 -0400 From: neel@cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Subject: Re: IN> The ruling in Michael's trial Anders Gabrielsson wrote: > >Michael, Demon Prince of Pride? Hmmm... > >I think Baal would have mixed emotions about Michael falling... It would >weaken the enemy, but it would also create a lot of tension in Hell, I >think. Michael would have a lot of inside info, and could very well insist >on a high position in Hell's army, something that Baal might not be very >happy about. And if Michael really became the DP of Pride, he might insist >on leading Hell's army himself... and everyone would remember that Michael >beat Lucifer himself. Including Lucifer. So maybe he wouldn't give Michael >a Word... but how could he not? Alienating such a powerful entity would be >extremely dangerous... "So," asked the Prince of Darkness, "which word would you like? Pride, Battle, Glory? Even the War may be yours -- Baal won't like it, but really, what can he do?" There was a rumble of laughter from the great serpent. "None of those, little brother." "You should decide quickly -- your arrival has upset the balance of the Descending Hierarchy quite badly; soon the others will combine against you if you do not make your position clear." "It is very clear, I think: I do not choose to be a Demon Prince. Instead I shall be a Demon King." Lucifer frowned, and then watched the great dragon slowly unwind itself. On and on it went, and the memory of just how thoroughly he had lost that first battle rose uncomfortably to the forefront of his mind. The father of lies quickly told himself that it was better to serve in Hell than be blasted into oblivion, and cried out: "All hail Michael I -- who is like the Lord!" - -- Neel Krishnasami neelk@alum.mit.edu - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@cswv.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 14:07:06 -0400 From: Kirt Dankmyer Subject: Re: IN> The ruling in Michael's trial > Lucifer frowned, and then watched the great dragon slowly unwind itself. On > and on it went, and the memory of just how thoroughly he had lost that first > battle rose uncomfortably to the forefront of his mind. The father of lies > quickly told himself that it was better to serve in Hell than be blasted > into oblivion, and cried out: "All hail Michael I -- who is like the Lord!" When a version of this issue came up on the list before, someone -- I forget who -- wrote an excellent piece on the speculation that Lucifer had used his amazing ability to lie to convince Michael that Lucifer was his master... But it was a lie that even the First of Balseraphs did not believe, and so he kept Michael in a dark pit, and used him only sparingly... -Loki - -- Kirt A. Dankmyer --- Academic Computing Specialist http://www.wfu.edu/~dankmyka/ -- (910) 759-4202 -- PGP public key available. For the Snark _was_ a Boojum, you see. --Lewis Carroll ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 12:08:52 -0500 (CDT) From: Elizabeth Bartley Subject: Re: IN> Re: Max was shafted. On Fri, 16 Oct 1998, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: > David was trying to teach a lesson. A very harsh > lesson, but David is a big proponent of tough love and > endurance. An angel that survives successfully what > Max is going through probably would've earned a distinction > at least. It came across as both a punishment for loving a demon so much he protected her and a lesson about the nature of demons. It's a very *dumb* lesson, though: it's common for captives to start identifying with their captors, especially if any sort of a good cop - bad cop routine is being carried on. What is completely unconscionable is that all indications are that David just tossed Maximillian in and walked away. He didn't have a Servitor watching to see that things didn't get out of hand. He didn't meet with Max to see just how much Discord he was taking -- for over fifteen years he didn't check on Discord levels. As far as I can tell, David didn't even find out when Max failed to remove Dissonance with his week at the Tether. Loyalty has to go both ways in order for it to mean anything. (My pet peeve in that adventure is the videotape. Max says he's Falling. Dominic ought to be able to resonate on it *easily* and find out THE TRUTH. And even if something (mentioned nowhere else in the rules) prevents Dommie from doing so, Dommie ought to know something's up when he tries and fails.) Elizabeth Bartley e-bartley@pobox.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 15:16:01 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Max was shafted. At 3:52 PM -0400 10/15/98, BillionSix@aol.com wrote: [...] > That makes two solid reasons for Max not to attack the demons in L.A., and >two solid reasons why it was not his choice,(i.e. His natural dissonance >conditions, plus the direct order he received from David), which makes two >solid reasons why he should not gain dissonance. As I've said before, he wasn't getting dissonance from that oath. He was getting dissonance from his *other* oaths, which had no such loopholes. And yes, a Malakite can make oaths that will put him in a "break one or break the other" standpoint. Does he hit first, disobeying his Archangel -- or does he let Heaven be tarnished by demons being twits? - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 15:19:04 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: RE: IN> Lilim of Kronos Attunement? At 1:00 PM -0700 10/15/98, Steven Feldon (Exchange) wrote: > >The errata on Kyriotates of War seems to imply that _any_ vessel takes five >forces.  What if the vessel that the Kyrio chooses is a small, normally >two force animal? Right. *sigh* Clarification of Errata coming up. P. 131. Change the second sentence under Kyriotates' Choir Attunements to read ``And like others of their Choir, they may still inhabit as many Forces' worth of hosts and/or vessels as the total amount of their Forces -- minus 5 Forces if they choose to have a human vessel of their own! (The GM may rule that animal vessels tie up fewer Forces.)'' - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 15:22:06 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> The ruling in Michael's trial I think Neel ht it on the head. If Michael fell, he would displace Lucifer ... unless Lucifer could rally enough Princes to his side to annihilate Michael. Since he'd very likely lose a few Princes in the process, their enthusiasm might be damped... Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 16:55:54 -0500 From: Eeyore Subject: Re: IN> The ruling in Michael's trial Earl Wajenberg wrote: > I think Neel ht it on the head. If Michael fell, he would > displace Lucifer ... unless Lucifer could rally enough > Princes to his side to annihilate Michael. Since he'd very > likely lose a few Princes in the process, their enthusiasm > might be damped... Also, Baal might react in any number of different ways. One of the more likely, I think, is that he would _want_ to serve under Michael again (now that his former boss has realized which is the right side) and actively help him take over from Lucifer. Mr. Edelstein, you wrote the extended write-up; is this a plausible reading of Baal's personality? J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 19:39:53 EDT From: Samovar3@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> The ruling in Michael's trial In a message dated 98-10-16 04:08:03 EDT, you write: << My reading was that God made his feelings on the subject known before any verdict was reached. What the Council would have decided remains an open question. >> After digging through the books, I found a couple quotes that go against this reasoning. In the Final Trumpet, it says under Michael's write up "Dominic found Michael guilty, but God pardoned Michael for his ceaseless efforts in the cause of Heaven." (pg 14) In Heaven and Hell, under Dominic's write up, we have "...Dominic convened a formal trial and found Michael guilty of the sin of Pride. But Dominic's ruling was overturned by God Himself..." (pg10) So, from these, it seems to me that the trial was completed, but before sentencing, God intervened. What sort of sentence Dominic would have given is unknown (I think it would have been a slight slap on the wrist, but that's me). If Michael Fell, I don't think that he'd be willing to work with the forces of Hell. I think he'd end up with Habbalah-like delusions that he was still doing the work of God. He may even end up founding his own realm like Dis from the INC (don't remember who wrote it). I personally can't see a fallen Michael working within the structure of the Princes, where politics is nearly as important as power. I would also say that Lucifer is vastly more powerful than when he fought Michael, though I'm probably in the minority there. S. Flanigan ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 19:19:14 -0500 (CDT) From: Elizabeth Bartley Subject: Re: IN> The ruling in Michael's trial On Fri, 16 Oct 1998 Samovar3@aol.com wrote: > I would also say that Lucifer is vastly more powerful than when he > fought Michael, though I'm probably in the minority there. I theorize that there's a power associated with the *position* of the head of the Seraphic Council and the head of the rebelling angels. Michael was more powerful than Lucifer when they both held that power, and is no longer a match for Lucifer now that he's stepped down. Laurence holds the position, but he doesn't have a Word as powerful as Michael's, nor the power of one of the Firstborn. I also theorize that Lucifer, Michael, and Gabriel get power from their *names* as well as from their Words. Elizabeth Bartley e-bartley@pobox.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 19:25:17 -0700 From: Stephen Gingell Subject: Re: IN> The ruling in Michael's trial Samovar3@aol.com wrote: > I would also say that Lucifer is vastly more powerful > than when he fought Michael, though I'm probably in the minority there. > > S. Flanigan I would presume Lucifer gets stronger with every one of Hell's victories, while Michael has a much more narrow scope. While he might have been able to kick Lucifer about when he was only getting power from Light, IMC Lucifer is an order of magnitude above Michael nowadays... So that's one who'll join you in the minority, get enougth of us together and we can have our own little Fall... - -Stephen p.s. What was Michael's word back then anyway? Didn't God give him War for his valor during the rebellion? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 22:41:35 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> The ruling in Michael's trial On Fri, 16 Oct 1998, Stephen Gingell wrote: > I would presume Lucifer gets stronger with every one of Hell's > victories, while Michael has a much more narrow scope. While he might > have been able to kick Lucifer about when he was only getting power from > Light, IMC Lucifer is an order of magnitude above Michael nowadays... > So that's one who'll join you in the minority, get enougth of us > together and we can have our own little Fall... I don't think Lucifer is actually all that powerful. Well, actually he is. But not really. See, my theory is that he has gained his power by resonating the Symphony itself. Reality thinks he has power, so he can do things. That is what the War is about. To prove that Lucifer's personal world view as a Balseraph is true. Theoretically, the War could end tomorrow if you could just show the Symphony that he's lying. > p.s. What was Michael's word back then anyway? Didn't God give him War > for his valor during the rebellion? IMO, it was Conflict. A Conflict which forces change and growth. War was not so much a Word he was given, but a specific focus for his Word for the duration. Richard "Mr. Uriel" Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit my web page. The Gaming Ghetto, at In Nomine: The Last Days, at Walking the Planes, at - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 01:54:55 EDT From: Akumsa@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> The ruling in Michael's trial In a message dated 10/16/98 10:48:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time, gantr@NKU.EDU writes: << > p.s. What was Michael's word back then anyway? Didn't God give him War > for his valor during the rebellion? IMO, it was Conflict. A Conflict which forces change and growth. War was not so much a Word he was given, but a specific focus for his Word for the duration. >> IMO going from the Word Conflict to War actually Limits his power, cause there are many other types of Conflicts than just a War. Mind you I am being Literal. I find it more likely that Michael didnt have a Word before the rebellion, and was either Petitioning for War when the Rebellion started, or God Simply granted him the Word because he had the Natural Aptitude for it after the 1/3 of heaven was cast out. I also find it a bit curious that Michael is a Seraf. I dont argue the point, in fact I think it better suits him. However, War *MAY* Be better Suited to a Malakite. The APG said that the Malakim started appearing during the war, Yet Michael, who was obviously a front runner for turning into a Malakim, stayed as a Seraf. Does this suggest an angel may ultimately CHOOSE to become an angel of another chior (Its already been established that its rare for an angel to become another chior, and serious things must happen to cause it). I will argue against my question above myself here, a little. Wars aren't always honorable. Besides, read the lines under Laurences Malakim in the Main rule book. I think it goes: "...Laurence's Malakim are the most honorable fighters in existance, as opposed to Michaels, who win more often..." I strayed from the point, sorry. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- John T Perkowski, Ofanite of Arcade Games MASTER of Attunements (Go ahead, Gimme a word and some details, and in 24 hours, you'll get yerself some attunements). "What a useless scroll, it just says Hastur Hastur Hastur over and over again."-The remains of this character were never Identified. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 15:12:45 +0100 From: Julian Breen Subject: IN> Laurence's Golden Hour (was Re: IN> The ruling in Michael's trial) In message , Steve Jessop writes >Michael Falling? I reckon if he did, then barring God wrapping up the >Universe, Hell would win The War within hours. It's established canon >that even Laurence is no match for Michael in combat. >When Micheal,Lucifer, Baal, Belial, Saminga line up against >Laurence, David, Janus, Gabriel and Jordi I know who I'd bet on. > >But then I belong to the 'Lucifer and Michael are both considerably harder >than you' school of thought. > Alternately, and very ironically, Michael Falling could be just what Heaven actually needs. In such an instance there would be great turmoil in Hell. Two unparalled rivals suddenly being thrust together on the same side? Would Baal be quick to welcome his old adversary with welcome arms as finally having seen the light? I don't think so. At least not openly. He would more than likely consider himself partially cheated of his grand coup de grace. Baal may also feel threatened in his continued leadership of Hell's armies, and this might all lead to him instigating a confrontation between he and his old foe. Who would win? Hard to say, because although Michael is the greater fighter, he would also have the disadvantage of having been attuned to a new Word (whatever that may be). Thus he would have less, or unfamiliar, 'reserves' to call upon. In the aftermath of this fight, when the weakened Baal or Michael is victorious, Laurence would probably strike. The morale of Hell's Armies would be shaken in either outcome and this advantage would have to be pressed. Admittedly, morale in Heaven would be also at a low (due to Michael's defection), yet Laurence could no doubt give a more stirring call to arms than a either a broken warlord or his usurper. - -- Julian ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 08:37:58 PDT From: "Bartholomew Hammerly" Subject: IN> Re: IN- The ruling in Michael's trial >What was Michael's word back then anyway? Didn't God give him War >for his valor during the rebellion? I'll bet he was the Archangel of Unity (or something like that) Bart Hammerly Calabim of Fire "Time is the fire in which we burn." ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 12:53:18 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> The ruling in Michael's trial On Sat, 17 Oct 1998 Akumsa@aol.com wrote: > IMO going from the Word Conflict to War actually Limits his power, cause there > are many other types of Conflicts than just a War. Mind you I am being > Literal. I find it more likely that Michael didnt have a Word before the > rebellion, and was either Petitioning for War when the Rebellion started, or > God Simply granted him the Word because he had the Natural Aptitude for it > after the 1/3 of heaven was cast out. I may not have explained my idea properly. I didn't mean to suggest that Michael's Word was replaiced by War. I think he still has the Word of Conflict, and is just currently emphasizing the "War" aspect of Conflict. He may still have ancient Word-bound Servitors who represent other aspects of Conflict, but they aren't his primary emphasis at the moment. On the other hand, it is equally likely that Michael's Word way back when was just "Michael". After all, the Word of "Who Is Like God" has to be a pretty impressive Word. [Snip commentary about Michael being a Seraph and not a Malakite] > I will argue against my question above myself here, a little. Wars aren't > always honorable. Besides, read the lines under Laurences Malakim in the Main > rule book. I think it goes: "...Laurence's Malakim are the most honorable > fighters in existance, as opposed to Michaels, who win more often..." I think Michael, as a Seraph with the Word of War, represents (among other things) the ugly truth of war. It is brutal and nasty, and no sugar-coating will change that. Michael has to confront the reality of what he is doing, every time he excercises his Word. He canot hide from the truth that people will die (soldiers and civilians alike), lives will be shattered, and hopes and dreams will be destroyed. Laurence represents the idealized concept of warfare. Knightly conduct, honor and respect between combatants, discipline and self-sacrifice, heroism, all the good stuff. Richard "Mr. Uriel" Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit my web page. The Gaming Ghetto, at In Nomine: The Last Days, at Walking the Planes, at - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 10:51:45 -0700 (PDT) From: -=|horsefly|=- Subject: Re: IN> Lilith well, i finally got a copy of _A Dictionary of Angels_, and flipping through it i found something of interest (well, oodles of things, really, but *something* of interest to this thread). contained therein are The Names of Lilith, of which there are 17 listed, admitted to when confronted by Elijah in one legend: Abeko Abito Amizo Batna Eilo Ita Izorpo Kali Kea Kokos Lilith Odam Partash Patrota Podo Satrina Talto ...take those for what they're worth :) -=|horsefly|=- "Back off, preacher, I don't care if it's Sunday. I ain't no angel, but I never felt better!" --FREEDOM, Alice Cooper ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #980 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.