From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sun Oct 18 15:27:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA09291 for ; Sun, 18 Oct 1998 15:27:35 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id PAA05544 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sun, 18 Oct 1998 15:11:54 -0500 Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 15:11:54 -0500 Message-Id: <199810182011.PAA05544@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #981 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Sunday, October 18 1998 Volume 01 : Number 981 In this digest: Re: IN> Information (was Re: IN- In Nomine: Paranoia) IN> Plot Seed -- Shopping for Heaven! Re: IN> Plot Seed -- Shopping for Heaven! Re: IN> The ruling in Michael's trial Re: IN> Plot Seed -- Shopping for Heaven! IN> summonable artifacts IN> Credits...where was she? IN> Comments on Max's treatment Re: IN> The ruling in Michael's trial IN> IN- In Nomine: Paranoia IN> Michael, Demon Prince of ? IN> The Final Trumpet: My opinion ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 21:21:07 +0200 (CEST) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Information (was Re: IN- In Nomine: Paranoia) On Wed, 14 Oct 1998, Neel Krishnaswami wrote: > Add to this the fact that celestials shouldn't normally regard corporeal > death as more than an inconvenience, and the bulk of the tools in > the adventure-writer's toolkit are gone. (Most adventures have fairly > generic hooks, since the writer doesn't know what sorts of PCs would > fit -- but IN has filed off the most commonly used hooks.) > > I think this could be a good thing, if it encouraged adventures of > sorts not normally seen in gaming (say comedies, or genuine moral > dilemmas, or day-in-the-life-of stories), but in practice what we > seem to be getting is either poor plotting or egregious railroading. I've felt a little of the same thing. I think something could be gained by shifting the focus from the plot to the characters - instead of concentrating on what's happening, make the people involved the important thing. Their relationships, how they act and react, how they are changed by what happens. This way it doesn't matter as much if what happens outside the characters is pretty much pre-ordained - it can still be an enjoyable experience to see what happens inside the characters. Exactly how this should be done, I'm not sure. Obviously, creating suitable characters become much more important. Great care should be taken in the design of PC:s and NPC:s alike, and their relationships. I think limiting the scope of the game, at least in regard to the number of characters, will enhance this greatly. If the same people keep showing up again and again and again, the relationships between them become more important. Taking some ideas from soaps might provide inspiration. They have a limited number of important characters, and their relations to each other keep changing. They are typically strongly fixed in locale. The plot is mostly concentrated around the characters and how they relate to each other, as opposed to most major movies, where the plot is usually the important thing. I'm getting a bit too tired to stay coherent now, so I think I'd better stop. :) Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! May you have the knowledge of a sage, and the wisdom of a child. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 20:38:19 +0100 From: Jo Hart Subject: IN> Plot Seed -- Shopping for Heaven! (This is a one-off, really) Premise: The seraphim council has convened to consider the eligibility of three angels whose names have been submitted for the same Word. One is an angel of Destiny, one is an angel of Trade and the third is an angel of the Sword. A test has been devised, and identical versions are presented to all three candidates. The only instruction they are given (other than details of the test) is that they must present themselves again to the seraphim council in precisely one week, with the results of their efforts which will then be judged. One angel of judgement is assigned to each candidate to ensure fair play. PCs are either one of the candidate angels, a friend/ associate of one of the candidate angels, or one of the angels of judgement which is riding shotgun. The word under competition is 'Inspired Impulse Shopping' (the connection with the Sword is that sometimes shopping for exactly the right widget can turn into a personal quest... Laurence understands soul-wrenching personal quests and one of his Mercurians has slipped this one past him :) ). The competition specifically says nothing about whether angels can ask their friends to help. Its assumed that both Destiny and Trade will do this, but the Sword will decide to quest alone. - -- The competition involves each of the archangels or a representative thereof deciding on one item, or type of item, to add to the shopping list. The candidates are then each given a relic platinum card made out for them by the chairangel of the Bank of Heaven (one of Marc's finest) which will be accepted at any mortal bank or shop. They have a week to go out and impress the seraphim council by their inspired impulse shopping purchases! May the best angel win. Expect fireworks as the angels and associates dash round sales, markets, department shops, duty free, museums and auction houses to compete against each other, demonic elements and frantic mortals and secure the best deals. Surely even the cruellest GM wouldn't be mean enough to distract them further with mortals whose lives need to be sorted out, international drug smuggling gangs and demons offloading cuonterfeit currency ... would she? jo NB. Circumstances around this one are that I was asked if I could run a 'very girlie' game for a group of female friends and we were discussing ideas. This was the one which made everyone's eyes light up as they fell about laughing, then immediately started to design characters ;-) I think it could be fun. If anyone is feeling inspired/ helpful I could really use ideas for what types of items each of the archangels would add to the shopping list (Eli's representative acts as proxy for the archangel of creation and writes, right at the bottom of the list, 'And something really cool.' -- that was the only one I had decided!) - -- Jo's (desperately out of date) homepage --> http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~jhart/index.html Jo's (bland, plagiarised and devoid of ideas) IN page --> http://www.btinternet.com/~jhart/IN.html - -- ** Some of the above is indubitably true ** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 16:32:19 EDT From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Plot Seed -- Shopping for Heaven! In a message dated 10/17/98 12:45:27 PM, you wrote: >(This is a one-off, really) > >Premise: The seraphim council has convened to consider the eligibility of >three angels whose names have been submitted for the same Word. One is an >angel of Destiny, one is an angel of Trade and the third is an angel of the >Sword. A test has been devised, and identical versions are presented to all >three candidates. The only instruction they are given (other than details >of the test) is that they must present themselves again to the seraphim >council in precisely one week, with the results of their efforts which will >then be judged. One angel of judgement is assigned to each candidate to >ensure fair play. > >PCs are either one of the candidate angels, a friend/ associate of one of >the candidate angels, or one of the angels of judgement which is riding >shotgun. > >The word under competition is 'Inspired Impulse Shopping' (the connection >with the Sword is that sometimes shopping for exactly the right widget can >turn into a personal quest... Laurence understands soul-wrenching personal >quests and one of his Mercurians has slipped this one past him :) ). > >The competition specifically says nothing about whether angels can ask >their friends to help. Its assumed that both Destiny and Trade will do >this, but the Sword will decide to quest alone. > >-- > >The competition involves each of the archangels or a representative thereof >deciding on one item, or type of item, to add to the shopping list. The >candidates are then each given a relic platinum card made out for them by >the chairangel of the Bank of Heaven (one of Marc's finest) which will be >accepted at any mortal bank or shop. They have a week to go out and impress >the seraphim council by their inspired impulse shopping purchases! May the >best angel win. > >Expect fireworks as the angels and associates dash round sales, markets, >department shops, duty free, museums and auction houses to compete against >each other, demonic elements and frantic mortals and secure the best deals. > >Surely even the cruellest GM wouldn't be mean enough to distract them >further with mortals whose lives need to be sorted out, international drug >smuggling gangs and demons offloading cuonterfeit currency ... would she? > > > >jo > >NB. Circumstances around this one are that I was asked if I could run a >'very girlie' game for a group of female friends and we were discussing >ideas. This was the one which made everyone's eyes light up as they fell >about laughing, then immediately started to design characters ;-) > >I think it could be fun. If anyone is feeling inspired/ helpful I could >really use ideas for what types of items each of the archangels would add >to the shopping list (Eli's representative acts as proxy for the archangel >of creation and writes, right at the bottom of the list, 'And something >really cool.' -- that was the only one I had decided!) I'll bite. Blandine: A music box. David: Any crystalware. Dominic: A parlimentary guide or a law book. Eli: As Above. Gabriel: A hot new fashion statement. Janus: Something really, really different. Jean: The best technical toy you can find. Jordi: I don't care, BUT NOT A FUR. Laurence: A weapon. Marc: Something that's worth much more than you paid for it. Michael: Something that you had to beat someone else to purchase. (i.e., the last beanie baby (tm) in a toy store full of anxious mothers...) Novalis: Something... green! Yves: A gift for yourself. >-- >Jo's (desperately out of date) homepage --> >http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~jhart/index.html >Jo's (bland, plagiarised and devoid of ideas) IN page --> >http://www.btinternet.com/~jhart/IN.html >-- > ** Some of the above is indubitably true ** > Mark (hope you like the list...) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 13:55:26 -0700 From: Stephen Gingell Subject: Re: IN> The ruling in Michael's trial gantr@NKU.EDU wrote: > I think Michael, as a Seraph with the Word of War, represents (among other > things) the ugly truth of war. It is brutal and nasty, and no > sugar-coating will change that. Michael has to confront the reality of > what he is doing, every time he excercises his Word. He canot hide from > the truth that people will die (soldiers and civilians alike), lives will > be shattered, and hopes and dreams will be destroyed. > > Laurence represents the idealized concept of warfare. Knightly conduct, > honor and respect between combatants, discipline and self-sacrifice, > heroism, all the good stuff. > Beautifully said, I'd always been a bit fuzzy on what precisely was meant by War in this context. But that clears it up wonderfully. - -Stephen ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 23:40:33 +0200 (CEST) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Plot Seed -- Shopping for Heaven! My take: Blandine: A stuffed toy that a child would take comfort from. David: A statuette made from stone. Dominic: A book of proverbs. Character-building proverbs. Eli: Paints, or crayons, or a musical instrument. Gabriel: Something that would inspire a poem. Janus: A vehicle. Or a bomb. Or both. :) Jean: Anything electronic with lots of buttons. Jordi: A pet that can be set free. Laurence: A Bible. Marc: Something that's valuable only because it's rare, like an antique. Michael: Something that will make you more self-reliant. Novalis: Some seeds. Yves: A set of encyclopaedias. (sp?) Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! May you have the knowledge of a sage, and the wisdom of a child. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 23:29:40 From: "CA Smith" Subject: IN> summonable artifacts >>One more thing. You dont find heavily armed people around in Denmark. Not >>all the time anyway? Yet, violence is fun. How do you find shoot-outs? > >Summonable corporeal artifacts (rules are in Liber Reliquarum) are good >for this. They can be "pulled out of the air" only when needed, and >sent back to non-existance immediately after a firefight. > >Lilim, in skin-tight jeans and T-shirt, "No, officer, I don't have a >AK-47 hidden on me. Want to check?" > >Summonable corporeal artifacts cost about 5 points for level/1, if they >take Essence to summon, and 8 points if they can be summoned without >cost. (If I'm remembering the numbers right.... It can also vary with >size, but guns aren't likely to be a problem.) > > >- ---Walter I was under the impression that the summonable feature, summons the artifact, there is no mention of unsummoning it.The Scabbard attunement of Laurence however allows the angel to place weapons into, and pull out of, a kind of "null space" at will Chris Smith Gremlim of Vapula Why do Calabim of Belial think bigger is better? a little snip here, a little snip there... and all hell breeaks loose! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 16:09:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Graveyard Greg Subject: IN> Credits...where was she? Just got The Final Trumpet, and I noticed something... Elizabeth McCoy did some additional material, so where was her name in the credits? I didn't see her name there. Ah, well, I'll give you credit where it's due, Beth! BTW, a review of said product will be arriving soon. Bring a sack lunch--you may need it! :) Graveyard Greg _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Oct 98 18:52:23 CDT From: Michael Nutt Subject: IN> Comments on Max's treatment Richard Gant wrote: >I got the impression that David didn't bother telling anyone. Of course, >several Archangels seem to know about it anyway. Why didn't Judgment come >down on him? For that matter, why was Laurence cool with it? *That* part bugged me about FotM... this has been going on for years, and none of the Archangels have talked to each other saying, "Hey, we're losing badly in L.A. Let's get serious about fighting for this city, OK?" Then again, if *all* your Divine Tethers in the L.A. area are gone, there may not *be* much they can do about it in the short term... and forty years might also be a short period of time for one side to "rule" a city. Kind of like having a bad quarter in a football game, perhaps. >One last thing - why was David able to soul-kill the Fallen demon when he >first showed up to punish Max? Surely she wasn't daft enough to attack >him, and he can't throw the first (fill in attack name here) without >suffering dissonance. What happened? "David's not bound by the same rules that he puts on his Servitors" is the explanation that immediately comes to mind. I think we can assume this to be a general rule for Superiors, although I think their behavior ought to *reflect* these ideas that seem so important to them. I doubt Gabriel spends her time swatting the cruel, for instance, and who, short of God, could give Laurence any orders to follow? Michael "I know the old saw about 'You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink'... but I believe you can hold the horse's head underwater and make him think about it for a while." -- Dr. Jane Walters, my high school principal ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 08:52:16 -0400 From: dahak Subject: Re: IN> The ruling in Michael's trial Or since Michael has always been the unpleasant face of the war How about DP of Terror [which fits in with how most angels are going to feel having to face him] Adam Canning dahak@compuserve.com "I'm watching you back." The Void. - -----Original Message----- From: INTERNET:in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sent: 16 October 1998 17:48 To: INTERNET:in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #979 A better choice, IMO, would be Demon Prince of Battle - the more bloodthirsty, pagan version of War. Promotes that Baal/Michael dichotomy, too. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 08:52:19 -0400 From: dahak Subject: IN> IN- In Nomine: Paranoia But malice spoils ones Judgement and Dominic[que] is AA of Judgement. Even the trial of Michael can be seen as something that had to be done for its end results [God's declaration that winning the war can be more important than maintaining perfect purity of thought], not necessarily for the implied purpose[Stuffing Michael]. It may also be that there are deeper levels of purpose behind this that the AA of Judgement can spot that most of the other AAs can't. Adam Canning dahak@compuserve.com "I'm watching you back." The Void. - -----Original Message----- From: INTERNET:in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sent: 16 October 1998 17:48 To: INTERNET:in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #979 Malice? I think Dominic is pretty good at that. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 10:42:26 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: IN> Michael, Demon Prince of ? On Sun, 18 Oct 1998, dahak wrote: > Or since Michael has always been the unpleasant face of the war How about > DP of Terror [which fits in with how most angels are going to feel having > to face him] Demon Prince of Atrocity. Horrifying crimes of every kind and nature, with a particular emphasis on war crimes. (Of course, I still think Neel's take no the whole possibility was best...) Richard "Mr. Uriel" Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit my web page. The Gaming Ghetto, at In Nomine: The Last Days, at Walking the Planes, at - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 13:10:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Graveyard Greg Subject: IN> The Final Trumpet: My opinion OK, as threatened, a review on the Final Trumpet. The Superiors: Good job by GR Cogman and David Edlestien! I like Baal's writeup, especially on his attitude with Michael. Seeing Khalid was worth the wait. Fascinating writeup, and the art for the alternate Khalid was chilling! ;) Magog: HORRID! At least the art for it, and I even liked it! ;) Hope I never meet THAT Demon Prince in an alley... As for the adventure itself? I'll just sum it up in a few words or less. I enjoyed reading it. One of the better adventures in the Revelations cycle. As for the fiction, The Final Trumpet ran shivers down my spine. I loved it! People, if you can do better than this, then you will always have a fan in me, because this was worth the money I spent... Final Grade: A- (the artwork could've been better, and you left out McCoy from the writing credits. Otherwise, it would have been an A) IN 4Ever! Graveyard Greg _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #981 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.