From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Oct 20 23:40:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA14956 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 23:40:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id XAA32541 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 23:23:08 -0500 Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 23:23:08 -0500 Message-Id: <199810210423.XAA32541@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #986 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, October 20 1998 Volume 01 : Number 986 In this digest: Re: IN> Playtesting (Re: Constructive Criticism) Re: IN> Re: Constructive Criticism (Where's the Religion!) Re: IN> Adventure Concepts Re: IN> Adventure Concepts Re: IN> Jews in In Nomine Re: IN> Balseraph (was Re: IN> The ruling in Michael's trial) Re: IN> Jews in In Nomine Re: IN> Adventure Concepts IN> Baal's Immortality Re: IN> Jews in In Nomine Re: IN> Adventure Concepts RE: IN> Jews in In Nomine Re: IN> The First Malakim IN> Second Celestial Pimpernel play up IN> Hello, world. IN> Constructive Criticism Re: IN> Constructive Criticism IN> Re: IN- Mortals using Songs Re: IN> In Nomine: Paranoia IN> Re: IN- The ruling in Michael's trial IN> Top Attorneys On Retainer Re: IN> Top Attorneys On Retainer Re: IN> The First Malakim IN> Top Attorneys On Retainer Re: IN> Top Attorneys On Retainer IN> Re: IN- Top Attorneys On Retainer ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:40:42 -0500 From: Eeyore Subject: Re: IN> Playtesting (Re: Constructive Criticism) Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > As a note -- playtesting does *not* require that the playtesters actually > run a game using the materials. That's *gravy*. What playtesting entails > is reading it, thinking about how you'd break it as a player, and what > you'd want to know as a GM that isn't clear. Or if you hate the mechanics > as both player and GM. Unfortunately, this does require that I have played the game at all, even if I don't use these particular rules. As things stand, I looked through the playtest stuff for the song book and I couldn't tell you whether any particular item is balanced gamewise, or how I'd use it as a player or GM. I just don't know. I looked through it for ideas to put into fiction, which has rather different requirements than gaming. Products like the song or tether book, that are heavy on game mechanics, are a lot less easy to just look at from the outside and spot problems. J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Oct 98 14:40 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Re: Constructive Criticism (Where's the Religion!) > True, IN prefers simplicity. If you want more realism, just add >it. It is much easier to add on to a simple mechanic than it is to >dissect a complicated one. Actually, I'll take issue with this -- it's been my experience that it's hard to convert *either way* between a "realistic" system and a "cinematic" one. Incrementally adding realism to a game system that's not designed for it isn't really feasible using half-way measures -- realism in one place will simply raise questions of unreasonable effects in others. The best approach in such cases is to chuck the whole mechanics system and start over, building around the background material. GURPS In Nomine will probably have to do just that. > When does SJG plan to release a Tether or Song book? What exactly >IS their IN release schedule? The "New Releases" web page shows the Songbook (Liber Canticorum) as a December release, and as far as I know, it should be more or less on track for that since it's in final production now. The Tethers book just left playtest and went into layout recently. It's not yet listed on the New Releases web page, but I'd guess January or February as the street release date. > Is McCoy the current line editor? I guess she is the one we >should be airing our comments to. Yes, and she reads this list... ah... religiously. So she's hearing all this. As are several of the current free-lance writers. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:57:33 -0500 From: Eeyore Subject: Re: IN> Adventure Concepts Walter Milliken wrote: > I'd agree with that, but take it a step further. (Elizabeth and I were > discussing this a lot last night, so I'm about to dump a lot of my > thinking on the problem....) I think even the notion of plots that are > simply "angelic" or "demonic" doesn't necessarily work -- the interests > of different Superiors, and to a lesser extent, the wide-ranging > abilities of different Choirs/Bands, make it hard to write a "tight" > adventure scenario. Agreed, but in the first go, I was only going to suggest more moderate changes... > The original Ars Magica introduced a variant of 4), a notion I've always > found intriguing, but never tried in a campaign. This approach also > combines well with 3), making many more of the plots useful. The > downside to this one appears to be selling the players on playing > multiple character concepts, and on slower individual character > advancement. This is clearly a hard sell to munchkin types, but I'm not > sure that matters much to the IN audience. I'd be particularly > interested in hearing if anyone's tried this routinely, either in IN or > another game. Not just the original Ars Magica; it's still a part of the game. Each player has both a magus and a companion, who usually isn't magical, but there are some approximations. It's a system that really works well. We also use it in some of the Champions games we play. That's another system where certain plots need specific characters kept out. For instance, never try to run a mystery with a powerful mentalist in the group. I like this approach a lot, but I'm known as Mr. Subplot. Having three characters (four, if you count both Siamese Twins) allows me to have three times as many dangling threads that have nothing to do with the main adventure. Even our munchkin liked it; he got to rape the rules in three different ways. I've also used it in Call of Cthulhu, where the problem isn't inappropriate abilities, but that at any given time half the characters are rebuilding their sanity. Slowed character advancement isn't necessarily a big problem. All that's needed is a system for rewarding what characters do in their everyday, non-adventuring lives. Ars Magica could again be a model. We find that it's often hard to get our magi out of the house to have an adventure; they are too busy in the lab improving themselves. At any gaming session, a brief time could be spent going over what the characters who aren't involved in the main plotline are doing, advancing a few subplots, and giving out reduced XPs to them. Surely Andrealphus is going to reward you for seducing an entire class of tenth graders, even if their wasn't any opposition or an earth-threatening event involved. J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:06:55 -0500 From: Bob the Dancing Monkey Subject: Re: IN> Adventure Concepts At 01:57 PM 10/20/98 -0500, Eeyore wrote: >Walter Milliken wrote: >> The original Ars Magica introduced a variant of 4), a notion I've always >> found intriguing, but never tried in a campaign. This approach also >> combines well with 3), making many more of the plots useful. The >> downside to this one appears to be selling the players on playing >> multiple character concepts, and on slower individual character >> advancement. This is clearly a hard sell to munchkin types, but I'm not >> sure that matters much to the IN audience. I'd be particularly >> interested in hearing if anyone's tried this routinely, either in IN or >> another game. > Actually, I've always thought that the ArM ensemble mechanic would make for a fabulous way to play Feng Shui once players ae comfortable to the world - that is, flesh out the Dragons as a large group of ass-kickers and supporters. It would lend itself to a more American spy serial way of playing than the HK groove, but it could be damn fun nonetheless. We now return you to the Celestials... [O] Drew Johnson - CLA - Office of Info Tech [O] x5-4885 - http://www.econ.umn.edu/~djohnson/ [O] djohnson@cla.umn.edu - ICQ: 10800645 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 15:05:07 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Jews in In Nomine Matthew Stein wrote: > (Can you imagine the disturbances in the Symphony when the Seraph > returned to Earth as Jesus again?) I'll say! That return *is* supposed to be at Doomsday, in Christian theology. > a counter-balance to the Christians (not really fans of knowledge, > having papal ineffability) That's "infallibility," and the doctrine was only declared an essential part of the Catholic faith in the early 20th century, if I recall correctly. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 20:37:35 +0100 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Balseraph (was Re: IN> The ruling in Michael's trial) On Tue, Oct 20, 1998 at 01:08:18PM -0400, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >So what happens if a Balseraph's resonance changes the Symphony to such an > >extent that what the Balseraph has claimed is true? I mean is there a > >backlash for a Balseraph telling the truth, whether he made it so or not? > > Nope. > In fact, altering the Symphony to fit the Balseraph's reality can cure a Balseraph's dissonance. (As can altering its own Symphony in order to eliminate inconsistency.) The more closely a Balseraph's Symphony adheres to popular versions of the Truth, the safer they are. This is why Mage is clearly the produce of a group of Balseraphs. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "We have been fortunate enough to live to a time when virtue, though it does not triumph, is nevertheless not always tormented by attack dogs." Alexander Solzhenitsyn, the Gulag Archipelago. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 20:50:20 +0100 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Jews in In Nomine On Tue, Oct 20, 1998 at 03:05:07PM -0500, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > > (Can you imagine the disturbances in the Symphony when the Seraph > > returned to Earth as Jesus again?) > > I'll say! That return *is* supposed to be at Doomsday, in Christian > theology. > I think he's referring to the apparitions of Jesus after the crucifixion, such as his appearance before Doubting Thomas and the other lads. (Incidentally, one presumes the Celestial Song of Sleep was used, because he seems to have spent only a day in Trauma.) > > a counter-balance to the Christians (not really fans of knowledge, > > having papal ineffability) > > That's "infallibility," Indeed. Popes are rarely ineffable. and the doctrine was only declared an essential > part of the Catholic faith in the early 20th century, if I recall > correctly. > I was under the impression that it was made official in the 1st Vatican Council, back in the 19th Century. At any rate, it has hardly had a major impact. Even the issue of abortion, which is probably the least contentious aspect of Catholic doctrine that's well known, hasn't received the imprimatur of infallibility. (Yes, I think it gets much more support from the laity than, say, the opposition to divorce, contraception, in-vitro fertilisation, married clergy, unjust war, and extreme capitalism.) Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "We have been fortunate enough to live to a time when virtue, though it does not triumph, is nevertheless not always tormented by attack dogs." Alexander Solzhenitsyn, the Gulag Archipelago. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Oct 98 15:54 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Adventure Concepts [J. Michael Neal, on multiple characters/player/campaign:] >Not just the original Ars Magica; it's still a part of the game. I only picked up the original version (Lion Rampant), back when it came out -- I didn't know if the later versions had changed or not. > Each player >has both a magus and a companion, who usually isn't magical, but there are some >approximations. The original version also had more-or-less disposable fighter-types, as I recall. That part seemed fairly useless, though the companions seemed more likely to be interesting. > It's a system that really works well. We also use it in some >of the Champions games we play. That's another system where certain plots need >specific characters kept out. I'm actually more interested in it as a way of focusing a plot on a particular character type, than on the exclusion problem. I've never found the exclusion problem to be as much trouble, actually. > For instance, never try to run a mystery with a >powerful mentalist in the group. This isn't necessarily a problem -- there's a famous SF story with a telepathic cop trying to bring a murderer to justice. (I think the title is "The Demolished Man", and I vaguely recall the author as being Alfred Bester.) The plot hinges not so much on finding out, but proving it in the right way to bring the murderer to justice. In IN, there's not much problem if the offender is non-human -- you just can bash them and be done with it. But if they're human, that's generally frowned on, at the least, and can cause difficulties with the human authorities. So the plot can be made to hinge on trying to push the human authorities in the right direction to serve justice. (Or whatever cause you're promoting....) >Slowed character advancement isn't necessarily a big problem. All that's >needed is a system for rewarding what characters do in their everyday, >non-adventuring lives. I've done this in GURPS. I'm ambivalent about it as a game mechanism, though. If characters have *too* much downtime, they can advance more from that than from "on-stage" stuff. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 21:33:45 +0100 From: "The Anti-Santa" Subject: IN> Baal's Immortality This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01BDFC71.50C16EC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Gang!! Am I right in thinking that, after The War is over, Baal will cease to = exist? This came up a long time ago, but I can't remember the answer. = Also, if the stronger your Word is promoted, the more powerful you get = (I think), then once the final battle starts, will Baal be unbeatable?? = There's nothing like dragging EVERYONE into your word to promote it. Nagasaki Angel of War... I don't WANT the trouble of my own word (Or at least the = Word of lazyness) - ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01BDFC71.50C16EC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Gang!!
 
Am I right in thinking that, after = The War is=20 over, Baal will cease to exist?  This came up a long time ago, but = I can't=20 remember the answer.  Also, if the stronger your Word is promoted, = the more=20 powerful you get (I think), then once the final battle starts, will Baal = be=20 unbeatable?? There's nothing like dragging EVERYONE into your word to = promote=20 it.
 
Nagasaki
 
Angel of War... I don't WANT the = trouble of my=20 own word (Or at least the Word of lazyness)
- ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01BDFC71.50C16EC0-- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 17:33:55 EDT From: Akumsa@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Jews in In Nomine In a message dated 10/20/98 3:59:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hjalkar@RedBrick.DCU.IE writes: << Indeed. Popes are rarely ineffable. and the doctrine was only declared an essential > part of the Catholic faith in the early 20th century, if I recall > correctly. > I was under the impression that it was made official in the 1st Vatican Council, back in the 19th Century. At any rate, it has hardly had a major impact. Even the issue of abortion, which is probably the least contentious aspect of Catholic doctrine that's well known, hasn't received the imprimatur of infallibility. >> Indeed, as a student of the Catholic faith for 12 years, Papal Infalibility did come about during the first vatican council. Which is why the Cardinal's council takes so long to determine who becomes pope. To my knowlage, Papal Infallibility has only been invoked 2 times: Once to determine that Peter was the first pope, the second time was to proclaim Mary was born without sin. These both of course bring up a good In Nomine question: If Papal Infallibility was invoked, how does it effect the angels? More to the point, as an adventure: What if the angels were to discover that someting papal infalibility invoked as an undeniable truth was actually false? And on the reverse, what if Demons were supposed to create something or make sure something is declared as Infallible? (eeek!) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 16:51:02 -0500 From: Eeyore Subject: Re: IN> Adventure Concepts Walter Milliken wrote: > The original version also had more-or-less disposable fighter-types, as > I recall. That part seemed fairly useless, though the companions seemed > more likely to be interesting. Grogs. Though they're a lot more than just fighter-types. They also grow your grain, milk your cows, keep your accounts and so on. In practice, they tend to be more like NPCs. And for us, they aren't disposable. Our covenant's companions include a wealthy merchant, a story-teller, an arthritic old man with prophetic visions and a semi-psychotic thief/cheesemaker. The grogs are the only butt-kickers we have. > This isn't necessarily a problem -- there's a famous SF story with a > telepathic cop trying to bring a murderer to justice. (I think the > title is "The Demolished Man", and I vaguely recall the author as being > Alfred Bester.) The plot hinges not so much on finding out, but proving > it in the right way to bring the murderer to justice. I'm trying to add some of this now that I'm GMing, but Champions for us has mostly consisted of finding the right guy and beating him up in the middle of one of his plots. > I've done this in GURPS. I'm ambivalent about it as a game mechanism, > though. If characters have *too* much downtime, they can advance more > from that than from "on-stage" stuff. For Champions, I'm talking maybe one point a night. But if this is a concern, don't try Ars Magica. It's quite up front about the fact that all magi and some companions, depending on what they're studying, advance more through off-stage stuff. It's one of the things I really like about the game. You adventure mostly to either thwart dangers or on a quest for something. You learn magic by reading books and doing experiments. But I grew up in an academic household, and this wouldn't be the first time I've had odd notions about things. J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 18:11:53 -0400 From: "Matthew Stein" Subject: RE: IN> Jews in In Nomine >> > a counter-balance to the Christians (not really fans of knowledge, >> > having papal ineffability) >> >> That's "infallibility," > >Indeed. Popes are rarely ineffable. > >>and the doctrine was only declared an essential >> part of the Catholic faith in the early 20th century, if I recall >> correctly. (Okay, fine, I can't spell.) All that I meant by the "papal infallibility" comment wasn't the direct doctrine, but rather the concept of "hears the voice of God." As far as I'm concerned, with the rise of Rabbinical Judaism, no one pretended to hear the voice of God (well, except for a couple guys, but they also thought that they were the prophesied Messiah) - if someone did, they kept their mouths shut about it. Never in the history of Catholicism did someone write a treatise on the nature of God that noted that severely criticized God, yet in the Talmud and later Judaic works, it happened on a regular basis (viz. the story I noted earlier and Moses Maimonedes). My point - if I recall it - is just trying to lend an IN-ish history to the Jews. I doubt, over all, that many demons were involved in the fall of the Jews, so to speak, from favored children to the hated of Uriel and Lawrence. Of course, it is entirely possible that Malphas got involved somehow, hence creating the factions of Judaism that existed at the time, making there various sects of apocalyptic Jews, "normal" Jews, "secular" Jews (as far as the term can be applied in those days). But if that's true, then one has to ask if Jesus himself wasn't a Balseraph of some type, since any good Faction demon must have known that sending someone to earth who claimed to be the Son of God, the Messiah, etc, would create yet more factions, and maybe the Angels just took advantage of the chaos to get a hold of the Roman Empire and thus gain more power for good (by giving the Angels control of what was once the control of rogue pagan deities). Still, I doubt that Christianity was the results of a Demonic plot; I much prefer Anne Rice's idea that Jesus was just God testing Lucifer at his word (the fifth book of the Vampire Chronicles, I forget the name). Matt. [Angel of Weird Ideas, servant of Eli, kind of kicking it for now.] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 10:04:21 -0400 From: John Karakash - Lucent ASCC Subject: Re: IN> The First Malakim David Edelstein wrote: > > >>>So basically, the angels who turned into Malakim felt so strongly about > the Fall that they were will to submit to basic suicide of personality > to reshape themselves into God's New Tool?<<< > > That's one way to look at it. But as I said in an earlier post, it's not > been established whether the first Malakim transformed consciously, or if > it was an unconscious impulse that affected some angels and not others. I > tend to see them as the most outraged and vengeful of the Host -- the > angels that (for better or for worse) didn't even question for an instant > who was right but just roared "How DARE you defy God Himself?!" and in that > instant, were swept up in a wave of righteous fury that altered them at a > fundamental level. Maybe it was a spontaneous phenomenon, maybe it was > God's way of choosing the vanguard for the new army He'd need. > > This is probably an issue that can be safely left as Canon Doubt & > Uncertainty. ;) Depending on how deep one wants to go, it could be said that they were _already_ Malakim, but it took the first Fall to bring it out of them. ;) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)388-2665(COOL) MIB2300 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 00:22:59 +0100 (BST) From: maya@tcp.co.uk (GR Cogman) Subject: IN> Second Celestial Pimpernel play up In homage to Jo's _Celestial Pimpernel_ play, and with some help from her on the plotting (turn and turn about) there is now a new bit of weirdness - a sequel to _The Celestial Pimpernel_ - up on my In Nomine page. http://homepages.tcp.co.uk/~maya/nomine/french.html (But be sure to read Jo's first, on http://www.btinternet.com/~jhart/IN_french.html) One person, after reading mine, commented that I needed a good long stay behind padded walls. Don't say you weren't warned. - --- Maya, Elohite of Eli in service to Blandine maya@tcp.co.uk - -- "There are those who say that wizards are subject to temptations and addictions beyond the understanding of ordinary men: the addiction to shape-changing, or to meditation under the influence of certain herbs and conditions of the stars; the obsession with knowledge, and the development of power. Yet this is not so. Temptation is temptation, obsession is obsession, and choice is choice." - Isar Chelladan, Precepts of Wizardry. -- "Dog Wizard", Barbara Hambly. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 17:42:08 -0500 From: "Mischa Krilov" Subject: IN> Hello, world. Hi- I'm obviously new to the list, and I just wanted to stick my neck out for scrutiny before going back to semi-lurking. I've had the main book for some years now, but I haven't really had any players until the last few months. We run a mixed party (including a Soldier of Hell), slowly establishing our celestial New Orleans. If anyone's in the area, drop me a line- I'm the only one who runs, so I'd like a chance to play at some point. I'm sure my opinion will make itself known from time to time, but for now I'll lurk some more. Me. __________________________________________________________________ "Truth is beautiful, without doubt; but so are lies." -R. W. Emerson ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 21:19:03 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Constructive Criticism Well, for what it's worth (stand back, prepare for a shock), I tend to agree with most of Dresner's latest rant. She's correct that the Revelations cycle started with a really cool idea that went off in multiple conflicting directions once it was parcelled out to various authors who (a) weren't part of the decision-making and commentary process from the beginning and (b) weren't corralled into adhering to a single consistent viewpoint (the fact that there were two Line Editors and a chaotic interregnum between them in the middle of the cycle didn't help). Yes, playtesting of the Revelations cycle would probably have prevented a lot of the gaping holes that emerged. For that matter, if so much of the adventures hadn't been written so late in the process that even other In Nomine writers didn't get much opportunity to read and comment on them, there might have been improvements. Walter pointed out very accurately though that the RPG business just doesn't allow as much playtesting and quality control as everyone would like. SJG is probably one of the best in the business when it comes to quality control, but SJG, like everyone else in the business, is fighting for its survival right now, and in danger of hemorraghing cash if they can't get stuff out the door. If it's a choice between flawed product and no product...well, you do the math. As editor and the guy who ran the playtest for the Songbook, I was under great pressure to finish it up, and while I take pride in my work and think I did a decent job, I certainly would have liked more time. If I'd had one more week, I think the LC would have been even better. If I'd had another month, I think it would have been close to perfect (from my own personal viewpoint). But that time was not available. The playtest was shorter than I wanted (and shorter than I expected), and my ability to make significant additions or changes was severely constrained. I understand and accept that. It's a pity, but most writers and editors could probably fiddle endlessly with their books, constantly making changes and improvements. At a certain point, you have to get it out the door. I think the Songbook will be good. (The Liber Reliquarum so far has the least errata of all In Nomine books, I believe, and the errata that have come up have been minor. ) But could it have been better? Sure, if I'd had the luxury to take as much time as I wanted to "perfect" it. - -David (who already knows what parts of the LC Dresner is going to rant about ;)) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 02:33:58 +0100 From: Julian Breen Subject: Re: IN> Constructive Criticism In message , Walter Milliken writes >Once SJGames started the Revelations Cycle, they were pretty much >committed to finishing it. Whether they choose to continue the cycle >model, or find a different one for packaging the various components of >the game (background, rules, adventures, etc.) is a marketing decision. > '...find a different one...' ? Hmmm... >I know changes are being considered, but what will ultimately happen is >up to SJ, and to a fairly large extent, the IN audience *if* they make >their opinions known. It might help if people here expressed opinions >on what they *wanted* to see -- better yet, would *buy*, since that's >what drives these sorts of decisions. > >It *is* useful to know what is keeping new players out of the game, >though -- Is this the truth then? Has market research indicated that new players are not biting? >to continue for a long time, a game needs to either draw in >new players constantly, or be able to put out an endless series of >supplements that will sell well to the existing audience. Hence this proposed GURPS conversion I suspect. (Incidentally, where _is_ word of this on the SJG website?) Would such a conversion mean the discontinuation of IN itself? - -- Julian jules@bigjules.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 21:07:00 EST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Mortals using Songs >From: Walter Milliken >Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Re: IN- Re: IN- Mortals using Songs [au sujet of Songs and Attunements] >>The special attunement? I don't recall seeing anything about >>attunements for soldiers, except for Sorcerors. Is this something in >>Night Music (which I don't have...) ? > >No, it's in Songbook (Liber Canticorum) as part of the expanded >explanations of Song mechanics. So you wouldn't have seen it yet unless >you were one of the Songbook playtesters. Oh, okay. - -Perry, Ball of Wax serving Eli and sometimes Tanniael, Archangel of Tea Perry M. Lloyd (spook_number_six@hotmail.com) "Remember, false hope is still hope." -Dilbert ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 21:10:26 EST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine: Paranoia >From: MarkDEddy@aol.com >Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- In Nomine: Paranoia (was: Mortals using Songs) >>Mark off another Vessel, citizen. >:) >>That reminds me, anyone doing In Nomine: Paranoia? >Only vaguely. I use the Paranoia combat system for my (mostly serious) In >Nomine game. I'd ask what the combat rules are like, but I'm afraid of losing another vessel... - -Perry Perry M. Lloyd (spook_number_six@hotmail.com) "Remember, false hope is still hope." -Dilbert ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 21:47:53 EST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: IN> Re: IN- The ruling in Michael's trial >From: Earl Wajenberg > >I think Neel ht it on the head. If Michael fell, he would >displace Lucifer ... unless Lucifer could rally enough >Princes to his side to annihilate Michael. Since he'd very >likely lose a few Princes in the process, their enthusiasm >might be damped... > >Earl Well, I don't know. I mean, yeah, Michael bested Lucifer once before, but back then Luci was just another AA. Lucifer has grown in power since then. He now has the RAW POWER to Lord over Demon Princes, which are considered to be the equal of Archangels I believe, including Michael. It's an interesting concept, that of Mike coming down and beating Lucy's ass for a second time, but... within the local canon reality, I don't see it happening. And, on a side note, I believe that a lot of Michael's power comes from his Word - War. If he fell, he'd lose his Word, and with it, a significant portion of his power. Lucifer vs. a fallen Michael? IMC, no contest, Lucifer'd clean Michael's clock. - -Perry, Kyriotate of Flowers bordering on Insanity... hey, I just got out of a class called Serious Mental Illness, what do you expect? Oooohh, that'd be neat, a Kyriotate Angel of Insanity... probably would serve... uhh... Perry M. Lloyd (spook_number_six@hotmail.com) "Remember, false hope is still hope." -Dilbert ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Oct 98 21:55:44 EST From: owner-in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Subject: IN> Top Attorneys On Retainer Top Attorneys On Retainer Question: Did you know you can have top notch, expensive attorneys on retainer for only pennies a day? But, you ask, "Why should I have top attorney firms on retainer?" Answer: Because attorneys SAVE you money. Yes, if you use them, it's true in the long run, because you make better decisions. Wealthy people know this !! Answer: Because attorneys help keep you out of trouble. Doing what you think is right might still not be in legal compliance. If you're in a service industry you know exactly what I mean. Answer: Because attorneys help put pressure on the other guys.' Just having them know you have an attorney makes them think twice !! Answer: Because attorneys get you the attention you deserve. Just like the wealthy, you'll be top of someones list if they know you have an attorney on hand. Answer: Because you can say, I'll be talking to my attorney about this'...and mean it. No more bluffing !! Answer: Because they can say, Expect to hear from my attorney about this'...and mean it. NO MORE BLUFFING !! Find out how, and our "SPECIAL LIMITED TIME FREE OFFER" at http://www.astorg.net/service1.html To Unsubscribe: Send email with the word Unsubscribe' in the subject to astorg@hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 23:30:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> Top Attorneys On Retainer On Tue, 20 Oct 1998 owner-in_nomine-l@lists.io.com wrote: > Top Attorneys On Retainer > > Question: Did you know you can have top notch, expensive attorneys on retainer for only pennies a day? Working for Marc has its advantages, I see. > But, you ask, "Why should I have top attorney firms on retainer?" Especially when Hell seems to have a monopoly on lawyers? > Answer: Because attorneys SAVE you money. Yes, if you use them, it's true in the long run, because you make better decisions. Wealthy people know this !! Listen to the nice Balseraph of Greed. He has only your best interests at heart. No, really.... > Answer: Because attorneys help keep you out of trouble. Doing what you think is right might still not be in legal compliance. If you're in a service industry you know exactly what I mean. We can thank the Game for that. > Answer: Because attorneys help put pressure on the other guys.' Just having them know you have an attorney makes them think twice !! Dominic's Triads have been doing this for centuries. Can -your- attourneys summon a flaming sword to strike down the guilty for a cost of 7 Essence? I think not. > Answer: Because attorneys get you the attention you deserve. Just like the wealthy, you'll be top of someones list if they know you have an attorney on hand. Unfortunately, that list will belong to Asmodeus. > Answer: Because you can say, I'll be talking to my attorney about this'...and mean it. No more bluffing !! Good for getting past those annoying Seraphim. > Answer: Because they can say, Expect to hear from my attorney about this'...and mean it. NO MORE BLUFFING !! Ah-hah! I have you now! No demon can speak the same lie three times when bound by a ritual of summoning! > Find out how, and our "SPECIAL LIMITED TIME FREE OFFER" at http://www.astorg.net/service1.html Yep, you were lying. DIE, HELLSPAWN! *SMITESMITESMITESMITESMITE* Okay, I'm in a strange mood. Hopefully someone else found this humorous. ;) - -- Casca, Seraph of Archives (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 05:32:49 +0200 (CEST) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> The First Malakim On Tue, 20 Oct 1998, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: > Depending on how deep one wants to go, it could be said > that they were _already_ Malakim, but it took the first Fall to > bring it out of them. ;) So, they were in the closet before the Fall? :) Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! May you have the knowledge of a sage, and the wisdom of a child. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Oct 98 22:01:29 EST From: owner-in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Subject: IN> Top Attorneys On Retainer Top Attorneys On Retainer Question: Did you know you can have top notch, expensive attorneys on retainer for only pennies a day? But, you ask, "Why should I have top attorney firms on retainer?" Answer: Because attorneys SAVE you money. Yes, if you use them, it's true in the long run, because you make better decisions. Wealthy people know this !! Answer: Because attorneys help keep you out of trouble. Doing what you think is right might still not be in legal compliance. If you're in a service industry you know exactly what I mean. Answer: Because attorneys help put pressure on the other guys.' Just having them know you have an attorney makes them think twice !! Answer: Because attorneys get you the attention you deserve. Just like the wealthy, you'll be top of someones list if they know you have an attorney on hand. Answer: Because you can say, I'll be talking to my attorney about this'...and mean it. No more bluffing !! Answer: Because they can say, Expect to hear from my attorney about this'...and mean it. NO MORE BLUFFING !! Find out how, and our "SPECIAL LIMITED TIME FREE OFFER" at http://www.astorg.net/service1.html To Unsubscribe: Send email with the word Unsubscribe' in the subject to astorg@hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 23:15:00 EST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Top Attorneys On Retainer >To: success@nowhere.com >Date: Tue, 20 Oct 98 21:55:44 EST >Subject: IN> Top Attorneys On Retainer > >Top Attorneys On Retainer > >Question: Did you know you can have top notch, expensive attorneys on retainer for only pennies a day? What the hell what that? >Find out how, and our "SPECIAL LIMITED TIME FREE OFFER" at http://www.astorg.net/service1.html > > To Unsubscribe: >Send email with the word Unsubscribe' in the subject to astorg@hotmail.com AHHHHH!!! Stupid Nybbass... I hate that. - -Perry, Krti Fail Perry M. Lloyd (spook_number_six@hotmail.com) "Remember, false hope is still hope." -Dilbert ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 23:20:01 EST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Top Attorneys On Retainer >Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 23:30:20 -0400 (EDT) >From: Casca > >On Tue, 20 Oct 1998 owner-in_nomine-l@lists.io.com wrote: > >> Top Attorneys On Retainer >> >> Question: Did you know you can have top notch, expensive attorneys on retainer for only pennies a day? > >Working for Marc has its advantages, I see. Or Lilith... >> But, you ask, "Why should I have top attorney firms on retainer?" > >Especially when Hell seems to have a monopoly on lawyers? But only because we kill them... >> Answer: Because attorneys SAVE you money. Yes, if you use them, it's true in the long run, because you make better decisions. Wealthy people know this !! > >Listen to the nice Balseraph of Greed. He has only your best interests at >heart. No, really.... :) >> Answer: Because attorneys help keep you out of trouble. Doing what you think is right might still not be in legal compliance. If you're in a service industry you know exactly what I mean. > >We can thank the Game for that. Yiurg... >> Answer: Because attorneys help put pressure on the other guys.' Just having them know you have an attorney makes them think twice !! > >Dominic's Triads have been doing this for centuries. Can -your- attourneys >summon a flaming sword to strike down the guilty for a cost of 7 Essence? >I think not. LOL!!! >> Answer: Because attorneys get you the attention you deserve. Just like the wealthy, you'll be top of someones list if they know you have an attorney on hand. > >Unfortunately, that list will belong to Asmodeus. Good God... >> Answer: Because you can say, I'll be talking to my attorney about this'...and mean it. No more bluffing !! > >Good for getting past those annoying Seraphim. But perhaps not the Elohim. >> Answer: Because they can say, Expect to hear from my attorney about this'...and mean it. NO MORE BLUFFING !! > >Ah-hah! I have you now! No demon can speak the same lie three times when >bound by a ritual of summoning! > >> Find out how, and our "SPECIAL LIMITED TIME FREE OFFER" at http://www.astorg.net/service1.html > >Yep, you were lying. DIE, HELLSPAWN! *SMITESMITESMITESMITESMITE* > > > >Okay, I'm in a strange mood. Hopefully someone else found this humorous. ;) Casca, you kick ass. :) - -Perry, Kyriotate of Flowers serving Creation and sometimes Tanniael, Archangel of Tea Perry M. Lloyd (spook_number_six@hotmail.com) "Remember, false hope is still hope." -Dilbert ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #986 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.