From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Oct 22 08:18:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA00053 for ; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 08:18:08 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id HAA07837 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 07:47:01 -0500 Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 07:47:01 -0500 Message-Id: <199810221247.HAA07837@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #989 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, October 22 1998 Volume 01 : Number 989 In this digest: Re: IN> Adventure Concepts Re: IN> Adventure Concepts Re: IN> The Problems with Khalid IN> The Future of In Nomine Re: IN> The Problems with Khalid IN> Skill improvement Re: IN> On Advancement Re: IN> The Problems with Khalid Re: IN> Re: Constructive Criticism (Where's the Religion!) Re: IN> On Advancement RE: IN> The Future of In Nomine Re: IN> Khalid Re: IN> Khalid Re: IN> Khalid Re: IN> Balseraph (was Re: IN> The ruling in Michael's trial) IN> The Future of In Nomine (was Re:IN> Constructive Criticism) Re: IN> On Advancement IN> The Problems with Khalid IN> Lucifer vs. Michael Re: IN> Lucifer vs. Michael Re: IN> The Future of In Nomine (was Re:IN> Constructive Criticism) IN> Khalid IN> Learning Songs RE: IN> Lucifer vs. Michael Re: IN> The Problems with Khalid Re: IN> Lucifer vs. Michael [sliding off-topic] IN> [Adventure seed] The Excellency of His Wrath ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 16:44:21 -0400 From: neel@cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Subject: Re: IN> Adventure Concepts "Hart, Joanna" wrote: > >To be honest, I can't decide. I rather like the notion that makes celestials >very alien by saying that they don't necessarily learn from experience in >the same way that humans do -- they aren't wired that way. An angel doesn't >think; it just knows. Therefore it doesn't learn; it must be reprogrammed by >its maker. > >But that's possibly unplayable so you're probably right ;) Thomas Aquinas was so obviously writing an RPG supplement in the _Summa Theologica_ that I've actually spent some time trying to figure out how to make his conception of spiritual beings workable for an RPG. His angels were based off the Neoplatonist distinction between reason and intelligence. Reason is what humans do most of the time -- make observations and deductions. Intelligence is the ability to directly apprehend the divine order, sort of like mathematical intuition or the Seraphic resonance. In Aquinas's scheme, all spirits have a direct and immediate perception of the truth, and at the moment of its creation, each spirit would perceive the truth and accept God or rebel against it -- would become an angel or a demon. There's no possibility of an angel falling after creation, or of a demon redeeming: both had a total and full perception of God and accepted or rejected Him immediately and totally. This is obviously fasinating and totally unplayable. But I think we can get most of the flavor by playing each session twice: once to determine the angels' and demons' foreknowledge, and once to figure out what actually happens. This actually sounds like it could be fun, in a very weird and experimental way. It could add a certain extremely stylized and alien dimension to celestial behavior -- both angels and demons would have a pretty good idea of what is going to happen before it actually comes to pass. I think that in the first run through the general course of events will be determined here, and whatever happens here *will* come to pass. So it should be at a high enough level of abstraction that even most conversations and details are glossed over. The whole thing will probably be more like a plotting session among a group of writers than a roleplaying event, so you might want to make sure to insert various kinds of symbolisms and foreshadowing, too. (If you want to be orthodox, then make sure the angels defeat the demons here.) The second time through, the game will actually be played like a regular RPG session, except that all the celestial participants have an idea of what *will* happen, and everything happens as determined in the plotting session. So conversations and interactions between angels and demons will be affected by the fact that both sides know basically what will happen and when. This could lead to some potentially neat bits like a human lackey asking why they don't attack the other angels/demons yet and get frustrating answers like "It has not been so ordained" as an answer. (Demons may want to conceal the fact that all is predetermined from their human servants, of course. :) - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@cswv.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 17:02:58 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Adventure Concepts A very interesting idea especially for a mixed Celestials/Soldiers game. Some PCs are like actors on a script and some aren't. > This could lead to some potentially neat bits like a human > lackey asking why they don't attack the other angels/demons yet and > get frustrating answers like "It has not been so ordained" as an > answer. Or, if you want to use a classic answer written by a comtemporary fan of Aquinas's (Dante Alighieri (sp?)), the reply could be, "So it is willed where what is willed must be." (These are the words Dante had Virgil use to compel the cooperation of demons in hell, in the Inferno.) Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 17:10:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> The Problems with Khalid On Wed, 21 Oct 1998, Matthew D. Gandy wrote: > the In Nomine universe. A quick rewrite of Khalid after he got "better" > following the events in Final Trumpet and started acting like a *real* > Archangel of Faith (rather than the Archangel of Ragheaded Truckbombers > suggested by David Edelstein) would be wonderful. Any takers? I thought you already did a revision on him? One of the players in your online game made mention of it. Or am I confusing you with Hitherby? - -- Casca, Seraph of Archives (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 17:28:51 -0400 From: "Matthew D. Gandy" Subject: IN> The Future of In Nomine In Nomine is a finite game. I hate to say it, but eventually, there will be no new supplements, or no need for them. Eventually, the spring will run dry. Why? Because it is a limited setting, and after certain subjects are covered, anything more will limit the scope of the GM, making the setting more and more static. After a while, it won't be feasible to put out a new IN supplement every few months. GURPS, covering different worlds each time, can go on forever. Don't get me wrong: I love In Nomine, I want to see new material for IN, and I think there is still a lot of ground to cover. But sooner or later, every game runs into the difficulty of needing to put a new supplement out to maintain the business end, and the reasons (or excuses) for such supplements get weaker and weaker. Every once and a while, a game can reinvent itself--look at White Wolf's historical line. Dark Ages was a masterstroke. But it doesn't always work--Wild West bombed, and the whole "Year of the Lotus" has been mismanaged from square one. Will In Nomine find itself in this position? Yep, sure will. Any time soon? Probably not--there is still a hell of a lot of material yet to be covered that *needs* covering, rather than providing an excuse for a new book. The Songbook and Tetherbook will be out in a few months, there is a lot of clamor for a Human Players Guide, people still want information on how to play the Grigori, etc. Lots of angles yet to be explored. But somewhere down the line, that may change (new editions of old books aside). The Cycle books was an interesting experiment in preventing this phenomenon from occuring. The premise being that the IN world would change and evolve each year, as major events occured to stir things up. The problem was involving the PCs. Many complaints have been leveled at the adventures in the Revelations Cycle as not being particularly playable or being adaptations of fiction to skirt the licensing issue. I still think the concept is sound, but not in the way it has been applied heretofore. I would suggest either a book or two a year that chronicles major events in the IN universe, with plot hooks to involve the PCs (but no more), or a magazine-style supplement every few months that hits the highlights. How commercially viable this angle is, I don't know, but the Cycle technique has proven a failure. A Bold New Plan is called for, a Brave New Mission Statement required...if only to keep the Demon of Business Buzzwords happy. :) I look forward to hearing what the Next Step for In Nomine will be... Just some thought, Matthew D. "Demiurge" Gandy "still looking for the face I had before the world was made" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 17:30:22 -0400 From: "Matthew D. Gandy" Subject: Re: IN> The Problems with Khalid Casca wrote: > I thought you already did a revision on him? One of the players in your > online game made mention of it. > > Or am I confusing you with Hitherby? You must be, as I do not currently have an online game, nor I have written a revision. - --Matthew D. "Demiurge" Gandy "still looking for the face I had before the world was made" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Oct 98 17:46 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: IN> Skill improvement >After a session, you make a "learning roll" on each skill >you used successfully. For the learning roll, you want to >roll ABOVE your current level. If you do, you then go up >in the skill by your "learn rate" -- typically 3 to 6 percentage >points, calculated from the attributes that apply to the skill. This is somewhat similar to the Runequest system (I think it is -- whoever it is that did the Ringworld game). The problem with it is the "I think I'll switch weapons now to see if I can get an improvement roll for my Mace skill" syndrome, which Runequest was apparently prone to. Keeping track of which skills were used is also a bit of a pain, though do-able. I just generally handle the problem in GURPS by having the players ask me if they can put earned points into a skill, or I will sometimes suggest that they do so. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Oct 98 17:58 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> On Advancement >Is advancement strictly necessary? Or at least advancement by >rising stats? Are there any successful RPGs where stats are fixed? I seem to recall a number where basic attributes (what I assume you mean by stats) can't normally be improved. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 22:59:41 +0100 (BST) From: maya@tcp.co.uk (GR Cogman) Subject: Re: IN> The Problems with Khalid >Casca wrote >> I thought you already did a revision on him? One of the players in your >> online game made mention of it. >> Or am I confusing you with Hitherby? > > You must be, as I do not currently have an online game, nor I have >written a revision. >--Matthew D. "Demiurge" Gandy >"still looking for the face I had before the world was made" Some confusion here. I run the online game, _Fiat Justitia_, in which Hitherby plays, and Hitherby did indeed do a revision. In that game, as GM, I use the online name _Demiurge_. However, I am not Matthew Gandy, and wasn't aware of his nickname when I started using that online name. ;) Hope that clears it up. - --- Maya, Elohite of Eli in service to Blandine maya@tcp.co.uk - -- "There are those who say that wizards are subject to temptations and addictions beyond the understanding of ordinary men: the addiction to shape-changing, or to meditation under the influence of certain herbs and conditions of the stars; the obsession with knowledge, and the development of power. Yet this is not so. Temptation is temptation, obsession is obsession, and choice is choice." - Isar Chelladan, Precepts of Wizardry. -- "Dog Wizard", Barbara Hambly. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Oct 98 18:04 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Re: Constructive Criticism (Where's the Religion!) >I think publishing some -possible- answers for some of the Areas of Canon >Doubt and Uncertainty would be a nice idea. Not laying down the law, >saying "This is the way it is" but offering some different >possibilities... this would make it easier for GM:s to decide for >themselves how they want things in their campaign. I suppose this could be done, though I'm not sure how important it is to the game, relative to other things that need to be dealt with. >But I guess that would still be too controversial for the American >market... too bad. :( SJ doesn't really mind controversy all that much; I don't think that consideration would necessarily stop such a project. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 18:53:43 -0700 From: Nana Yaw Ofori Subject: Re: IN> On Advancement At 4:35 PM -0500 10/21/98, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >Is advancement strictly necessary? Or at least advancement by >rising stats? Are there any successful RPGs where stats are fixed? [Arg, put the wrong address on the initial version] Well, there's AD&D... Not /completely/ fixed, but extremely difficult to raise, requiring magic items and/or Wishes in most cases. I suppose you might call that successful. \|=) OH, you probably meant all stats and skills and whatnot...Hm. Wasn't the original Traveller like that? This is hearsay, I've never actually /seen/ the original Traveller... - -- Nana Yaw Ofori nofori@pop3.utoledo.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 19:00:55 -0400 From: "Matthew Stein" Subject: RE: IN> The Future of In Nomine > The Cycle books was an interesting experiment in preventing this >phenomenon from occuring. The premise being that the IN world would >change and evolve each year, as major events occured to stir things up. >The problem was involving the PCs. Many complaints have been leveled at >the adventures in the Revelations Cycle as not being particularly >playable or being adaptations of fiction to skirt the licensing issue. I >still think the concept is sound, but not in the way it has been applied >heretofore. I would suggest either a book or two a year that chronicles >major events in the IN universe, with plot hooks to involve the PCs (but >no more), or a magazine-style supplement every few months that hits the >highlights. How commercially viable this angle is, I don't know, but the >Cycle technique has proven a failure. (Admittedly, I've only flipped through the Revelations Cycle, simply because I really can't afford many books and I can't find people to play IN with.) However, I still would like to present my impression of IN's Cycles and how they should be. I think that the basic concept of the Cycles was good - the idea of every year, releasing a series of (five?) books that signified a major change in the way the game world exists. As much pain as this will give me (and I know how much I spent on trying to keep up with the AD&D worlds that I ran games in), I think that TSR had the right idea for how to accomplish it (I mean, honestly - of all the (former?) Forgotten Realms players out there on this list, how many of you would have continued to buy supplements covering smaller and smaller regions, until there was a $25 boxed set on the castle of the King of Cormyr?): release boxed sets with a major story line and a lot of details about it. So maybe next year's Cycle, if SJ Games does this, would have the action take place in ... um ... Moscow, I suppose, and detail the attempts of a certain group of Princes or Archangels to do something. A story, five books of it; maybe $10 or so per book. Each book would contain a chapter or two of the story, adventure hooks for the truly uncreative (as if stories weren't adventure hooks enough, themselves) and some technical information or details (maybe an extended write-up of a choir or a Prince - kind of like the "Complete Guide to X" or White Wolf's single books on a tradition (Mage) or clan (Vampire)). I know that I'd invest. (I got involved in a Mage game a year or so ago, and the GM had to scrap the entire adventure because one of the Mages went Marauder and killed someone key to the entire game; from then on, the adventure was free-formed with certain objectives and NPCs with their own goals.) Come to think of it, that's not a bad idea: a Cycle with each book presenting a story, location, extended write ups, and a few NPCs with full details - not just a paragraph, but a few pages dealing with their motivations, behaviors, practices, speech-patterns, etc. Admittedly, this would bog down a GM who would like to run it, but if you combine plot hooks for the story and the detailed write ups, I think that the GM could have a very successful offshoot adventure on their hands that could be linked together with the full five book Cycle. I think that something like this would work in theory; unfortunately, the real world rarely operates so that SJ Games can role d666 and come up with 111 or 666 and have an instant success on their hands. _______________________________Matt._______________________________ [Angel of Weird Ideas, servant of Eli, kind of kicking it for now.] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 20:00:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Pee Kitty Subject: Re: IN> Khalid On Wed, 21 Oct 1998, Eeyore wrote: > I have a rough draft of the alternative Khalid write-up I said I was going > to do, as well as an alternative Dark Khalid. Next, I plan to do a few > Servitors. I gave different attunements, not because of balance, but I > thought they were more interesting. As the main writeup is long (4 pages in > MSWord, before I start editing), I figure I'd get a nastygram for posting it > straight to the list. I'm planning to put it on a website, but first I have > to learn how to make one. If anyone is interested in seeing it before then, > I'd be happy to mail it to you directly. Actually, four pages in Word is not that long. I don't think anyone would flame you for posting it. If you'd rather not, I'd like an emailed copy if you don't mind. - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! ::: Thinking about a Tampa Bay Devival in the future - email me! ::: Or go to http://www.cris.com/~pkitty (hell, go there anyways!) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 01:49:27 +0100 From: Rhodri James Subject: Re: IN> Khalid In article , Pee Kitty wrote: > Actually, four pages in Word is not that long. I don't think anyone > would flame you for posting it. If you'd rather not, I'd like an emailed > copy if you don't mind. I'd only flame if it was posted as a Word file! - -- Rhodri James *-* Wildebeeste herder to the masses If you don't know who I work for, you can't misattribute my words to them ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 21:25:36 -0400 From: "Matthew D. Gandy" Subject: Re: IN> Khalid Pee Kitty wrote: > Actually, four pages in Word is not that long. I don't think anyone > would flame you for posting it. If you'd rather not, I'd like an emailed > copy if you don't mind. I hate to be a "me too", but I agree four pages ain't that long (assuming it isn't in 6-point Avalon Quest and must be read with a magnifying glass), and I would like an e-mail copy sent to this account. Thanks, Matthew D. "Demiurge" Gandy "still looking for the face I had before the world was made" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 03:50:19 -0500 From: Vz Subject: Re: IN> Balseraph (was Re: IN> The ruling in Michael's trial) >This is why Mage is clearly the produce of a group of Balseraphs. ooohhh, there's an evil thought if I ever heard one. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 02:38:06 +0100 From: Julian Breen Subject: IN> The Future of In Nomine (was Re:IN> Constructive Criticism) Elizabeth replied: >>Would [the GURPS IN] conversion mean the discontinuation of IN itself? > >Definitely not! > Firstly, thanks to both yourself and Walter for replying to my question. However, I am aware of how big a following GURPS has in the 'States, and if GURPS IN is intended to bring this audience into IN itself, then I think it likely that this would have a dramatic effect on the game. If sales go well and such an audience _is_ captured, then the next important thing would probably be how *big* it actually is. If it dramatically outnumbers the current IN one, then SJG will surely consider the notion that the future of the game might fare better under GURPS. Looking at these lists recently, Its obvious that; 1) The Revelations Cycle has not been well received and a new approach is needed. 2) Many people aren't happy with the basic system. Assuming that these lists are going to act as feedback in some regard, it is conceivable that SJG will therefore not only look at the content of future supplements but at mechanics also. *And* If IN does sell to the GURPers then they probably aren't going to want supplements that aren't specifically written for it. When you're used to a system with so many sourcebooks available, why buy one which you have to convert? O.K. Supplements *might* contain two sets of stats (one for IN the other for the GURPS version) but it seems a trifle daft when both games are produced by the same company. Besides, extra sets of stats mean extra space taken up - means less content - means less sales. I've never actually played GURPS myself (just downloaded the Lite version to peruse) but I'll definately be buying GURPS IN when its released. Why? Well, mainly because I have a feeling that it may well work better (for me at least) than the current system. Ironically, wasn't In Nomine originally intended as a GURPS book anyhow? - -- Julian ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 21:52:14 -0400 From: John Karakash - Lucent ASCC Subject: Re: IN> On Advancement Nana Yaw Ofori wrote: > > At 4:35 PM -0500 10/21/98, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > > >Is advancement strictly necessary? Or at least advancement by > >rising stats? Are there any successful RPGs where stats are fixed? > > [Arg, put the wrong address on the initial version] > > Well, there's AD&D... Not /completely/ fixed, but extremely difficult to > raise, requiring magic items and/or Wishes in most cases. I suppose you > might call that successful. \|=) > > OH, you probably meant all stats and skills and whatnot...Hm. Wasn't the > original Traveller like that? This is hearsay, I've never actually /seen/ > the original Traveller... In the original traveller, it was damnably difficult to raise SKILLS, much less stats! The assumption, early on, was that after you made your character, there you were. Well, stats could go down from aging... ;) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)388-2665(COOL) MIB2300 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 21:57:23 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> The Problems with Khalid >>>A quick rewrite of Khalid after he got "better" following the events in Final Trumpet and started acting like a *real* Archangel of Faith (rather than the Archangel of Ragheaded Truckbombers suggested by David Edelstein) would be wonderful. Any takers?<<< Gimme some time.... - -David (but of course this is no way precludes anyone else from doing their own version) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 21:07:07 -0500 From: Vz Subject: IN> Lucifer vs. Michael >Well, I don't know. I mean, yeah, Michael bested Lucifer once before, >but back then Luci was just another AA. Lucifer has grown in power >since then. He now has the RAW POWER to Lord over Demon Princes, which >are considered to be the equal of Archangels I believe, including >Michael. If I remember correctly, been a while since I read the core book (and I am just now getting to sit down and read IPG), alot of Lucifer's power in Hell is in his politicing. EG: convincing everyone to fight amonst themselves and not against him. Giving him a little leisure time to built power and "Evil Plans of Death & Doom" (tm). As to whether Lucifer could beat Michael in a fight, fair or not, we may never know. Perhaps old Luci's got a self-confidence problem when it comes to fighting Michael, and that's why he gave Baal his word. When one has a word as powerful as Michael's and being one of the first creations of God (as was Lucifer before he fell), maybe Lucifer cannot take Michael in an all out "relatively fair" fight (one on one). This brings up questions... When the fall occured, how weakened were the fallen by losing their words? their connection to God? their general power levels? etc? And how powerful are they relatively speaking on a one on one level (AA vs DP) today? Considering the incident with Legion, I would guestimate relatively the same, but at the time Legion was on a HUGE power trip and took out quite a few AA temporarily (trauma) and one permanently (Raphael). ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 00:18:41 +0900 From: Simon Hailes Subject: Re: IN> Lucifer vs. Michael In a nut shell, yes Lucifer can wipe the floor with Michael. Lucifer has grown greatly in power, due to his relative freedom of control in Hell, he can perform Interventions now, something which canon has yet to state Michael can do. And also, if only one of the Archangels had the ability to thwart the most powerful of the demons, then wouldn't the war have ended ages ago? why doesn't Michael then just finish the Son of the Morning off, if he apparently can? The best example I can draw of this is when Obi-Wan :) and darth Vader fought in Star Wars, Obi-Wan won the first fight, but much time had passed, and Vader was stronger, and Obi was weaker, neway, thats all for now. Simon Hailes ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 23:20:36 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> The Future of In Nomine (was Re:IN> Constructive Criticism) At 2:38 AM +0100 10/22/98, Julian Breen wrote: >Elizabeth replied: >>>Would [the GURPS IN] conversion mean the discontinuation of IN itself? >> >>Definitely not! >> >Firstly, thanks to both yourself and Walter for replying to my question. > >However, I am aware of how big a following GURPS has in the 'States, Note that the GURPS following is for a generic system which has several sub-genres. There are people who play GURPS fantasy games, GURPS space, GURPS cyberpunk, GURPS supers, GURPS IOU (plug, plug, only a few copies left last time I looked), GURPS historicals, etc. There are a *lot* of different GURPS books... It's unlikely that GURPS In Nomine could capture *all* that market. (Though if it did, well, hey...) Unless there's something I don't know, the intent is that you convert with your GURPS IN book. (Or possibly back-convert from a GURPS historical book...) Not including the stats for both in the future books. >Ironically, wasn't In Nomine originally intended as a GURPS book anyhow? No -- it was intended to *contain* a GURPS conversion, but it was never intended to be GURPS That I Know Of. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 23:38:01 EDT From: Endlsskid@aol.com Subject: IN> Khalid hello...I just wanted to sat that I too would like a copy of the alternate Khalid...thanx ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 22:43:33 -0500 From: "Mischa Krilov" Subject: IN> Learning Songs I need some input here, listers, and I came into Pyramid after the playtest of Liber Canticorum. What does it take to learn a new Song? Can non-Superiors or non-Wordbound teach it to each other? Obviously, mortals couldn't use a non-Corporeal Song if this were true, but I mean your typical 9/10 Force celestial (read: PC). Must.. buy.. Liber.. Canticorum.. Me. __________________________________________________________________ "Truth is beautiful, without doubt; but so are lies." -R. W. Emerson ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 00:37:11 -0400 From: "Matthew Stein" Subject: RE: IN> Lucifer vs. Michael I think that on balance DPs are less powerful than AAs, if what is Canon about the aggregate level of a demon (7 forces) versus angel (9 forces) can be carried over to the DP:AA ratio. - ---===--- "What do people mean when they say the computer went down on me?" - -- Marilyn Pittman - -----Original Message----- From: owner-in_nomine-l@lists.io.com [mailto:owner-in_nomine-l@lists.io.com]On Behalf Of Vz Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 1998 10:07 PM To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Subject: IN> Lucifer vs. Michael >Well, I don't know. I mean, yeah, Michael bested Lucifer once before, >but back then Luci was just another AA. Lucifer has grown in power >since then. He now has the RAW POWER to Lord over Demon Princes, which >are considered to be the equal of Archangels I believe, including >Michael. If I remember correctly, been a while since I read the core book (and I am just now getting to sit down and read IPG), alot of Lucifer's power in Hell is in his politicing. EG: convincing everyone to fight amonst themselves and not against him. Giving him a little leisure time to built power and "Evil Plans of Death & Doom" (tm). As to whether Lucifer could beat Michael in a fight, fair or not, we may never know. Perhaps old Luci's got a self-confidence problem when it comes to fighting Michael, and that's why he gave Baal his word. When one has a word as powerful as Michael's and being one of the first creations of God (as was Lucifer before he fell), maybe Lucifer cannot take Michael in an all out "relatively fair" fight (one on one). This brings up questions... When the fall occured, how weakened were the fallen by losing their words? their connection to God? their general power levels? etc? And how powerful are they relatively speaking on a one on one level (AA vs DP) today? Considering the incident with Legion, I would guestimate relatively the same, but at the time Legion was on a HUGE power trip and took out quite a few AA temporarily (trauma) and one permanently (Raphael). ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 01:40:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> The Problems with Khalid On Wed, 21 Oct 1998, GR Cogman wrote: > I run the online game, _Fiat Justitia_, in which Hitherby plays, and > Hitherby did indeed do a revision. Ah. How many Geas levels will I owe you for pestering him to post them? - -- Casca, Seraph of Archives (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 10:21:37 +0200 (CEST) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Lucifer vs. Michael [sliding off-topic] On Thu, 22 Oct 1998, Simon Hailes wrote: > The best example I can draw of this is when Obi-Wan > :) and darth Vader fought in Star Wars, Obi-Wan won the first fight, but > much time had passed, and Vader was stronger, and Obi was weaker, neway, > thats all for now. IMO, Obi-Wan -let- Vader kill him. Not win, kill him. I mean, he just raised his lightsaber and closed his eyes. And he did become more powerful afterwards... [frantically searching for a way to get back on topic] Hmmm... So Michael falls, Luci kicks his butt and sends him to... Limbo, right? A Fallen Arch-angel in Limbo... now -that- has potential... *evil grin* Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! May you have the knowledge of a sage, and the wisdom of a child. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 08:47:10 -0400 From: neel@cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Subject: IN> [Adventure seed] The Excellency of His Wrath Okay, a couple of days ago I promised that I would post an example of how I like to see adventures designed. It took a little longer than I expected, because of Net connection problems and because I kept realizing that there was stuff I needed to write down for other people to make any sense of it. But it's done now. This is a short adventure seed for a group of angelic PCs. It is designed as a subthread or passing scene in a larger game, though it can easily work as a focal scenario, if the PCs are in period of relative calm. One comment: for my own game, I altered Gabriel's dissonance condition slightly; an angel of Gabriel may not set aside working towards the punishment of the cruel any longer than 3 days, but can take as long as needed to construct a perfect punishment. This doesn't have a direct impact, but it did affect a few of the stylistic choices. - -*-*-*- "And in the greatness of thine excellency thou hast overthrown them that rose up against thee: thou sentest forth thy wrath, which consumed them as stubble." - -- Exodus 15:7 Sections: 1. The Teaser 2. What's going on 3. Hooking in the PCs 4. Continuations 5. The NPCs 1. The Teaser The small man grabbed hold of the larger man's arms from behind, and pushed him to his knees with a casual grace that suggested he found the big man's strength to be entirely negligible. The big man cursed, and began to twist in the small man's grasp, but he stopped with a jerk when the woman stepped past the small man and into the big man's field of view. The muscles in his arms went tight with the rigidity of terror, and his next words came out in choking gasps. "Oh, no, you're the one -- the one from the dreams! Oh man, oh man oh man...." His voice trailed off, and when the woman knelt in front of him, he turned his face away, towards the narrow brick walls of the alley, so he would not have to look at her. With cool force, the small man shifted his grip; with his left hand he grabbed the big man's shoulder, and with his right he grabbed his prisoner's hair and turned his head to face the woman. For a moment, there was no sound except for the big man's harsh, ragged breaths. Then the woman spoke. "Jered. I am here because you killed Moses Cohen." Her voice was very gentle, and full of love. At the sound of it, the big man began to sob. "It was an accident, I swear, oh please don't kill me!" The woman leaned close to the prisoner, and whispered so softly that the small man had to strain to hear. "It was not. Do not dirty your soul any further, before you go before the great Judge. His law is very clear: 'And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give out life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, foot for foot, burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.'" She extended her hand to touch the man's face, and there was a brilliant flash of light. A moment later, the small man dropped the scraps of cloth in his hands onto the pile of still-smoking ashes and bones in front of him. With a cool and distant approval the small man noted that tears were flowing down the woman's face. He extended a dusty hand to her, and she took it. The two left the alleyway, and the funeral pyre of the dead man. 2. What's Going On. Abner Cohen is a strictly observant Orthodox Jew. A few weeks ago, his son, Moses, was murdered, and the police were unable to track down the killers. In the profound grief that only a parent who has outlived his child can feel, he prayed that his son's killers know the justice of the Lord. His prayers were heard. Jehoash, a Seraph of Fire, and her companion, Zobah, an Elohite of War, were passing through the city when she understood who she was next next to hunt. When Zobah investigated the people Jehoash felt compelled to punish, he discovered that Moses Cohen, and the two angels decided that they had clearly been sent to answer the elder Cohen's prayers. Now, Jehoash and Zobah are now finding Moses Cohen's killers, and killing them one by one. The murderers are a small gang of racist skinheads, ranging in age from their late teens to their early twenties. They had been out drinking when they ran into Moses, and in a drunken stupor they proceeded to beat the young man to death. The fact that one of their number is dying every few days has not escaped them, and they are becoming increasingly paranoid and terrified -- especially since the one who is next to die suffers terrible dreams in the days before they die. Zobah and Jehoash are investigating the dreams of their target before they proceed with each investigation. For all their harshness, they retain a typical angelic kindness: in dreams, they confront each killer with the fact of his crime, and try to get him to repent before he is sent to meet his Maker. 3. Drawing in the PCs There are a number of ways the PCs could be drawn into the scenario. (I'm assuming that they are angels). o They could simply hear the disturbance. Zobah and Jehoash aren't making much of an effort to conceal their actions, and each human who dies at their hands will cause on the order of 15-20 disturbance. o If Zobah and Jehoash can be replaced with a pair of NPC angels familiar to the PCs, then it's entirely possible that they'll simply /tell/ the PCs what they are up to -- they don't see any problems with what they are doing, after all. o It's possible that the PCs will find out through their mortal connections. If that tough homicide cop a PC knows talks about the mysterious burning deaths of known skinheads in the wake of the death of an Orthodox boy, well, it won't take much effort to realize something weird is up. 4. Continuations The PCs' responses to Jehoash and Zobah's mission is quite likely to be quite unpredictable. What happens next is largely dependent on the personalities of the PCs -- their responses may range from horrified disgust to enthusiastic approval. It's possible that the PCs won't feel any impetus to act once they discover what is happening. If they so, don't feel obligated to contrive things to make the PCs get involved. You'll probably get more mileage out of having things that don't involve the PCs going on in your game world, than you will out of forcing the players to accept a story hook they don't want. Any angel who offers to help out Zobah and Jehoash will get a lot of thanks from Jehoash and a lot of instructions from Zobah. Here are some things that could reasonably happen. o The two will ask any particularly persuasive angels, or any with soul-reading abilities (especially Malakim and Destiny angels) to help them with the task of trying to get the killers to repent before they are slain. This is not something Jehoash is at all good at, and Zobah knows his limitations in this regard. A successful conversion isn't going to stop them from executing the killers, though -- they believe that the murder has earned the skinheads the death penalty. o More squeamish angels will be asked to talk to Abner Cohen, and make sure that he comes out okay -- it wouldn't do at all for him to lose his soul when God so obviously values him as to send angels to answer his prayers. o Angels more understanding of human society might want to stage a coverup of what's going on. A series of skinheads burned to death in the wake of the death of a Jewish boy is going to set off some alarms in the minds of any competent homicide detective. Given that Jehoash and Zobah have no human ties, and no apparent connection to their victims, it's going to be real tough for the police to piece anything together. A smart angel won't leave that to chance, though. Zobah isn't stupid, but he hasn't really given much thought to this aspect; once it's necessity is explained, he'll be quite willing to make any reasonable changes in their procedure, if it will help. ("Reasonable" is defined here as "the skinheads still die, preferably at Jehoash's hands.") Jehoash will not be happy at the deception, but will go along grumpily once Zobah explains the necessity. The pair won't suggest this -- this is just not something that shows up on their mental radar. They /are/ prudent enough not to kill in a too-public place, but that's about it. Getting Jehoash and Zobah to stop will be very hard. There are a few things that won't work at all, and a few that will work but cause lots of acrimony, and something off-beat, weird, and workable that your players will come up. What *won't* work: o Calling on J&Z's superiors. Gabriel is not going to see any problem at all with what Jehoash and Zobah are doing. In fact, it's entirely possible that simply broaching the subject with her will cause her to manifest on Earth and lend Jehoash a helping hand. Michael won't be quite so sudden, but he's not likely to be at all sympathetic to pleas for mercy for the killers. Angelology named him the patron angel of Israel and the guardian of the Jews for a reason -- and just because he likes valiant martyrs doesn't mean that he likes the people inflicting suffering upon the faithful. o Talking things to death. Jehoash is on a deadline; she can't delay her punishments for more than three days without becoming dissonant. Actually, scratch that -- a brilliant ethical argument full of passion, truth, and careful reason can sway the two. But it had better be amazing: Jehoash can /hear/ the insistent demand that the sinners know her fire, and will dismiss hair-splitting. What may work, but with bad aftereffects: o If any PCs threaten violence to stop Jehoash and Zobah, they will back down -- but the PCs will have to mean it (an Elohite and a Seraph will be pretty good at calling bluffs). The two are not willing to start open warfare between angels of God. This is not a solution that will earn the PCs who do it many friends, though. Michael and Gabriel won't be happy at all when they find out. Dominic (if he finds out) will probably not be cool with angels bullying others, instead of calling on the Divine Inquisition, as they ought. o Calling in the Divine Inquisition and accusing Jehoash and Zobah of recklessly endangering the secret of celestial activity on Earth will work, because it's true. The triad itself will be content with the PCs, if they have taken steps to ensure that the skinheads face temporal justice, and otherwise they will do it themselves, afterwards. It's quite likely that any PCs in the vicinity of the triad (especially the accusers and any sufficiently loud defenders of J&Z) will be assigned to gather evidence and in general do court-type stuff. Again, this won't please Michael and Gabriel, but it's probably better than the first tack. o Getting the killers to face earthly justice, and getting Abner Cohen to forgive the killers, might or might not work, depending on how the PCs play it. This one really depends on how the roleplay goes. 5. The NPCs Jehoash Seraph of Fire "Anger -- no peevish fit of temper, but just, generous, scalding indignation -- passes (not necessarily at once) into embracing, exultant, re-welcoming love. That is how friends and lovers are truly reconciled. Hot wrath, hot love. Such anger is the fluid that love bleeds when you cut it. The /angers/, not the measured remonstrances, of lovers are love's renewal. Wrath and pardon are both, as applied to God, analogies; but they belong together in the same circle of analogy -- the circle of life, of love, and deeply personal relationships. All the liberalising and 'civilising' analogies only lead us astray. Turn God's wrath into mere enlightened disapproval, and you also turn His love into mere humanitarianism. The 'consuming fire' and the 'perfect beauty' both vanish." -- C.S. Lewis, Letters to Malcolm Corporeal Forces 3 -- Strength 6 Agility 6 Ethereal Forces 3 -- Intelligence 6 Precision 6 Celestial Forces 4 -- Will 6 Perception 10 Vessel: Human Female/2, Charisma +1 Skills: Fighting/4, Dodge/4, Emote/2 Songs: Celestial Charm/2, Corporeal Dreams/2, Celestial Dreams/2 Attunements: Seraph of Fire, Ofanite of Fire, Smite Appearance: Jehoash appears on Earth a tall Hispanic woman, with long hair and smoky black eyes. She dresses in whatever Zobah brings to her, which means she normally wears worn-out castoffs. Story: A psychiatrist might, if he had a chance to examine her, diagnose Jehoash as manic-depressive. He would be profoundly wrong. Jehoash is one of Gabriel's Seraphim, an angel of truth. She sees both the beauty of Creation and the depravity of the evil in it without any of the mental blinkers and self-absorption that shield men from it. And she feels the corresponding emotions with a purity and clarity with an intensity that humans will find frightening. What is especially disturbing about her is the near-total lack of emotional distance that she sets between herself and the rest of the universe. She is very, very open to the feelings of others, drawing them into her own self and seeing them clearly. Her righteous anger against the cruel arises because she cannot bear the suffering of their victims, and likewise her joy at even the simplest kindness will seem to be unusually strong. If you caught her in an introspective mood, she might remark that angels were made to form the retinues of the blessed, and to sing their praises to God. She would say that the people she comes to punish are those that she was made to celebrate, but who through ruined themselves by placing themselves in willful rebellion against the laws of God. She is utterly indifferent to any human social conventions, and has no particular interest in learning about them. Instead, she relies on Zobah to figure out what is going on and to explain to her what she needs to do. Zobah Elohite of War "But I will show thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince." -- Daniel 10:21 Corporeal Forces 3 -- Strength 8 Agility 6 Ethereal Forces 3 -- Intelligence 6 Precision 6 Celestial Forces 3 -- Will 6 Perception 6 Vessel: Human Male/2 Skills: Fighting/3, Large Weapon/3, Dodge/3, Tactics/3, Lying/3, Fast-talk/3, Move Silently/3 Songs: Corporeal Dreams/3 Attunements: Elohite of War Appearance: Zobah manifests as a small, thin Caucasian man in his mid-30s. Both his eyes and his hair is a dusty brown, and he dresses in the plainest and most worn clothes he can find. (Anything better he donates to charity.) Story: Zobah was a fairly typical (if slightly solitary) angel of War, when he met Jehoash. He observed that she was having substantial difficulty coping with the physical world, and realized that her effectiveness would be greatly increased if she had someone who could deal with it for her. He proceeded to wrap up his mortal affairs, and began to accompany Jehoash on her wanderings across the Earth. His own personality is rather cool and distant. He maintains his reserve both to satisfy his dissonance condition as well as to provide a stable reference view for Jehoash -- which helps to keep her from becoming dissonanct. This is very important to him, and he will maintain it even if it frustrates other people. At first, it is likely that Zobah will be seen as the dominant member of the pair, but this is an impression caused mostly by the fact that Zobah is the talkative one, and because Jehoash usually follows Zobah's advice about things pertaining to the material world. In actuality, he follows Jehoash's lead quite closely, because he respects her status as a seraph, and also because he trusts her ability to hear who to punish. Abner Cohen Distraught Parent "Oh, He is hard, so hard -- first my Ruth was taken and now my Moses. And I, I am so weak, how can I bear it?" Corporeal Forces 1 -- Strength 2 Agility 2 Ethereal Forces 2 -- Intelligence 4 Precision 4 Celestial Forces 2 -- Will 4 Perception 4 Status: Electrical Engineer, Status/4 Skills: Engineering/3, Computers/2, Emote/1 Appearance: Abner Cohen is an old man in his early 40s. He is haggard and exhausted, and his hands tremble like a much older man. Story: The past few weeks have been very, very hard on Abner Cohen. He lost his boy, who he lived for, and he is without any family to help him carry the burden of his loss. (His wife Ruth died a few years back.) Anyone who talks with him will find him to be a very polite man, though the perceptive might notice that he is focusing on it as much to hold himself together as anything else. Dig a little deeper, and you'll find a grief so profound it can only be compared to the loss a tortured animal might feel -- he is in pain and doesn't really understand why it happened or how to deal with it. His grief hasn't yet metamorphosed into anger, but when it does it is likely to be terrible to behold. If he finds out about the skinheads who killed his son, much will depend on his precise state of mind -- he is conceivably hurt enough to engage in some vigilante justice himself. Jack Deerfield Sample terrified punk "You don't get it! There's some kind of Freddie clone out there, and he's waxing me and my buds! You gotta help me, man! You gotta!" Corporeal Forces 2 -- Strength 4 Agility 4 Ethereal Forces 1 -- Intelligence 2 Precision 2 Celestial Forces 2 -- Will 2 Perception 6 Skills: Fighting/1, Dodge/1, Lying/1 Appearance: The early 80s never ended for Jack -- he still has the army boots and black leather and died hair of the old punk scene. He no longer looks tough and menacing, though, since the nightmares he's been having have caused him to become gaunt and terrified. Personality: It's symptomatic of Jack's myopic tunnel vision that even though half a dozen of his friends suffered horrible nightmares before being burned to death, it has never even occurred to him to skip town. Instead, he's been running from acquaintance to acquaintance, staying with them for a night or two before his uncommonly well- developed paranoid jumpiness has caused him to flee. Most of his friends figure that this is just typical Jack, but for once in his life he's right -- there are shadowy powers out to get him. Basically, Jack is a loser. He's rarely given thought to accomplishing anything with his life, and when he has, it's always been to blame others for his failures. (His anti-Semitism is emblematic: it's not so much hate as it is flashes of resentment crystallizing along very conventional lines.) All his life he has drifted, even when he was killing Moses Cohen; he was just going along with his buds, and now he's found himself in an untenable position. - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@cswv.com ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #989 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.