From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Oct 22 13:26:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA12194 for ; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 13:26:19 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id MAA28412 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 12:56:44 -0500 Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 12:56:44 -0500 Message-Id: <199810221756.MAA28412@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #990 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, October 22 1998 Volume 01 : Number 990 In this digest: Re: IN> Adventure Concepts Re: IN> On Advancement IN> Alternative Khalid, Comments IN> Alternative Dark Khalid Re: IN> Lucifer vs. Michael IN> Alternative Khalid, Attunements, etc. IN> Alternative Khalid, Background Re: IN> [Adventure seed] The Excellency of His Wrath Re: IN> On Advancement Re: IN> Lucifer vs. Michael Re: IN> Adventure Concepts Re: IN> Alternative Khalid, Background Re: IN> Lucifer vs. Michael Re: IN> The Future of In Nomine Re: IN> Skill improvement Re: IN> The Future of In Nomine (was Re:IN> Constructive Criticism) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 14:54:22 +0100 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Adventure Concepts On Wed, Oct 21, 1998 at 12:17:18PM +0100, Hart, Joanna wrote: > To be honest, I can't decide. I rather like the notion that makes celestials > very alien by saying that they don't necessarily learn from experience in > the same way that humans do -- they aren't wired that way. An angel doesn't > think; it just knows. Therefore it doesn't learn; it must be reprogrammed by > its maker. > It's an interesting idea, but I don't think it's well supported by canon. Also, my characters are explicitly not written like that, and my two favourite characters have come up with their own theories of the universe which are more or less inaccurate. I'm inclined to the view that the humanisation of characters who spend a lot of time on Earth is due in greater degree to the much greater autonomy and distance from their peers they have than contact with humans. If you don't see your Superior for 100 years or so, your mindset may well diverge significantly from its original programming. > This is a problem with general xp in games anyway, where you can have the > points to spend way before it would be IC for your character to have learned > the new skill. That was a killer for me after No Dinero. I was raking through the skill list for skills I could reasonably have learnt in the past 3 months (explicitly excluding skills I'd improved after the previous adventure or for which I'd improved the controlling Characteristic), and ended up making up a number of knowledges to cover it. If you're playing regularly and the IC-calendar is advancing > slowly, then you're character will end up with huge inexplicable skill leaps > in ways that just kill suspension of disbelief. > This is actually part of the reason I think it'd be better to start with more points. Suspension of disbelief is easier if you're actually a competent fighter after 200 years of fighting. (I know you can actually give yourself skill/6s on 36 points, but it comes at the expense of giving your character a broader background and reasonable auxiliary skills, given that few people make characters with no Songs.) ObSomewhatOffTopic: I'm not entirely sure how prevalent it is, but I strongly suspect that a number of times characters are created with no Emote, Savoir-Faire, Fast-Talk, Seduction or Lying skills, but aren't roleplayed as socially inept people, which is, after all, exactly what they are. They literally have no social skills. And a lot of my characters should have social skills greater than I give them, but I can't afford it. > Because that is such a general thing I don't really know the answer, beyond > giving out less xp, being tight on when or how people are allowed to spend > xp, I police myself when improving my characters, and do so quite severely. Less xp is probably also better. Although if a superior reaches down and tweaks your forces, > that's a good explanation for sudden skill jumps :) > That can be quite useful (and I intended it as a plus for In Nomine), but it rarely happens for my characters. This is probably linked to the reasons I tend not to do well in LARPs. > I think you could easily run an AM-style IN game. Assign the PCs to a small > city (ie. covenant), where they are probably the main angelic/ demonic > contingent and possibly have been for a while, and divide the year up into > thirds or quarters -- work out what your backplots and subplots are, and > assume that life has been generally quiet for them, to the extent of > probably no more than one or two calls for heavy celestial action per > season. That seems reasonable to me, for a fairly realistic type of game. > Ditto. > If I had the players, I'd consider trying it. Could just let them all play > seneschals or something. It would mean that you'd probably discuss downtime > activities at the beginning or end of each session, many of which would > happen offscreen or in low-grain detail. > I'd do it, but I don't know if I have the time/patience to play something else by e-mail. I don't know how it'd work for Windies and Thieves, though. They'd probably have to be with other travelling characters. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "From your first day in camp everyone will try to deceive and plunder you ... in camp no one ever does anything for nothing, no one does anything out of the generosity of his heart. You have to pay for everything. If someone proposes something that is unselfish, disinterested, you can be sure it's a dirty trick, a provocation." Alexander Solzhenitsyn, the Gulag Archipelago. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 10:03:24 EDT From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> On Advancement In a message dated 10/22/98 2:00:56 AM, johnk@ascc01.ascc.lucent.com writes: >Nana Yaw Ofori wrote: >> >> At 4:35 PM -0500 10/21/98, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >> >> >Is advancement strictly necessary? Or at least advancement by >> >rising stats? Are there any successful RPGs where stats are fixed? >> >> [Arg, put the wrong address on the initial version] >> >> Well, there's AD&D... Not /completely/ fixed, but extremely difficult >to >> raise, requiring magic items and/or Wishes in most cases. I suppose you >> might call that successful. \|=) >> >> OH, you probably meant all stats and skills and whatnot...Hm. Wasn't >the >> original Traveler like that? This is hearsay, I've never actually /seen/ >> the original Traveler... > > In the original traveler, it was damnably difficult >to raise SKILLS, much less stats! The assumption, early on, >was that after you made your character, there you were. >Well, stats could go down from aging... ;) > >-- My pet theory is that Traveler was originally designed to be a vehicle to attract older Science Fiction fans into the "Wonderful World of RPG's"(tm), and so had older, more stable characters who were (mostly) retired from their branch of service. The difficulty in raising stats and skills was part and parcel of the game concept. I still remember my 50 year old starting character. (At the time, I was 16....) :} Mark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 09:16:35 -0500 From: Eeyore Subject: IN> Alternative Khalid, Comments I'll try to make this part brief. I haven't come up with invocation modifiers yet. I'm not even sure that this Dark Khalid ought to be summonable. Always keep in mind that I've never played IN; I don't have a good feel for what various attunements will do to game balance. Comments on this would be appreciated. I'm going to be re-writing the History section at some point. I tried to give enough Islamic/Arab history to provide a feel for it without bogging the write-up down, but I don't really like the results. I'm just not sure whether I should go up or down. I'm perfectly willing to explain why I went in some of the directions I did, but I figured you should get a look at it cold, first. J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 09:12:16 -0500 From: Eeyore Subject: IN> Alternative Dark Khalid Dark Khalid, Demon Prince of Despair Note: This version of Khalid might not be made a Demon Prince if he Falls. If not, he becomes the Demon of Despair, serving Kronos. The Fallen Khalid the Djinn’s Djinn. His loss of faith has turned him into a complete nihilist. God has forsaken His Creation and the only proper action is to bring the whole universe to an end. It is also acceptable to give up, lay down and due, bit to continue to try to preserve the world would be blasphemy. Khalid’s existence is much the same as it was before his Fall. He still spends his time on the corporeal plane, attempting to bring the Show to a close. He avoids Infernal politics with even more determination than he avoided those of Heaven. He understands that he now works on the side of Lucifer, but he still despises Hell and all it represents. Its minions were the ones whose success caused Allah to turn His gaze from the world. The Servitors of other Princes are important only insofar as they contribute to the task of destroying the universe. Most of the angels that Fell with Khalid remain in his service, though Bashir is a notable exception. Few other of Hell’s minions are attracted to his stark message. He will remain the weakest of the Demon Princes for a long time, his survival based upon the fact that no one else really considers him a threat, though Asmodeus dislikes the casual attitude Khalid shows towards disobedience. Most of Hell’s royalty find him useful in some way, and he will cooperate with any of them to further his own ends. This happens most often with Servitors of Saminga. As a Superior, Khalid is not demanding. He punishes those who violate his Dissonance conditions severely, but he is tolerant (uncaring may be a better word) of almost anything else. His Word is antithetical to long-range planning and he rarely assigns detailed tasks to his Servitors. A few demons have joined his ranks as an alternative to going Renegade, but otherwise, it is rarely a good career move. Dissonance It is dissonant for demons of Despair give hope or encouragement to a human. They also may not create anything that does not further the goal of ending the world. Band Attunements Balseraphs These Liars may add their Celestial Forces to any attempt to use their resonance to convince someone to abandon a goal they have set for themselves. Djinn Djinn of Despair generate no Dissonance for causing emotional harm to someone to whom they are attuned. In addition, they may add their Corporeal Forces to any attempt to convince someone to be as lazy and apathetic as they are themselves. Calabim Khalid’s Calabim can tell if someone has a prized possession whose destruction would cause them grief. With a successful perception roll, they can learn their target’s most cherished item. Habbalah These demons specialize in the effect of Emptiness. They may add their Celestial Forces to any attempt to use it, and the target has his Will halved in addition to his Agility. A 111 on a Dissonance check does not force the demon to re-evaluate her status. Lilim Few Lilim serve Khalid, but those that do treat any geas they hold as one level higher if it is used to make the victim perform a self-destructive act. Shedim Shedim of Despair eat away at the will of their host. Their victim does not get a +1 to their perception roll for each day that they have been possessed. Also, these demons do not gain a note of dissonance if the host dies while they still possess it; they are quite comfortable with oblivion. Impudites Khalid’s Impudites do not just steal their victims’ Essence; they can block them from getting more. A successful Resonance roll against someone they have already charmed can inflict the target with the Need discord at a level equal to the check digit, the Need being the presence of the Impudite. The discord lasts for a number of days equal to the check digit. Servitor Attunements Lassitude The demon can inflict a state of apathy upon his victim. This causes a penalty equal to the amount of Essence the demon spends on all skill checks. The target resists with a Will roll; if it fails, the penalty lasts for a number of minutes equal to the check die. Cracked Foundation With a perception roll, the demon knows the subject’s most deeply held belief and what it would take to make her question that belief. Distinctions Khalid offers no distinctions. To do so would imply goals and progress. Relations Allied: Kronos Associated: Malphas, Saminga Hostile: Asmodeus, Lilith Basic Rites Convince someone to renege on an agreed deal Cause someone to renounce their religion (+2) Drive someone to commit suicide (+3) Chance of Invocation: 1 Invocation Modifiers +1 +2 +3 +4 +5 +6 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 10:09:43 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Lucifer vs. Michael Simon Hailes wrote: > In a nut shell, yes Lucifer can wipe the floor with Michael. > Lucifer has grown greatly in power, due to his relative freedom of > control in Hell, he can perform Interventions now, something which > canon has yet to state Michael can do. And also, if only one of the > Archangels had the ability to thwart the most powerful of the demons, > then wouldn't the war have ended ages ago? why doesn't Michael then > just finish the Son of the Morning off, if he apparently can? I think this is a bit like asking if Hitler could beat Eisenhower. Beat how? On the battlefield, or in a wrestling match? (Or at chess, or in a court of law?) There are many different ways of fighting. As to the Interventions, Lucifer is trying to imitate God; none of the Archangels are. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 09:11:25 -0500 From: Eeyore Subject: IN> Alternative Khalid, Attunements, etc. Choir Attunements In addition to the choir attunements listed below, those of Khalid’s Servitors who follow Islam instinctively know what direction Mecca lies in and when it is one of the five appointed times for daily prayer. This knowledge raises the target number for any attempt at dead reckoning navigation by 2. Seraphim Khalid’s Seraphim hunt those who profit from false proclamations of Faith. Their resonance roll to detect a swindle that promotes false hope and belief automatically succeeds. Roll to obtain a check digit or intervention. Cherubim Cherubim of Faith are the guardians of ideas. A subject to which they are attuned may add the cherub’s celestial forces to any Will roll to resist resonances or songs that would affect their minds. This includes the resonance of a Kyriotate, Balseraph, Habbalah, Shedite or an Impudite’s Charm. They may also attune themselves to a book, letter or other tangible method of transferring information. They will know if this object is tampered with so as to change its meaning. Ofanim These Wheels are the messengers of Faith. They delight in bringing tidings of hope to the faithful. Khalid’s Ofanim use their faith to sustain them through hardship and overcome difficulty. Their ceaseless travel brings them no weariness and all terrain, be it a wide ocean or a sheer cliff, is treated as a flat plain. Elohim With a successful resonance roll, Elohim of Faith can tell what a person believes in and how strongly. It is their task to test the faith of those they meet in order to make it stronger in those who pass. This is also a test of the Elohite, as they must sometimes act uncomfortably like the Fallen Habbalah. Malakim Malakim of Faith are the mailed fist of vengeance. When they look at the corpse of a martyr, they know who caused her death. They add their celestial forces to any skill or combat roll in the cause of bringing the perpetrator to justice. Kyriotates Khalid’s Kyriotates reinforce a person’s Faith in themselves. The mind of their host does not retreat entirely to the Marches. This allows the Kyriotate access to the hosts skills. It also allows the host to remember the time during which it is possessed, though any obviously supernatural event will be fuzzy and remembered incompletely. The host will remember any successful action the Kyriotate takes using the hosts skills as if it were his own and use it to build confidence in his abilities. Mercurians These angels bring hope and faith to those who have none. At the cost of 2 Essence, they may make a resonance roll to determine a person’s Need, as the Lilim resonance. They will not find Needs that would push the target towards their Fate. Servitor Attunements Ray of Hope With this attunement, an angel can make a human aware of what he is capable. The human know with confidence of his ability to accomplish the things that make up his Destiny. It doesn’t make him aware of the concept of Destiny in general, just that he can accomplish these things. It in no way compels the human to follow this path. Evolution of Cooperation For 3 Essence, the angel can make any two humans assist each other the next time they have the opportunity. They will not act treacherously to each other until they do. If the first instance is not one of mutual cooperation, the obligation remains on the one that did not provide the aid, so long as the other does not betray him in the meantime. Faith Can Move Mountains With the expenditure of 2 Essence, the angel can raise the target number of any action to 3, regardless of negative modifiers. Wrath of Allah As described in The Final Trumpet Distinctions Vassal of Childlike Hope Khalid’s Vassals know whether someone is, in general, trustworthy. Friend of a Higher Cause The angel is a superb orator. Add 4 to the target roll of any Emote skill roll, so long as the angel believes what he is saying. Master of Inner Strength With a perception roll, a Master of Inner Strength knows the beliefs of his target and how strongly he holds them. Basic Rites Successfully defend a place of worship or meeting for the faithful. Convince someone who is skeptical to place their faith in something beyond their control. Spend an entire day helping the poor and those in need. Convert a non-believer to Islam (+2) Chance of Invocation: 4 Invocation Modifiers +1 +2 +3 +4 +5 +6 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 09:10:09 -0500 From: Eeyore Subject: IN> Alternative Khalid, Background When I got to work this morning, my mailbox was full, so I guess I'll just post the write-up after all. If I'm never heard from again, it probably means the list moderator disagreed with the decision. I'm going to take a brief moent to explain some of the larger scale decisions I made. Khalid Archangel of Faith History Khalid is very young for an Archangel, created shortly before the original Fall. He is a Cherub, with all of that Choir’s stubbornness and fortitude. He was a zealous Servitor of Purity, looking over his charges to ensure that they remained pure in their hearts. His task was to ensure that humans always had someone to look to for guidance so as to avoid temptation. For his efforts, he was deemed worthy of the Word of Faith. Though he was a determined promoter of his Word, Khalid’s own faith remained unfocused for many centuries. He was electrified when he heard the messages that Gabriel carried to a tradesman in a seemingly unimportant corner of the world. The Angel of Faith took a place amid the small band of believers that gathered around Muhammad. For the next twenty years he spent most of his time in Arabia, nurturing the new faith of Islam. He provided encouragement when spirits flagged and assistance when danger threatened. Yet even he was surprised when Islam made its meteoric rise after the death of the Prophet. It is claimed by some in Heaven that Khalid adopted Islam out of a desire to oppose Laurence and that their costly rivalry was furthered, or even began at that time. There may well be truth to this, for Khalid has always been ambitious, and he certainly disapproved of the way in which Laurence and Dominic were using Christianity. Really, no one, even the two protagonists, knows why a once strong friendship soured so badly. But it was a decision that took on a life of its own. Either the Word of Faith pushed its angel into acceptance of Islam, or this acceptance strengthened the Word, or both. Regardless, Khalid truly believes in Islam with a deepness that no human religion has inspired in any of his fellow Archangels, save perhaps Uriel. Khalid reacted with anger to Laurence’s elevation to the position of General of the Host, despite becoming an Archangel himself. For reasons both simple and complex, it was a decision he opposed. He is proud enough of his own abilities to think that he would have been a better choice. But he also believes that Laurence was a deficient Servitor of Purity. The Angel of the Sword actively promotes a faith in which he does not believe himself. Viewed through the prism of Khalid’s interpretation of his own Word, this is an act of supreme falsehood. He can not see in it the practical goal of strengthening humanity, but instead he assumes that it is a cynical ploy to build a political power base. For a time, Khalid remained in Heaven, fighting a struggle to make the others adopt his view. He became increasingly strident in his complaints. At last, David, the elder to whom Khalid feels most akin, advised him to leave. The Archangel of Stone recognized that the rancor had no good outcome; either Heaven would be split or, more likely, Khalid’s bitterness would only escalate. So the Archangel of Faith left his cathedral, and has returned only rarely. Unlike Gabriel, he has taken up residence primarily on the Corporeal plane. He has served in many roles over the centuries, from charismatic imams preaching to the faithful to sufi mystics to simple Arab tribesmen or Indonesian peasants. He has seen his religion from every position save that of temporal ruler. He viewed corporeal politics as trivial when measured against celestial faith. The change in home did Khalid good for several hundred years. Islam flourished and its patron lost himself in his duties. It was a golden era, and all seemed right in the world. It was old rivalries and his disregard of earthly power that brought it to an end. He viewed the Crusades and the Christian assaults on Islamic Spain as a direct attack by Laurence. When he attempted to fight back, he found that the rot at the heart of the Abbasid, Fatimid and Umayyad caliphates made coordinated resistance impossible. To fight against the onslaught, Khalid overcompensated. The Seljuq Turks proved to be an effective fighting force and Khalid embraced them whole-heartedly. Unfortunately, these tribes were incapable of sustaining the dynamism of the rest of society. Despite what on maps seemed to be a great expansion, Islam fell into a long period of intellectual and cultural stagnation. The Archangel of Faith symbolized this decline completely. When the Mongols destroyed Baghdad in 1258, he didn’t even recognize what had been lost. As the tide turned against the Muslims centuries later, Khalid could only watch helplessly as European powers colonized thelands of Islam. The umma (community of Muslims) was incapable of serious military resistance, and he had sunk so deep into despair that he could not see another path. Matters outside of Islam were less and less likely to draw his attention. The Protestant Reformation, a tremendous expression of Faith, passed by largely without his notice. The catalyst for change was a young angel named ir-Rahman. Her Kyriotate nature absorbed the intellectual revolution against ossified legal formalism that began in the late 18th century. She joyously brought these developments to the attention of her Superior. Through much hard work, she awakened his interest. Servitors of Faith were part of the religious reforms of Wahabbism and the intellectual revival under the Qajar dynasty in Iran. And yet, Khalid finds himself in a position where he is losing his own faith. The post-colonial world brought to power avowedly secular rulers in most of the Islamic world, and the most powerful opposition to these governments seem to be bent on establishing regimes as narrow minded as those that existed before colonial times. A key event was when Gabriel’s tether at the Dome of the Rock fell into Malphas’ hands. He can not fathom why Allah would allow the site of Muhammad’s ascension to Heaven to become a gate to Hell. Khalid can feel all of his gains slipping through his fingers, and he fears that he is on the verge of Falling. And Malphas may be ready to give the final push. Personality and Outlook Khalid has become increasingly withdrawn, not just from Heaven, but from those close to him as well. When he looks into the future, he sees the twin blights of disbelief and fanaticism; simple faith seems incapable of withstanding their pressures and his Word weighs heavily upon him. He is reluctant to take any action, as he is unsure of its efficacy. While not subscribing to all of the political implications, Khalid is philosophically sympathetic to Shi’ite beliefs. In practice, this means he accepts mystical revelation and is closer to sufi orders than many Sunnis. He also believes in the eventual arrival of the mahdi who will lead the spiritual community. Yet, he can not understand why the time for the mahdi’s return has not arrived, and why he no longer feels that mystical connection to God. Deep in his heart, Khalid is beginning to fear that he has been wrong all of these centuries. He is now a difficult Archangel to get a hold of. He lives in an isolated desert camp and receives few visitors. He is extremely reluctant to give guidance or encouragement to those who do arrive. He is more likely to share his bleak forebodings, but he does not really wish to inflict them on others either, so he is more likely to remain silent. Those who meet him will be struck by the aura of weariness and apathy that he carries with him. Like all Cherubim, Khalid is very protective. In times past, he has been warm and supportive to those around him. That he can no longer be so pains him greatly and contributes to his isolation. He can still be roused to great wrath should any of the things which he holds dear be threatened. He remains polite in his personal dealings. The two angels who have the most influence over him are ir-Rahman and Bashir, the Angel of Ikhwan (Brotherhood). The former can still, on occasion, pierce his despair and bring him to action. The latter, though, reinforces Khalid’s lethargy while preaching militant opposition to other Servitors of Faith. Priorities For centuries, Khalid has promoted Faith and Islam in whatever fashion seemed most effective. He still wants to protect his flock, but is increasingly unable to articulate long-range objectives. Others, usually the two mentioned above, can focus him on a specific problem, but it has no carryover effect. The goal on which Khalid has fixated is the redemption of the Dome of the Rock. He would take this as a sign of a return of god’s favor. He is so focused that he is ignoring the long-term dangers his quest entails. He has conversed on the subject with Malphas, who is using all of his charm and wiles to win over an Archangel. In other circumstances, he might give up the Tether if it would secure Khalid’s Fall, but he has other plans right now. The one idea that Khalid is developing for a long-term goal, urged by the not entirely independent advice of Bashir and Malphas, is that the time has arrived for Armageddon. That, surely, would bring about God’s justifying Faith. And a small part of him whispers that if it did not, then it is better for the world to end. Politics Khalid largely withdrew from active participation in Heavenly politics long ago, but he has obviously not cut himself off completely. He still makes sure that his opinion on important issues is known. He also makes sure that those of his Servitors that he thinks are worthy of a Word are able to petition the Seraphim Council. Much of Faith’s business is conducted through David. Khalid’s long time friend will often serve as a proxy in bringing issues up. The Archangel of Faith has long been a militant on the issue of prosecution of the War, but it has been noticed that recently this ardour has waned. Allied: David Associated: Gabriel, Michael Hostile: Dominic, Laurence Dissonance It is dissonant for an angel of Faith to deny that in which he believes, or to affirm that which he opposes. This is not the same as the dissonance conditions of a Seraph; an angel of Faith may lie about many things, but he must always be honest about those principles he holds most dear. It is also dissonant for an angel of Faith to abandon a cause or goal as hopeless. Tactical retreats are acceptable and sometimes even necessary. But he must return to the task on another day, from another direction, until it is accomplished, regardless of the odds. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 10:32:51 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> [Adventure seed] The Excellency of His Wrath Wow. This is marvelous. It captures how holiness can be so scary and still be holy. And all without even using Malakim. A mischievous streak in me would like to see Jehoash and Zobah encounter the trio of Tess, Monica, and Andrew from "Touched by an Angel," who are fairly convincing and fairly holy angelic characters, but do NOT work the violent side of the street, specializing in redeeming people's souls. On consideration, if Tess (the supervisor) decided (or got word) that this WAS the will of the Lord, she'd probably just tell Monica, "Work fast." (Andrew, being an angel of death, already has an obvious job.) Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 10:36:52 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> On Advancement Okay, Traveler is certainly a significant item. Any OTHER successful RPGs with no advancement of basic attributes? (How about SJG's "Toon"?) Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 10:34:10 -0400 From: neel@cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Subject: Re: IN> Lucifer vs. Michael Vz wrote: > >>Well, I don't know. I mean, yeah, Michael bested Lucifer once before, >>but back then Luci was just another AA. Lucifer has grown in power >>since then. > >As to whether Lucifer could beat Michael in a fight, fair or not, we may >never know. Perhaps old Luci's got a self-confidence problem when it comes >to fighting Michael, and that's why he gave Baal his word. When one has a >word as powerful as Michael's and being one of the first creations of God >(as was Lucifer before he fell), maybe Lucifer cannot take Michael in an >all out "relatively fair" fight (one on one). This argument has given me an idea for a campaign seed. In Isaiah 51:9 (KJV), "Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the LORD; awake, as in the ancient days, in the generations of old. Art thou not it that hath cut Rahab, and wounded the dragon?" This is reminiscent of the Babylonian myth of the god Marduk slaying the great dragon Tiamat. IIRC, Marduk was the mightiest servant of the high god. Sound familiar? In Revelations 12:7-8, we see "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. This is generally understood to refer to two battles: one at the beginning of time and one at the end. Now, we can mix these ideas to come up with a campaign seed. Rahab was the great dragon that inhabited the waters of the deep; before the Spirit of God could move upon the face of the waters and make Creation, He had to smite the dragon and prevent it from disrupting His work. However, as Isaiah notes, Rahab was not slain, but merely driven off and badly wounded. Creation happens, and then the Fall. Lucifer and Michael fight, and Lucifer is crushed. This happens exactly in accordance with the prophecy of Revelations: Lucifer, the great dragon, will fight Michael and lose in battles at the beginning and end of time. So, the forces of Hell are in a bit of a bind -- if they start Armageddon, then they know that they will lose, because their great dragon and its host will be defeated by Michael's host. This is when one of the Princes has a bright idea. Perhaps it is possible to change the meaning of Revelations 12:9. The plan is very simple: Michael is destined to defeat the great dragon, but is there any need for that dragon to be Lucifer? After all, as long as the great dragon is defeated and cast down, the prophecy will be fulfilled.... So the plan is to find and awaken Rahab, and send it to do battle against the angelic hosts. Michael *will* defeat it -- it's prophecied -- but this leaves the forces of Hell largely intact. And Armageddon can take place without any prophecy nailing down the outcome, because Michael has "used it up" killing Rahab. - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@cswv.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 98 11:02 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Adventure Concepts >ObSomewhatOffTopic: I'm not entirely sure how prevalent it is, but I >strongly suspect that a number of times characters are created with no >Emote, Savoir-Faire, Fast-Talk, Seduction or Lying skills, but aren't >roleplayed as socially inept people, which is, after all, exactly what >they are. They literally have no social skills. And a lot of my characters >should have social skills greater than I give them, but I can't afford it. I'm not convinced by this argument -- after all, there are defaults. Someone who had no clue about Earth behavior wouldn't really be entitled to them, I think. Another thing that could be used to fix this is to add Knowledge (Human behavior), so that a character could be somewhat clueful about these sorts of activities without necessarily being very good at them. Overall, I think this problem arises from a desire to streamline the character to a minimum set of *major* skills, with "everyday" skill levels not really showing on the chart at all. Yes, that isn't what the mechanics imply statistically, but I didn't say this really made sense.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 16:04:41 +0100 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: Re: IN> Alternative Khalid, Background Great stuff ;-) Thanks for posting. jo ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 16:41:36 +0100 From: Julian Breen Subject: Re: IN> Lucifer vs. Michael In message , Simon Hailes writes > In a nut shell, yes Lucifer can wipe the floor with Michael. Lucifer has >grown greatly in power, due to his relative freedom of control in Hell, he >can perform Interventions now, something which canon has yet to state >Michael can do. One thing to bear in mind for future confrontation is that whereas Michael once championed God, Lucifer now has his own champion - Baal. Seeing as how Lucifer has truly established himself as Adversary, he may consider duelling with Michael 'beneath' him. Of course, even if Lucifer has grown in power much more than Michael, he might still find coming up against him again to be a somewhat daunting prospect. Michael, after all, does not play fair. He will win by any means at his disposal (maybe Lucy still remembers that 'low blow' };)), and God only knows what ace up his sleeve he's carrying for the Final Conflict. Hmmm. Sounds eminently more sensible for Baal to fight him, no? - -- Julian ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 13:47:19 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> The Future of In Nomine Given the eternal nature of the conflict and the potential immortality of most PCs, I think historical settings for In Nomine have real possibility. I would NOT make every famous person a celestial or under celestial influence, nor would I make all major events celestial-engineered, but there is plenty of scope in playing the celestial responses to historical events. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 13:50:42 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Skill improvement Walter Milliken wrote: > This is somewhat similar to the Runequest system That may very well be where the inventor of our game mechanics got it. > The problem with it is the "I think I'll switch weapons now to > see if I can get an improvement roll for my Mace skill" syndrome, We appear to be fortunate in having a low incidence of munchkinism. which Runequest was apparently prone to. > Keeping track of which skills were used is also a bit of a pain, > though do-able. Mostly, I just remember to put a check mark next to the skill when I succeed. If I find a checkmark already there, then I already succeeded and forgot that I did. After I make my learn rolls, at the end of the session, I erase the check marks. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 98 13:54 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> The Future of In Nomine (was Re:IN> Constructive Criticism) >However, I am aware of how big a following GURPS has in the 'States, and >if GURPS IN is intended to bring this audience into IN itself, then I >think it likely that this would have a dramatic effect on the game. If >sales go well and such an audience _is_ captured, then the next >important thing would probably be how *big* it actually is. As Elizabeth pointed out in her reply, the GURPS audience is somewhat genre-fragmented, though some play multiple genres. GURPS IN will probably pull in *some* of them, but I'd be surprised if it were more than a moderately-large fraction. Another goal of GURPS IN is to allow celestials to be added to existing GURPS campaigns, as a character race, so this may not add much to the IN supplement market directly. > If it >dramatically outnumbers the current IN one, then SJG will surely >consider the notion that the future of the game might fare better under >GURPS. I'd doubt this -- the basic IN setting is somewhat better suited to a "lightweight" game system, being rather cinematic. I suspect this is partly why it was done as a separate design, rather than leveraging GURPS in the first place. There's also a large gaming audience that's turned off by GURPS mechanics, just as I suspect many GURPS players would dislike the IN mechanics -- it's a matter of gaming style. GURPS IN will allow both styles to share the background, but I expect the GURPS IN players will turn up the realism knob a bit. >2) Many people aren't happy with the basic system. A great many people dislike GURPS, too.... >Assuming that these lists are going to act as feedback in some regard, >it is conceivable that SJG will therefore not only look at the content >of future supplements but at mechanics also. Quite possibly, but historically they've addressed this sort of issue by publishing variant and additional rules (the "Compendium" model, which appeared first with Car Wars and more recently with GURPS). >*And* If IN does sell to the GURPers then they probably aren't going to >want supplements that aren't specifically written for it. When you're >used to a system with so many sourcebooks available, why buy one which >you have to convert? Most GURPS GMs are actually pretty handy with conversion, in my experience. And with conversion guidelines in both directions in GURPS IN, it should be fairly straightforward. I'll also note that GURPS GMs are quite noted for inventing "house rules" to do things differently than the official system does -- there are enough separable pieces that it's fairly easy to tinker with. So I don't expect this to be a problem. >O.K. Supplements *might* contain two sets of stats (one for IN the other >for the GURPS version) but it seems a trifle daft when both games are >produced by the same company. Besides, extra sets of stats mean extra >space taken up - means less content - means less sales. Stats don't use up much room. In fact, if you look at a typical GURPS supplement, only 10-20% of it is usually GURPS-specific; the rest is background and research material that's fairly independent of game mechanics. (This is one reason why GURPS supplements are often purchased by people who don't actually use GURPS.) >I've never actually played GURPS myself (just downloaded the Lite >version to peruse) but I'll definately be buying GURPS IN when its >released. Why? Well, mainly because I have a feeling that it may well >work better (for me at least) than the current system. It quite possibly may. On the other hand, GURPS is much more demanding in "up-front" costs for character design, which puts many people off. The actual mechanics are nearly as simple as IN's, except that GURPS tends to include rules for all kinds of things that IN doesn't cover, like falling damage, or designing a custom motorcycle, or whatever. Fortunately, most of these issues come up rarely, and you can always just "wing it" rather than look up the answer. But if you really have no clue how long it will take the average human to dig a 6' deep hole, GURPS will tell you. Lest I sound like I'm bashing GURPS, I'm not -- I'm actually an avid GURPS player. But when I play IN, I use the IN rules, not the freeware GURPS conversion on the SJGames web site. Why? I happen to like the "feel" of the IN rules for the IN setting. >Ironically, wasn't In Nomine originally intended as a GURPS book anyhow? Not that I ever heard of. - ---Walter ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #990 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.