From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Nov 4 18:47:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA22064 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 18:47:55 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id SAA22985 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 18:30:39 -0600 Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 18:30:39 -0600 Message-Id: <199811050030.SAA22985@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1005 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, November 4 1998 Volume 01 : Number 1005 In this digest: Re: IN> Re: IN- Kyriotates-careless children? Re: IN> Learning Songs IN> Re: IN- Kyriotates-careless children? Re: IN> Re: IN- Re: IN- Kyriotates-careless children? Re: IN> Re: IN- Monkeys... (sheesh) Re: IN> Learning Songs IN> Tear and Mustard Re: IN> Tear and Mustard Re: IN> Learning Songs Re: IN> Kyriotate of....DESTINY!!!! Re: IN> Learning Songs Re: IN> Breathless... Re: IN> Learning Songs Re: IN> Breathless... Re: IN> Learning Songs Re: IN> Tear and Mustard Re: IN> Breathless... Re: IN> Liber Servitorum Re: IN> Breathless... Re: IN> Tear and Mustard IN> Re: IN- Re: IN- Re: Sex, lies and Celestials IN> Musings on Corporeal Forces & Vessels Re: IN> Sex, lies and Celestials Re: IN> Sex, lies and Celestials IN> Re: IN- Re: IN- Kyriotates-careless children? Re: IN> Breathless... IN> Re: IN- Sex, lies and Celestials Re: IN> Musings on Corporeal Forces & Vessels IN> Shedim and the Marches IN> Re: IN- Kyriotates-careless children? IN> Learning Songs IN> Learning Songs IN> Balseraph of Fate Re: IN> Learning Songs ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 10:53:26 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Kyriotates-careless children? On Tue, Nov 03, 1998 at 04:05:29PM -0500, Perry Lloyd wrote: > As for being ridden for several days, yes, it would be unnerving to lack > a few days of memories, but since I knew that I was being possess by an > ANGEL OF HEAVEN, I'd assume that it would be okay. I would definitely be pissed off to be possessed by anyone, and would want an accounting of what they did while wearing my body. And I'd only forgive them if what they did was very good within my own belief system. (Learning that my body had been used in order to set a serial rapist on fire would piss me off, because I'm a bleeding heart liberal.) I would, of course, require proof of what they had said. And I'd still be paranoid about whether to believe any of what they said. > Also, I would RATHERbe ridden by an Angel that had access to my memories > so that it would be better able to pretend to be me, otherwise, my > social life might just be impaired a bit. "Gee, Perry, you were acting > REALLY strange last week." as opposed to "You're were possessed? I > couldn't tell the difference." > On the other hand, I wouldn't want them rooting through my mind for all the nasty thoughts I keep hidden from the rest of the world. I don't think I'd be able to face them ever again. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "From your first day in camp everyone will try to deceive and plunder you ... in camp no one ever does anything for nothing, no one does anything out of the generosity of his heart. You have to pay for everything. If someone proposes something that is unselfish, disinterested, you can be sure it's a dirty trick, a provocation." Alexander Solzhenitsyn, the Gulag Archipelago. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 11:00:33 -0000 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: Re: IN> Learning Songs >> I suspect that superiors don't want humans running around with amazing >> abilities. So precisely how is Ethereal Tongues more amazing than Corporeal Entropy? :-) I think it's reasonable for humans who are ethereally talented (ie. at least 3 ethereal forces) to learn ethereal songs without needing special attunements-- after all, most of those only simulate psychic abilities and have nothing to do with the Ethereal realms, which doesn't seem too unbalancing for exceptional mortals... I can see the argument against learning Celestial songs, mind. jo ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 11:19:17 -0000 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Kyriotates-careless children? >As for being ridden for several days, yes, it would be unnerving to lack >a few days of memories, but since I knew that I was being possess by an >ANGEL OF HEAVEN, I'd assume that it would be okay. It might work quite well if a Kyrio and its human servants/ willing hosts could agree to keep a journal, so that the host would note down useful information such as which of his friends were in his good books, to which alcoholic drinks he was particularly susceptible [Try to avoid red wine because it gives me headaches but if you do get drunk, please drink at least a pint of water before leaving...], any really important interviews or meetings that he had to attend -- and the angel could also write up a diary when it was in possession of the host, so that the owner could catch up afterwards on what his body had been doing. You know, this has possibilities. You could do a _lot_ worse than be a servant to a Kyrio of Destiny, I think! I'm imagining a Kyrio's servant who is really shy and wants to phone up some other person and ask them on a date, begging the angel to possess them and make the phone call ;-) Then I wonder if you could persuade the angel to possess you and sit your exams, assuming it was better at the subject than you were. >-sigh- Angels as rapists... well, whatever floats your boat, I >suppose, just don't expect it to be true in MY campaign... I don't really think of them like that, but it's true that a Kyrio could take great liberties with a borrowed host without getting dissonant. jo (But I'd still want to have words with it if I woke up pregnant) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 06:50:37 -0500 From: Nana Yaw Ofori Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Re: IN- Kyriotates-careless children? At 1:20 PM -0500 11/2/98, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: > > Hey, if the Kyrio has sex with someone else's body, is >it rape then? ]:;:-) > Oh, Heck, yeah! As much so as if the Kyrio drugged the host into unconsciousness and got Person B to have sex with him or her. THe blame falls a little differently, but it's still rape. ===== ><{{"> =================================================== <"}}>< ====== Nana-Yaw "The Fish" Ofori, Freelance Soldier of Heck, presenty serving Spiner, Djinn Knight of Dark Humor, the Demon of Straight Men nofori@pop3.utoledo.edu | Homepage: http://members.tripod.com/~maltesh maltesh@usa.net | In Nomine: http://members.tripod.com/~maltesh/T317 ===== ><{{"> ============ "Life's a Fish, then you Fry." ======= <"}}>< ====== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 11:39:48 +0000 From: Peter Witney Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Monkeys... (sheesh) At 05:13 PM 11/3/98 EST, you wrote: >>Kyriotate: Kyriotates of Monkeys are able to possess a number of >monkeys >>equal to the check digit of a Perception roll for the standard >>duration. However, the monkeys may not be harmed in any way during >this >>possession. > >That last bit is already part of the Kyriotate's Dissonance condition. > Not quite: Kyriotates cannot *leave* a vessel in a worse condition. This sounds like the monkeys cannot be hurt at all, removing them from any fight situations. Pete Peter Witney peter.witney@kobal.demon.co.uk To share with each other / Virtues ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 11:31:20 +0000 From: Peter Witney Subject: Re: IN> Learning Songs At 10:54 PM 11/3/98 +0000, Steve wrote: If you want humans to have songs, let them use song grenades >> (liber reliquium). > >Wuh? How do grenades preserve the mystique of songs? I lumped them in the >'silly things' category: > "It looks like a big one, Jim. Give me Celestial Charm, with Song of >Thunder on the side." >"I'm all out of Celestial Charm, Bob. I can do you Corp Charm, though, and >a nice little Ethereal Entropy I got in just last week." I agree that song grenades look rather like a nice *game device* for leveling the playing field between celestials and humans. They are useful though for all that. It gives the human a one-shot punch (I wouldn't at any time suggest outfitting whole units with mulitple grenades each), which, knowing humans, they'd probably either waste immediately or else never use, always 'waiting for the right moment'. This makes them a source of great dramatic and/or comic potential for a role-playing group, as well as giving PC celestials pause for thought before going to beat up some soldiers. The 'mystique' remains as the grenades are hard to come by, one-use only and the songs are intrinsic to the relic, rather than being activated by and through the human. I still like them, but then I like the idea that you can't tell the difference between them for certain, unless the maker gave them to you and told you (truthfully) what they are. They are dangerous finds for impulsive PCs and the number of devilish ideas they can spark is quite astounding. Pete Peter Witney peter.witney@kobal.demon.co.uk To share with each other / Virtues ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 11:49:08 +0000 From: Peter Witney Subject: IN> Tear and Mustard A quick question, based on the 'how long can a celestial hold its breath' /filter feeder thread. Core Rules says that celestials are affected by tear gas, but how far does that ruling go? Does sleep gas knock them out, does poison gas kill them, does helium send their voices squeaky? Pete Habbalah of Kobal ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 08:59:42 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Tear and Mustard Peter Witney wrote: > Core Rules says that celestials are affected by tear gas, but how > far does that ruling go? Does sleep gas knock them out, does poison > gas kill them, does helium send their voices squeaky? The bit about helium, almost certainly, because that doesn't depend on any biochemistry that may or may not be going on in the vessel; it's just a matter of the acoustic properties of helium gas. If you inhale a swig of helium from a balloon, you'll speak in a squeak on the next exhale, then revert to normal. (And, by the way, it feels VERY odd to take in a breath and not get the usual dose of oxygen with it, which you don't with the pure helium from a balloon.) Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 12:44:05 +0000 From: Peter Witney Subject: Re: IN> Learning Songs At 11:00 AM 11/4/98 -0000, jo wrote: >So precisely how is Ethereal Tongues more amazing than Corporeal Entropy? Yeah, ok, I guess you still have to be taught the songs by somebody and I doubt any celestials go around handing out Corporeal Entropy (especially if they've got some Immortality Potions they want to shift). }:-) > >I think it's reasonable for humans who are ethereally talented (ie. at least >3 ethereal forces) to learn ethereal songs without needing special >attunements- I think the 'only corporeal songs' ruling was meant to show a dividing line between humans and celestials, to stop human characters becoming over-powered. As I say above though, it's not a matter of humans learning songs. Humans (and I presume celestials) have to be *taught* songs. The limiting factor for songs *should* be a GM with a good sense of game balance (and knowledge of his players). I expect the new songbook will clear some things up, so I won't make any more 'assumptions'. As usual, it comes down to the GM taking the responsibility to maintain the sort of game he, and his players, want. Pete Peter Witney peter.witney@kobal.demon.co.uk To share with each other / Virtues ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Nov 98 11:46 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Kyriotate of....DESTINY!!!! >You should be able to get them with the sheer noise that they'll be >making singing all those Corp Songs of Healing. Any Kyrio pulling the >trick of using martial arts through an unconditioned vessel had better >sing well, too. Suddenly leaping into frenzied combat after many years >of inactivity is not going to be good for the host at all. There's going >to be a lot of muscle trauma, and the Kyrio (using its own Strength) may >not neccessarily feel it in the heat of the moment. I've generally assumed that possessed vessels are *not* overstrained by possession, when the celestial is using its high strength or agility. While possessed, hosts become temporary vessels, being sustained miraculously without need for food, water, or sleep. I have no problem extending this to implausible physical feats. Otherwise, Kyrios possessing animal vessels are going to have a hard time doing anything useful with them except spying. >Not to mention the amount of stress placed on the most important muscle >of all - the one that beats 60-72 times a minute. As a temporary vessel, the host body may not even be breathing hard -- if the host needs no food, there shouldn't be any real muscle fatigue, either. Nor should the body necessarily heat up from energy expenditure, any more than vessels have problems with heat or cold temperatures. The normal metabolism is in suspension for the duration. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Nov 98 11:54 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Learning Songs >I think it's reasonable for humans who are ethereally talented (ie. at least >3 ethereal forces) to learn ethereal songs without needing special >attunements-- after all, most of those only simulate psychic abilities and >have nothing to do with the Ethereal realms, which doesn't seem too >unbalancing for exceptional mortals... Humans with 3 Ethereal Forces are probably the most likely to be drafted as Dream Soldiers, anyway, since they have an affinity for that realm. So getting that special attunement isn't all that unreasonable in their case. I'm not all that fond of the Song restriction, myself, but it was established in canon long before I started writing stuff. A human with low Forces in a realm is going to have a hard time messing with Songs in that realm, anyway, so the restriction isn't really all that important. The main reason I think this is here is the same reason Soldiers are required to have 2 Corp Forces -- the original game intent for such characters was to be able to fight and damage corporeal things without disturbance. I wouldn't enforce the 2 Corp Forces rule for Soldiers in my game, and I'm not sure what I'd do about Song access, either, if it came up. So far, it hasn't. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 16:38:57 +0000 From: Julian Breen Subject: Re: IN> Breathless... > I never liked that exact description for the reason. I >prefer to think that the breath is _symbolic_ of life and the >soul. So much so, that vessels must have this breathing to >connect them to the Symphony properly. Servitors of David >might disagree, however! > Not necessarily. *Chi* energy... - -- Julian ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Nov 98 11:57 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Learning Songs >I agree that song grenades look rather like a nice *game device* for >leveling the playing field between celestials and humans. That was partly what they were intended for. (They were one of my contributions to LR.) They were also intended for celestials who might need a particular Song for a given plot -- it's easier for the GM to give out a one-shot relic than send along an NPC with the Song, or a general-use artifact (that might not get returned quickly enough). - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 16:38:57 +0000 From: Julian Breen Subject: Re: IN> Breathless... > I never liked that exact description for the reason. I >prefer to think that the breath is _symbolic_ of life and the >soul. So much so, that vessels must have this breathing to >connect them to the Symphony properly. Servitors of David >might disagree, however! > Not necessarily. *Chi* energy... - -- Julian ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Nov 98 12:00 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Learning Songs >>I think it's reasonable for humans who are ethereally talented (ie. at least >>3 ethereal forces) to learn ethereal songs without needing special >>attunements- > >I think the 'only corporeal songs' ruling was meant to show a dividing line >between humans and celestials, to stop human characters becoming >over-powered. I think that's fairly close, actually -- there's a strong desire in canon writing to maintain clear distinctions between humans and human capabilities, and celestials and celestial ones. Saints are actually bad from that point of view, since they look, smell, and quack like celestials for the most part. Children of the Grigori are another potential overlap case. And Lilith, as always, is exceptional.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Nov 98 12:04 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Tear and Mustard >Core Rules says that celestials are affected by tear gas, but how far does >that ruling go? Does sleep gas knock them out, does poison gas kill them, >does helium send their voices squeaky? I would assume all of the above affect them, though they may be more resistant than the average human to such things. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 16:38:57 +0000 From: Julian Breen Subject: Re: IN> Breathless... > I never liked that exact description for the reason. I >prefer to think that the breath is _symbolic_ of life and the >soul. So much so, that vessels must have this breathing to >connect them to the Symphony properly. Servitors of David >might disagree, however! > Not necessarily. *Chi* energy... - -- Julian ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 18:40:02 +0000 () From: "David.Evans" Subject: Re: IN> Liber Servitorum John sic scribit: > > Paul wrote: > > > > The book of servitors(?) is on the horizon... > > There are no current plans. Awwww, poots. :-( I rather like the idea personally. > IMO, there never > will be such a book since all a servitor is, is another > character type in a weird sort of bondage. The amount > of material would be kinda slim. I dunno, GURPS supporting cast did rather well. It collected 100-odd-plus NPCs of varying genres in one book, with apage of stuff for each character, and _at_least_ three Adventure Seeds for each one. An In Nomine version would have either more background information or more Adventure Seeds (something I approve of muchly :) that GURPS Supp Cast did, as there would be less space needed for stats. Also about one-third of every page was taken up by artwork showing the NPC in question, somehting that could be lessened if neccessary, by dint of an Editorial decision. > The only way you could bulk up such a thing is > a LOT of example characters and some adventures, something > that SJ Games doesn't (usually) indulge in. Also a possibility too. :-) But not one I'd like unless the Adventures were *really* well written. > There ARE some more Liber book ideas swimming around > Austin, though. Really? Such as..? Be seeing you... David. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 13:54:26 EST From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Breathless... In a message dated 11/4/98 9:08:05 AM, jules@bigjules.demon.co.uk writes: >> I never liked that exact description for the reason. I >>prefer to think that the breath is _symbolic_ of life and the >>soul. So much so, that vessels must have this breathing to >>connect them to the Symphony properly. Servitors of David >>might disagree, however! >> >Not necessarily. > >*Chi* energy... >-- >Julian > Huh? I think I've just run into one of my esoteric areas of interest... In the Judeo-Christian worldview/tradition spirit is tied to breath in a literal sense. Ruach (Hebrew), Pneumos (Greek), and Spiritus (Latin) all mean both "breath" and "spirit" (they can also mean "wind," but that's another topic...). The mystical breath of life is also the literal act of breathing. This is the attraction of "angel's vessels must breathe," it implies that the vessels are supported by the spirit of the Symphony (the wind/air -- in my campaign Janus is extraordinarily powerful...). In the Eastern view, Ch'i is something else. It is not related to breath, except that breath or air can be used to help cleanse Ch'i. The closest parallel to Ch'i in Western thinking is electromagnetism. If you can, go compare a Ch'i flow chart for acupuncture with an anatomy drawing of the human nervous system. It's only one data point, but I don't have time to provide the others. Mark (Who has breathing on his mind a lot, right now...) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 14:29:50 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Tear and Mustard At 11:49 AM +0000 11/4/98, Peter Witney wrote: >A quick question, based on the 'how long can a celestial hold its breath' >/filter feeder thread. > >Core Rules says that celestials are affected by tear gas, but how far does >that ruling go? Does sleep gas knock them out, does poison gas kill them, >does helium send their voices squeaky? I'm inclined to say that the answer is that sleep gas knocks them out, poison gas damages them (to death, if they breathe too much of it), and helium makes 'em squeaky. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 14:54:57 EST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Re: IN- Re: Sex, lies and Celestials >> Dude! That's it!!! Gabriel's PREGNANT!!! >> >> Whee-hee!!! Wait till my _players_ find out! >:) > >Err, my wife never got violent when she was pregnant... moody at times >yes, but generally more sad or wistful than violent. The violent mood >swings were more prevalent when she WASN'T pregnant... Hormones are cool... Hrm... Discord... Hrm... New Ethereal Discord: Mood Swings: Whenever a stressful situation arises, roll versus Will with a penalty equal the to the level of this Discord you possess. On a failed roll, suffer an extreme emotion GM's choice or roll on the following (roll 2d6): 2 Manic 3-4 Angry 5-6 Anxious 7-8 Depressed 9-10 Emptiness 11 Contentment 12 Exhaustion 13 Fromageophilia (the love of cheesy movies of course) - -Perry, Kyriotate of Flowers serving Eli and sometimes Tanniael, Archangel of Tea. Perry M. Lloyd (spook_number_six@hotmail.com) "Remember, false hope is still hope." -Dilbert ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 15:03:55 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: IN> Musings on Corporeal Forces & Vessels The recent talk on Corporeal Forces and Vessels has made me realize how disconnected the two are. Strength, for instance, has nothing to do with the condition of the muscles in the vessel. (The fact that, in humans and other mortal life-forms, the two always correlate, must be an effect dependent on being truly incarnate instead of just embodied in a vessel. Maybe, if you are incarnate, your Corporeal Forces develop in response to the physical presence of your muscles.) Corporeal Forces in a celestial, then, appear to be used for functions somewhat like telekinesis, applied to the vessel. The vessel itself is, bluntly, so much window-dressing (and armor from non-Corporeal attack). According to the mainstream of medieval angelology, angels "appeared" with temporary, contingent bodies made of shaped air. That would fit in perfectly with the mechanics of Corporeal Forces and vessels, and would also explain why vessels need air, though nothing else. It would also imply that, on Corporeal death, a vessel goes poof! and disappears. I like that idea, though I gather it's non-canonical; slain vessels are, I gather, indistinguishable from regular corpses. That would imply that Superiors go to quite a lot of trouble in their window-dressing to pursue authenticity. I wonder, do they do that ALL the time, or might some vessels go poof while others go thud. If the vessel is a for-real slab of flesh and blood, vegetatively alive, then you have the opportunity for an interesting variation on the Remnant. Suppose a celestial is corporeally killed, and goes back home, but the vessel is not too messed up. In fact, it's only clinically dead, and some fast medical action revives it. What happens now? Does the vessel hang around in a coma or persistent vegatative state? That could make for a somewhat bizarre hospital visit for the celestial, after it gets out of trauma and into its next vessel. Does the vessel wake up with amnesia? Or with Earthly memories? Or with all the celestial's memories? The middle case is almost exactly like a remnant. The latter case produces an interesting person who is, at least for a while, under the delusion that they are a celestial -- a *particular* celestial that they could later meet face to face. If it wakes up at all, then it has presumably begun to grow its own soul, or at least acquire some Ethereal Forces -- and some Corporeal Forces, too, since these appear to hold body and soul together. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 15:10:03 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Sex, lies and Celestials At 2:54 PM -0500 11/4/98, Perry Lloyd wrote: >>The violent mood swings were more prevalent when she WASN'T pregnant... > >Hormones are cool... Hrm... Discord... Hrm... > >New Ethereal Discord: > >Mood Swings: Whenever a stressful situation arises, Stressful? Nononono. Stressful *or boring* situations. Trust me on this. (And don't leave me low on bloodsugar with nothing to do.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 15:21:25 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Sex, lies and Celestials Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >Mood Swings: Whenever a stressful situation arises, > > Stressful? Nononono. Stressful *or boring* situations. Trust me on > this. (And don't leave me low on bloodsugar with nothing to do.) But boredom is itself stressful, wouldn't you agree? Just short on adrenalin. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 15:24:57 EST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Re: IN- Kyriotates-careless children? >>As for being ridden for several days, yes, it would be unnerving to lack >>a few days of memories, but since I knew that I was being possess by an >>ANGEL OF HEAVEN, I'd assume that it would be okay. > >It might work quite well if a Kyrio and its human servants/ willing hosts >could agree to keep a journal, so that the host would note down useful >information such as which of his friends were in his good books, to which >alcoholic drinks he was particularly susceptible [Try to avoid red wine >because it gives me headaches but if you do get drunk, please drink at least >a pint of water before leaving...], any really important interviews or >meetings that he had to attend -- and the angel could also write up a diary >when it was in possession of the host, so that the owner could catch up >afterwards on what his body had been doing. Dude!!! That's awesome!!! I love it. :) >You know, this has possibilities. You could do a _lot_ worse than be a >servant to a Kyrio of Destiny, I think! > > >I'm imagining a Kyrio's servant who is really shy and wants to phone up >some other person and ask them on a date, begging the angel to possess them >and make the phone call ;-) Then I wonder if you could persuade the angel to >possess you and sit your exams, assuming it was better at the subject than >you were. Dude, I want an angel now. I think we have the workings of a decent In Nomine Sitcom: Angels within Us >>-sigh- Angels as rapists... well, whatever floats your boat, I >>suppose, just don't expect it to be true in MY campaign... > >I don't really think of them like that, but it's true that a Kyrio could >take great liberties with a borrowed host without getting dissonant. Yeppers. >jo >(But I'd still want to have words with it if I woke up pregnant) As would I.... especially me, since I'm male and all. :) - -Perry Perry M. Lloyd (spook_number_six@hotmail.com) "Remember, false hope is still hope." -Dilbert ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 20:25:16 +0000 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: IN> Breathless... At 13:54 04/11/98 EST, you wrote: > > >In the Judeo-Christian worldview/tradition spirit is tied to breath in a >literal sense. Ruach (Hebrew), Pneumos (Greek), and Spiritus (Latin) all mean >both "breath" and "spirit" (they can also mean "wind," but that's another >topic...). The mystical breath of life is also the literal act of breathing. >This is the attraction of "angel's vessels must breathe," it implies that the >vessels are supported by the spirit of the Symphony (the wind/air -- in my >campaign Janus is extraordinarily powerful...). > I was taking the same view, actually. In the verse at the beginning of Genesis which is usually translated 'the spirit of God moved over the face of the waters', the word they use for 'spirit of God' is ruach also. (ie. literally 'wind') jo ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 15:40:14 EST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Sex, lies and Celestials >>>The violent mood swings were more prevalent when she WASN'T pregnant... >> >>Hormones are cool... Hrm... Discord... Hrm... >> >>New Ethereal Discord: >> >>Mood Swings: Whenever a stressful situation arises, > >Stressful? Nononono. Stressful *or boring* situations. Trust me on >this. (And don't leave me low on bloodsugar with nothing to do.) Ohhh... low-blood sugar, looks like Perry the Hypoglycemic Kyriotate forgot that one! (I only have 2 Ethereal Forces, leave me alone...) Boredom? Well, I'd say more like "Anxiety from feeling like there's nothing that's meaningful for you to do: Existential Crisis City" - -Perry, KFC Perry M. Lloyd (spook_number_six@hotmail.com) "Remember, false hope is still hope." -Dilbert ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Nov 98 15:40 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Musings on Corporeal Forces & Vessels >It would also imply that, on Corporeal death, a vessel goes poof! and >disappears. > >I like that idea, though I gather it's non-canonical; slain vessels >are, I gather, indistinguishable from regular corpses. It wasn't clear for a while whether that was canon or not -- at one time, I thought that vessels did indeed vanish on death, but was later told they didn't. > Suppose a celestial is corporeally killed, and >goes back home, but the vessel is not too messed up. In fact, it's >only clinically dead, and some fast medical action revives it. In general, I think this can only happen with Malakim -- for other celestials, they're in Trauma, and their Forces may be tied to the vessel for a while at the beginning of Trauma. At least long enough for any revival to be possible. It may be that a celestial doesn't *really* break loose from a vessel when they're vessel-killed until what modern medicine considers full brain death has occurred. Or maybe even a bit longer. In most cases, that's only a matter of minutes, anyway. Anyway, it's hard for me to envision a circumstance that would "kill" a celestial (i.e., put them into Trauma) but leave the vessel intact enough to be revivifiable. About the only thing I can think of offhand is electrocution causing heart stoppage, which suggests celestials may be partly immune to that. >What happens now? I suspect it would show as totally brain-dead, and be capable only of being sustained on life support. The "vitalizing force", if you will, of the vessel is gone. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 15:46:53 EST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: IN> Shedim and the Marches Heh heh heh... Careful Chris and Ben, this may show up in one of my campaigns... :) So, here's the question: If a Shedim falls asleep while in a host, does he land in the Host's dreamscape? The host consciousness is still present when the Shedite possesses the body, right? So... - -Perry, Kyriotate of Flowers serving Creation and sometimes Tanniael, Archangel of Tea. Perry M. Lloyd (spook_number_six@hotmail.com) "Remember, false hope is still hope." -Dilbert ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 15:19:39 EST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Kyriotates-careless children? Okay, this is getting silly... >On Tue, Nov 03, 1998 at 04:05:29PM -0500, Perry Lloyd wrote: >> As for being ridden for several days, yes, it would be unnerving to lack >> a few days of memories, but since I knew that I was being possess by an >> ANGEL OF HEAVEN, I'd assume that it would be okay. > >I would definitely be pissed off to be possessed by anyone, and would want >an accounting of what they did while wearing my body. And I'd only forgive >them if what they did was very good within my own belief system. I would, of course, >require proof of what they had said. And I'd still be paranoid about >whether to believe any of what they said. Of course you would, the Balseraphs *are* paranoid. :) >> Also, I would RATHER be ridden by an Angel that had access to my memories >> so that it would be better able to pretend to be me, otherwise, my >> social life might just be impaired a bit. "Gee, Perry, you were acting >> REALLY strange last week." as opposed to "You're were possessed? I >> couldn't tell the difference." >> >On the other hand, I wouldn't want them rooting through my mind for all >the nasty thoughts I keep hidden from the rest of the world. I don't think >I'd be able to face them ever again. Who? The angel or yourself? Me, I know that everyone has their little dark secrets, it's only human, you: >Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. of course have many more. So, that's understandable. Me, I figure that if anyone pries my head open to see what's inside, they can look all they want since it's THEY who get to suffer from all the horrors in my head. :) And, since it's servitors of Destiny who can do it, I feel more or less secure. Now, if it were a Falling Servitor of Destiny, I'd be trouble... ick... - -Perry, KFC Perry M. Lloyd (spook_number_six@hotmail.com) "Remember, false hope is still hope." -Dilbert ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 18:44:37 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Learning Songs >>>And I love people who say "All will be revealed when book X" is published without saying anything more. ;)<<< Often those of us who are "in the loop" do give out details on the list. However, I personally don't feel like retyping tons of explanations just for people who are impatient (I mean, I already typed the whole darn book!) when it's perfectly valid to say "This will be in the book." If too many people feel entitled to have the book summarized for them before it's published (or at least, to have all the parts they are interested in summarized), I'm likely to just stop answering any questions. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 18:44:31 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Learning Songs > I suspect that superiors don't want humans running around with amazing > abilities. They are less easy to find (no hearts and cause less > disturbance) less easy to control (conflicting duties) and, being human, a > lot more corruptable and dangerous. It's not just that. Remember that to give a human an attunement allowing him to perform Ethereal or Celestial Songs is an expenditure, from the Superior's POV. An attunement is an investment. It's a lot more expensive than just giving a regular angelic/demonic Servitor the Songs. So, why would a Superior make that investment? Try to think of a situation where a Superior really *needs* a certain Song performed, and the performer _has_ to be a mortal. Remember, the Superior could just as easily (in fact, much more easily) give an angel or demon or celestial spirit the Song, or if it has to be a non-celestial, give a human a relic. Think of it this way: you're a military commander. You need a sniper in place with a high-powered rifle. You have lots of trained snipers in your army, with the necessary equipment on hand. Given a choice, would you rather send one of your soldiers, or recruit a civilian, teach him how to sharpshoot, and give him a military-issue weapon? Without a very compelling reason, it seems unlikely that you'd choose the latter. It's more expensive, more of a hassle, it means issuing dangerous equipment to someone who's probably not as reliable and accountable as your own men, and the civilian still isn't going to be as effective as one of your highly trained soldiers. So maybe you have lots of loyal civilians working for you, and maybe some of them are armed. But when it comes time to using the heavy equipment, the high-caliber weapons, you're not going to give it to your civilian helpers, you're going to keep it in the hands of your elite troops. And furthermore, particularly in the case of the Celestial Connection attunement, granting this attunement is allowing the mortal to tap into the Superior's own reserves (basically, the Superior has to open a conduit to the mortal that allows him to access normally inaccessible realms by going through the Superior). This is a tiny energy drain, but it is a drain. Lots of mortals with that attunement could add up to a significant expenditure, and even one isn't going to be allowed without a really good reason. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 15:50:06 -0800 From: "James Garrett" Subject: IN> Balseraph of Fate Hi, I've been lurking for quite awhile, but I now have a question. An NPC that I was running was a Balseraph of Fate with the Kyrio attunement. The PCs killed the human which the Balseraph possessed. Having the Kyrio attunement, he only used a few of his forces to possess the human. So, what do the PCs see when the Balseraph is ejected from the host? We finally agreed that it was a smaller, many-eyed, serpant-like celestial, but we couldn't find anything in the rules about it. Any ideas? Thanks, James james.garrett@tekelec.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 01:27:12 +0100 (CET) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Learning Songs On Wed, 4 Nov 1998, David Edelstein wrote: > >>>And I love people who say "All will be revealed when book X" is > published > without saying anything more. ;)<<< > > Often those of us who are "in the loop" do give out details on the list. > However, I personally don't feel like retyping tons of explanations just > for people who are impatient (I mean, I already typed the whole darn book!) > when it's perfectly valid to say "This will be in the book." If too many > people feel entitled to have the book summarized for them before it's > published (or at least, to have all the parts they are interested in > summarized), I'm likely to just stop answering any questions. I meant this as a slightly barbed, but mostly humourous comment - hence the (evil) smiley. I do appreciate that you don't want to answer every little question in detail, but it does get a bit frustrating when the books haven't showed up yet - especially since it takes extra time for them to get over here... :-/ Sorry if I offended, it was not my intent. Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! May you have the knowledge of a sage, and the wisdom of a child. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1005 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.