From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sun Nov 8 17:33:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA05495 for ; Sun, 8 Nov 1998 17:33:14 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id QAA26124 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sun, 8 Nov 1998 16:39:20 -0600 Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 16:39:20 -0600 Message-Id: <199811082239.QAA26124@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1008 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Sunday, November 8 1998 Volume 01 : Number 1008 In this digest: Re: IN> Symphony Void Re: IN> Symphony Void Re: IN> Symphony Void Re: IN> Symphony Void Re: IN> Remnants and Celestial Forces Re: IN> Symphony Void Re: IN> Symphony Void IN> Breathless... IN> Michael's Nature Re: IN> Breathless... Re: IN> Michael's Nature Re: IN> Breathless... Re: IN> Symphony Void Re: IN> In Nomatinee ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 10:55:41 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> Symphony Void On Sat, 7 Nov 1998, Setzer Gabbiani wrote: > > Example: Having an infinite number of apples doesn't > >mean that oranges can't exist. ;) > > > well if you have a finite space then it does technically mean that since > the infinite number of apples takes up all the space. Sorry for nitpicking Oh my God. I feel like I'm on the Planescape mailing list right now. :) Actually, I think he was trying to illustrate infinity with sets. There are an infinite amount of numbers between the numbers 1 and 2. However, that infinite amount of numbers does not occupy the space used up by the set of all numbers. An argument for multiple infinite Symphonies could be made the same way. If the Symphony of canonical In Nomine is infinite, then it occupies all of it's infinite space. But there could still be a infinitly large set of all possible Symphonies, with the canonical In Nomine Symphony just being one point in that set. Richard "Mr. Uriel" Gant Who is not a mathematician, and is now going to go take some tylenol because of the pounding headache he has developed from discussing infinite set theory. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit my web page: Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto Currently dedicated to In Nomine, Planescape, and Waste World - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 16:16:24 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Symphony Void On Sat, Nov 07, 1998 at 10:08:09AM -0500, Akumsa@aol.com wrote: > << Sorry for nitpicking >> > > A lot of people are doing this lately, you sure you all aren't serving Ken > Walsh? The name is Kevin, not Ken. Besides, I'm just in service to Beth. :) (If I don't correct it publicly, either people will think I am called Ken, or other people will send him messages.) Anyway, there's nothing wrong with nitpicking, where the nitpickers are accurate. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "From your first day in camp everyone will try to deceive and plunder you ... in camp no one ever does anything for nothing, no one does anything out of the generosity of his heart. You have to pay for everything. If someone proposes something that is unselfish, disinterested, you can be sure it's a dirty trick, a provocation." Alexander Solzhenitsyn, the Gulag Archipelago. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 11:40:19 -0500 From: Setzer Gabbiani Subject: Re: IN> Symphony Void A >Actually, I think he was trying to illustrate infinity with sets. There >are an infinite amount of numbers between the numbers 1 and 2. However, >that infinite amount of numbers does not occupy the space used up by the >set of all numbers. This is Xeno's arrow paradox for those who are curious. for an arrow to reach a target it must go half of the distance then half of that distance then half of the remaining distance ad infinitum Just for you information and stuff Ben Lilim of LARPs serving Malphas ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 16:54:47 +0000 (GMT) From: Steve Jessop Subject: Re: IN> Symphony Void On Thu, 5 Nov 1998, Perry Lloyd wrote: > So, what do YOU guys think would happen to a group of Angels suddenly > stuck in a place where the Symphony simply DID NOT EXIST? Ignoring the question of whether such a place exists, assume that an angel cannot 'hear' the Symphony. Then they are not celestially aware any more, just like a human before they become a soldier. So: 1) They can't detect disturbances, or use Resonances or Attunements, take Celestial form, and possibly they can't use essence. 2) If they use songs, then they can't hear them properly, like a deaf man singing. Since they've never been deaf before, they probably wouldn't get it right. Canonically, this shouldn't cause random effects (since if it did, celestials could do so whenever they felt like it), but in your game? 3) They suffer all the psychological trauma of losing their primary sensory ability. This might also include phantom sensations, and they'd probably walk into walls because they didn't hear them coming. ("Sight? Oh yes, I can see too can't I? I'll try using that.") 4) If the angels can't affect the Symphony either, then they can't do anything (since applying Strength is an interaction between Corporeal forces and the Symphony), like trying to play music in a vacuum, or rather trying to play music when you can't touch the air. Finally, if the Symphony really doesn't exist, then by definition neither do Essence or Forces, which are 'bits' of Symphonic power. Hence neither does life. Trying to exist would be like trying to exist in a vacuum which contains nothing. Including you. Steve. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 17:05:55 +0000 (GMT) From: Steve Jessop Subject: Re: IN> Remnants and Celestial Forces On Fri, 6 Nov 1998, -=|horsefly|=- wrote: > if the latter question is affirmative, wouldn't Superiors > have their servitors hunting down remnants more often to "draft" another > body for their side of the war? I wouldn't have thought so. OK, so you get a few free Corporeal and Ethereal forces, but not usually very many, and you have to cope with the fact that the result may well still be small and confused, and will have vague impulses left over from its old life. In any case you would probably be spending your time better trying to 'convert' someone a bit more sapient. Then again, in the case of a powerful remnant, or one who used to have very important information, then yes, find that sucker. Steve. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 14:44:17 -0600 From: Eeyore Subject: Re: IN> Symphony Void Setzer Gabbiani wrote: > A > >Actually, I think he was trying to illustrate infinity with sets. There > >are an infinite amount of numbers between the numbers 1 and 2. However, > >that infinite amount of numbers does not occupy the space used up by the > >set of all numbers. > > This is Xeno's arrow paradox for those who are curious. for an arrow to > reach a target it must go half of the distance then half of that distance > then half of the remaining distance ad infinitum Just for you information > and stuff Not really. First, Xeno's paradoxes explicity concern the material world; using them solely in an abstract mathematical context is pointless. Second, the continuous halving of distance is more closely akin to the Achilles and the tortoise paradox rather than the arrow paradox. The latter holds that at any given moment, an arrow in flight occupies a concrete position, which it can only do if it is at rest. Third, you have to keep in mind what Xeno was actually up to. His motion paradoxes were a specific attack on the Pythagoreans, who held that reality was made up of discrete units. If you assume that space and time are both continuous, (as Mr. Gant's statement does implicitly), then you escape from the paradoxes. Xeno will still disagree with you, but no one at the time made this argument (conceptually, it builds on calculus, which was a couple of millenia in the future), so we don'tknow how he would have responded. J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 12:47:23 -0800 (PST) From: Daniel Maberry <98fa040@dvc.edu> Subject: Re: IN> Symphony Void On Thu, 5 Nov 1998, Perry Lloyd wrote: > So, what do YOU guys think would happen to a group of Angels suddenly > stuck in a place where the Symphony simply DID NOT EXIST? Actually, I think Heaven and Hell covers this question quite nicely: they call it Limbo. If we even consider being ouside the Symphony a (meta)physical possibility, then I think Limbo would be it, whether it's a /place/ outside the Symphony or the /state/ of being outside the symphony. CLAVDIVS "It's a hundred and six miles to Chicago, we've A.K.A. Daniel Maberry got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark, and we're wearing sunglasses." 98fa040@dvc.edu "Hit it." ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 20:25:51 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Breathless... Message text written by INTERNET:in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >That actually makes a great deal of sense. Think about Songs and how they are performed. A celestial almost always needs to actually *sing* them< Incorrect. This is only true if their skill level is low. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 20:27:34 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Michael's Nature >Mind you, he lies his arse off in the adventure seed in the back of Liber. Reliq., so perhaps you are right and he is indeed dissonant. Back to the 'Falling Michael' thread... < Err, no, he doesn't. He is a bit parsimonious with the full truth (one could argue that this is skirting dissonance for a Seraph), but he doesn't lie. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 20:51:28 -0500 (EST) From: Eslin Subject: Re: IN> Breathless... On Sat, 7 Nov 1998, David Edelstein wrote: >> performed. A celestial almost always needs to actually *sing* them< > > Incorrect. This is only true if their skill level is low. I don't know about you, David, but I have yet to see a PC Angel with a song at higher than 3. Possibly this is unique to the groups I play in... - Eslin / Chephirah, Cherub of Destiny ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Nov 1998 03:38:47 +0000 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: IN> Michael's Nature At 20:27 07/11/98 -0500, you wrote: >He is a bit parsimonious with the full truth (one >could argue that this is skirting dissonance for a Seraph), but he doesn't >lie. > Being 'economical with the truth' is a well-known euphemism for lying one's arse off here (the phrase was used in court by one of Mrs Thatcher's press secretarys). jo ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Nov 1998 11:58:30 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Breathless... On Sat, Nov 07, 1998 at 08:51:28PM -0500, Eslin wrote: > I don't know about you, David, but I have yet to see a PC Angel > with a song at higher than 3. Possibly this is unique to the groups I > play in... > Considering Songs are next to useless at levels 1 and 2, this may well be unique to the groups you play in. I also think a few Songs at medium levels is more realistic than many at low levels (the opposite of the case for skills). After all, why bother teaching your Servitors new Songs if they couldn't be bothered to improve their skills with the old? Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "From your first day in camp everyone will try to deceive and plunder you ... in camp no one ever does anything for nothing, no one does anything out of the generosity of his heart. You have to pay for everything. If someone proposes something that is unselfish, disinterested, you can be sure it's a dirty trick, a provocation." Alexander Solzhenitsyn, the Gulag Archipelago. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 10:46:35 EST From: Akumsa@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Symphony Void Oh errr Sorry there kevin ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Nov 1998 16:58:56 -0500 From: Nana Yaw Ofori Subject: Re: IN> In Nomatinee Nice. I've wanted to sneak in the Scooby-Doo gang into an In Nomine campaign, though most of my ideas were a bit less fanciful. \|=) I've just got one quibble. At 11:29 AM +0000 11/3/98, Julian Breen wrote: >Davey is one of those rare mortals born with a sixth force. It was his >Destiny to become a Dream Soldier of Heaven and his Fate was to be a >stillborn breech birth. As Fates go, isn't this one a little harsh? Meeting your Fate seems to be a one-way ticket to Hell, and this one involves no personal choice on Davey's part. ===== ><{{"> =================================================== <"}}>< ====== Nana-Yaw "The Fish" Ofori, Freelance Soldier of Heck, presenty serving Winslow, Habbalite Inspector of Technology, the Demon of Spaceflight. nofori@pop3.utoledo.edu | Homepage: http://members.tripod.com/~maltesh maltesh@usa.net | In Nomine: http://members.tripod.com/~maltesh/T317 ===== ><{{"> ============ "Life's a Fish, then you Fry." ======= <"}}>< ====== ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1008 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.