From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Nov 9 19:43:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA23178 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 19:43:33 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id SAA01741 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 18:44:20 -0600 Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 18:44:20 -0600 Message-Id: <199811100044.SAA01741@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1009 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, November 9 1998 Volume 01 : Number 1009 In this digest: IN> Adventure Seed : One Cup, Two Cup... Re: IN> Breathless... IN> Lilith and Freedom Re: IN> Breathless... Re: IN> Lilith and Freedom Re: IN> Lilith and Freedom Re: IN> Remnants and Celestial Forces Re: IN> Remnants and Celestial Forces Re: IN> Symphony Void Re: IN> Symphony Void Re: IN> Remnants and Celestial Forces Re: IN> Lilith and Freedom Re: IN> Remnants and Celestial Forces IN> Geases... Re: IN> Lilith and Freedom Re: IN> Lilith and Freedom ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 00:03:03 GMT From: maya@tcp.co.uk (GR Cogman) Subject: IN> Adventure Seed : One Cup, Two Cup... One Cup, Two Cup... - ------------------- This plot seed was (as people can probably guess) worked out while I was being driven mildly insane by the amount of World Cup coverage going the rounds. It's also probably not very practical unless you're in a very vigorous/cinematic campaign. Still... "Look." The thin man's legs bicycled as he dangled in the larger figure's grasp. "Have I ever got you into trouble before?" "Often," one of the other figures in the shadows muttered. "It's perfectly simple." He tried wriggling to see if it would help. "I'd already got the cup out of that big collection - don't ask where, it really wouldn't help matters, you don't want to know, trust me - and I'm *convinced* it was the Grail, or something close." "How do you get close to the Grail?" the larger figure asked, curiously. "Whatever." The dangling figure snorted. "But then I realised *THEY* were on my tail, and I had to ditch it fast. So I swopped it for this other cup along the way, let them see me carrying a cup, dropped the other cup off in this antiques place, and I was just going back to get the first one..." "When we caught you," the figure in the shadows commented. "It was all going just fine," the dangling man muttered. "And you failed to notice that you'd picked up the *World Cup*?" The dangling figure tried to shrug. "What can I say? It'll bring change and enthusiasm into their boring, dull, humdrum lives..." The shake he got made his teeth click together. "Oh, all right," he muttered. "I'll help you put it back. Well, I would do, but I'm out of time here. Dissonance. You wouldn't want me to get dissonant, would you?" There was a snort from one of the other shadowy figures. "Look," he said desperately, "I'll tell you where everything is. It's not as if it'd be hard, just going in there and putting it back..." - --- Depending on whether you want to run an angelic or demonic campaign, a Servitor of Wind (or Theft) managed to relieve a wealthy art-collector of what he believes might be the Holy Grail. He then found himself with demons (or angels) on his tail, and was forced to do a quick swap of cups, using the nearest large cup-shaped object. Well, all right, perhaps the security on the other cup was a _little_ high, but what's life without a challenge? World Cup? He doesn't follow football. However, he's about to have to leave the city or collect dissonance. It also happens that this is the day of the Cup Final. All the team of angels (or demons) need to do is collect the World Cup from the antiques shop where he ditched it, then sneak into the big sports stadium and swop it back for the other Cup he stole. (Is it the Grail? No. Is there something weird about it? Probably. Sort to your own campaign.) While avoiding that squad of demons (or angels) who were on his tail, and all the mortal security, and perhaps watching the Cup Final while they're at it... (that isn't really Novalis down there screaming on the terraces in a bobble hat and scarf? Is it?) - --- Maya, Elohite of Eli in service to Blandine maya@tcp.co.uk - -- "There are those who say that wizards are subject to temptations and addictions beyond the understanding of ordinary men: the addiction to shape-changing, or to meditation under the influence of certain herbs and conditions of the stars; the obsession with knowledge, and the development of power. Yet this is not so. Temptation is temptation, obsession is obsession, and choice is choice." - Isar Chelladan, Precepts of Wizardry. -- "Dog Wizard", Barbara Hambly. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 10:31:45 EST From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Breathless... In a message dated 11/7/98 5:42:59 PM, AmadanSJG@compuserve.com writes: >Message text written by INTERNET:in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > >>That actually makes a great deal of sense. Think about Songs and how they > >are > >performed. A celestial almost always needs to actually *sing* them< > > > >Incorrect. This is only true if their skill level is low. > > > >-David > Hrm? Oh yeah, the "obviousness" rule. I thought that that meant that you were singing "under your breath," not not singing at all. Was I working with a house rule without knowing it *again*? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 14:25:59 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: IN> Lilith and Freedom I know that this topic has been bantered back and forth here a bit, but I figured I'd just toss my hat in the ring. This line of thought started with a fleeting idea on Saturday of writing down some concepts for Fiat, namely on an upcoming IC conversation some time in the vaguely near future for my recently Bright but rather neurotic Lilim about "Why I'm not all broken up that I won't be invited to the Lilim Christmas Party this year." But like all good thoughts that happen when I'm brushing my teeth in the morning, it started to take on a life of it's own. The focus here is Why Lilith is not a Nice Feminist Figure and Really Is Rather Dark, Evil, and Nasty, and the Role of Freedom in Hell. After some thought, I came to the realization that Lilith's Word is every bit as dark and nasty as, say, Malphas or Asmodeus. I reread the treatment of Lilith in FotM, and decided that I not only disagreed, but felt that the treatment only looked at one half of the story - the nice side. I need to hit the western philosophical bright spots to get into the nitty gritty here, so just bear with me. [I'm referring to tons of philosophers here - Hume, Nagel, Campbell, Kant, Kierkegaard, etc. I don't have my books with me, as they weight a ton, so references will be on request basis.] Free Will and Determinism - ------------------------- Like many other major questions in In Nomine, not only has this been answered, but it's been answered completely and then swept under the carpet as "Canon Doubt and Uncertainty" - which it is not. The In Nomine universe is entirely deterministic by definition. There are clearly marked Divinely ordained final paths to life which are predetermined at the beginning of the universe. In Nomine calls these "Fate" and "Destiny", and states that these are the end markers to a being's life and achievements. There is no philosophical rule that states the predetermined path for a beings life cannot be a "one or the other", simply that it is preordained by God outside of the being's own existance. Ergo, it is an endpoint defined from external actions imposed by the universe, not from internal choices. For angels and demons, it is to either exist and end one's existance as either an angel or a demon. For humans, it's more complicated, but it's still defined, noteably by examples given by those on Fate and Destiny. Highest heights and lowest lows are still predetermined by outside forces, and therefore precludes universal Free Will. It only allows free will on a basic, choice by choice manner. The response is, "But we have to make decisions on choices that can be made on a regular basis, and these form free will." That does not preclude the universe from being deterministic. That is the basis of free will of interest further on, though, which is defined as "the ability to make a decision based on moral obligations _when it is the subject's choice_." There are plenty of demonstrations of this in principle - the drug addict who does not want to take the drug but does so because it is not his choice, etc. etc. These choices might further be proven to not be choices at all, but based on certain necessary desires in which to fulfill one's predetermined Fate or Destiny - the need to be essentially good and philanthropic, or the need to rape and murder. What is of interest here are those moral obligations, and the ability to make a choice, even when the end of one's existence is already defined. So it becomes an issue of making choices when they can be made based on ethics. Morals and Law - -------------- Interestingly, the game universe also puts forth the absolute correctness of Kant's postulated theories on the ethical constructs of the Universe being built in by God. The important focus here is the concept of Universal Natural Law, or the laws which are considered "correct" because they were built into the fabric of the universe by God and they are considered moral and ethical absolutes. These are such things as "Thou shalt not kill" and "Thou shalt not commit harm to another." Universal Natural Law (or universal law of nature, which was how Kant put it) is implemented in the game universe through the use of Dominic, and his execution thereof. The Seraph has built in by the system the ability to use his own nature to extract the particulars of the law from the universe around him and apply it to the judgment of situations. Additionally, the checks and balances system of dissonance and discord further reinforce the global notion of universal law inherent in the system. This does not mean that universal law is the equivalent of human law, for it often isn't - angels and demons might flagarantly murder human beings or each other without violating it in any way. It may be expressed in bits and pieces among mankind, but God's law is fully realized, and often inexplicable. This follows along in logic that one can prove the existance of God purely on moral grounds, but since God is an absolute in the game system, the proof is of no consequence. Freedom and Law - --------------- Lilith's Freedom is not based on strictly human definitions, but the universal definition of the Law as dictated by God. This is first demonstrated when she decided to leave the Garden of Eden because she didn't like her sexual arrangements, which sent her on her path to her Fate instead of her Destiny. When the question comes up about making a choice based on moral obligations, the Word of Freedom flagarantly ignores them and makes a choice based on personal qualifications. Morality, in fact, doesn't even come into the picture. Such things are pointed to as the Freedom of speech, the Freedom from being tortured, the Freedom to bear arms. These are not, in actuality, God given freedoms. These are _rights_ given by law and protected by law in the country of the United States, and upheld in a court system. They are not granted in any way by Heaven or God. They are not implied by the heavenly order. An implied Freedom in the context of Hell would be the ability to flagarantly disregard someone else's freedom of speech by repressing it with their own, or to drag someone down to their basement and butcher them slowly because it clearly violates the law which is given by the country and the area. It implies a lack of contraint, moral or otherwise, in one's choices when given the ability to choose. One's innate freedoms are often defined by the laws of the governing country, or by the innate freedoms built into the framework of the universe. A hellish word of freedom disregards those protected by law and implies that it is freedom only for the individual and not for the community at large. Freedoms of the community, which are often protected by law and backed up by a policing body, are of no consequence. The Word of Freedom - ------------------- The word of Freedom is consigned to the ranks of Hell because it has taken the route of ignoring moral obligations and ethical responsibility. It is Freedom only for the sole individual, with complete disregard to the universal law built into the fabric of the world at large. For example, one might supply a group of "freedom fighters" in Rwanda with guns, and turn away when they decide to mow down all of the elementary students with M11A1's in cold blood, simply because they are trying to implement a government, despotic or no, which serves the freedoms of the supplier. Or one might call upon St. Gullitine to cut off the heads of 10000 people and throw their bodies in a ditch in the name of Liberty, and not worry about the rats and the disease. Further, this can be taken down a darker road. The Word of Freedom implies not only a freedom from moral obligations, but from all responsibility of the outcome of their actions. If one is turned off from the outcomes of one's decision, this may be the Freedom from having to make decisions in the first place. In time, this may become the freedom from having to think, the freedom from having to do, the freedom for having to take any responsibility for oneself at all. The world dominated by the Word of Freedom is not one of freedom fighers and Lilith Festivals and good music; it's a world where no one needs to be troubled to ever think for themselves again. It's the ultimate freeing experience. The word of Freedom is the ultimate word of the Status Quo. They put up on the concentration camps that Arbeit macht frei, and in the eyes of Freedom this can only be a good thing. The only one truly free is the Lawmaker, who ignores all other laws accept her own. Geasa - ----- This is mostly a segue. I found it interesting that the game actually, unconscious or not, has the mechanism in place to facility Freedom as Slavery. An invoked geas is a complete removal of the ability to choose. It forces upon the bearer the laws, needs, and machinations of the lawmaker, the Lilim in question, and to carry through the wants and needs of invoker. The geas represents the ultimate freedom for the bearer, the ability to not have to think or care or worry, but just to _do_, and in turn the Lilim gets the freedom to have done what she wants without the need to worry about the Laws of God, which includes the ability to make a moral choice when the opportunity is available. Geasa are a break in the natural laws of god, which is to allow humans to progress to their predetermined fate or destiny unmolested. This gets to the root of the word - it is a freedom from the natural law which protects the rights and lives of other celestial and corporeal beings, and therefore is consigned to Hell for eternity. Conclusion - ---------- What, there's a conclusion? I'm out of juice, so ferget it. Please send comments or money. Money is much more valuable then comments! :) - - Em, Balseraph of the Game, Demon of Playing IN Backwards ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 19:36:01 +0000 From: Peter Witney Subject: Re: IN> Breathless... At 10:31 AM 11/9/98 EST, someone wrote: >> >>>That actually makes a great deal of sense. Think about Songs and how they are >>>performed. A celestial almost always needs to actually *sing* them< >>Incorrect. This is only true if their skill level is low. >>-David >> >Hrm? Oh yeah, the "obviousness" rule. I thought that that meant that you were >singing "under your breath," not not singing at all. Was I working with a >house rule without knowing it *again*? There was a remark a few days back about PCs and the level they take songs at. Songs, went the idea, are usually taken high, so that they have more chance at working, as opposed to skills which can be taken at the one or two point level since they add to the (higher) characteristics. I've had a look at the PCs which use to run in my last campaign and by far and away the most popular song level is 3. Level 3 is the point at which a 50% success rate is possible (especially with a few moments to prepare). It also allows silent invocation/no gesticulating, making it more flexible and useful in moe situations. There was only one PC who had a song at level 6 and that was for a realm in which he only had two forces- the song was defensive and closed a rather nasty weakness in the character ( just over half of the time). The songs at level 1 were generally 'emergency' back-up songs (cynically the "I've run out of options, might as well try it" idea) or songs where speed is often less important: healing, attraction, dreams and tongues. This resulted in nicely rounded characters without the munchkin levels of one extreme or the almost useless levels of the other. Getting back to the original point, whatever the metaphysical and philosophical reasons for breathing, for game purposes, it is beautifully symbolic of a link to the symphony. Without it, vessels might seem physiologically cut off from the rest of the the world. The rule of Breath also provides the GM with ways of slowing the characters without resorting to serious violence of the clubbing sort, or loud songs. It's another useful restriction on celestials, making them consider such possibilities as vacuum, drowning, gassing and other *mundane* problems. Pete peter.witney@kobal.demon.co.uk Habbalah of Kobal, in service to the Demon of Critics ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 14:15:35 -0600 From: Bob the Dancing Monkey Subject: Re: IN> Lilith and Freedom Re: Em's posting on the conept of Freedom. > [snip] > And the crowd goes wild! Seriously, thank you Em. Freedom is a dangerous, dangerous word that is just as frightening as War or Factions. There is nothing that is necessarily 'nice' about freedom - just that our country has glorified it due to many of its positive uses. I was rather displeased with the shiny-happy quality of the Lilith treatment in FotM. She's a fascinating character, but nice or even a somewhat benevolent wild card, she is not...In the collection of geases, Lilith reminds me of the woman in the Phantom Tollbooth that collected all of the sound in her country so that she could properly take care of it and catalogue it without allowing anyone else to have it. - -Drew [O] Drew Johnson - CLA - Office of Info Tech [O] x5-4885 - http://www.econ.umn.edu/~djohnson/ [O] djohnson@cla.umn.edu - ICQ: 10800645 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 06:31:52 +1100 From: "Patrick O'Duffy" Subject: Re: IN> Lilith and Freedom Emily Dresner wrote: > The focus here is Why Lilith is not a Nice Feminist Figure and Really Is > Rather Dark, Evil, and Nasty, and the Role of Freedom in Hell. After some > thought, I came to the realization that Lilith's Word is every bit as > dark and nasty as, say, Malphas or Asmodeus. I reread the treatment of > Lilith in FotM, and decided that I not only disagreed, but felt that the > treatment only looked at one half of the story - the nice side. [snip of absolutely everything relevant] Just a comment that this is _good_stuff_, Emily. While my philosophy is more than a little rusty (more than 5 years now since I worked on my degree), all the arguments seem sound, and you've managed to push the point across (to me, at least) of why Lilith is a Demon Princess. I Love It. - -- Patrick O'Duffy, Brisbane, Australia Sympathy? Not for me. No mercy for a criminal freak in Las Vegas. This place is like the Army: the shark ethic prevails - eat the wounded. In a closed society where everybody's guilty, the only crime is getting caught. In a world of thieves, the only final sin is stupidity. HUNTER S. THOMPSON, "Fear & Loathing in Las Vegas" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Nov 98 16:04 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Remnants and Celestial Forces >> Would it be possible for it to be neither angel nor demon? > >Not in canon. At weirdest, you get a reliver (which is 99% likely to >fledge as the former Choir) or demonling (ditto, former Band). Actually, while it's true that a *whole* celestial cannot change into something else (e.g., a human soul) and vice-versa, I think I'd say canon is silent on what a 0-Cel. Force entity could turn into. If the celestial nature (or human nature) is specifically based on what sort of Celestial Forces the creature has, then a 0-Cel. Force entity isn't *any* of the above. In fact, it's not exactly even an entity as In Nomine defines such -- it's totally soulless, which nothing else is. So I think I'd say it's possible that a Remnant might *become* a human. Of course, it's a *new* human soul, if it somehow gained a human-flavor Celestial Force. Kind of weird, but then, Remnants *are*.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 15:36:20 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Remnants and Celestial Forces At 11:23 PM -0800 11/6/98, -=|horsefly|=- wrote: >On Fri, 6 Nov 1998, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >> At 12:19 PM -0500 11/6/98, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >> >Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > [snip] >> >If the new Celestial Force came >> >from a Superior, they certainly get to decide the issue. >> At least, decide Band/Choir. (Princes get Bands. Archangels get >> Choirs.) I would probably say that the Band/Choir would be the >> same as the "old" Nature -- a Seraph remnant turns back into a Seraph. >> Or a Balseraph, if it's a Prince gluing the Forces back on. > [snip] okay, but what if a Superior from the other side grants a >Celestial Force to the remnant in question (for whatever reason). does >the Remnant spontaneously Redeem/Fall? Sounds like what I'd do in any game of mine, 90% of the time. (With that odd 10% to keep Superiors on their toes.) > is that even an issue since it's a >new celestial being and the Superior is making a patchwork critter, so >that whatever side the Superior serves will dictate the creation's >allegiance? Exactly. >if the latter question is affirmative, wouldn't Superiors >have their servitors hunting down remnants more often to "draft" another >body for their side of the war? Why bother doing that when you can create a new one which won't have a shadowy past to haunt it, and doesn't take either lucky happenstance or a lot of searching to find? - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 15:37:27 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Symphony Void At 10:08 AM -0500 11/7/98, Akumsa@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 11/7/98 4:43:40 AM Eastern Standard Time, >anders@strindberg.ling.uu.se writes: > ><< Sorry for nitpicking >> > >A lot of people are doing this lately, you sure you all aren't serving Ken >Walsh? No, they're serving *my* Word. Though sometimes it's more useful to me than other times, of course. - --Beth, Demon Princess of Nitpicking http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/articles/INChar/Demons/Prince.Beth.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Nov 98 16:11 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Symphony Void >> So, what do YOU guys think would happen to a group of Angels suddenly >> stuck in a place where the Symphony simply DID NOT EXIST? > >Actually, I think Heaven and Hell covers this question quite nicely: they >call it Limbo. > >If we even consider being ouside the Symphony a (meta)physical >possibility, then I think Limbo would be it, whether it's a /place/ >outside the Symphony or the /state/ of being outside the symphony. That's probably the way I'd handle it. In fact, in my game, there are celestials that speculate that Limbo is the place where God was before he did the "Fiat lux!" number.... After all, there's nothing there but *you*, and if you stay there long enough, you can accumulate a *lot* of Essence, if you can figure out something to do with it. In this model, God did.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 16:23:51 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Remnants and Celestial Forces Shortly before Pyramid went online, Derek Pearcy published a little article in which he circulated what I can only call a Canonical Rumor that Michelangelo was the Remnant of the late Archangel Raphael. But it seems implausible to say that Michelangelo was totally lacking in Will or Perception. So, assuming the truth of this rumor, did the Archangel (Yves was it?) who found this Remnant endow it with some Celestial Forces and create a human soul? Or was Michelangelo not really human? Or did he acquire his Celestial Forces some other way? (I suppose that, with a 111, anything would be possible.) Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 16:34:59 -0600 From: Eeyore Subject: Re: IN> Lilith and Freedom Emily Dresner wrote: > Free Will and Determinism > ------------------------- > > The In Nomine universe is entirely deterministic by definition. There are > clearly marked Divinely ordained final paths to life which are > predetermined at the beginning of the universe. In Nomine calls these > "Fate" and "Destiny", and states that these are the end markers to a > being's life and achievements. There is no philosophical rule that states > the predetermined path for a beings life cannot be a "one or the other", > simply that it is preordained by God outside of the being's own > existance. Ergo, it is an endpoint defined from external actions imposed > by the universe, not from internal choices. For angels and demons, it is > to either exist and end one's existance as either an angel or a demon. > For humans, it's more complicated, but it's still defined, noteably by > examples given by those on Fate and Destiny. Highest heights and lowest > lows are still predetermined by outside forces, and therefore precludes > universal Free Will. It only allows free will on a basic, choice by > choice manner. > > The response is, "But we have to make decisions on choices that can be > made on a regular basis, and these form free will." That does not > preclude the universe from being deterministic. That is the basis of free > will of interest further on, though, which is defined as "the ability to > make a decision based on moral obligations _when it is the subject's > choice_." There are plenty of demonstrations of this in principle - the > drug addict who does not want to take the drug but does so because it is > not his choice, etc. etc. These choices might further be proven to not be > choices at all, but based on certain necessary desires in which to fulfill > one's predetermined Fate or Destiny - the need to be essentially good and > philanthropic, or the need to rape and murder. This doesn't follow. It is stated in canon that most humans achieve neither their Fate nor their Destiny; a few achieve both. The rest fall somewhere in between. It is unclear whether there are a finite or infinite number of possible endpoints (it depends on whether the spectrum is continuous or discrete, he says, triumphantly concluding that this weekend's post _wasn't_ completely off-topic), but there are certainly more than two. While this doesn't necessarily have implications in free will vs. determinism, I submit that it makes the former more likely than your post implies. There are a _lot_ of binary choices involved in the process of heading towards Fate or Destiny even in your description, and the fact that most don't get there suggests that there is more at work than being impelled one way or the other. > Morals and Law > -------------- > > Universal Natural Law (or universal law of nature, which was how Kant put > it) is implemented in the game universe through the use of Dominic, and > his execution thereof. The Seraph has built in by the system the ability > to use his own nature to extract the particulars of the law from the > universe around him and apply it to the judgment of situations. This relies upon the idea that Dominic always gets it right, an idea to which canon doesn't speak. The descriptions of Michael's trial can be interpreted to mean either that Dominic was right, but God pardoned Michael anyways, or that Dominic was wrong. Ditto any number of other bits. > Additionally, the checks and balances system of dissonance and discord > further reinforce the global notion of universal law inherent in the > system. This does not mean that universal law is the equivalent of human > law, for it often isn't - angels and demons might flagarantly murder human > beings or each other without violating it in any way. It may be expressed > in bits and pieces among mankind, but God's law is fully realized, and > often inexplicable. Dissonance actually hinders the idea of a universal law. Dissonance conditions are radically different between choirs and superiors, to say nothing of between the divine and the infernal. If this is universal law, it's of a strange and flexible nature. > This follows along in logic that one can prove the existance of God purely > on moral grounds, but since God is an absolute in the game system, the > proof is of no consequence. I disagree with both parts of this paragraph. As stated above, the law is not universal. That it is part of a celestial's inherent nature does not speak to its origins. And while the existence of God is a given in the game system, the _nature_ of God is very vague. If you could, indeed, prove his/her/its existence by moral reasoning, it would say a lot. > The Word of Freedom > ------------------- > > The word of Freedom is consigned to the ranks of Hell because it has taken > the route of ignoring moral obligations and ethical responsibility. It is > Freedom only for the sole individual, with complete disregard to the > universal law built into the fabric of the world at large. For all of the quibbles above, at this point I start to agree. I agree that a universal law at work is, "You're going to play the game the way I tell you to," without necessarily stopping at the same waypoints you do. However, there are still questions about the nature of God (best exemplified in the ambiguity of the nature of Yves & Kronos) that are unanswered. For instance, we still have possibility that the War is God having a dialogue with himself; in this case, Freedom may be on the infernal side for similar reasons, but it puts a whole different spin on 'universal law'. > Further, this can be taken down a darker road. The Word of Freedom > implies not only a freedom from moral obligations, but from all > responsibility of the outcome of their actions. If one is turned off > from the outcomes of one's decision, this may be the Freedom from having > to make decisions in the first place. In time, this may become the > freedom from having to think, the freedom from having to do, the freedom > for having to take any responsibility for oneself at all. The world > dominated by the Word of Freedom is not one of freedom fighers and Lilith > Festivals and good music; it's a world where no one needs to be troubled > to ever think for themselves again. It's the ultimate freeing experience. > The word of Freedom is the ultimate word of the Status Quo. They put up > on the concentration camps that Arbeit macht frei, and in the eyes of > Freedom this can only be a good thing. You string together an awful lot of conditional statements to make it to this conclusion. Suffice it to say that I can see a few Lilim making it this far down the chain, but even in the pre-FotM descriptions of Lilith, I'm not buying that she herself makes past about the third link. > The only one truly free is the Lawmaker, who ignores all other laws accept > her own. True. But the word of Freedom is served by having as many different Lawmakers as possible. This is where the dramatic tension of Lilith's character comes in. She is caught between her own selfish nature and the fact that her Word is served by everyone else acting on their own. > Geasa > ----- > > This is mostly a segue. I found it interesting that the game actually, > unconscious or not, has the mechanism in place to facility Freedom as > Slavery. An invoked geas is a complete removal of the ability to choose. > It forces upon the bearer the laws, needs, and machinations of the > lawmaker, the Lilim in question, and to carry through the wants and needs > of invoker. The geas represents the ultimate freedom for the bearer, the > ability to not have to think or care or worry, but just to _do_, and in > turn the Lilim gets the freedom to have done what she wants without the > need to worry about the Laws of God, which includes the ability to make a > moral choice when the opportunity is available. This is an interpretation that I wholly disagree with. The dominant paradigm of geasa is _not_ slavery; it's contract law. Granted, it's not contract law as practiced in Anglo-Saxon culture (little bits like informed consent often getting left out), but it inherently involves an exchange of value. This value is not simply being relieved of the necessity of future decision making, that's just an added bonus. > Geasa are a break in the natural laws of god, which is to allow humans to > progress to their predetermined fate or destiny unmolested. This gets to > the root of the word - it is a freedom from the natural law which > protects the rights and lives of other celestial and corporeal beings, and > therefore is consigned to Hell for eternity. What's molestation? I'm playing a Menunite in an upcoming game, and I think _all_ of you are in it up to your elbows. Exactly why is a Lilim putting a geas on someone any more an interference with someone heading to their Destiny or Fate than a Kyriotate coming along and saving that same person from an avalanche? Or a Malakite deciding that you've made quite enough progress towards that Fate of yours and it's time to stop this trip right now? > Conclusion > ---------- > > What, there's a conclusion? I'm out of juice, so ferget it. Please send > comments or money. Money is much more valuable then comments! :) Comments I give; my money, I keep. Or, at least, I spend it on things that you didn't give out for free. I do have a conclusion, though. I agree with your basic premise that Lilith has been lightened up along the way. I also think that this has made her somewhat less interesting as a character; she needs some darkening up RIGHT NOW. Thirdly, I agree with the basic thrust of the post that there are some good reasons why the Word of Freedom is infernal, though there are some countervailing ones that condemn it to being in the gray area. You even have a good grasp on what these reasons are. I'm just not sure that some of the steps you take to justify this are solid. Michael ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 16:40:19 -0600 From: Eeyore Subject: Re: IN> Remnants and Celestial Forces Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > Why bother doing that when you can create a new one which won't have > a shadowy past to haunt it, and doesn't take either lucky happenstance > or a lot of searching to find? This gets to a question I've been meaning to ask about Remnants. Some of them, at least, shouldn't be that hard to find. If they had a Role, they drop into it; anyone that knew that celestial in that Role shouldn't have any problem tracking them down. Even if they didn't have a Role, they usually drop into the Corporeal plane where they left it. If you know where this was and have a good description of the vessel, you should have some length of time before the trail goes cold. J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 18:18:26 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Geases... You know what Geases really are, don't you? I just realized it. (Mind you, I'm tired and hungry right now, and definitely not speaking canon...) You see, for some reason I've always thought that Lilith had the ability to Geas *before* she got her Word. Some trick the ethereals taught her or something. Something natural to herself. Dunno. But then she goes and has all these kids. Daughters. And they call her Mother. And she can Geas them, and they geas others. And they don't have to roll anything to do it. Once they fulfill a Need they see, they can just *ask*. So there's obviously some kind of Symphonic "Fair Deal" thing. (Okay, so it's twisted a little; they're demons. Deal with it.) But the point still stands. One assumes that the Geas compels. And if you go against it, it's painful. So you see, what it is, is a *Symphonic Guilt Trip*. You remember all the times your mother/father/authority figure said, "I'm so disappointed in you"? Your Significant Other gently reminded you that it was his/her birthday? Your kid was in the school play and you weren't there? Guilt trip. You have to make it up to 'em. This is why Lilith's Daughters owe her. She worked and she slaved and she did everything so that they could live, and they had damn well better be grateful. Quick, stick a stereotypical "Jewish Mother" accent onto her. Then run away.... Is that the doorbell? Excuse me. Shouldn't be but a moment... NO CARRIER ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 00:21:35 +0100 (CET) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Lilith and Freedom On Mon, 9 Nov 1998, Eeyore wrote: > Emily Dresner wrote: > > Additionally, the checks and balances system of dissonance and discord > > further reinforce the global notion of universal law inherent in the > > system. This does not mean that universal law is the equivalent of human > > law, for it often isn't - angels and demons might flagarantly murder human > > beings or each other without violating it in any way. It may be expressed > > in bits and pieces among mankind, but God's law is fully realized, and > > often inexplicable. > > Dissonance actually hinders the idea of a universal law. Dissonance > conditions are radically different between choirs and superiors, to say > nothing of between the divine and the infernal. If this is universal law, > it's of a strange and flexible nature. Unless the law is something like "To thine own self be true". Oh, and that of your Superior, of course. ;) > Thirdly, I agree with the basic thrust of > the post that there are some good reasons why the Word of Freedom is infernal, > though there are some countervailing ones that condemn it to being in the gray > area. I think this is looking at it the wrong way around. Freedom could just as easily have been a divine word, but since it was granted as an infernal Word, it represents the bad side of Freedom. Or at least, that's the side Lilith has to stress to stay in Lucifer's, and the other Demon Princes', good graces. I do agree that Lilith needs darkening, though. Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! May you have the knowledge of a sage, and the wisdom of a child. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 19:37:56 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) From: "Emily K. Dresner" Subject: Re: IN> Lilith and Freedom Ah ha! Now I'm home with my library. *rub hands together* > This doesn't follow. It is stated in canon that most humans achieve neither > their Fate nor their Destiny; a few achieve both. The rest fall somewhere in > between. It is unclear whether there are a finite or infinite number of > possible endpoints (it depends on whether the spectrum is continuous or > discrete, he says, triumphantly concluding that this weekend's post _wasn't_ > completely off-topic), but there are certainly more than two. While this > doesn't necessarily have implications in free will vs. determinism, I submit > that it makes the former more likely than your post implies. There are a > _lot_ of binary choices involved in the process of heading towards Fate or > Destiny even in your description, and the fact that most don't get there > suggests that there is more at work than being impelled one way or the other. Yes, it does follow. It follows entirely. "... it says that everything, including every cause, is the effect of some cause or causes; or that everything is not only determinate but causally determined. The statement, moreover, makes no allowance for time, for past, or for future. Hence, if true, it holds not only for all thing that have existed but for all things that do or ever will exist." - Richard Taylor "FREEDOM AND DETERMINISM" Pure, complete determinism implies that there is no moral blame for any action because it was predetermined by an external source at the beginning of time. In Nomine's universe is not, in fact, pure hard determinism but soft determinism, which has three antecedants: * That the ultimate behavior of all things is predetermined from the beginning of time. This is represented by Fate and Destiny - these are the ultimates from which a man can reach. * Voluntary behavior if free to the extent that it is neither externally constrained or impeded. * That without any impeding obsticles and constraints from without, the causes of voluntary behavior are within the agent himself. This is standard Western philosophy, taught for years and years and centuries until some cheeky anarchists came along and disproved it. I would say that it's also a bunch of hooey - except for the existance of the predetermined ultimate behavior of a single being. It is unclear in canon where those who do not reach their predetermined fates go, be that evaporate, recycle, but what is important is the fact that _there exists a predetermined fate and destiny which is external to a being that was decided by the divine_. The mere existance makes the universe an essentially deterministic universe where free will is only contained in the actions of the agent. This is why ethics is so important - the only freedom an agent has is in unimpeded choices in which they can make a decision based on moral obligations. > This relies upon the idea that Dominic always gets it right, an idea to which > canon doesn't speak. The descriptions of Michael's trial can be interpreted > to mean either that Dominic was right, but God pardoned Michael anyways, or > that Dominic was wrong. Ditto any number of other bits. Canon is loose and fluffy on this bit, which is largely unfair to both armchair philosophers and GMs. For the sake of argument, one can assume that an Archangel Seraph who holds the word of Judgment has a pretty good handle on the concept of Divine Law for the most part, until proven otherwise. [Yeah, yeah, go up to Dominic and tell him that he doesn't understand Divine Law. I dare you. I triple DOG dare you.] > Dissonance actually hinders the idea of a universal law. Dissonance > conditions are radically different between choirs and superiors, to say > nothing of between the divine and the infernal. If this is universal law, > it's of a strange and flexible nature. No one said that universal law wasn't strange, flexible, or totally ineffable by the common populance. Merely that it existed and it wasn't human law. It seems to me that dissonance and discord work nicely as punishment systems for those who violate the nature of Universal Law as handed down by God. > I disagree with both parts of this paragraph. As stated above, the law is not > universal. That it is part of a celestial's inherent nature does not speak to > its origins. And while the existence of God is a given in the game system, > the _nature_ of God is very vague. If you could, indeed, prove his/her/its > existence by moral reasoning, it would say a lot. Well, Kant certainly could. But he's dead, and even if he was alive, he wouldn't game. But since we're all literate here, I point you to Kant's "Groundwork of the Metaphysic of MOrals" discussing the nature of universal law and God's role within it. I personally float along with Kierkegaard and say that you can never really know God, you can only have faith. > For all of the quibbles above, at this point I start to agree. I agree that a > universal law at work is, "You're going to play the game the way I tell you > to," without necessarily stopping at the same waypoints you do. However, > there are still questions about the nature of God (best exemplified in the > ambiguity of the nature of Yves & Kronos) that are unanswered. For instance, > we still have possibility that the War is God having a dialogue with himself; > in this case, Freedom may be on the infernal side for similar reasons, but it > puts a whole different spin on 'universal law'. The point here is that Universal Law is undefined, because it... well, it is, so far, in the game and all supplements been an untouched subject so I am forced to rely on good old fashioned Western Philosophy. The concept that Heavenly Law is different from Human Law and Infernal Law is an interesting subject which could probably be a chunk of book unto itself. [Ahhh... but we don't want Law, we want an AREA RUG.] I think you've asked the right question, though. The unanswered question, the important one, the big philosophical hook into the game on which things can be built is "what is the Nature of the War". For all intents and purposes, several like the nature of Christ is a minor quibble that is only important to those who need that for whatever reason, or Free Will (stated above) or Mind/Body or the Existance of God. One thing that is interesting me now a days is trying to find the actual questions which need answering. > > The only one truly free is the Lawmaker, who ignores all other laws accept > > her own. > > True. But the word of Freedom is served by having as many different Lawmakers > as possible. This is where the dramatic tension of Lilith's character comes > in. She is caught between her own selfish nature and the fact that her Word > is served by everyone else acting on their own. Ah, a point in your favor. And this is something I would like to see expanded upon. > > Conclusion > > ---------- > > > > What, there's a conclusion? I'm out of juice, so ferget it. Please send > > comments or money. Money is much more valuable then comments! :) > > Comments I give; my money, I keep. Or, at least, I spend it on things that > you didn't give out for free. I do have a conclusion, though. Oh, you're no fun. :) - - Em ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1009 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.