From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Nov 10 12:34:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA28915 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 12:34:34 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id LAA20939 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 11:47:04 -0600 Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 11:47:04 -0600 Message-Id: <199811101747.LAA20939@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1010 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, November 10 1998 Volume 01 : Number 1010 In this digest: Re: IN> Lilith and Freedom Re: IN> Lilith and Freedom IN> Lilith and Freedom Re: IN> Symphony Void Re: IN> Lilith and Freedom Re: IN> Lilith and Freedom IN> [plot seed] The devil wore red... IN> Lilith, society unbound Re: IN> Lilith and Freedom Re: IN> [plot seed] The devil wore red... Re: IN> Lilith and Freedom Re: IN> Remnants and Celestial Forces Re: IN> Remnants and Celestial Forces IN> Superiors and Los Angeles ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 19:41:46 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) From: "Emily K. Dresner" Subject: Re: IN> Lilith and Freedom > I think this is looking at it the wrong way around. Freedom could just as > easily have been a divine word, but since it was granted as an infernal > Word, it represents the bad side of Freedom. Or at least, that's the side > Lilith has to stress to stay in Lucifer's, and the other Demon Princes', > good graces. The stress is that Lilith should not be a nice person. She's in Hell, she confines all her daughters to Hell, she has a Hellish Word. She has had thousands of years to get nice and dark and nasty. Freedom without Law is a Freedom from all sorts of fun things - responsibility, necessity, ethics, morals, etc. Freedoms, such as in the US, is protected by the Law, and I can't exactly see Lilith being a big fan of the court system. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 17:38:09 -0800 From: "Kelly St.Clair" Subject: Re: IN> Lilith and Freedom Excellent post. I think part of the problem is that "Freedom", the word itself, has all kinds of very light-side connotations for most of the audience. A better choice for conveying its Infernal aspect might be "Anarchy." (Comments invited, of course.) But it's too late to change everything that says she's the Princess of Freedom, so. Who was it that was proposing "Bring It Down" as Lilith's theme song? - -------------- Kelly St.Clair kellys@efn.org ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 21:54:20 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Lilith and Freedom >>>What, there's a conclusion? I'm out of juice, so ferget it. Please send comments or money. Money is much more valuable then comments! :)<<< Comments are free, however, and I always offer a money-back guarantee for mine. :) Your take on Freedom is much like mine. (Ack!) It's what I've been trying to point out for, um, well, for a while now. However, it doesn't work quite so well in a universe where everything concerning God and Heaven is Doubt and Uncertainty. If you accept in your universe that God exists and defines what is Good and moral, then it's much easier to portray Freedom as rejection of God's laws, and therefore rejection of morality and an ultimately selfish kind of freedom. However, if you waffle about whether God exists or whether there is any kind of natural law or universal law -- in other words, if you play in the ultimately relativistic universe that a lot of gamers seem to prefer -- then Freedom remains quite fuzzy, and it's more difficult to see how the Word of Freedom serves evil except inasmuch as Lilith herself personally promotes individual evil causes. Even the latter, however, would at least allow opportunities to show how Freedom *can* be evil, but so far Lilith's support of nastiness seems to be either at the specific request of other Princes, i.e., when she has to show her colors for Hell, or else an inconsequential result of her general laissez faire attitude, rather than a deliberate choice on her part. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 22:35:02 EST From: Akumsa@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Symphony Void In a message dated 11/9/98 4:20:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, emccoy@nh.ultranet.com writes: << No, they're serving *my* Word. Though sometimes it's more useful to me than other times, of course. >> Oh uhhhhh another apology here, soryy ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 23:13:53 -0500 From: neel@cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Subject: Re: IN> Lilith and Freedom Emily Dresner wrote: > >I know that this topic has been bantered back and forth here a bit, but I >figured I'd just toss my hat in the ring. > >The focus here is Why Lilith is not a Nice Feminist Figure and Really Is >Rather Dark, Evil, and Nasty, and the Role of Freedom in Hell. After some >thought, I came to the realization that Lilith's Word is every bit as >dark and nasty as, say, Malphas or Asmodeus. I reread the treatment of >Lilith in FotM, and decided that I not only disagreed, but felt that the >treatment only looked at one half of the story - the nice side. Oddly enough, those three demons form a triumvurate of sorts in my game, with Vapula and Valefor tagging along for the ride. >Free Will and Determinism >- ------------------------- > >Like many other major questions in In Nomine, not only has this been >answered, but it's been answered completely and then swept under the >carpet as "Canon Doubt and Uncertainty" - which it is not. > >The In Nomine universe is entirely deterministic by definition. There are >clearly marked Divinely ordained final paths to life which are >predetermined at the beginning of the universe. In Nomine calls these >"Fate" and "Destiny", and states that these are the end markers to a >being's life and achievements. [...] Highest heights and lowest >lows are still predetermined by outside forces, and therefore precludes >universal Free Will. It only allows free will on a basic, choice by >choice manner. [...] >Interestingly, the game universe also puts forth the absolute correctness >of Kant's postulated theories on the ethical constructs of the Universe >being built in by God. The important focus here is the concept of >Universal Natural Law, or the laws which are considered "correct" because >they were built into the fabric of the universe by God and they are >considered moral and ethical absolutes. These are such things as "Thou >shalt not kill" and "Thou shalt not commit harm to another." [...] >The word of Freedom is consigned to the ranks of Hell because it has taken >the route of ignoring moral obligations and ethical responsibility. It is >Freedom only for the sole individual, with complete disregard to the >universal law built into the fabric of the world at large. It gets better, too. A coherent natural law is essential for the existence of ethical choices -- if there were no predictable effects resulting from causes, then there's no way that an intelligent being could know the consequences of its actions, and therefore it could not be held morally culpable for them. Ergo there must be some amount of coherence built into the world, some fixed rules. (Note that this sort of argument doesn't distinguish between physical and moral laws -- they are on the same plane. Very platonist, and it also means that Asmodeus and Vapula are more alike than anyone realizes.) [Occasional interventions in the physical world by God and the angels are permissible, as long as they remain rare -- a chess master trying to improve a student's play will often spot the student a piece or suggest a better move, but if he permitted the student to undo any move and move pieces against the rules, then the student will never learn to play very well. Note that angels on Earth cause Disturbance, which they will try to minimize, and further note that they try to disguise their true natures.] So freedom in its full, expansive sense -must- be demonic, because it represents an opposition to all constraints, including those laws imposed by God on nature. To a full demonic anarchist, the law of gravity is a rule as arbitrary and confining a regulation as any blue law -- it is a limit that keeps a desire from actualization. But this means that in a hypothetical state of total freedom, there is no such thing as meaningful interaction with others -- in fact, there's no such thing as the other. There can be no delay, no difference between a whim and its fulfillment, which means that in the end there can be no other, nothing but the self and its desires. One being's freedom has devoured the universe. >Geasa are a break in the natural laws of god, which is to allow humans to >progress to their predetermined fate or destiny unmolested. This gets to >the root of the word - it is a freedom from the natural law which >protects the rights and lives of other celestial and corporeal beings, and >therefore is consigned to Hell for eternity. Lilith's geasa aren't (except in the PR) really trades -- there's nothing voluntary about them. Instead, a Lilim can look inside a person, and by internalizing and fulfilling their desires, they can supplant that person's will. In a weird way, a Lilim fulfilling and calling in a geas is extending her own self to devour the other person's individuality, and to spread herself over a greater fraction of the universe. If you look at Asmodeus's attunements, you can see this in action again. It's not simply a case of creating cover identities -- it's much more than that. The roles his demons can create are fundamentally acts of self- definition, an imposition of their own orders upon the rest of the universe. Likewise for Valefor's dissonance condition -- it's dissonant for his demons to acknowledge the hold natural law has over them. - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 22:39:25 -0600 From: Eeyore Subject: Re: IN> Lilith and Freedom Emily K. Dresner wrote: > Yes, it does follow. It follows entirely. > > "... it says that everything, including every cause, is the effect of some > cause or causes; or that everything is not only determinate but causally > determined. The statement, moreover, makes no allowance for time, for > past, or for future. Hence, if true, it holds not only for all thing that > have existed but for all things that do or ever will exist." > - Richard Taylor "FREEDOM AND DETERMINISM" But that is the question, not the answer. Is every cause in In Nomine the effect of something else? I still maintain that you haven't actually answered that. > Pure, complete determinism implies that there is no moral blame for any > action because it was predetermined by an external source at the beginning > of time. In Nomine's universe is not, in fact, pure hard determinism but > soft determinism, which has three antecedants: > > * That the ultimate behavior of all things is predetermined from the > beginning of time. This is represented by Fate and Destiny - these are > the ultimates from which a man can reach. But not the only ultimates, in the sense that they are the destinations. There are many other options, so the ultimate behavior of all things is _not_ predetermined, only some of the possibilities. The nature of Fates and Destinies is also undefined in In Nomine canon, at least so far as a quick perusal and my sieve-like memory can determine. It remains a possibility that they are simply an objective determination of what a particular being is capable, rather than a constraint imposed upon it. Both of these definitions are somewhat problematic, both philosophically and in regards to game play, but I don't see that the former is really moreso than the latter. > * Voluntary behavior if free to the extent that it is neither externally > constrained or impeded. Vanna, I'd like to buy a verb. I guess I'll assume a typo, that "if" should be "is". Conceded. > * That without any impeding obsticles and constraints from without, the > causes of voluntary behavior are within the agent himself. Again, conceded. But the effect of these last two antecedents is to make the determinism so soft it crumbles. Even swatting aside my question about Fates and Destinies, if the only effect of this determinism is to define the two ends of a spectrum when the majority of beings fall into the middle anyways, I'm not sure that it's very important. > This is standard Western philosophy, taught for years and years and > centuries until some cheeky anarchists came along and disproved it. I > would say that it's also a bunch of hooey - except for the existance of > the predetermined ultimate behavior of a single being. It is unclear in > canon where those who do not reach their predetermined fates go, be that > evaporate, recycle, but what is important is the fact that _there exists a > predetermined fate and destiny which is external to a being that was > decided by the divine_. The mere existance makes the universe an > essentially deterministic universe where free will is only contained in > the actions of the agent. This is why ethics is so important - the only > freedom an agent has is in unimpeded choices in which they can make a > decision based on moral obligations. Well, as I said, I'm not sure it's external. Then again, I'm arguing away from my own philosophical underpinnings in order to be contrary. Outside IN, I tend to agree that the existence of an omniscient, omnipotent entity that created everything largely negates the whole concept of free will. But, I usually find myself in a minority on this one, and it doesn't necessarily translate into a game universe. > Canon is loose and fluffy on this bit, which is largely unfair to both > armchair philosophers and GMs. For the sake of argument, one can assume > that an Archangel Seraph who holds the word of Judgment has a pretty good > handle on the concept of Divine Law for the most part, until proven > otherwise. Then why don't all of the other angels pack up and just do exactly what Dominic tells them? You've defined this such that any deviation from Dominic's judgement is an expression of infernal Freedom. Eli, in fact, has already Fallen. Canon is loose and fluffy on this bit for a good reason. Unambiguously setting it that Dominic is always right, or so near to always as to make no difference, wipes out a lot of dramatic possibilites and paints a number of the other Archangels into a position of almost constant defiance of God. Dominic, in fact, makes a better character if there is a kernal of him that is perpetually worried about whether he has it right. > No one said that universal law wasn't strange, flexible, or totally > ineffable by the common populance. Merely that it existed and it wasn't > human law. It seems to me that dissonance and discord work nicely as > punishment systems for those who violate the nature of Universal Law as > handed down by God. This view adds another complication that is not necessarily relevent to this discussion, but interesting nonetheless. It basically implies a universe that shares a lot with Zoroastrianism rather than Orthodox Christianity (I've forgotten the name of the Christian heresy that is similar). If God has set the dissonance conditions such that they are meant to punish celestials for improper behavior, it implies that he intends for demons to torment humans. I guess the Habbalah are right, they are still working for God. > Well, Kant certainly could. But he's dead, and even if he was alive, he > wouldn't game. But since we're all literate here, I point you to Kant's > "Groundwork of the Metaphysic of MOrals" discussing the nature of > universal law and God's role within it. I've tried to read Kant and found that the first thing he proves is that German intellectuals can't write clearly. > I personally float along with Kierkegaard and say that you can never > really know God, you can only have faith. I, on the other hand, follow Hume. At the bottom of every proof of the existence of God I've read lie some untestable assumptions. > The point here is that Universal Law is undefined, because it... well, it > is, so far, in the game and all supplements been an untouched subject so > I am forced to rely on good old fashioned Western Philosophy. Which may or may not be a good guide to what the designers are thinking. You've laid out some very interesting speculation, some of which is worth buiding on other bits that would be detrimental to IN as a game. But I remain unconvinced that you've actually _proved_ anything. > The concept that Heavenly Law is different from Human Law and Infernal Law > is an interesting subject which could probably be a chunk of book unto > itself. [Ahhh... but we don't want Law, we want an AREA RUG.] Yes, but I doubt that the book would sell enough to justify publishing it. > One thing that is interesting me now a days is trying to find the actual > questions which need answering. I tend to fall on the side that these sorts of broad topics need to be asked more than they need to be answered. Some of them strike too close to the heart of things for any definitive answer to suit all GMs. Better a discussion that leads to a multitude of optionsgetting fleshed out. > Oh, you're no fun. :) My wife keeps making the same complaint. When did I ever claim to be fun? J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 05:36:06 +0000 From: Jo Hart Subject: IN> [plot seed] The devil wore red... This is a funny little plot seed. It would almost work better in a historical type of setting (such as my Victorian notions) but I think it's not impossible today either... Window-Dressing: Jane stalked to the drinks table and helped herself to a large vodka, in silent protest at her sister's absence. Her sister was afraid of dreams and saw omens in everything; her life was ruled by a series of complex personal rituals which trailed from one day into the next. Her sister who was supposed to have shown up for the party but had phoned three days ago to demur because three magpies had crossed her path and 'as everyone knew' that was a sign of the devil, and she should stay at home. "It's just insane," she drunkenly informed the man who was standing to her right, some kind of TV person perhaps. He was too good looking to be straight. "I mean, everyone knows that the devil doesn't exist in this day and age. Everyone except Sharon..." He laughed. "See, you're sitting here and laughing. But she really believes. God help me, my sister is a loon." Who'd stayed at home. Home, where she had been found dead yesterday morning. "Maybe it's a sister thing," he said companionably. "Mine collects cuddly teddy bears. Want some tortilla chips?" As he handed them over he added, "You should talk to him if you want to know about the devil," with a smirk, pointing out an overdressed man in a red velvet jacket and a goatee beard on the other side of the room. Jane drained her glass, glowered at the bearded man as she recognised him, and crossed the room in his direction. He regarded her with mild amusement, just the right amount of cynical glee dominating his expression, and stepped aside to make room for her to join the group with whom he was speaking. "I don't believe we've been introduced," an eyebrow was arched. "It's Jane." "And..?" "Sorry?" Softly now, far too self-possessed, he asked, "What did you seek of me?" She shrugged, sending malevolent vibes in his direction. 'I know you' she thought. 'I don't forgive you for any of it. And you don't know me.' The man placed a gloved hand on her shoulder, lightly. "I'm afraid that I don't know if I can make time for you. I only have so many clients whom I can serve, and I have to prioritise. But yet. But yet... even I myself am capable of being flattered at being so obviously sought out. Child, I will consider your bargain -- the usual stringencies apply..." "You're just a stage magician with delusions." The man smiled and stroked his beard. 'Believe it if you will' his voice floated in her head smugly, although his lips hadn't moved. Hook: A woman is murdered. It's a quiet little murder which seems to have been a forced overdose on heroin in her bathroom at home. It barely troubled the news, and might not even have concerned the celestial community at all if it hadn't been for the disturbance which accompanied it. She was the assistant to a successful stage magician, John Curtis, who is being held for questioning. The trouble is (says a source) that he has been seen out and about -- which wouldn't matter if it wasn't for the fact that his most famous stage trick is teleportation. Background: Stephen Fisk is better known to the paying public by his stage name, 'the Devil in Red'. He is a stage magician and a stunningly successful one. His stage act and his stage persona are based quite strongly about implying that he is Mephistopheles, the devil himself -- with all the costuming, setting, sound and light effects that go with it. As well as clever tricks which astound the unwary in various shades of implied bondage and torture (ie. ordinary stage magic tricks but with much window dressing), he also does some hypnotism as part of the act. His best and most well known trick, however, is one that seems to be true teleportation. The magician steps behind a curtain on the stage and reappears instantly at the back of the theatre, walking down the main aisle to rounds of stunned applause. This is the trick which catapulted him to the A-list of the Magic Circle (association of stage magicians). John Curtis, better known to the paying public as 'Kovacs, Man of Science' - -- also a stage magician and archrival of Stephens, his own stage act is dressed up with lots of semi-scientific looking devices -- his method is to 'prove' to anb audience that a certain trick cannot possibly work, and then do it. He is also quite successful, but was rather more successful before Stephen unveiled his teleporting stunt. He swore that he would learn the secret of the trick, and spent several months in trying. Very recently, he began to display a teleportation trick of his own which impresses audiences greatly. What's behind the murder?: Sharon, the murdered woman, was a professional stage assistant and amateur occultist. She had originally worked for Stephen, loyally and dutifully, and was the sole person who had reason to guess at how his trick was done. She had no proof, as he kept the details secret from everyone -- but she'd guessed. She also worried that all her omens and tea-leaves showed bad things about him. It was a concern. So when the other magician started courting her, she wasn't sorry to leave. She hadn't liked him much initially, he was very obvious in his motivations for being interested in her, but he seemed to get more charming over time - -- at least when he was with her. Then. Then she found out his secret also. She accidentally came backstage after a show in time to see him clearing away the 'leavings' from his great machine. He fast talked his way out of it, kissed her on the forehead and took her out to dinner. Then panicked. But it was the demon who had a vessel identical to him which decided that the situation needed to be solved in a more final fashion. It shifted into celestial form to enter her house, and appeared to her in a form which appeared to be that of her lover, charmed her into submission, and gave her the fatal injection before returning to Hell. It is now dissonant. Vapula ignores that -- the demon claims that it has something very good that is almost ready to demonstrate, so its prince is biding his time. So what's the magician's secret? Stephen has a very simple secret. He has an identical twin brother, Martin. The brothers have loved stage magic since childhood, and have staged their entire lives around being able to perform the teleporting trick. As far as the public knows, Martin died in a car accident at their parent's farm when he was 12. In fact, the brothers have an unnaturally close relationship. They share one public life between them. One wife. One mistress. As long as only one of them is ever out and about at a time, they can pull this off because no-one could believe that anyone would be so obsessive about a magic trick. Martin is a strangely disturbed, and quiet man. Officially he doesn't exist; officially he is dead. At times, he truly does believe that he might be the devil -- he is the half of the pairing who actively tries to freak people out in social situations by offering them strange deals. This all got quite a lot funnier when a shedite of dark humour found the twins. Martin is the demon's servant, although it has never really spoken to him about this. Sometimes it acts through him to act out these little bargains properly, which only confirms his suspicions. Even the demon can't tell the brothers apart from the outside, so sometimes it possesses Stephen as well. It doesn't really have any solid plans for the twins, but would very much enjoy setting one or both of them up to convince other celestials that Lucifer himself has taken flesh. John's secret is also rather dark. He has been obsessed by the teleportation trick, and not in a good way. It's an obsession which has driven away his wife (and baby daughter), most of his friends, family and even professional associates. Everyone agrees that it isn't healthy to be that competitive, or that obsessed. He has resorted to everything from breaking and entering into Stephen's house, to seducing one of the other magician's assistants -- but to no avail. It was just on the offchance that he read about some outre scientist in one of the fringe scientific journals who had allegedly managed to teleport a wasp from one side of a laboratory to the other. That's when things really went to hell. The scientist was a pet of an Impudite of Vapula. When the magician came calling, the scientist treated his request with great suspicion -- didn't he know how dangerous this new technology might be, and the man wanted to use it for something as frivolous as a parlour trick? But the demon was interested, and so a deal was struck. John walked away with a very special device indeed. A teleporting chamber. This is a strange demonic piece of technology. It really will perform a song of celestial motion on an inhabitent who sets it up correctly, which John does as part of the stage act. It has a minor side-effect though. Although the user is teleported correctly to somewhere within the same building, a perfect copy of their body/ vessel is left behind -- unanimated, of course. He buries these odd corpselike beings in the grounds of a small dilapidated farm which he rents a way out of town -- none of them seem to decay (unfortunately). One exists for each time he has performed his trick, less one which is missing because the demon found a way to use it as a spare vessel. Performing this trick is immensely draining for John, as well as taking all of his essence, the machine is stealing 5 years of his life for each use -- he doesn't look older, but he is growing weak and tired. The machine is actually a prototype vessel-generator -- it was intended to suck the soul out of a sentient being and let a demon use its body afterwards; the teleportation is actually the non-ideal side effect. It was the impudite who seduced Sharon away from the rival magician; as none of John's attempts had been working too well and it wanted to see how far this identical-vessel deal could go. The next time she met John himself, she had memories of a night of passion which he didn't share, but he didn't look a gift horse in the mouth and went along with it. Possibilities: There are two sources of demonic involvement here, and two sets of what will appear to be identical twins (Martin and Stephen, and John and the demon which is using his clone as a spare vessel) Martin (with or without the Shedite) has casually offered deals with the devil to several people he has met at social functions, or just on the streets, as took his fancy. Some of them heard no more of him after that. Some of them did. Some of them even got their deal, if the Shedite was feeling inventive. The technology impudite is pleased with its machine and will want to demonstrate it for more powerful demons, perhaps at a stage show (when the magician gets out of police hands; which he will because he has a perfect alibi). Who knows what might happen if a dog from a neighbouring farm were to accidentally dig up one of John's 'corpses' Or what if the shedite possessing the twins decides to make them do a dual appearance, by forcing them to be seen at two different places at the same time. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 10:40:41 +0000 From: Peter Witney Subject: IN> Lilith, society unbound At 05:38 PM 11/9/98 -0800, Kelly wrote: >I think part of the problem is that "Freedom", the word itself, has all >kinds of very light-side connotations for most of the audience. A better >choice for conveying its Infernal aspect might be "Anarchy." (Comments >invited, of course.) > As you say, the word 'freedom' has a very warm definition for most people. The problem is, people don't ask 'freedom from *what*?' or 'freedom to do *what*?'. Everybody assumes that they have freedom, but it's almost certainly true that that freedom impinges on somebody else. For example, in this country there is currently another argument going on about the freedom of the press vs. freedom from intrusion (right to privacy). To desire freedom for oneself without consideration of others is irredeemably selfish. With this in mind, I think that Lilith's title as Princess of Freedom is correct. To make her Princess of Anarchy would be to limit her scope considerably. While her final end result might be anarchy, she works very subtly, using some of humanity's noblest ideas against itself. Consider how many arguments and wars are started in the name of freedom and how much unsatisfaction is caused by living in a 'free' country and yet being bound by 'unjust' or 'restrictive' laws. Lilith is a wonderful example of a human freed from society. She has a self-centred, selfish viewpoint, but is it that remarkable that many humans (and some angels) consider her ideals and bargains fair. Pete peter.witney@kobal.demon.co.uk Habbalah of Kobal, in service to the Demon of Critics ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 13:25:09 +0000 (GMT) From: Steve Jessop Subject: Re: IN> Lilith and Freedom On Mon, 9 Nov 1998, Emily Dresner wrote: > The In Nomine universe is entirely deterministic by definition. There are > clearly marked Divinely ordained final paths to life which are > predetermined at the beginning of the universe. In Nomine calls these > "Fate" and "Destiny", and states that these are the end markers to a > being's life and achievements. There is no philosophical rule that states > the predetermined path for a beings life cannot be a "one or the other", > simply that it is preordained by God outside of the being's own > existance. Ergo, it is an endpoint defined from external actions imposed > by the universe, not from internal choices. Way flawed argument. It cuts down to: 1 [Assumption] If there is a range of possibilities determined by God, then BY DEFINITION there is no free will. 2 [Theorem, from IN main rule book] There is a range of possibilities determined by God. 3 [Theorem, subject to 1] We conclude (by Modus Ponens) that there is no free will. 4 [Theorem] We conclude (by Conditional Proof) that there is no free will under the definition given. But that definition of free will does not correspond with what most people want when they claim free will. It states that in order to have free will, one must be capable of achieving absolutely anything at all. *Of course* it follows fairly quickly from this that only God (defined as 'the omnipotent being') has free will, but that isn't what we're interested in :-) Also, in a universe with no God, the argument still applies (with 'God' replaced throughout with 'the laws of physics'. In such a universe, if there is anything at all denied by the laws of physics, then there is no free will according to this definition. The second flaw in the argument is assuming that Destiny and Fate are Divinely ordained, but I won't go into that because someone else already did. Then again, maybe only God does have free will, but Lucifer wants it too. Of course to get it he has to kill God and become omnipotent. It's a theory. Steve (Elohite of saying 'free will' far too often). ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 08:29:45 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> [plot seed] The devil wore red... Jo, I cuddle your brain. *cuddle* *cuddle* It's an excellent brain. :) - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 11:09:53 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Lilith and Freedom I suspect Lilith's geasing schtick was introduced to (1) supply a game mechanic for the deal-with-the-devil trope, and (2) make Lilith into the Compleat Infernal Capitalist. She is almost a satire of Libertarians. The geas trick also betrays the infernal nature of her "Freedom," since it shows that *her* freedom exists at the expense of others', notably including all her children, very few of whom ever manage to get Free, and in fact live lives of networked servitude. (Lilith herself is in the same position, of course, regarding Lucifer.) I think "Freedom" is a carefully spin-doctored translation of her Word into English, the original meaning being some blend of Revolt, Anarchy, and Irresponsibility. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Nov 98 11:58 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Remnants and Celestial Forces >Shortly before Pyramid went online, Derek Pearcy published a >little article in which he circulated what I can only call >a Canonical Rumor that Michelangelo was the Remnant of the >late Archangel Raphael. But it seems implausible to say that >Michelangelo was totally lacking in Will or Perception. So, >assuming the truth of this rumor, did the Archangel (Yves was it?) >who found this Remnant endow it with some Celestial Forces and >create a human soul? Or was Michelangelo not really human? Or >did he acquire his Celestial Forces some other way? (I suppose >that, with a 111, anything would be possible.) Or, was Derek sometimes very loose with canon when he wrote his vignettes...? - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Nov 98 12:05 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Remnants and Celestial Forces >This gets to a question I've been meaning to ask about Remnants. Some of >them, at least, shouldn't be that hard to find. If they had a Role, they >drop into it; anyone that knew that celestial in that Role shouldn't have any >problem tracking them down. True enough. > Even if they didn't have a Role, they usually >drop into the Corporeal plane where they left it. If you know where this was >and have a good description of the vessel, you should have some length of >time before the trail goes cold. This presumes that you know the person was remnantized fairly soon afterward, and where it happened. If the victim was working solo (which I suspect isn't uncommon) when the combat occurred, the loss may not get discovered until someone notices their Heart shattered. And that doesn't say whether they truly died, Remnantized, or Fell/Redeemed/went Outcast. And no one will necessarily know where/when it happened. As far as the ones with Roles, the main question is not so much "Can we find them?" as "If we found them, what could we *do* with them?" There is currently no way in canon to truly restore the Remnant as the original individual. At best, you can make someone who is a very blurred copy of the original. I suspect many angels would rather leave a Remnant with a Role alone, as the kindest thing that can be done for them. And most demons wouldn't care.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 10:43:07 -0700 (MST) From: Jason Corley Subject: IN> Superiors and Los Angeles Here's the text off my Superiors page for my Los Angeles net.book, still under construction. I've edited it to be more useful to the experienced In Nomine-er, as opposed to my relatively unaddicted players. Rodia, FYI, is the Angel of Los Angeles, a Kyriotate. Daralef is the Demon of Los Angeles, a Habbalah. - ----------------- SUPERIORS There is a big list of Superiors in the In Nomine book. I'm not going to go into too much detail on them here. Player characters can have any Archangel as their nominal Superior, who grants them special abilities and the like. However, for the purposes of plot, they may be told to help out some other Superior. (I generally make Archangelic Superiors much more friendly to each other than the book makes them out to be.) Heavenly Superiors * Any analysis of Heavenly Superiors in Los Angeles has to start (and maybe end) with Blandine, Archangel of Dreams. Los Angeles is formally the domain of Rodia, the Angel of Los Angeles, but Rodia and Blandine have a very close working relationship. Blandine's task includes watching the Border between Los Angeles and the Marches. (See the section on Ethereals and Los Angeles for more on that.) Blandine sees Los Angeles as a high priority, and helps "stragetize" with Rodia about what the best way to win the war is. She is likely to be at least informed about most Angelic operations through the LA Marches and LA proper. * Laurence, the Archangel of the Sword, head of the armies of Heaven, has technical charge over the Soldiers of Heaven in LA, and Rodia tries to keep him informed and clued in as to what's happening. However, Laurence is generally unsure of the best way to proceed in LA, particularly with Blandine's pervasive involvement. When he does act, he generally has a pretty good idea of what to do, though his caution has paid off and therefore is unlikely to change. Michael (Archangel of the War, head of the armies until deposed) has much less caution about what to do and is always advising Laurence to rush on ahead. Why a corporeal city should be directed by an Ethereal-oriented Archangel is beyond him. * Eli, the Archangel of Creativity. Los Angeles is one of Eli's big playing grounds. Like most stuff Eli does, it's erratic and has flashes of brilliance, and is completely unpredictable what he'll do and when. Marc, Archangel of Trade, generally takes care of Eli's better projects while Eli is doing other things (which is practically all of the time.) * Rodia, the Angel of Los Angeles, a Kyriotate, handles the day-to-day workings of the city from the Heavenly perspective. You can learn about her in the Los Angeles Citybook portion. Rodia is not an Archangel. The Others * David, Archangel of Stone: "Highways don't count. The city's built on sand. Not that there's anything wrong with sand. You just don't build cities on it." * Dominic, Archangel of Judgment: "The first priests who lived in Los Angeles saw it happening: people there only care about money, sex, and debauchery. Are they paying the price? Is the price high enough? Those are the important questions of Los Angeles." * Gabriel, Archangel of Fire: "Where there's smog, there's fire. Just because you can't see it doesn't mean you can't feel the heat." * Janus, Archangel of Wind: "I like the Southwest, and California, too. It's so unreal, it's like the wind could one day just blow the whole place away and it would be like nobody was ever there. Los Angeles smells bad, though." * Jean, Archangel of Lightning: "Los Angeles has a lot to offer. And all those lights...the nerve center of the world is here, if it is anywhere. It must be protected at all costs, until we understand it." * Novalis, Archangel of Flowers: "I love Los Angeles, but it bothers me. It's hard to put a finger on. But I love it." * Yves, Archangel of Destiny: "If going West is the destiny of European civilization, then all those millenia of development ended the human race up at Los Angeles. It's easy to get discouraged when you think of that. What's difficult is to find something there that makes you believe it might be true." - ----------------- This is stuff that angels know about the Demon Princes involved in LA. I might write up the "secret stuff" and tack it on to the end of the Citybook if I get around to it sometime. * Beleth, Demon Princess of Nightmares. Anywhere Blandine goes, Beleth is sure to follow. Those two will be fighting each other until Judgment Day. * Daralef, Demon of Los Angeles. This Habbalah looks like a stringy, wizened old man with a box in his throat, or a younger, more successful Ronald Reagan. He has a lot less of a sense of humor now than he used to, according to Rodia and other "old-timers". He's also supposedly a protege of Malphas, Demon Prince of Factions, playing Beleth and Nybbas off each other and building racial, social and political walls between people. * Nybbas, Demon Prince of the Media. Nybbas' seat of power is in Los Angeles, and practically everyone there works for him in some way or another, though most of his power is focussed outwards at the world instead of inwards to his own "house" - where Malphas and his variety of infighting rules the day. The Others * Andrealphus, Prince of Lust: "It's a party. I love parties like this, where everyone arrives in separate cars from separate houses in separate neighborhoods and it's fifty miles to anywhere, so if you invite someone over for a drink...well...you can't drive that far just for a drink...and if you don't, you drive home alone a long, long way." * Asmodeus, Prince of the Game: "Los Angeles is too large for most people to see the whole board, but the game is played here perhaps more than anywhere else in the world." * Baal, Prince of the War: "It's Beleth's business. I don't pretend to know or care what's going on there. If she wants a goon squad, I send a goon squad. Who cares?" * Belial, Prince of Fire: "Yeah! I like riots. They're neat! Of course it'll be a long time before I get to burn so much stuff again...or maybe not..." * Haagenti, Prince of Gluttony: "There's too much of everything in Los Angeles. It's paradise." * Kobal, Prince of Dark Humor: "Los Angeles is my best joke ever. If it's not mine, it's still the best. So it better be mine." * Kronos, Prince of Fate: "If ever there was a city fated to end badly, it would be Los Angeles. Somehow, though, it has always managed to avoid the final horror...on the other hand, we have been satisfied, more than satisfied, with the dispatch with which the city crushes individuals." * Lilith, Princess of Freedom: "No. Comment. You don't have enough for me to tell you what I'm doing in Los Angeles." * Saminga, Prince of Death: "Los Angeles has more than it's share of death. It's sweet death, too, generally for no good reason, because there are no good reasons for anything in Los Angeles..." * Valefor, Prince of Theft: "Mmmmmmm...a big shiny crystal city where everyone steals from everyone else? I'm there!" * Vapula, Prince of Technology: "I'm busy. Sure, we have some labs there. So what? Nybbas handles most of that stuff." - ------------------------------------- More to come. Jason ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1010 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.