From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Nov 19 09:14:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA11503 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 09:14:14 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id IAA30777 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 08:41:17 -0600 Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 08:41:17 -0600 Message-Id: <199811191441.IAA30777@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1018 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, November 19 1998 Volume 01 : Number 1018 In this digest: IN> In Nomine to Storyteller Re: IN> Night Music/Final Trumpet Questions. Re: IN> In Nomine to Storyteller Re: IN> In Nomine to Storyteller Re: IN> In Nomine to Storyteller IN> Re: IN- In Nomine to Storyteller IN> New Preview!!! (I know, I know) Re: IN> Re: IN- In Nomine to Storyteller Re: IN> In Nomine to Storyteller IN> Ghosts Re: IN> Ghosts Re: IN> Ghosts IN> Re: Ghosts ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 08:07:37 -0600 (Central Standard Time) From: randell.wolff@murraystate.edu (Randell Wolff) Subject: IN> In Nomine to Storyteller I really love the possibilities that the In Nomine game possesses, but the rules have always put me off. I like the idea of a simple system, but the rules as they stand in IN are full of mistakes and inconsitencies. While the FAQ that Steve Jackson Games has provides is thorough, it's also quite large and unwieldy. My possible solution to this problem: Use White Wolf's Storyteller system. It's not a perfect system either, but I think it's more playable than the current one. Now, I know that several people will begin rolling their eyes and saying, "Oh, great! Vampires, Angels, Demons, and Werewolves, running around in a Wolrd of Darkenss. Just what we need!" I agree with this sentiment, so I plan on keeping the two worlds seperate for the most part. I just want to use the rules, you see. So, the point of this rather longish message is this. Does anyone who plays White Wolf and IN have any ideas on how to accomplish this...ahhhh...transubstantiation? I know there is at least one page on the web that briefly discusses some possibilities, but I'd like to hear some ideas from you fine folks. Randell Wolff ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 09:35:29 -0500 From: Nana Yaw Ofori Subject: Re: IN> Night Music/Final Trumpet Questions. At 2:56 PM -0500 11/16/98, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > At 2:56 PM -0500 11/15/98, Nana Yaw Ofori wrote: >>How does someone using the Song of Possession tell which of Three-B's dogs >>is trained to sniff drugs, and which one is trained to sniff bombs? > > It probably has to do with what the nose reacts to. But the nose of both dogs will react pretty much the same way to the smell of drugs. And they'll react mostly the same way to the smell of bombs, too. In both dogs, the possessor will be able to tell "This smells like cocaine" and "This smells like C4" It's the training that lets the dogs know "Hey, this is that stuff I'm supposed to point at." > >>I'm probably going to hate myself for asking this one, but it's going to >>plague me for the rest of all eternity if I don't... >>Is the look of the lowest mouth on Magog's body accidental, something the >>artist slipped through, or intentional? > > It's a Shedite... Who *wants* to know...? (And I certainly don't know -- > I'm not the Art Director.) Fair enough. Was just curious. Have two more questions about Final Trumpet, though... Other than the Sixth trumpet, there doesn't seem to be any sort of time limit between the blasts (Well, maybe a human lifetime for the Second Trumpet.) Does one failure reset the trumpets, or can you try again to release the Ancient Evil, or Release another Ancient Evil? If Gabriel hasn't blown her Trumpet since she left heaven,(FoTM, p 106), How did Baal manage to bring about the First Trumpet during the WWII, only failing because the Nazi's killed the holiest man in the world? (FoTM, p 82) ===== ><{{"> =================================================== <"}}>< ====== Nana-Yaw "The Fish" Ofori, Freelance Soldier of Heck, presenty serving Winslow, Habbalite Inspector of Technology, the Demon of Spaceflight. nofori@pop3.utoledo.edu | Homepage: http://members.tripod.com/~maltesh maltesh@usa.net | In Nomine: http://members.tripod.com/~maltesh/T317 ===== ><{{"> ============ "Life's a Fish, then you Fry." ======= <"}}>< ====== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 16:18:20 +0100 (CET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine to Storyteller On Wed, 18 Nov 1998, Randell Wolff wrote: Using WW with In Nomine > So, the point of this rather longish message is this. Does anyone who > plays White Wolf and IN have any ideas on how to accomplish > this...ahhhh...transubstantiation? I know there is at least one page on > the web that briefly discusses some possibilities, but I'd like to hear > some ideas from you fine folks. Hi there. Im not sure what you are trying to say here. Are you mainly interested in using the WW system or the WW setting with In Nomine? I have only limited experience with the system, myself. I would suggest that you scale down the vampires and werewolves quite abit and make celestials about as powerful as the vampires in WoD. As for using celestials and WoD ideas, I think its better to steal ideas from WoD and add them to the In Nomine setting than doing it the other way around. Someone once suggested havinh werewolves as the Grigori of Jordi. Vampires and Fairies are there already. As are Sorcerors..not axactly like in Mage, but nonetheless... Hope this helps..if only just a litle? Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Remember, there are no stupid questions, just stupid people." -Mr Garrison, South Park. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 10:30:27 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine to Storyteller Håvard Rønne Faanes wrote: > Im not sure what you are trying to say here. Are you mainly > interested in using the WW system or the WW setting with In Nomine? I thought Randall's idea was to use the White Wolf mechanics in the In Nomine setting. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 10:44:05 -0500 From: Setzer Gabbiani Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine to Storyteller At 16:18 11/18/98 +0100, you wrote: >On Wed, 18 Nov 1998, Randell Wolff wrote: > >Using WW with In Nomine > well one thing that always struck me while learning in nomine i the similaritiy between disturbances in the symphony and paradox from mage. In both cases doing something that alters the way reality should be gives a sort of backlash to the alterer. sorry if thismessage seems incoherent I have been awake for less than a minute. Ben, Cherub of Destiny ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 11:20:44 EST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: IN> Re: IN- In Nomine to Storyteller >I really love the possibilities that the In Nomine game possesses, but >the rules have always put me off. I like the idea of a simple system, >but the rules as they stand in IN are full of mistakes and >inconsitencies. While the FAQ that Steve Jackson Games has provides is >thorough, it's also quite large and unwieldy. My possible solution to >this problem: Use White Wolf's Storyteller system. It's not a perfect >system either, but I think it's more playable than the current one. Actually, I'm afraid I have to disagree with you on this one. Not that I feel that the Storyteller system is any more or less playable than the In Nomine system rather that (a) the game mechanics of ANY game will not be perfect and (b) it is the job of a Storyteller/Game Master/Hol Meister/Dungeon Master/Referee/Etc... to make a system work. I myself am a great lover of GURPS and tend to convert *everything* to GURPS, not because I feel the original system doesn't work, merely because I am unfamiliar with the original system, and because I, as GM, tend to "cross-worlds" a LOT (ask my players, ask them about having to deal with Yog-Soloth in the IN universe, heh, heh...) I have NOT converted In Nomine to any other system. I *have* considered it, to both GURPS as well as to my own homebrew system (I call it Multiverse(TM) since I can run *anything* in it), but have not. Why? Here's why. First off, the IN universe is divided into three planes of existance, the Corporeal, Ethereal and Celestial. This is reflected throughout the game mechanics, from characteristics to skills to songs to artifacts. I'm unsure if the three "categories" of base characteristics in WW would be able to simulate this organization at all. Perhaps it can, I doubt it (I have a general familiarity with the system), and I feel that losing that Three-Planes of Existance feel result in the loss of a lot of the "feel" of In Nomine. As for dice rolls and whatnot, esp. combat. This is a cinematic game intended for high-fantasy playing (so far as I'm concerned). Being a celestial character is fine, being a human can really suck (especially when none of your skills go above 6). You can tweak the rules. I don't use the FAQ at all for game mechanics, well, for suggestions, but not much beyond that. Combat seems to work fine for me. Here are my rules in a nutshell (sorry about the Band Width fellas, I'll make it short) To hit roll: Corp/Ethe/Cele forces + Str/Int/Will + combat skill Damage is simple: CD + Power + bonuses for going above 12 on the target number. Dodging: Get a CD greater than or equal to the attacker's CD. I allow people to spend Essence on the _CD_ of a Dodge roll. In my game, combat is fast, furious, and deadly. Hell, you should'a seen our Elohite of Laurence taking out those Soldiers of Hell with his grenade launcher!! If you don't like the skills, allow humans to add in the respective Forces of the skill. That'll be a +2 for most of them more of the time, enough to somewhat even the odds. Better yet, ignore the dice and just role-play it without the dice. "He's a doctor, may only have a final target number of 7, but he's a doctor. He succeeds." >Now, I know that several people will begin rolling their eyes and >saying, "Oh, great! Vampires, Angels, Demons, and Werewolves, running >around in a Wolrd of Darkenss. Just what we need!" I agree with this >sentiment, so I plan on keeping the two worlds seperate for the most >part. I just want to use the rules, you see. Actually... I *like* the idea of Mages versus Angels... heh heh heh... Balseraph Mages convincing reality... >So, the point of this rather longish message is this. Does anyone who >plays White Wolf and IN have any ideas on how to accomplish >this...ahhhh...transubstantiation? I know there is at least one page on >the web that briefly discusses some possibilities, but I'd like to hear >some ideas from you fine folks. My advice is to make up characters in the WW system, use Songs like Garou Gifts, artifacts, too, maybe. Essence is like Blood Points/ Glamour/Quientessence/Gnosis/Etc... As for the cool Ethereal/Corporeal/Celestial triad, I assume you'll lose it. As for use of Willpower, uh... yeah... I'm no help there. Resonances should be like Spheres or Disciplines, probably on a difference dot-to-dice scale in order to get results that line up with the tables in IN, since they're all form 1-6 and to get six successes with d10 is... uhh... NOT a 1/6 chance everytime. You'll be losing a lot of the Dramatic potential there. As for Intervention, well, you've got the Botch system, as for it's opposite, rolls of 10? Good luck. Me, I'd convert WW to IN. O:::) - -Perry, Kyriotate of Flowers serving Creation and sometimes Tanniael, Archangel of Tea Perry M. Lloyd (spook_number_six@hotmail.com) "Remember, false hope is still hope." -Dilbert ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 10:56:42 -0700 (MST) From: Jason Corley Subject: IN> New Preview!!! (I know, I know) I made up a new preview for the next phase of my In Nomine game (starting in a couple of weeks, details available at http://chronic.lpl.arizona.edu/~corleyj/angels/index.html ) It's actually sort of more a promotional-style music video for the song 'Los Angeles' by Michael *koff koff mumble*, a sort of country/folk singer, you know, the kind where you see scenes from the movie in the video? The song is definitely on the soundtrack album for the game (along with Wang Chung's "To Live And Die in L.A.", Jane Siberry's "Calling All Angels", Tom Waits' "The Right Bullets", and Laurie Anderson's "Strange Angels" and "The Day The Devil"). - -------- [CLOSE UP on hand putting out a cigarette in a purple plastic ashtray.] [MUSIC STARTS] [SLOW PULL BACK from hand to reveal the SINGER (Eli?) walking away from the table towards the microphone, under a gazebo, in a garden, as behind him the sun sets and the BAND plays, strumming their guitars in ordinary, walking-speed chords.] SINGER: The air is clean And the money is good I'll send you more Real soon [SLOW PAN UP from SINGER and BAND away from club, over the green edge of the garden, where the wild intersections and insane highways of Los Angeles are bathed in the golden glow of the setting sun.] SINGER: Fruit from the trees Is right in your reach I'm memorizing the moon Over Los Angeles [SLOW FADE THROUGH to a long string of lifeguard towers, stretching away on a golden beach, tightly-muscled and gorgeous men in sunglasses relaxing atop them. PAN along the towers - they all look alike, perfect, bronzed, ageless.] SINGER: Los Angeles Los Angeles [TURN to see the sweet blue sky and the dark blue Pacific.] [SLOW FADE THROUGH to smartly-dressed business-suited people of all ages, sexes and creeds, passing through glass doors held open by the constant stream of traffic.] SINGER: When the ground shakes I hold on tight [PAN upwards, away from the people, along the long perfect lines of glass walls extending upwards, the classic Art Deco skyscraper reflecting the white sun.] SINGER: When the city's on fire I jump in the sea [CONTINUE PAN until we reach the top and find the blank black featureless night sky of Los Angeles surrounding the top of the tower. PAN AROUND the antennae atop the tower before TILTing slightly downwards to see the immense sea of city lights extending as far as the camera can see in all directions.] SINGER: When I'm afraid and alone I close my eyes I go to sleep and dream of you Holding me in Los Angeles [CONTINUE pan upwards. There doesn't seem to be any end to the swaying, undulating ocean of light.] SINGER: Los Angeles Los Angeles [SLOW FADE THROUGH TO the streets of Chinatown, where cars are stopped dead in the street. PAN along the cars: every single driver is talking on a cellular phone.] SINGER: Water days Water years [TURN slightly as we come upon a BUDDHIST PROCESSION of orange-robed, head-shaven men winding their way through the stopped cars, carrying banners with Oriental symbols and burning incense behind them.] SINGER: All things are new All things are bright and clear In Los Angeles [PAN UP from the PROCESSION to the palm trees overhanging the street. PAN FURTHER UP until only the blue sky and the bright sun can be seen again.] [There is a PAUSE in the music.] [PAN DOWN from the sky across what seems like acres of colorful graffiti, fat-lettered bright signatures across a crumbling white adobe surface.] SINGER: Babylon boys Down on their knees Like any other infinite love [PULL BACK to see two lovingly-detailed low-riders sitting at what appears to be a broken streetlight. The drivers both are talking on cellular phones, the passengers are leaning out their windows talking to each other.] SINGER: The terrible things That tore us apart Will bring us back together at last [The low-riders ease lazily into gear and cruise down the street. You can almost hear the throbbing music.] SINGER: In the city of Los Angeles Los Angeles Los Angeles Los Angeles Los Angeles [FADE MUSIC] [PAN up to the blue sky. A hint of something flying, very high - a plane? a blimp? an angel? Then FADE TO WHITE.] - -------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 13:01:39 -0500 (EST) From: Matthew Stein Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- In Nomine to Storyteller On Wed, 18 Nov 1998, Perry Lloyd wrote: > >Now, I know that several people will begin rolling their eyes and > >saying, "Oh, great! Vampires, Angels, Demons, and Werewolves, running > >around in a Wolrd of Darkenss. Just what we need!" I agree with this > >sentiment, so I plan on keeping the two worlds seperate for the most > >part. I just want to use the rules, you see. > > Actually... I *like* the idea of Mages versus Angels... heh heh heh... > Balseraph Mages convincing reality... > (Personally, I think that cross-genre games can be a large amount of fun, so long as /all/ the players and the GM have at least a working knowledge of all the systems/characters in play - just to avoid a situation of rules lawyering.) I don't really see Mages within the IN world as roles for Celestials. Why? Well, remember, the reason that a Celestial takes on a Role is to disguise their true essence and give them something of a place on Earth where they aren't walking, talking disturbances. Since Mages themselves are violating reality, and tend to take on identities, I don't think that a Celestial could play a Mage. Besides, what power does the Role of a Mage give a Celestial that Songs fail to do? (However, I could see playing Songs like magic in Mage, as an inherently flexible system.) I think that a Mage, in IN, would be more apt to be either interested in captuing a Celestial - especially the Technocracy - or would be aiding Celestials. You know, with Nephandi Mages working with Demons and random non-Nephandi Mages working with the Angels. What I think would be really cool, though, is if the two worlds were separate, that Mages didn't know of Celestials and Celestials didn't really know of Mages, and their worlds collided and both groups would have to learn how to deal with each other. I just remembered something. In the core IN rules, the section on ... I forget the term - former Celestials who are just burnt out on Earth. It could be entirely possible - and this would be fun to play, IMNERHO - that Mages are that type of former Celestial who regained some of their power and are in fact fighting against the Celestials on some level. Or Mages could be Grigori or maybe their decendents, able to weild Songs, but in a different manner as they are largely human. Huh. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 18:49:22 +0000 (GMT) From: Steve Jessop Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine to Storyteller On Wed, 18 Nov 1998, Randell Wolff wrote: > My possible solution to this problem: Use White Wolf's Storyteller > system. It's not a perfect system either, but I think it's more > playable than the current one. Here goes. Assuming you don't actually need compatibility with WW, my thoughts would be: Replace the WW stats with: Corp: Eth: Cel: Stamina Wits Will Strength Intelligence Charisma Agility Precision Perception Charisma represents 'Celestial Strength', including force of personality. It either is or isn't a social stat depending on your preference. Forces = (Total stats)/4, rounded down. PCs get 9 forces? (but 8/6/4 = 27, so 9 forces is about 11/9/7. Ouch) Maybe PCs get 7 or 8 forces. Normals get 5 forces (since 4/4/3 = 20) Good mortals get 6 forces (since 7/5/3 = 24. Hurrah!) Total abilities is some number or other. Make it up. Forget all that Discipline/Sphere rubbish. Attunements are more Gifts. Songs are like Gifts with a skill level, so either keep 'em like that, or say that you either know a song or you don't, and you roll Forces+(Relevant ability) to use it. e.g. (Cel. Forces + Firearms) for celestial light, (Cel Forces + Fleshcrafting) for cel. form, etc. Resonances are rolled against Perception or *Charisma*, and resisted with Will if appropriate. Vessel levels: um. Either treat them as levels of fortitude, or as (two?) extra health levels per vessel level, or make something up. Oh yeah. For converting CD tables, CD=successes*2. Not sure about essence. Maybe 1 essence = 1 extra die. 2 extra dice? Extra success? Whatever you like. Don't use both essence points and willpower points! Intervention is tricky. There are two ways do do it: 1) Roll 3d6 'check dice' with your d10s, and look for 111 and 666. 2) Have two distinguishable d10s in every pool. If they both come up 6, you have an intervention (half chance of either). Important note: Don't be tempted to give NPCs 'a couple of dots of celerity'. It will turn them into a combat god since the PCs won't get extra actions unless they serve Baal. That's it. The rest is about fiddling tables to work and putting costs on things (disturbance, roles, f'rinstance). Steve. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 16:48:35 -0600 From: shadowcat Subject: IN> Ghosts I have a question. How do folks handle ghosts in theyr In-Nomine campaigns? Is there an officail standing? At present I am treating them as souls that neither met theyf fate or destiny, and somehow balanced between them, or achieved each with equal degrees. Therefroe they are stuck on Earth till they trpw the balance one way or the other. Shadowcat ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 11:04:40 +0000 From: Peter Witney Subject: Re: IN> Ghosts At 10:48 PM 11/18/98 , Shadowcat wrote: >I have a question. > How do folks handle ghosts in theyr In-Nomine campaigns? Is there an >officail standing? > At present I am treating them as souls that neither met theyf fate or >destiny, and somehow balanced between them, or achieved each with equal >degrees. Therefroe they are stuck on Earth till they trpw the balance one way >or the other. Nice idea. I've always thought of 'ghosts' as mortal descriptions of a range of supernatural occurrences: e.g celestial forms, songs of projection, etc. One additional form I used was 'special remnants'. In canon, celestials losing a celestial combat either return to their last corporeal vessel or dissolve back into the symphony. I postured that some entities could have such a strong tie to the earth that they would return even if they hadn't got a vessel- as ghosts. These remnants would therefore have no celestial or corporeal forces and many would just wander around moaning. Some might have enough ethereal forces left, however, to do something which instinctively supported their nature (helping people or scaring them). Many of these ghosts would fade quickly, but some might be 'believed in' enough by mortals to hang around, gaining small amounts of essence from that belief. Over time, a particular building might become famous for its ghost, creating a bond which supports the entity. Or, a family might have its own ghost, perhaps the remnant of a cherub once assigned to protect an ancestor of theirs... or a habbalah. Needless to say, heaven and hell would like these remnants even less than normal. In heaven's eyes, demonic ghosts are still demonic spirits and should be dealt with as such. Divine ghosts are tortured pieces of old friends who should be released to the symphony. Hell thinks pretty much the same. Divine spirits are still divine. However, a scary, interfering ghost may be good for hell's business and might be left in place. This could lead to a 'ghostbusters' style of mission/campaign for a celestial team. It could work better than most for mixed parties. Ghosts could retain powerful abilities in the form of songs and attunements and who knows what old ghosts may have picked up. Hmm. I think I'll expand on this for my site. I've rolled on a little more than I intended, but I hope that Shadowcat's got some ideas off this. Pete WARNING: I have just changed my mail reader. Please send a report of any problems regarding the format or encoding of this mail to: peter.witney@kobal.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 12:49:15 +0100 (CET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: IN> Ghosts On Wed, 18 Nov 1998, shadowcat wrote: > I have a question. > How do folks handle ghosts in theyr In-Nomine campaigns? Is there an > officail standing? > At present I am treating them as souls that neither met theyf fate or > destiny, and somehow balanced between them, or achieved each with equal > degrees. Therefroe they are stuck on Earth till they trpw the balance one way > or the other. The problem with that is that the people you describe should be reincarnated. I´d suggest that ghosts are trapped on the Corporeal because of some wrong they did or something they really should have done before they die. Maybe they are creatures who were really close to fulfilling their Fate or Destiny, and get one second chance... There could also be creatures that resemble ghosts who are actually ethereal sprirts. These could be called Shades or Phantoms if you want a different name for them.. Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Remember, there are no stupid questions, just stupid people." -Mr Garrison, South Park. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 07:36:06 -0700 (MST) From: Jason Corley Subject: IN> Re: Ghosts In my game, ghosts are one of two things: 1) Ethereals who have 'wandered across' the border and who aren't real enough to develop a Role. 2) Evidence of screw-ups in The System. The Angel of Death dropped the ball and instead of going to Heaven or Hell for processing, the celestial portion of the human is stuck on Earth for eternity or until someone fixes the mistake. Upside: some use of Song-like powers with no possible Symphonic disturbance! (They're still humans, after all.) Jason onwards ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1018 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.