From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Fri Nov 20 10:08:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA15015 for ; Fri, 20 Nov 1998 10:08:21 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id JAA20412 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Fri, 20 Nov 1998 09:43:32 -0600 Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 09:43:32 -0600 Message-Id: <199811201543.JAA20412@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1019 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Friday, November 20 1998 Volume 01 : Number 1019 In this digest: Re: IN> Re: Ghosts Re: IN> Re: Ghosts Re: IN> Re: Ghosts IN> Re: Crossover games IN> Ghosts in the Symphony Re: IN> Night Music/Final Trumpet Questions. Re: IN> Ghosts IN> Pyramid (Re: Re: Ghosts) IN> Re: IN- In Nomine to Storyteller (Perry's Mage spolier) IN> Ghosts IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1018 IN> In Nomine using Storyteller System IN> Fiat Justitia, Ruit Caelum IN> More Ghosts ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 10:22:23 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Re: Ghosts I like the "ghosts are screw-ups in the death system" idea, which accords with a lot of traditional ghost lore. This can also be linked in with the Destiny/Fate idea, since traditional lore also has it that ghosts hang about because they are, in one mode or another, unfulfilled. Ghosts come in various categories. The unfulfilled are one. Another is the "crisis apparition" that appears only at the time of death, to a close personal connection or at a place important in their past. This is so brief as to enter play only as a special effect, not as a character. Another is the sort of haunt that seems to meaninglessly replay the activities of its former life. Such a thing might be several different things: - - an inadvertent psychic effect of the humans involved - - the human equivalent of a Remnant (though frankly there is generally not enough trauma attached to the tales of such haunts) - - perhaps a few Corporeal or Ethereal Forces left behind after the bulk of a soul leaves for the afterlife Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Nov 98 10:11:04 CDT From: redneck@detnet.com (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> Re: Ghosts >I like the "ghosts are screw-ups in the death system" idea, >which accords with a lot of traditional ghost lore. This >can also be linked in with the Destiny/Fate idea, since >traditional lore also has it that ghosts hang about because >they are, in one mode or another, unfulfilled. Speaking of ghosts, I submitted a possible write-up of ghost rules for In Nomine to Pyramid... oh, early this past summer or before. - -Still- haven't heard -anything- about it... Redneck Kris Overstreet's email has changed... http://www.detnet.com/redneck/ - Redneck Gaijin Online http://www.wren-spot.com/wlp/ - White Lightning Productions http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/dvpbem/ - In Nomine: Dark Victory PBEM http://www.wren-spot.com/wlp/milkmaid.html - The Magnificent Milkmaid ... respond to redneck@detnet.com please ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 11:48:54 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Re: Ghosts > Speaking of ghosts, I submitted a possible write-up of ghost rules for In > Nomine to Pyramid... oh, early this past summer or before. > > -Still- haven't heard -anything- about it... That was somewhat _after_ my writeup I sent in on the Templars and some other assorted historical 'stuff', and I still haven't heard anything. That was in mid-spring. Nada. Not even a "thanks for trying" message. I gave up on Pyramid entirely months ago. One thing that has been run by me is to build a section of the INC which is like a fanzine, or totally convert it, because Pyramid articles go into a black hole and never return. Columns, submissions, articles, all that good stuff. This is a good idea except: * I'm really really swamped at work and in Real Life, and I'm trapped in some weird Visual C++ 6.0 hell [over my Tartarus]. * There is no way I'd do this alone with no pay. No amount of big eyes is going to have me putting in the hours alone. So. That's where life stands. I feel your pain. Emily K. Dresner, M.S.Eng. Applications Programmer III Desktop Applications Team, Medical Center Information Technology Online Assistant Editor, In Nomine, Steve Jackson Games ICQ Number: 14849494 Current Quote: I feel that life is divided into the horrible and the miserable. That's the two categories. The horrible be like, I don't know, terminal cases, you know, and blind people, crippled. I don't know how they get through life. It's amazing to me. And the miserable is everyone else. So you should be thankful that you're miserable, because that's very lucky, to be miserable. - Woody Allen, "Annie Hall" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 11:58:14 -0500 From: neel@cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Subject: IN> Re: Crossover games Matthew Stein wrote: > >I think that a Mage, in IN, would be more apt to be either interested in >captuing a Celestial - especially the Technocracy - or would be aiding >Celestials. You know, with Nephandi Mages working with Demons and random >non-Nephandi Mages working with the Angels. What I think would be really >cool, though, is if the two worlds were separate, that Mages didn't know >of Celestials and Celestials didn't really know of Mages, and their worlds >collided and both groups would have to learn how to deal with each other. A friend of mine ran a Mage game in which the PCs ran into the Jesus Control division of the Technocracy. This group had the thankless job of making sure the Second Coming didn't happen. Thankless, because no matter how many times they succeeded (how often have the Adventists been wrong?), they only needed to fail once for the world to end. I can't honestly think how this connects to IN, except that it's a cool enough war story to be worth sharing. :) - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@cswv.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 16:45:16 +0000 From: Peter Witney Subject: IN> Ghosts in the Symphony At 03:22 PM 11/19/98 , Earl wrote: >I like the "ghosts are screw-ups in the death system" idea, >which accords with a lot of traditional ghost lore. This >can also be linked in with the Destiny/Fate idea, since >traditional lore also has it that ghosts hang about because >they are, in one mode or another, unfulfilled. I've had some free time today and I've written up some hopefully clearer ideas on my earlier posting on ghosts. I don't want to tie up the list with it, but if you're interested, it should have uploaded to my site in a few hours, so you can find it at : [Frames]: www.kobal.demon.co.uk/floor2/rpg/backdoor.html [No Frames] www.kobal.demon.co.uk/floor2/rpg/rpgames.html Failing that, send me an e-mail direct and I'll mail back the file (HT ML, Word, ASCII, state your preference) > >Ghosts come in various categories. The unfulfilled are one. >Another is the "crisis apparition" that appears only at the >time of death, to a close personal connection or at a place >important in their past. This is so brief as to enter play >only as a special effect, not as a character. This would be covered by the 'dispanding after fulfilling purpose' clause for short-lived ghosts. Another is >the sort of haunt that seems to meaninglessly replay the >activities of its former life. Such a thing might be several >different things: > >- an inadvertent psychic effect of the humans involved I'd say more likely a mundane story-inspired hallucination. Never underestimate the ability of the subconscious human mind to imprint its own reality on its conscious perceptions. > >- the human equivalent of a Remnant (though frankly there is >generally not enough trauma attached to the tales of such haunts) Interesting, but I'm not sure how the human would lose his corporeal forces without dying. Perhaps it's the effect of certain celestial weapons or an extremely nasty variant of a combination Entropy/Time song (with the aid of demonic intervention) > >- perhaps a few Corporeal or Ethereal Forces left behind after >the bulk of a soul leaves for the afterlife The angel of death misses a bit. Possible. After all, it's only celestial. Pete WARNING: I have just changed to a new mail reader. Please send a report on any formatting or encoding errors to: peter.witney@kobal.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 14:56:36 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Night Music/Final Trumpet Questions. At 9:35 AM -0500 11/18/98, Nana Yaw Ofori wrote: >But the nose of both dogs will react pretty much the same way to the smell >of drugs. And they'll react mostly the same way to the smell of bombs, >too. In both dogs, the possessor will be able to tell "This smells like >cocaine" and "This smells like C4" It's the training that lets the dogs >know "Hey, this is that stuff I'm supposed to point at." Erm. >Other than the Sixth trumpet, there doesn't seem to be any sort of time >limit between the blasts (Well, maybe a human lifetime for the Second >Trumpet.) Does one failure reset the trumpets, or can you try again to >release the Ancient Evil, or Release another Ancient Evil? GM call. >If Gabriel hasn't blown her Trumpet since she left heaven,(FoTM, p 106), >How did Baal manage to bring about the First Trumpet during the WWII, only >failing because the Nazi's killed the holiest man in the world? (FoTM, p 82) *sigh* Sounds like errata to me... Or else he was stalking down the holiest man in the world while the conditions for the first Trumpet were being satisfied, and called off the kill-all-Heavenborn operation when the Nazis got the HMitW. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 15:01:17 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Ghosts At 4:48 PM -0600 11/18/98, shadowcat wrote: > How do folks handle ghosts in theyr In-Nomine campaigns? Is there an >officail standing? Not currently. This may change in the future. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 15:07:45 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Pyramid (Re: Re: Ghosts) At 11:48 AM -0500 11/19/98, Emily Dresner wrote: >> Speaking of ghosts, I submitted a possible write-up of ghost rules for In >> Nomine to Pyramid... If that's the one I recall, I liked it... >>oh, early this past summer or before. > >> -Still- haven't heard -anything- about it... > >That was somewhat _after_ my writeup I sent in on the Templars and some >other assorted historical 'stuff', and I still haven't heard anything. >That was in mid-spring. And then there's Maya and I, who actually heard "accepted" sometime *before* the Templar submission (a couple of months?) for ours (mine was before hers), and have we seen anything? Nope. The slushpile is huge. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 15:35:05 EST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: IN> Re: IN- In Nomine to Storyteller (Perry's Mage spolier) > "Sweet Jesus! Where the hell did HE come from? "Ummm... -sigh-. He was lurking, Perry. That means that he can see us but we can't see him till he de-lurks." "Ohh... my god that was..." *thinks for a moment* "Kinda like Ofuscatation?" "Yes, Perry. Like Ofuscation." >On Wed, 18 Nov 1998, Perry Lloyd wrote: > >> >Now, I know that several people will begin rolling their eyes and >> >saying, "Oh, great! Vampires, Angels, Demons, and Werewolves, running >> >around in a Wolrd of Darkenss. Just what we need!" I agree with this >> >sentiment, so I plan on keeping the two worlds seperate for the most >> >part. I just want to use the rules, you see. >> >> Actually... I *like* the idea of Mages versus Angels... heh heh heh... >> Balseraph Mages convincing reality... >> > >(Personally, I think that cross-genre games can be a large amount of fun, >so long as /all/ the players and the GM have at least a working knowledge >of all the systems/characters in play - just to avoid a situation of rules >lawyering.) Makes sense. >I don't really see Mages within the IN world as roles for Celestials. Why? >Well, remember, the reason that a Celestial takes on a Role is to disguise >their true essence and give them something of a place on Earth where they >aren't walking, talking disturbances. Since Mages themselves are violating >reality, and tend to take on identities, I don't think that a Celestial >could play a Mage. Besides, what power does the Role of a Mage give a >Celestial that Songs fail to do? (However, I could see playing Songs like >magic in Mage, as an inherently flexible system.) I don't see Angels or Demons taking the Role of a Mage either, I was thinking mre of a Mage/Balseraph with the ability\ies of both. A very, very bad thing. >I think that a Mage, in IN, would be more apt to be either interested in >captuing a Celestial - especially the Technocracy - or would be aiding >Celestials. You know, with Nephandi Mages working with Demons and random >non-Nephandi Mages working with the Angels. What I think would be really >cool, though, is if the two worlds were separate, that Mages didn't know >of Celestials and Celestials didn't really know of Mages, and their worlds >collided and both groups would have to learn how to deal with each other. > >I just remembered something. In the core IN rules, the section on ... I >forget the term - former Celestials who are just burnt out on Earth. It >could be entirely possible - and this would be fun to play, IMNERHO - that >Mages are that type of former Celestial who regained some of their power >and are in fact fighting against the Celestials on some level. Or Mages >could be Grigori or maybe their decendents, able to weild Songs, but in a >different manner as they are largely human. Huh. > > In my Mage/In Nomine cross-over stuff, Angels can only use Coincidental Magick (else they incur dissonance/paradox, called "sin"), whereas Demons GROW in power as they "sin", using the sin/paradox to fuel their effects, rather than the quientessence/"grace" which the Angels use. Magick is the system which grants powers to all, except the undead, who have thier own peowers. Saints follow the path of "Holy" (coincidental) magick. Sorcerors follow the path of "Unohly" or "Sinful" (vulgar) magick. Undead are wholly sinful creatures created by demons to further their evil plans. Heaven is the equivalent to the Weaver Hell is the equivalent to the Wyld The Nephallium are the equivalent to the Wrym, yes, as in the descendents of the Grigori, as well as the fallen grigori themselves. There's still "Discord" (Paradox Flaws), but for Demons it is no longer a sign of disloyalty, rather badges of honorable struggled against the Tyrant God. Instead of Paradox Flaws, use of Vulgar Magick creates Disturbance, like as in In Nomine, and Angels usually arrive to "correct" the Sinful stain upon God's perfect reality. Power level or Angels and Demons is, ohh.... at least 3 in every sphere, higher in the sphere that their Archangel / Demon Prince represents. Angels and Demons are NOT intended to be PC's, but we'll see. It's a neat world. - -Perry, Kyriotate of Flowers serving Creation and sometimes Tanniael, Archangel of Tea Perry M. Lloyd (spook_number_six@hotmail.com) "Remember, false hope is still hope." -Dilbert ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 18:31:23 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Ghosts >>>How do folks handle ghosts in theyr In-Nomine campaigns? Is there an officail standing?<<< I'd say that most ghosts are Dream Shades (The Marches, p. 101). There are various means by which a Dream Shade could fill the role of classical ghosts... - -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 16:04:52 +1300 From: J Alan Jackson Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1018 > Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 08:07:37 -0600 (Central Standard Time) > From: randell.wolff@murraystate.edu (Randell Wolff) > Subject: IN> In Nomine to Storyteller > > I really love the possibilities that the In Nomine game possesses, but > the rules have always put me off. I like the idea of a simple system, > but the rules as they stand in IN are full of mistakes and > inconsitencies. While the FAQ that Steve Jackson Games has provides is > thorough, it's also quite large and unwieldy. My possible solution to > this problem: Use White Wolf's Storyteller system. It's not a perfect > system either, but I think it's more playable than the current one. > > Now, I know that several people will begin rolling their eyes and > saying, "Oh, great! Vampires, Angels, Demons, and Werewolves, running > around in a Wolrd of Darkenss. Just what we need!" I agree with this > sentiment, so I plan on keeping the two worlds seperate for the most > part. I just want to use the rules, you see. > > So, the point of this rather longish message is this. Does anyone who > plays White Wolf and IN have any ideas on how to accomplish > this...ahhhh...transubstantiation? I know there is at least one page on > the web that briefly discusses some possibilities, but I'd like to hear > some ideas from you fine folks. > > Randell Wolff > I'm running a very strange cross-over game (using Milleniems End, Gurps Illuminati, In-nomine and a white-wolf hack system) heres how it goes: PC's are investigators/agents for a security company.(as in M.E.) They run across strange conspiracy stuff which is actually run behind the scenes by Celestials. Anyway - the system. It is my opinion that skills make you more reliable at easy stuff, rather then much better at really hard stuff: so this is how the rules work: Roll d6's equal to the stat being used Score 1 for each die >= 4 (average half of them) Add 1 to the total for each level of skill. Compare the total to a difficulty. Excess is check digit. If the dice roll has lots of 6's or 1's intervention occurs so eg: Agility 8, guns 3: roll 8 dice (average 4), add skill (3) - average total 7, min 3, max 11. Average target to shoot someone at reasonable range is about 5, so this guy is a pretty good shot. Task difficulties (stolen from somewhere (can't remember where now)) easy : 3 normal : 5 tricky : 7 difficult : 9 _really_ difficult : 11 etc. I've been using this for a while now and It seems to work quite well (and saves rolling the _stupid_ numbers a straight W-W hack would give (up to 18 dice!!!)) Alan Jackson ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 09:05:58 -0600 (Central Standard Time) From: randell.wolff@murraystate.edu (Randell Wolff) Subject: IN> In Nomine using Storyteller System Thanks for all the great advice and input. I'm mainly planning on using the Storyteller system because I'm more familiar with it than the one in IN. I like the idea of a cinematic system, easy and free-flowing, that IN aspires to be, but I think Storyteller does a better, (usually) more coherent job of it. As far as using the angels and demons along with the menagerie of supernaturals...I don't know. I think angels and demons are enough to keep everyone in trouble, but I'm sure I'll begin experimenting eventually with others. I've always thought that none of the Storyteller games work well when mashed together into one, overcrowded World of Darkness. If you use all the supernaturals that have been published, you'd almost have no room for mundane humanity. But this is just a pet peeve of mine. So I'll probably just use the Storyteller system to run my In Nomine games. I'll tell you how it turns out. Thanks again. Randell Wolff ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 10:13:47 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: IN> Fiat Justitia, Ruit Caelum For those list members who also read Pyramid, note that this week's issue includes an In Nomine adventure by our own Maya (G. R. Cogman). Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 15:34:44 -0000 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: IN> More Ghosts (All of those previous ghost explanations were assuming self-willed ghosts which could act of their own volition. But there is another sort.) Another take on ghosts: There are some ghost stories which rely on the ghost being doomed to continually repeat some group of actions, to the point of not noticing other people, as if it were some kind of VT which had been left to endlessly loop. (ie. the ghost always walks around the castle battlements at midnight with its head under its arm, or is a hitch-hiker that always waits in the same spot, in outdated clothing, and says the same things to whoever picks it up). These aren't really ghosts at all, but a symptom that time itself has been stretched in those locations. Really they are just an extrusion of the past onto the present, like a glimpse through a window to a set of actions that happened once, but only once. The most probable cause of these aberrations is intervention by Fate or Destiny (or Technology, but that's a different can of worms) in a way that severely warped the pattern of what would have occurred otherwise. It isn't unknown for the future to phase into the present also, and for mortals to see visions of themselves or a friend pacing out some future action -- fortunately such occurrences are rare, because mortals who have seen these glimpses of the future need to be either recruited or slain, for their own safety. Yves' crack investigative teams who are charged with keeping the timelines tidy assiduously chase up reports of such ghosts, to track down their infernal counterparts through these tell-tale tracks. Thus, to avoid detection, it is highly desirable for both Fate and Destiny to keep their interventions subtle and hidden -- but you knew that anyway :) jo ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1019 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.