From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Dec 1 14:02:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA01120 for ; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 14:02:38 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id NAA26610 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 13:43:55 -0600 Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 13:43:55 -0600 Message-Id: <199812011943.NAA26610@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1030 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, December 1 1998 Volume 01 : Number 1030 In this digest: Re: IN> The College of Saints Re: Nybbas non-evil? (was Re: IN> Atheists in IN) Re: Nybbas non-evil? (was Re: IN> Atheists in IN) Re: IN> Good and Evil Re: Nybbas non-evil? (was Re: IN> Atheists in IN) Re: Nybbas non-evil? (was Re: IN> Atheists in IN) IN> Insipring books and In Nom Time Travel Re: Nybbas non-evil? (was Re: IN> Atheists in IN) Re: Nybbas non-evil? (was Re: IN> Atheists in IN) Re: IN> Atheists in IN IN> Crud RE: IN> Crud Re: IN> The College of Saints Re: IN> Insipring books and In Nom Time Travel Re: IN> The College of Saints Re: Nybbas non-evil? (was Re: IN> Atheists in IN) Re: Nybbas non-evil? (was Re: IN> Atheists in IN) Re: IN> Insipring books and In Nom Time Travel Re: IN> The College of Saints Re: Nybbas non-evil? (was Re: IN> Atheists in IN) Re: Nybbas non-evil? (was Re: IN> Atheists in IN) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 09:55:56 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> The College of Saints Jo Hart wrote: > I _really_ liked this one. ...referring to St. Mergen the Mermaid. Thank you. She was "real," too, though I suppose she was removed from the Church's calendar by the time the also removed St. George the Dragon-Slayer, if not before. But surely an IN game could make use of both St. Mergen and St. George. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 10:05:18 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: Nybbas non-evil? (was Re: IN> Atheists in IN) Emily Dresner wrote: > > On the other hand, as a gamer, I don't want a game where I *need* > > 10 books, either.... > > So why would anyone continue to purchase In Nomine supplements? Well, there's "need" and there's "want." Some people are completists or collectors and will want the whole set. Some people will shop around among the available options for stuff they like (which is what I do). Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 16:18:23 +0100 (CET) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: Nybbas non-evil? (was Re: IN> Atheists in IN) On Tue, 1 Dec 1998, Emily Dresner wrote: > I would rather hate it or love it, instead of the all over, across the > board blah. I would rather get excited about it. But right now, there's > not a heck of alot to get excited about. I have to agree with this. Most of the stuff in most of the supplements have been, well, bland. There's none of that "Gosh wow, that's really - -cool-!"-feeling, that at least I got a touch of from the main book. It feels like SJG decided that they took all the risks they dare to with the main book, and now they're just plodding along instead of exploring. They don't dare to challenge what people may think of the world they have created; they just add more of the same old, same old. Has there actually been any revelations during the Revelations cycle? Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! May you have the knowledge of a sage, and the wisdom of a child. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 10:27:29 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Good and Evil Richard Gant wrote: > Of course, Good doesn't mean *nice*, and Evil doesn't mean > *sociopathic*. IMHO, the Archangels should be Good and the Demon > Princes should be Evil, and those that aren't should be on the > verge of Falling or going Renegade. But that doesn't mean that > every Archangel is a fluffy, cuddly, group-hug kind of being, or > that every Demon Prince is out for blood, pain, and fear. They > should be subtle and mysterious, with their primary motivations > based on the Word they hold and the Choir/Band they serve. Clearly, besides Good and Evil, there are different flavors of both. I am reminded of a system used by C. S. Lewis (author of "The Screwtape Letters" and other IN-related fiction), for an allegory he wrote early in his career, entitled "The Pilgrim's Regress." It was a deliberate immitation of Bunyan's "Pilgrim's Progress," and is an allegorical depiction of the search among modern schools of thought, ending with conversion to Christianity. In later years, Lewis himself didn't think much of it, and it has never been a big seller, but it DOES have an interesting "geography" of Good and Evil. The world is depicted as a continent, with the different schools of thought staked out as territories on it. A highway (the proverbial "straight and narrow") runs straight from east to west. North of the highway, attitudes are formalized, legalistic, rigorous in some way. South of the highway, attitudes are relaxed, sensuous, emotive. The highway represents the perfect balance between the two. States near the highway may not be totally "good," but they are often generally sane. As you go off to the extreems, things get mad and warped until you see polar wastes or deserts and jungles labeled "Enemy Territory." In IN terms, Archangels would be near the road, but not on it. Demon Princes would be far from the road, up in Enemy Territory, but not all at the same distance or direction. Dominic is one of the "northernmost" Archangels; Eli, one of the "southernmost." Laurence and David are also northerners. Novalis and Blandine, southerners. Michael is probably way north and Gabriel way south, showing that geography does not line up with friendship. Kronos, Asmodeus, Vapula, and Baal would be northern DPs. Haagenti, Andrealpheus, Nybbus, and Kobal would be southern. Kronos is probably one of the northern, Haagenti the most southern. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 15:49:05 -0000 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: Re: Nybbas non-evil? (was Re: IN> Atheists in IN) >No, I don't see any _GURPS_ gaming products which will fit that test. I >never have. Oh, I have. I don't own very many GURPS books, but I've been very impressed with the ones I do own (special mention for GURPS Goblins which I thought was utterly inspired in conception -- I wish I could find some players who'd be up for it :) ). Actually, whilst I'm namedropping, the other ones I have and like are Arabian Nights and Discworld. - -- >On the other hand, there are several other games, and this is hardly once >in a decade. I can look at my bookshelves, and I know I'm a picky gamer, >and I can see games which have something to them which made them worthy in >some way - KULT, OTE, Cthulhu, Nephilim, Amber, Shades of Destiny/Shades >of Nightfall, Armageddon and Witchcraft And Amber made me retch. I don't dislike the books but I really really hated the RPG. I don't even care if the mechanics are good, I hated the way it was written enough not to bother checking :) I didn't much care for Mage either Ars Magica, on the other hand... - -- Now, onto the on topic bit: >It shows up in weird places like >some of the objects in the Liber-R and some of the tethers in the >Tetherbook, but it can't get out. I thought some of the relics and some of the tethers were fairly inspired also, but.. I wonder if we could agree on which ones :-) jo ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 11:30:49 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: Nybbas non-evil? (was Re: IN> Atheists in IN) > Oh, I have. I don't own very many GURPS books, but I've been very impressed > with the ones I do own (special mention for GURPS Goblins which I thought > was utterly inspired in conception -- I wish I could find some players who'd > be up for it :) ). Actually, whilst I'm namedropping, the other ones I have > and like are Arabian Nights and Discworld. Ack, I'll concede Discworld. The problem I have with GURPS is that, other then the fact that I detest the system, for every 10 sourcebooks, there is one inspired on. Hey, it's the same batting average as In Nomine, though.... > And Amber made me retch. I don't dislike the books but I really really hated > the RPG. I don't even care if the mechanics are good, I hated the way it was > written enough not to bother checking :) I didn't much care for Mage either > Ars Magica, on the other hand... > I think the point is made, though. [And I should have put Ars Magica on the list.] It's hardly once in a decade. Heck, it's hardly once in a _year_. There are games, which are popular, which sell, which people have heard of and play which are inspired and do have that "I need to tell my friends about it" spark. > > > >It shows up in weird places like > >some of the objects in the Liber-R and some of the tethers in the > >Tetherbook, but it can't get out. > > I thought some of the relics and some of the tethers were fairly inspired > also, but.. I wonder if we could agree on which ones :-) > Let's just say that the 40 Slices of Cheese sort of invaded my life for a while there. - - Em Current Quote: I feel that life is divided into the horrible and the miserable. That's the two categories. The horrible be like, I don't know, terminal cases, you know, and blind people, crippled. I don't know how they get through life. It's amazing to me. And the miserable is everyone else. So you should be thankful that you're miserable, because that's very lucky, to be miserable. - Woody Allen, "Annie Hall" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 08:48:05 -0800 (PST) From: Robert Knop Subject: IN> Insipring books and In Nom Time Travel On Tue, 1 Dec 1998, Hart, Joanna wrote: > >No, I don't see any _GURPS_ gaming products which will fit that test. I > >never have. > > Oh, I have. I don't own very many GURPS books, but I've been very impressed > with the ones I do own (special mention for GURPS Goblins which I thought > was utterly inspired in conception -- I wish I could find some players who'd > be up for it :) ). Actually, whilst I'm namedropping, the other ones I have > and like are Arabian Nights and Discworld. I like most of the GURPS books because they're solid, well researched, useful, and frequently filled with cool little ideas. I think they're worth it, even though I don't get the flash of inspiration Emily is referring to from most of them. (I do find myself wanting to run games in n different grenres when reading them, however.) One GURPS book which I think is simply excellent, and which does make me want to run out and use the stuff in other games, is Time Travel... which brings me back on topic for In Nomine. In Nomine Time Travel anybody? It might make an interesting adventure. Of course, it opens huge cans of worms, but time travel always does that, and GURPS Time Travel has lots of advice and ways of dealing with the cans of worms. Which AA or DP would be behind it? (The obvious conflict would be agents of Jean sent back in time to stop agents of Vapula from doing horrible things after an infernal time machine was created in Vap's labs. Vap is the one who'd brew up some horrible time travel machine, and if any of the AA's know how to travel through time, Jean would be the one. (Is it any accident that Dean Koontz's time travel book is named "Lightning?")) If I were to ever do this myself, I'd probably use the concept of "Absolute Now" from GURPS Time Travel, and have changes in the timeline make huge disturbances audible in the "present". (Resilient history would probably be necessary.) - -Rob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 11:50:41 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: Nybbas non-evil? (was Re: IN> Atheists in IN) Emily Dresner wrote: > Ack, I'll concede Discworld. The problem I have with GURPS is that, > other then the fact that I detest the system, for every 10 > sourcebooks, there is one inspired on. Hey, it's the same batting > average as In Nomine, though.... I think it was C. M. Kornbluth (or another SF author of that generation) who shocked an audience of SF fans at a con by saying, in a speech, "90% of science fiction is crud." Into the gasping silence that followed, he added, "90% of *everything* is crud." I believe this became known as "Kornbluth's Revelation." It is important for the sake of etiquette to remember that cruddity is at least somewhat relative a term. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 16:56:06 -0000 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: Re: Nybbas non-evil? (was Re: IN> Atheists in IN) >Let's just say that the 40 Slices of Cheese sort of invaded my life for >a while there. I think this is my point. I thought that particular relic was a complete and utter waste of space. Totally pointless. I can think of darker humour than that without breaking a sweat. It didn't even have the decency to be properly amusing (all IMO and I concede that I have an unusual sense of humour -- in my defense I'll say that when I find something funny, lots of other people usually do as well). I liked Baal's gun and the clocks of Fate and Destiny a lot though; enough to use them in my game even :) And the guitar of St Stevie was a gem. (See! That actually was funny!) There was a point to this post somewhere. jo - -- Among those whom I like or admire, I can find no common denominator, but among those who I love, I can: all of them can make me laugh. -- W.H. Auden ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 17:16:00 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Atheists in IN On Mon, Nov 30, 1998 at 11:13:07PM -0500, BillionSix@AOL.COM wrote: > Just curious. A Habbalah, does the Emptiness thing and has it rebounded on > him, and realizes the truth about himself. And then decides not to seek > redemption. Would the demon remain aware of his nature? Or perhaps eventually > slip back into his delusion? Well, if he did nothing about it, it would probably be more comfortable for it to convince itself that that revelation was simply some kind of enemy trick, or even a test of its faith, and that it proved its strength by ignoring it. After all, the delusion seems to be an intrinsic > part of the Habbalah's nature, since even Habbalah who were born in Hell seem > to share it. > I assume that cultural factors are quite heavy here. There's a bit somewhere that angel-demon crossbreeds tend to Fall quite quickly, although created angels, and that would seem to be partly out of peer pressure. I would say Habbalah have two basic needs; 1) to believe they're doing the right thing and 2) to believe they're better than everyone around them. This translates into wanting to believe that Habbalah are better than all those around them, so when the newborn Habbalite is told it's an angel by other Habbalah, and a demon by those pathetic scum in the other Bands, who is it going to believe? Who does it want to believe? (I'm feeling really vindicated in my Balseraphdom today for some reason, more so than in other days.) Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "Warfare is the Tao of deception. Thus although capable, display incapability to them. When committed to employing your forces, feign inactivity. When [your objective] is nearby, make it appear as if distant; when far away, create the illusion of being nearby." -Sun Tzu, the Art of War. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 09:25:47 -0800 (PST) From: Robert Knop Subject: IN> Crud On Tue, 1 Dec 1998, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > I think it was C. M. Kornbluth (or another SF author of that > generation) who shocked an audience of SF fans at a con by > saying, in a speech, "90% of science fiction is crud." Into the > gasping silence that followed, he added, "90% of *everything* > is crud." I believe this became known as "Kornbluth's Revelation." Wasn't it Sturgeon? And wasn't it 95%? (Apologies if I misspelled Sturgeon; I've got a horrendous batting average spelling the names of SF authors at the moment.) I also think it was a word slightly different than "crud".... > It is important for the sake of etiquette to remember that > cruddity is at least somewhat relative a term. Yes -- crud for Shakespeare is quite different from crud for (fill in your least favorite author here). The other think to keep in mind is that one person's brilliance is another person's crud. Emily detests the GURPS mechanics; lots of people really like it. While sometimes many people will agree that certain things are lackluster or otherwise not good, frequently something just won't do it for some people, but will for others. - -Rob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 09:35:13 -0800 From: "Steven Feldon (Exchange)" Subject: RE: IN> Crud The Jargon Dictionary - http://www.netmeg.net/jargon/terms/s/sturgeon_s_law.html The Jargon Dictionary : Terms : The S Terms : Sturgeon's Law Sturgeon's Law Sturgeon's Law /prov./ "Ninety percent of everything is crap". Derived from a quote by science fiction author Theodore Sturgeon, who once said, "Sure, 90% of science fiction is crud. That's because 90% of everything is crud." Oddly, when Sturgeon's Law is cited, the final word is almost invariably changed to `crap'. Compare Hanlon's Razor, Ninety-Ninety Rule. Though this maxim originated in SF fandom, most hackers recognize it and are all too aware of its truth. -----Original Message----- From: Robert Knop [mailto:rknop@ncal.verio.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 1998 9:26 AM To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Subject: IN> Crud On Tue, 1 Dec 1998, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > I think it was C. M. Kornbluth (or another SF author of that > generation) who shocked an audience of SF fans at a con by > saying, in a speech, "90% of science fiction is crud." Into the > gasping silence that followed, he added, "90% of *everything* > is crud." I believe this became known as "Kornbluth's Revelation." Wasn't it Sturgeon? And wasn't it 95%? (Apologies if I misspelled Sturgeon; I've got a horrendous batting average spelling the names of SF authors at the moment.) I also think it was a word slightly different than "crud".... > It is important for the sake of etiquette to remember that > cruddity is at least somewhat relative a term. Yes -- crud for Shakespeare is quite different from crud for (fill in your least favorite author here). The other think to keep in mind is that one person's brilliance is another person's crud. Emily detests the GURPS mechanics; lots of people really like it. While sometimes many people will agree that certain things are lackluster or otherwise not good, frequently something just won't do it for some people, but will for others. - -Rob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 19:03:55 +0100 (CET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: IN> The College of Saints On Mon, 30 Nov 1998, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > I've mentioned a College of Saints enough times that I figures it was > time to write it up. The College would be an extra-canonical addition > to the In Nomine setting, playing a sort of House of Representatives or > Commons to the Seraphim Council's Senate or House of Lords. I envision > it for a Christian-toned game, but it could be just as ecumenical as > canonical IN. I really iked this one Earl. I dont know i I´ll be using the College as such, but the Saint Writeup is very useful. > At the top of the power-scale within the College of Saints are several > distinct groupings. These include: > - Ann, Mary's mother Hmmm. I dont know if I should tell you this, but quite recently, a Norwegian lady published a book about Princess Diana. In it she claimed that Mary´s mother was an earlier incarnation of the said Princess. The princess had contacted this Norwegian woman after her Death (Di´s, not the author) because they had been close friends in another prevous life on Atlantis... I certainly hope that isnt canon.. > -- James (possibly the author of James's epistle and head of the early > church in Jerusalem) I heard a story of a saint who had been said to wander east. At the time of Gengis Khan some europeans thought that Gengis´ men were the decendants of that lost saint. Im not sure if he was called James though. Anyone heard of this? > The Holy Innocents -- > > These were the baby boys (up to two years old) slaughtered in Bethlehem > at the orders of King Herod in his effort to kill the infant Christ. > They are probably allied with Christopher and St. Nicholas. Maybe also > with Gabriel in punishing the cruel. Finally Father Christmas is introduced. Ive always wanted to have him in a game setting.. > The Twelve Apostles -- I heard Rowan Atkinson had some plans making a new Blackadder series with Blackadder as the 13th deciple.. He probably didnt make it to become an Apostle though... > The Prophets -- > > They are not usually referred to as saints, but technically they are. > The College of Saints can take on a more ecumenical tone by including > among the prophets Mohammed, Siddharta, Lao Tze, Confucius, Bahaul'lah, > etc. I like this part. It seems very much in line with canon In Nomine. Whatabout Gandhi? I know he doesnt exactly have a religious position, but he is the closest thing to a saint, Ive heard about in modern history.. Probably a bit touchy... > - Nicholas, a bishop in Turkey, patron saint of children, sailors, and > pawnbrokers. He is probably allied with Marc, but he is best known for > his connection to Christmas and children, and so is probably friendliest > to Christopher. Elves are said to work for him, so he and Blandine may > join in shielding benevolent Ethereals from Hell and the likes of Uriel. Again, Father Christmas. I like that. Are these elves Ethereal Spirits? Like the ones from Norse or Celtic myth? I really like involving the Ethereal to a greater extent. > - Mergen, a mermaid, caught off the coasts of Holland. She learned > Dutch and converted. A rare example of an Ethereal saint. Cool :) Haavard *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Remember, there are no stupid questions, just stupid people." -Mr Garrison, South Park. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 13:04:40 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Insipring books and In Nom Time Travel Robert Knop wrote: > In Nomine Time Travel anybody? It might make an interesting > adventure. Of course, it opens huge cans of worms, but time travel > always does that, and GURPS Time Travel has lots of advice and > ways of dealing with the cans of worms. Which AA or DP would be > behind it? Since you mention it, I recently posted the following, according to which time travel is mainly the province of a powerful Worded servitor of Yves. Here he is again: - --- Othniel, Angel of Time Elohite Servitor of Destiny Stats: Take an Elohite of Destiny and max it out. Othniel has all possible attunements and distinctions of Destiny, and every song that is not infernal and lost or secret. Long ago, Othniel was offered Archangel status by the Seraphim Council, but declined it. It is enormously old, having been created at the Beginning, shortly after Yves, Michael, Lucifer, and the other primal angels. It got its Word very early, too. It has always been a loyal servitor of Yves, and one reason it declined Archangel status was to avoid Word-friction with its boss. Another, deeper, reason was that it knew being an Archangel would throw it into much more contact with the Host in general and the Seraphim Council in particular -- and serving its Word requires a lot of descretion, not to say secrecy. As Archangel of Destiny, Yves knows ALL the POSSIBLE futures. As Angel of Time, Othniel knows SOME of the ACTUAL future, and is the patron of time-*travel*. In addition to the wide range of songs mentioned above, Othniel has -- Othniel invented -- various Songs of Time-Travel. These he teaches to some of his servitors, mostly old and powerful Ophanim. Introduce time-travel and you immediately have decisions to make, chiefly about maleability of history and handling paradoxes. Othniel is designed for a system in which history is rigid and cannot be changed. (Does this mean Othniel is designed for a system without free will? An interesting philosophical question. Othniel and I would say no.) If history is rigid, you get what GURPS Time Travel calls, I believe, "Observer Effect" and what our campaign (and the book "Time Riders," which I wrote for Iron Crown) calls "timelock." Timelock is the bad luck that happens to you if you try to do something that would change the past. Try to shoot your own infant self, and your gun will jam, or the Time Patrol will catch you, or you'll off the twin brother you never knew you had, or some such event. It is part of Othniel's job to protect the Host from timelock. This, plus more conventional security reasons, is why he works secretly so much of the time. Anyone he moves back through time -- either going on a mission into the past or returning from a mission into the future -- works in treble secrecy, not only from the mortals and the infernals, as is usual, but from most of the rest of the Host as well. Othniel is the reverse of a public figure, and most of the Host do not know it exists. Othniel has no single opposite number in the ranks of Kronos, but the Demon Prince makes occasional use of time-travel. He has developed his own versions of time-travel Songs and seems to project his agents through time himself, rather than teaching any of them these Songs. Songs of Othniel: Each song comes in Celestial, Ethereal, and Corporeal versions, usable only in their respective realms. Presto -- cost 2, disturbance 2. Lets the target character operate at three times normal speed for a number of minutes equal to the singer's Celestial Forces. Largo -- cost 2, disturbance 2. Makes the target character operate at one third normal speed for a number of minutes equal to the singer's Celestial Forces. Fermata -- cost 3, disturbance 3. Throws the target into stasis for a number of hours equal to the singer's Celestial Forces. Target may be a character or, in the Corporeal version of the Song, a region with a volume, in cubic yards, equal to the singer's Corporeal Forces. Da Capo -- cost 4, disturbance 4. Makes objects in the target region age backwards for a number of minutes equal to the singer's Celestial Forces. The region has a volume, in cubic yards, equal to the singer's Corporeal Forces. If things move in and out of the region during the Song, the Song tends to seek out substitutes if the originals are not available. Light and air are no problem, but a pebble, for instance, might substitute for a bullet. If bystanders interfere in the reversal process, it may back up to a state other than the original one. Characters caught in the effect may try to resist with a Will roll. Processional -- cost 3, disturbance 10. Being immortal, most angels can move into the future by the simple process of waiting, and even for Othniel this is the preferred mode. But when it won't do, Processional moves the singer, plus as much cargo as they can personally carry, to a specified point in the future. If the specification is vague, the singer is moved a minimum distance or to wherever the GM finds amusing. Because this Song is so "loud" in terms of disturbance, Othniel and its servitors prefer to use it in Heaven, then descend to the Corporeal realm, rather than make noise on Earth. The Marches are the second choice. Recessional -- cost 5, disturbance 20. The true song of time-travel, it works just like Processional, but casts the singer and cargo backward in time. Anticipation -- cost 1, disturbance 1. Gives the singer just enough precognition to dodge a coming blow or bullet. (Cf. "Passive defense" in GURPS Celtic Myth.) The effect lasts for a number of minutes equal to the Celestial Forces of the singer. Foreknowledge -- cost 1, disturbance 0. Lets the singer "just happen" to be prepared for otherwise unforeseeable developments, a number of times equal to the check digit, over a number of hours equal to the Singer's Celestial Forces. Examples: You need to pick a lock, and "fortunately" happened to bring the tools with you. You need to know the name of Alister Crowley's mistress and "happen" to have read that information yesterday. (Note that the Song starts taking effect before it is sung....) In effect, it lets the player write minor additions to the otherwise-unspecified back-story. Retrospection -- cost 1, disturbance 0. Gives the singer a few seconds of clairvoyant vision of past activities of the object or in the place where the Song is sung. The Song tends to pick out moments of high drama, spiritual crisis, violence, and Essence expenditure, and tends to show the most recent one unless you deliberately "aim" further back. (So it might require several performances to extract the whole history of a place or object.) Rites: Set a timepiece to the exact local time, within 0.1 seconds. (1 essence) Do someone a favor that saves them an hour or more of time. (2 essence) - --- Othniel and its servitors can be used as celestial "Time Lords" to move modern PCs into historical or futuristic settings, or to play tricks on the PCs with temporal effects. - --- Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 18:25:27 +0000 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: IN> The College of Saints At 19:03 01/12/98 +0100, you wrote: > > >Hmmm. I dont know if I should tell you this, but quite recently, a >Norwegian lady published a book about Princess Diana. In it she claimed >that Mary´s mother was an earlier incarnation of the said Princess. The >princess had contacted this Norwegian woman after her Death (Di´s, not the >author) because they had been close friends in another prevous life on >Atlantis... > >I certainly hope that isnt canon.. > I hope it is!!!! JO ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 19:36:41 +0100 From: cd skogsberg Subject: Re: Nybbas non-evil? (was Re: IN> Atheists in IN) On Tue, Dec 01, 1998 at 11:50:41AM -0500, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > Emily Dresner wrote: > > Ack, I'll concede Discworld. The problem I have with GURPS is that, > > other then the fact that I detest the system, for every 10 > > sourcebooks, there is one inspired on. Hey, it's the same batting > > average as In Nomine, though.... > I think it was C. M. Kornbluth (or another SF author of that > generation) who shocked an audience of SF fans at a con by > saying, in a speech, "90% of science fiction is crud." Into the > gasping silence that followed, he added, "90% of *everything* > is crud." I believe this became known as "Kornbluth's Revelation." Theodore Sturgeon and Sturgeon's Law, respectively, actually, but the rest is correct. It's also important to note that "...Sturgeon's Law says nothing about the quality of the remaining 10 percent...". > It is important for the sake of etiquette to remember that > cruddity is at least somewhat relative a term. True. ObIN: Anyone read Teilhard de Chardin's _The Phenomenon of Man_? I'm wondering because it seems like it has a bunch of nice ideas. /cd - -- "I have a vision, and in that vision I'm standing on top of a building. God asks me 'Why do you love your Father?', and I say 'I do not know, Lord.' He offers me absolution and I thank him, and the shots ring out into the crowds below." -- D.J. Babb ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 13:40:45 -0500 From: John Karakash - Lucent ASCC Subject: Re: Nybbas non-evil? (was Re: IN> Atheists in IN) Emily Dresner wrote: > > with the ones I do own (special mention for GURPS Goblins which I thought > > was utterly inspired in conception -- I wish I could find some players who'd > > be up for it :) ). Actually, whilst I'm namedropping, the other ones I have > > and like are Arabian Nights and Discworld. > > Ack, I'll concede Discworld. The problem I have with GURPS is that, > other then the fact that I detest the system, for every 10 sourcebooks, > there is one inspired on. Hey, it's the same batting average as In > Nomine, though.... I agree with you on the ratio of 'inspired' books. I'd say, though, that 8 out of 10 are just below that at 'good' and 'very good'. The 1 in 10 leftover range from average to *ahem!*. ;) > > And Amber made me retch. I don't dislike the books but I really really hated > > the RPG. I don't even care if the mechanics are good, I hated the way it was > > written enough not to bother checking :) You mean you disagree on the One True Master of roleplaying? The man so talented that he's willing to hold up all the supplements to the world that he holds the license to? The walking DEITY who has given up paper roleplaying so he can play with high-profile computer stuff without passing on control of the Amber license. That guy? :) ;) :) > Ars Magica, on the other hand... Ars Magica renewed my faith in game design... Plus it had a ROCKIN' world. Of course, one of the best worlds I've every seen (KULT) had, at best, a kludgy system best left unmentioned. > > > > > > >It shows up in weird places like > > >some of the objects in the Liber-R and some of the tethers in the > > >Tetherbook, but it can't get out. > > > > I thought some of the relics and some of the tethers were fairly inspired > > also, but.. I wonder if we could agree on which ones :-) > > > > Let's just say that the 40 Slices of Cheese sort of invaded my life for a > while there. Heh. I'd put the top five In Nomine writers against 99.99% of the people who write for a living in Hollyweird. Surely we could do better, yes? - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)388-2665(COOL) MIB2300 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 10:57:37 -0800 From: "B.H." Subject: Re: IN> Insipring books and In Nom Time Travel Robert Knop wrote: > > On Tue, 1 Dec 1998, Hart, Joanna wrote: > > > >No, I don't see any _GURPS_ gaming products which will fit that test. I > > >never have. > > > > Oh, I have. I don't own very many GURPS books, but I've been very impressed > > with the ones I do own (special mention for GURPS Goblins which I thought > > was utterly inspired in conception -- I wish I could find some players who'd > > be up for it :) ). Actually, whilst I'm namedropping, the other ones I have > > and like are Arabian Nights and Discworld. > > I like most of the GURPS books because they're solid, well researched, > useful, and frequently filled with cool little ideas. I think they're > worth it, even though I don't get the flash of inspiration Emily is > referring to from most of them. (I do find myself wanting to run games in > n different grenres when reading them, however.) I actually almost always get flashes of inspiration when reading them, especially for the first time, or when I haven't read 'em in a while. My friends have actually insisted that I make a computer spreadsheet program so I use less paper on characters, designs, worlds, that sort of thing. Another inspirational feat from GURPS I've found is because of it's elegant and cross genre accuracy, when I have the itch to work up my favorite characters, vehicles, or what have you from books or tv shows or movies or whatever, it's a lot easier than I've ever found it for another system. I'll admit, the system is waaaaay complicated in application, but I like things that way. The only major flaw I've found in it is when trying to create Anime-style games. Oh, Mecha works good for an all-mecha game... But that's because the point costs of the mecha have already been thrown out the window. I've found that in order to make a good animeish GURPS game, you have to make the characters create thousand point characters (charge UB's for mecha and other 'point-less' (not pointless) items/etc. and then with the players, tweak the characters until they fit what they're meant to do. I usually don't end with much over 1500 points per character, though. > > One GURPS book which I think is simply excellent, and which does make me > want to run out and use the stuff in other games, is Time Travel... which > brings me back on topic for In Nomine. > > In Nomine Time Travel anybody? It might make an interesting adventure. Of > course, it opens huge cans of worms, but time travel always does that, and > GURPS Time Travel has lots of advice and ways of dealing with the cans of > worms. Which AA or DP would be behind it? (The obvious conflict would be > agents of Jean sent back in time to stop agents of Vapula from doing > horrible things after an infernal time machine was created in Vap's labs. > Vap is the one who'd brew up some horrible time travel machine, and if any > of the AA's know how to travel through time, Jean would be the one. (Is > it any accident that Dean Koontz's time travel book is named > "Lightning?")) > ... My god... THE SYMPHONY IS ON RECORDABLE MEDIUM AND ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS FIND THE REWIND BUTTON! > If I were to ever do this myself, I'd probably use the concept of > "Absolute Now" from GURPS Time Travel, and have changes in the timeline > make huge disturbances audible in the "present". (Resilient history would > probably be necessary.) > So it's also in re-recordable media? > -Rob - -- Brian A.H. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 19:53:02 +0100 (CET) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> The College of Saints On Tue, 1 Dec 1998, Håvard Rønne Faanes wrote: > > The College of Saints can take on a more ecumenical tone by including > > among the prophets Mohammed, Siddharta, Lao Tze, Confucius, Bahaul'lah, > > etc. > > I like this part. It seems very much in line with canon In Nomine. > > Whatabout Gandhi? I know he doesnt exactly have a religious position, but > he is the closest thing to a saint, Ive heard about in modern history.. > Probably a bit touchy... Mother Theresa? Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! May you have the knowledge of a sage, and the wisdom of a child. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 19:17:53 +0000 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: Nybbas non-evil? (was Re: IN> Atheists in IN) At 13:40 01/12/98 -0500, you wrote: > > Heh. I'd put the top five In Nomine writers against >99.99% of the people who write for a living in Hollyweird. Surely >we could do better, yes? > You'd think. jo ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 16:59:41 +0000 From: Peter Witney Subject: Re: Nybbas non-evil? (was Re: IN> Atheists in IN) At 04:30 PM 12/1/98 , Em wrote: >Ack, I'll concede Discworld. Agreed >The problem I have with GURPS is that, >other then the fact that I detest the system, for every 10 sourcebooks, >there is one inspired on[e]. I agree with this generalisation, but I bought/buy GURPS because it's interesting and informative and adds detail to my games, not necessarily because it is inspired/innovative etc. That said, my favourite GURPS books are the imaginative ones (of which Discworld is the most recent example), rather than the historical. >Hey, it's the same batting average as In >Nomine, though.... ... and In Nomine has something of the same interest to it (though rather more lacking in detail). It expands the background. I don't quite agree with the average anyway. I tend to use 4 or 5 of the books in any one planning session, mainly the core rules, of course, but L. Reliq. and APG often and the Revelations cycle for those extra Superior write-ups (though that might be fixed with a compilation of superiors) >> >> >> >It shows up in weird places like >> >some of the objects in the Liber-R and some of the tethers in the >> >Tetherbook, but it can't get out. >> >> I thought some of the relics and some of the tethers were fairly inspired >> also, but.. I wonder if we could agree on which ones :-) A good point, and one that holds true for Relics, GURPS books and IN books. What one person thinks is great and uses as an integral part of their game, won't be someone else's. > >Let's just say that the 40 Slices of Cheese sort of invaded my life for a >while there. I rest my case. Pete peter.witney@kobal.demon.co.uk Civil Service language: 'Sometimes one is forced to consider the possibility that affairs are being conducted in a manner which, all things being considered and making all possible allowances is, not to put too fine a point on it, perhaps not entirely straightforward.' Translation: 'You are lying.' ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1030 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.