From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sat Dec 5 10:19:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA32144 for ; Sat, 5 Dec 1998 10:19:40 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id KAA07702 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sat, 5 Dec 1998 10:06:19 -0600 Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 10:06:19 -0600 Message-Id: <199812051606.KAA07702@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1037 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Saturday, December 5 1998 Volume 01 : Number 1037 In this digest: Re: IN> Game "coolness" meta-theory continues.... Re: IN> Game "coolness" meta-theory continues.... Re: IN> Game "coolness" meta-theory continues.... Re: IN> Game "coolness" meta-theory continues.... Re: IN> Lilim and Malakim Re: IN> Lilim and Malakim Re: IN> Santa Claus IN> Limbo Re: IN> Santa Claus Re: IN> Limbo Re: IN> Limbo Re: IN> Law and Judgment and Morality Re: IN> Lilim and Malakim Re: IN> Questions Re: IN> Auld Reekie Re: IN> Santa Claus Re: IN> Arcangeles - an SF setting for IN IN> TV - who REALLY invented it Re: IN> Humans IN> Law and Judgment and Morality IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1036 Who's in Hell? (Was Re: IN> Law and Judgment and Morality) Re: IN> Law and Judgment and Morality Re: IN> Santa Claus Re: IN> TV - who REALLY invented it Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1036 IN> Changing times Re: IN> Law and Judgment and Morality Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1036 Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1036 Re: IN> Game "coolness" meta-theory continues.... Re: IN> Game "coolness" meta-theory continues.... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 15:14:22 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Game "coolness" meta-theory continues.... As I recall the core book, IN is designed to adapt to several styles, if not genres. Make Heaven full of conflict and the demons winning, and you have horror, or at least it's a close step. Let the celestials out in the open more, add some spandex, and you have Supers. That it can become comic is abundantly clear from this list... Epic/high-fantasy would be natural. High weirdness *is* probably where it's most at home. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 15:48:49 EST From: BillionSix@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Game "coolness" meta-theory continues.... Why is everyone so preoccupied with placing In Nomine into a specific genre? If you ask my opinion, it's In Nomine, it's about angels and demons, and not much more need be said. Yours, Brian A. Rogers ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 16:15:47 -0500 From: Setzer Gabbiani Subject: Re: IN> Game "coolness" meta-theory continues.... At 15:14 12/4/98 -0500, you wrote: >As I recall the core book, IN is designed to adapt to several >styles, if not genres. Make Heaven full of conflict and >the demons winning, and you have horror, or at least it's >a close step. Let the celestials out in the open more, add >some spandex, and you have Supers. That it can become comic >is abundantly clear from this list... Epic/high-fantasy would be >natural. High weirdness *is* probably where it's most at home. > I myself would love to either run or play in a game set in history. maybe during the crusades. I can see so much potential in terms of heavenly conflicts over this stuff. some obviously opposed some obviously in favor others on different sides of the issue. Maybe a game centered around the children's crusade. you could have cristopher and novalis trying like hell(pardon the expression) to stop this as perhaps malphas and saminga feul the fervor. just an idea. Ben, history major and cherub of destiny ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 04 Dec 98 16:40 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Game "coolness" meta-theory continues.... [Patrick O'Duffy:] > My take on IN, and the line I tend to follow when I write adventures or >characters, is that it's a 'high-wierdness' game, like OVER THE EDGE and the >upcoming UNKNOWN ARMIES. That probably explains why I like it -- I'm also fond of "weird" games, at least if they're not *too* dark. (Paranoia is about my limit.) - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 04 Dec 98 16:44 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Lilim and Malakim >Also, neither Malakim nor Lilim have "opposites," the way >seraphim & balseraphim or cherubim and djinn do. This might >tend to shove them into being each other's de facto "opposites," >and opposites attract, when they aren't deadly enemies... Not only that, but they fit into the hierarchy of the Choirs and the Bands in the same "slot" -- Lilim appear where the opposite of the Malakim should be, and vice-versa. This was a topic of much speculation on this list a long while back. (Remember that the order of listing of the Choirs and Bands *does* have game-world significance, though it's not major.) - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 04 Dec 98 16:47 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Lilim and Malakim > Also, >there's the common assumption that Lilim are fun, and I don't think that many >Lilim have seen the Malakim have fun, so they might be interested in that. I think that wanting others to have fun is a little more selfless than most Lilim would manage, at least without additional selfish motives. They enjoy having fun themselves, which tends to make them fun to be around. Of course, flowers are pretty, but they exist mostly to sucker bees into performing a service for the plant.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 14:55:22 -0800 From: Greg Jensen Subject: Re: IN> Santa Claus At 02:41 PM 12/3/98 -0500, you wrote: >At 3:43 AM -0500 12/3/98, David Edelstein wrote: >>>>>Now, now, he could just as easily be a creation of Marc.<<< >> >>Nope. Santa Claus isn't about Trade. There's no exchange or bargain >>entailed in the myth of a magic sled-riding fat man giving away free gifts, >>and encouraging greed for undeserved rewards in children. > >What about the "be good, you get stuff; be bad, you get a lump of coal" >stuff? (Though I'm not sure that's Trade either...) I was more thinking of the fact that the entire fiscal year revolves around Christmas. Nothing has improved the trade industry quite as much. >>It's the _modern_ incarnation of Santa Claus that is explicitly a creation >>of Mammon. The older legends on which St. Nick is based may come from a >>variety of sources. I have read in several sources (and it was also mentioned in A&E's Biography on Santa Claus) that the image of Santa Claus is largely based on the pagan god Odin. Apparently, Odin would sometimes disguise himself as an old man, rewarding those who showed him kindness and punishing those who did not, the lesson being that you should always show strangers kindness because you just never know. As the Teutonic lands converted to Christianity, various pagan gods and holidays became incorporated to be celebrations of Christianity and saints. I think this is an interesting possibility. Maybe not all pagan gods went to the Marches, perhaps some joined up with Heaven or Hell instead. After all, aren't Janus and Kronos Greco-Roman gods? Maybe many pagan gods just got new jobs instead. Odin got a job delivering presents on the main Christian holiday. Hermes got a job delivering flowers. I know St. Brigit of Ireland was originally actually a pagan goddess, who was proclaimed a Saint instead of a myth (I researched that since my youngest daughter is named Bridget). Greg Jensen http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~gjensen/gregpage.htm ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 15:13:32 -0800 From: Greg Jensen Subject: IN> Limbo I saw some references to Limbo on the list. The core rules don't mention this place. Could somebody tell me more about it, and/or what product it can be found in? Also, is Purgatory involved at all in IN? Greg Jensen http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~gjensen/gregpage.htm ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 15:23:30 -0800 From: Greg Jensen Subject: Re: IN> Santa Claus At 05:40 AM 12/4/98 -0500, you wrote: >(b) A successful attempt by Judgment to inject some kind of moral lesson >into the Santa Claus myth; one that probably annoyed Mammon a bit, but >considering that the part about coal is now almost universally disregarded >-- how many cheery, heartwarming Santa Claus movies and cartoons have you >seen where he didn't actually give toys to _everyone_, however undeserving? >-- it didn't take that well. Hey, in the Rugrats Santa Experience, Angelica finds a lump of coal in her Deluxe Cynthia Dream House, just as a warning. Then there are those Silent Night, Deadly Night movies. But that's another story. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 18:32:43 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Limbo At 3:13 PM -0800 12/4/98, Greg Jensen wrote: >I saw some references to Limbo on the list. The core rules don't mention >this place. Could somebody tell me more about it, and/or what product it >can be found in? Limbo is where you go if you don't have a Heart (or it's cracked) and your vessel gets killed. It's not a nice place. It's in _Heaven & Hell_. >Also, is Purgatory involved at all in IN? I don't think so. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 04 Dec 98 18:31 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Limbo >I saw some references to Limbo on the list. The core rules don't mention >this place. Could somebody tell me more about it, and/or what product it >can be found in? I believe Limbo is in Heaven and Hell. It's basically where any celestial without a Heart goes when they're vessel-killed. Anyone there is completely alone, nothing else appears to exist. It's a total void.... You can't communicate out, or do anything but slowly gather Essence and slowly go crazy (maybe). The usual limits on Essence don't apply, and when you have enough (which is a lot), you can create a new vessel and return to the corporeal. Since Shedim and Kyriotates don't normally have vessels, they're out of luck if they're Heartless -- instead of going to Limbo, they simply begin dying celestially. The one good thing about it (besides that it's a rather roundabout and difficult way to make your own vessel), is that you can have friends outside send you Essence in Limbo (and messages, though you can't reply to them). So you're not *totally* cut off there. Your character *does* have friends, right? > Also, is Purgatory involved at all in IN? It's never been mentioned in canon as a real place, that I know of. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 15:51:02 -0800 From: Greg Jensen Subject: Re: IN> Law and Judgment and Morality At 06:26 AM 12/4/98 -0800, you wrote: > > >David Edelstein wrote: >> >> >>>In short, most so-called victimless crimes (in the US anyway) aren't.<<< >> >> An argument could be made, however (in fact, _is_ made) that it's the >> illegality of these activities that produces more victims than the >> activities themselves. >> > >Really? 1) When it comes to drugs, this just isn't so. Drugs destroy >people, period, and in not-nice ways that hurt other people around >them. They *can*, but that doesn't mean they do. You can't honestly tell me that when my mother has a glass of wine at Christmas that she is destroying herself in nasty ways that hurts other people. Yet alcohol is one of the most addictive drugs, one of the most damaging to health, and without a doubt the one that influences the most violence (70% of all violent crimes in the U.S. involve consumption of alcohol). Please don't tell me alcohol isn't a drug, either; just because it is legal doesn't make it any less a dangerous drug. It is the abuse of drugs that makes them dangerous. This could be said about the overuse of anything. Gaming too much could certainly harm myself (if I never go to work, spend time with my family, etc.) and those around me. This says nothing at all about occasional responsible use. >2) I don't have enough knowledge about the subject, so I can't >argue for or against prostitution. I have to wonder, though. Selling >sexual services- renting out one's body, really, can't be good for the >psyche or soul. You'd almost have to sublimate yourself... *sigh* I >don't know enough about this to make an argument. I have done several research papers on the topic, and it should be pointed out that a regulated prostitution industry effectively eliminates all the reasons one could have against the prostitution industry. Having underage girls involved? Not if its regulated. Sexually transmitted diseases? Well, Nevada has the lowest rate of HIV transmission via prostitutes of any state in the union, because their legal prostitutes are required to practice safe sex and have regular checkups. Right or wrong, people are going to do it, and it would be a good idea to cut down on the negative effects of it. As for renting out one's body and sublimating yourself, well, that could certainly be said for quite a few jobs. >*shakes head* No. That nerdy single guy is contributing to the >destruction of another human being. She is, quite frankly, no matter >how good in bed she is, not selling her services, her knowledge, or >her capability. She's selling her body on an intimate basis. Same with that janitor, that burger-flipper, that gas station attendant, etc. To get back on the subject of Dominic, perhaps a better example would be homosexuality. I assume Dominic would not approve of homosexuals. But why? What harm do they cause? Homosexual rape is harmful, yes, just as heterosexual rape is. Diseases passed through prolific homosexual sex is bad, yes, as is heterosexual prolificity leading to STDs. This says nothing about a loving monogamous homosexual relationship. Remember, the real Inquisition went after and tortured/killed many homosexuals. What about Dominic, and how can he justify this except that "it's the law, right or wrong?" Greg Jensen http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~gjensen/gregpage.htm ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 18:40:08 -0800 (PST) From: -=|horsefly|=- Subject: Re: IN> Lilim and Malakim On Fri, 4 Dec 1998, Walter Milliken wrote: [snip previous poster] > Not only that, but they fit into the hierarchy of the Choirs and the > Bands in the same "slot" -- Lilim appear where the opposite of the i really must look at this, but i had thought the listing was in alphabetical order. > Malakim should be, and vice-versa. This was a topic of much speculation > on this list a long while back. (Remember that the order of listing of pity i wasn't here for that... > the Choirs and Bands *does* have game-world significance, though it's > not major.) ...and since you mention *a* significance, though it's "not major," and i suspect others such as myself missed this, too; i don't believe i saw mention of this on the INC, so does anyone want to recap what the significance of the listings of Choirs and Bands is? i know the Choirs are supposedly listed from "most heavenly" to "most earthly." shall i presume the Bands progress from "most hellish" to "most earthly"? if that's so, why wouldn't Lilim be last (and thus closest to 'human')? (or are they and i'm just forgetting...? -=|horsefly|=- "Back off, preacher, I don't care if it's Sunday. I ain't no angel, but I never felt better!" --FREEDOM, Alice Cooper ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 18:51:34 -0800 (PST) From: -=|horsefly|=- Subject: Re: IN> Questions At 5:32 PM -0800 12/3/98, Kelly St.Clair wrote: >>>[...] Lilim, free and otherwise, are fascinated/intrigued/strongly >>>attracted to Malakim. [...] What is the rationale of this? >> >>Malakim have Good Views from behind. > >Or, in slightly plainer language: >"Have you anything to say before I smite thee?" >"... you have a really cute butt." >"......" >"So, what kind of 'smiting' did you have in mind?" as a less dark subplot or just as a one-shot story for gags (i'm leaning more toward a recurrent Lilim NPC to lighten the mood periodically for an angel-centric [obviously Malakim-centric] game) where one Lilim gets cornered, gives the above first response, gets vessel-killed, and later shows up, *tries* to surrender before being cut down, utters some variant upon the second comment--something like, "Wait, what exactly do you guys mean by 'smiting'?"--and gets vessel-killed again. this keeps up over time (it's more effective with just one Malakite in the game, i'm thinking now), and either the other PCs start teasing the Malakite in question or a Judgment triad shows up demanding to know why this Tempter is fixated on the Virtue. -=|horsefly|=- "Back off, preacher, I don't care if it's Sunday. I ain't no angel, but I never felt better!" --FREEDOM, Alice Cooper ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 03:29:43 +0000 From: Roland Ward Subject: Re: IN> Auld Reekie > I'm sure there are tons of others -- almost every second cobblestone on the > Royal Mile has enough history to justify tether location :) > Or Rose Steet - it seems to have far too many pubs on it not to be associated with some sort of excess. On a more serious note at least when I lived there Edinburgh was the AIDS capital of Europe - mainly due to the high amount of introvenous drugs takers - Fleurity/Saminga crossover there somewhere. I would certainly include the building of a new tether for the new parliament buildings. The Game or Factions even. Not that I'd want Edinburgh to get more tethers than us west coasters ;-) Roland ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 03:32:49 +0000 From: Roland Ward Subject: Re: IN> Santa Claus David Edelstein wrote: > >>>Isn't Santa Claus [Other than being Saint Nicholas] Just a collection of > Christopher's Malakim. After all he Knows when you've been bad, he knows > when you've been good?<<< > > Actually, the modern Santa Claus is a creation of Mammon (with a little > help from Nybbas). An example of a successful perversion of a more > benevolent original idea. > > -David Wow! wonderful! Santa's back - but this time he's got a machine gun, and he knows who's been a naughty demon. Adventure seed - Poor, deluded (but powerful) Malakim of David wants his turf back, and he's determined this Christmas is going to be a little "different". Suitable for a party or Angels or Demons (or both!) Roland ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 03:38:36 +0000 From: Roland Ward Subject: Re: IN> Arcangeles - an SF setting for IN Pee Kitty wrote: > There's a LOT of potential here; I like it. In fact, I can see this as > being a campaign for now...the preparation for the first REAL space > station of its kind. The players could be involved from the beginning; > just affecting the outcome of this project alone would make for an > interesting game.... > Mmm I like the idea of near future In Nomine. Especially if the future has gone to hell like the Cyberpunk world. The space station idea is good - you would want to steer clear of any likeness to Babylon 5 though. Roland ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 03:16:27 +0000 From: Roland Ward Subject: IN> TV - who REALLY invented it I was thinking about the TV being invented by Nybbas again.(don't tell me I'm getting horribly mixed up) Well of course in real life many people account the invention of the TV to the marconi brothers, but in fact the first TV was successfully developed before them by a young poor Scotsman called John Logie Baird (spelling?) but his technology was replaced by the more fancy Marconi equipment. Wouldn't this make an interesting little adventure twist - a human (maybe guided by Eli or Jean) succumbing to the forces of Hell's technology. But maybe a gaurdian angel or two could stop it - to turn TV into a tool of Heaven instead. Roland ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 03:07:54 +0000 From: Roland Ward Subject: Re: IN> Humans Earl Wajenberg wrote: > B.H. wrote: > > > > Are all human beings who aren't natural sixes, saints, undead, or > > soldiers doomed to having only 5 forces? > > I don't *think* so; it's just these are the roles 6+ forcers > have available to them in the game (along with sorceror). > It's rather implied that high-force humans generally hang about > without any of those roles until some celestial notices them > and they get caught up in the War. I ran a game with a group of humans that "became" soldiers after consistently encountering the supernatural. After I couple of these I gave them a run in with some nice NPC angels who gave them the extra force through a rite of passage. It was a bit like running Call of Cthulhu, but with the humans ending up sane... I reckoned they deserved the extra force from roleplaying, but I quite liked the idea of a celestial "gift" - it fits in quite nicely with the traditional role of angels as messengers (well some angels) Roland ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 23:18:09 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Law and Judgment and Morality >>>Really? 1) When it comes to drugs, this just isn't so. Drugs destroy people, period, and in not-nice ways that hurt other people around them.<<< I'm not saying drugs are good. I'm saying it's quite possible that making them illegal simply exacerbates problems. It certainly doesn't stop drug abuse, but it does create massive, violent criminal syndicates, and a legal system that does nothing to help victims of drug abuse, only accelerates their destruction. (I'm not entirely in favor of drug legalization, but it is a more complex argument than you're presenting.) >>>2) I don't have enough knowledge about the subject, so I can't argue for or against prostitution. I have to wonder, though. Selling sexual services- renting out one's body, really, can't be good for the psyche or soul. You'd almost have to sublimate yourself... *sigh* I don't know enough about this to make an argument.<<< Then you probably shouldn't. I have no doubt that many prostitutes are psychically-damaged wrecks, but "prostitution" covers a broad spectrum from the heroin-addicts on the street to professional escorts, by whatever name, who have a long and often respectable history in many countries. >>>One thing I did learn is that never, ever, compare prostitution to consensual sex between adults.<<< That's nice that you learned that, but just because your feminist ethics teacher said so doesn't make it so. >>>One person, the 'john' is paying to use the body of another in prostitution. Consensual sex is about many things, but if it's consensual, it's usually not about one person buying another's body.<<< Look up the meaning of the word "consensual." >>>See, I don't think it works that way. He's not just paying for sex, he's paying to use someone. Rather impudite-like, and with the same effects, only psyche-sucking rather than soul-sucking.<<< That may be true of some johns, but I think most are just paying for sex. And even if someone is paying to use someone, if the usee is consenting, you may not like it but that doesn't make it either a crime or immoral. >>>*shakes head* No. That nerdy single guy is contributing to the destruction of another human being. She is, quite frankly, no matter how good in bed she is, not selling her services, her knowledge, or her capability. She's selling her body on an intimate basis. It is important; not recognizing this is probably some Demon Prince or group of Demon Princes (Andre, Fleurity (for the drugs part), and Nybbas most likely).<<< Wow, anyone who disagrees with you is siding with Hell (albeit a fictional RPG version of it)? I love it when kneejerk fundamentalists (of whatever stripe) start spouting off on the list.... - -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 23:28:08 EST From: Gruzzle@aol.com Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1036 > I don't know if I would class IN as a *superhero* game... :) > > It is a SuperHero game. It's not exactly a Marvel Heros, or Batman or > Spiderman or anything like that, but there are still people who are bigger > and badder then any human being fighting back and forth with superpowers. Usint that definition White Wolf's games are superhero games as well, and one could argue that some cyberpunk or fantasy games fit that description too. In pretty much *every* RPG I've ever played (with one or two exceptions...) the player characters always have "superhuman" skills and abilities in one form or another be it really big guns, lots of hit points, superhumanly keen ability scores, magical instruments, or even a cosmic eraser of doom 2000 (which is really, really good at erasing mistakes). "Superhero" needs to be defined a bit more. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 23:57:15 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Who's in Hell? (Was Re: IN> Law and Judgment and Morality) On Fri, 4 Dec 1998, David Edelstein wrote: > Wow, anyone who disagrees with you is siding with Hell (albeit a fictional > RPG version of it)? Hey, if it was good enough for Dante Allegheri, then it's good enough for us. :) Richard Gant (Just trying to lighten things up a little.) - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit my web page: Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto Currently dedicated to In Nomine, Planescape, and Waste World - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 09:30:37 +0100 (CET) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Law and Judgment and Morality On Fri, 4 Dec 1998, Greg Jensen wrote: > At 06:26 AM 12/4/98 -0800, you wrote: > > >*shakes head* No. That nerdy single guy is contributing to the > >destruction of another human being. She is, quite frankly, no matter > >how good in bed she is, not selling her services, her knowledge, or > >her capability. She's selling her body on an intimate basis. > > Same with that janitor, that burger-flipper, that gas station attendant, etc. Not quite. The janitor et al are selling the work their bodies perform, which isn't the same thing. > To get back on the subject of Dominic, perhaps a better example would be > homosexuality. I assume Dominic would not approve of homosexuals. But > why? What harm do they cause? Homosexual rape is harmful, yes, just as > heterosexual rape is. Diseases passed through prolific homosexual sex is > bad, yes, as is heterosexual prolificity leading to STDs. This says > nothing about a loving monogamous homosexual relationship. Remember, the > real Inquisition went after and tortured/killed many homosexuals. What > about Dominic, and how can he justify this except that "it's the law, right > or wrong?" Why do you assume this? I can't see why Dominic would care about what consenting adults do behind closed curtains, as long as none of them was hurt by it. Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! May you have the knowledge of a sage, and the wisdom of a child. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 09:40:33 +0100 (CET) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Santa Claus On Fri, 4 Dec 1998, Greg Jensen wrote: > I have read in several sources (and it was also mentioned in A&E's > Biography on Santa Claus) that the image of Santa Claus is largely based on > the pagan god Odin. Apparently, Odin would sometimes disguise himself as > an old man, rewarding those who showed him kindness and punishing those who > did not, the lesson being that you should always show strangers kindness > because you just never know. As the Teutonic lands converted to > Christianity, various pagan gods and holidays became incorporated to be > celebrations of Christianity and saints. I think this is an interesting > possibility. According to one of the parody comics on the Disinformation site which is this weeks Illuminated site at the Daily Illuminator, Santa is formed around the Horned God. I don't know how accurate their account of this is, but it's an interesting possibility. The comic, which at least I found a bit entertaining, is reached by following the Saturnalia link at the page www.Disinfo.com/prop/brainw/prop_brainw_jackchick.html "I used to be worshipped for my ability to bring the Mother back to life after winter, and now I have to wear this red suit and be 'jolly' all the time. Lemme tell ya, being a god isn't an easy job." Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! May you have the knowledge of a sage, and the wisdom of a child. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 05:29:04 -0500 From: werther@hilander.com (...jason schneiderman...) Subject: Re: IN> TV - who REALLY invented it >Well of course in real life many people account the invention of the TV >to the marconi brothers, but in fact the first TV was successfully >developed before them by a young poor Scotsman called John Logie Baird >(spelling?) but his technology was replaced by the more fancy Marconi >equipment. The Marconi brothers? I thought they were attributed to inventing the radio; television was the creation of Philo T. Farnsworth (who has one of the coolest names in history; if I was going to give a name to the genius who invented the device that shaped the last half of the twentieth century, I don't think I could do better than Philo T. Farnsworth. Except maybe Robert J. Oppenheimer.) - - J. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 05:35:34 -0500 From: werther@hilander.com (...jason schneiderman...) Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1036 >In pretty much *every* RPG I've ever played (with one or two exceptions...) >the player characters always have "superhuman" skills and abilities in one >form or another be it really big guns, lots of hit points, superhumanly keen >ability scores, magical instruments, or even a cosmic eraser of doom 2000 >(which is really, really good at erasing mistakes). >"Superhero" needs to be defined a bit more. Okay... how does this sound? A "superheroic" game is one with clearly defined moral lines (good vs. evil), lots of cinematic (as opposed to simulationist or 'realistic') action-adventure, featuring characters that are clearly 'larger than life'. Another sign of a superheroic game is that most often (but not always) they feature characters with "inherent" abilities; their powers come from within, not devices or the like. Feng Shui, for example, is a superheroic game. Mage can be and often is. (Vampire can be as well, if done wrong, but that's just an opinion. :)) And the canon setting for IN seems to be leading the game in that direction. How does that sound for a start? - - J ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 11:11:38 +0000 From: "CA Smith" Subject: IN> Changing times On 2nd December Peter Witney wrote: >I was thinking recently of Jean and the changes he must have made to his >operations in the twentieth century (for example many of his servitors' >attunements wouldn't have had meaning until the 20thC- telephones? circuit >boards?). >I drew up a few plans for a pre-20th C. Jean. >In a time-travel campaign, or simply one set in the past, it would be >interesting to work with the differences in politics, power structures and >activities of angels/demons. And for knowledgable players, running into >servitors of such a familiar AA who have remarkably different abilities >(probably related more to Lightning) would be an exciting affair. Personally I see all the superiors, especially Jean, Vapula & Eli, changing their attunements, rites etc every so often to "keep up with the times". The only execption to this of course is David, who as soon as he's come round to the idea of changing, the change will probably become irelevant. I would be interested to see if others think the same way Chris Smith Gremlim of Vapula Why do Calabim of Belial think bigger is better? a little snip here, a little snip there... and all hell breeaks loose! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 09:56:28 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> Law and Judgment and Morality On Sat, 5 Dec 1998, Anders Gabrielsson wrote: > > To get back on the subject of Dominic, perhaps a better example would be > > homosexuality. I assume Dominic would not approve of homosexuals. But > > why? What harm do they cause? Homosexual rape is harmful, yes, just as > > heterosexual rape is. Diseases passed through prolific homosexual sex is > > bad, yes, as is heterosexual prolificity leading to STDs. This says > > nothing about a loving monogamous homosexual relationship. Remember, the > > real Inquisition went after and tortured/killed many homosexuals. What > > about Dominic, and how can he justify this except that "it's the law, right > > or wrong?" > > Why do you assume this? I can't see why Dominic would care about what > consenting adults do behind closed curtains, as long as none of them was > hurt by it. I think it depends on how you interpret Dominic's support for Catholicism. If you assume that he is in agreement with them doctrinally, then he would most likely follow the Catholic (and generally Christian) view that homosexuality is an abomination in the sight of God. It's not likely tht his Servitors would go after mortal homosexuals all that often (after all, the primary function of Judgement is Celestial), but I doubt that Judgement aproves of it. On the other hand, if Dominic supports Catholicism as a mater of politics, then his attitude towards homosexuality is far more likely one of absolute indifference. Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit my web page: Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto Currently dedicated to In Nomine, Planescape, and Waste World - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 10:20:00 -0500 From: eswhanu@juno.com Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1036 On Sat, 5 Dec 1998 05:35:34 -0500 werther@hilander.com (...jason schneiderman...) writes: >>In pretty much *every* RPG I've ever played (with one or two >exceptions...)>>the player characters always have "superhuman" skills and abilities >in one>>form or another be it really big guns, lots of hit points, >superhumanly keen >>ability scores, magical instruments, or even a cosmic eraser of doom >2000>>(which is really, really good at erasing mistakes).>>"Superhero" needs to be defined a bit more. > >Okay... how does this sound? >A "superheroic" game is one with clearly defined moral lines (good >vs.>evil), lots of cinematic (as opposed to simulationist or 'realistic')>action-adventure, featuring characters that are clearly 'larger than >life'.>Another sign of a superheroic game is that most often (but not always) >they>feature characters with "inherent" abilities; their powers come from>within, not devices or the like. > >Feng Shui, for example, is a superheroic game. Mage can be and often >is.>(Vampire can be as well, if done wrong, but that's just an opinion. >:)) And>the canon setting for IN seems to be leading the game in that >direction. > >How does that sound for a start? Sounds about right, Jason, as always. Fortunately, I don't run my In Nomine games that way, because if I want a superhero game, I pull out Champions or Marvel's new card-based game. I personally don't think such topics as the fall of Angels, Redemption, and Hell should be accompanied by such characters as Captain Obvious and his faithful sidekick Oh-Really Boy. Granted, supers games don't always go that way, but it looks like how canon is going. Brian "who infinitely prefers Dystopian genre games" Ward > >- J > > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 16:27:24 +0100 (CET) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1036 On Sat, 5 Dec 1998, ...jason schneiderman... wrote: > Okay... how does this sound? > A "superheroic" game is one with clearly defined moral lines (good vs. > evil), lots of cinematic (as opposed to simulationist or 'realistic') > action-adventure, featuring characters that are clearly 'larger than life'. > Another sign of a superheroic game is that most often (but not always) they > feature characters with "inherent" abilities; their powers come from > within, not devices or the like. It doesn't capture all that I would call superheroic, and gets some I don't think should be there. Take Wild Cards, for example - the action is realistic (provided you accept the superpowers, that is), and it's not always easy to draw the good vs. evil line. Still, I would definitely place it in the superhero genre. OTOH, I certainly wouldn't call Mage superheroic, but that's just a gut feeling. Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! May you have the knowledge of a sage, and the wisdom of a child. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 16:56:36 +0100 (CET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: IN> Game "coolness" meta-theory continues.... On Fri, 4 Dec 1998, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > Håvard Rønne Faanes wrote: > > > Actually, I always though of In Nomine as a bit Neil Gaimanish, > > even though I couldnt fit the Endless into the Setting. > > For some earlier thoughts on the Endless in IN, see the > In Nomine archives, among the SJG web pages. In particular, see: > > http://www.sjgames.com/ftp/sjgames/in-nomine/digests/1998/3/1-685.txt > > and > > http://www.sjgames.com/ftp/sjgames/in-nomine/digests/1998/3/1-686.txt Thanks! :) > To recap what I said there, I would recommend the Endless be > their own unique variety of being, neither celestial nor ethereal. > A given Endless is more powerful than an Archangel or Demon Prince, > but less powerful than Lucifer or the united Seraphim Council. > (At least, the younger Endless are.) I agree. This is probably the best way to deal with them. Would you perhaps say that the Endless are personifications of the Words themselves, while Superiors only serve the words..? Hmmmm, this would allow for semi-endless like Chocolate and Hot Foods...Maybe we'll just leave it at that.. Haavard *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Remember, there are no stupid questions, just stupid people." -Mr Garrison, South Park. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 17:00:03 +0100 (CET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: IN> Game "coolness" meta-theory continues.... On Fri, 4 Dec 1998, Setzer Gabbiani wrote: > I myself would love to either run or play in a game set in history. maybe > during the crusades. I can see so much potential in terms of heavenly > conflicts over this stuff. some obviously opposed some obviously in favor > others on different sides of the issue. Maybe a game centered around the > children's crusade. you could have cristopher and novalis trying like > hell(pardon the expression) to stop this as perhaps malphas and saminga > feul the fervor. just an idea. I have been toying with a similar idea myself. The basic consept was having a group of Knightly Soldiers of Light serving an NPC Angel. I also thought about basing the campaign on Mallory's Arthur stories, doing a crossover with the Pendragon Game. While a 500s Feudal Britain can't actually be called historical, I think it could have been fun. :) Haavard *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Remember, there are no stupid questions, just stupid people." -Mr Garrison, South Park. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1037 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.