From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Fri Dec 18 12:35:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA31468 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 12:35:42 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id MAA11218 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 12:21:19 -0600 Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 12:21:19 -0600 Message-Id: <199812181821.MAA11218@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1060 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Friday, December 18 1998 Volume 01 : Number 1060 In this digest: Re: IN> Sensitivity (Re: Neopaganism) Re: IN> Malakim in their place Re: IN> A little something about Demon Princes Re: IN> A little something about Demon Princes Re: IN> Malakim in their place IN> INS/MV Re: IN> A little something about Demon Princes Re: IN> Bethlehem Inquiry Re: IN> Creating Archangels Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1053 Re: IN> Sensitivity (Re: Neopaganism) Re: IN> Absolute Morality Re: IN> Neopaganism IN> Plot seed, maybe IN> Theme music for Janus/Valefor... Re: IN> Absolute Truth (was Absolute Morality) Re: IN> Malakim in their place IN> Remnanats IN> Humanity IN> TSR (Was Acronyms) Re: IN> TSR (Was Acronyms) Re: IN> INS/MV Re: IN> TSR (Was Acronyms) Re: IN> Uriel IN> RE: in_nomine-digest V1 #1056 Re: IN> Absolute Morality Re: IN> Malakim in their place Re: IN> Absolute Morality Re: IN> Malakim in their place ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 09:12:28 +1030 From: Simon Hailes Subject: Re: IN> Sensitivity (Re: Neopaganism) > Sigh, The Craft had nothing to do with real witchcraft, neither does > Sabrina, neither does anything on Buffy the vampire Slayer, neither does Wyrd > Sisters, a very funny novel by Terry Pratchett (whic I urge you! all to > read). And thanks for calling me a fanatic, I didnt know that asking for a > little slack was fanatic, but obviously to you, the wiccans on this list, I > am, and everyone else. A little PC would be nice you know, just a > little.....sigh Simon, Pagans were around long b4 the concept of a 'Media' Hailes ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 09:24:10 +1030 From: Simon Hailes Subject: Re: IN> Malakim in their place If the Malakim could be likened to a comic book hero, well I would liken them to the Punisher, he shows no compromise with his foes, he just blows them away. Then goes off bemoaning his plight (like most heroes do) , however, do you think that is how God saw it that all problems be fixed, with a gun, a knife, and a no-compromising attitude. I think the Malakim are last ditch, final chance, your last ticket out of here, tool for the Heavenly cause. I would try Seraphim, Kyriotates and just about every other choir before sending the malaks in, with a whispered 'we can't help him, do what you gotta do'. Oh yes, good point brought up just before, if Yves is the only one with a direct link with God, how could Uriel know what he was doing was right? (but that is something up to the GM, how did God feel about the Crusade, and more importantly, did she really notice?) Simon, Mr more moderation with Malakim commitee ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 18:30:01 -0500 From: neel@cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Subject: Re: IN> A little something about Demon Princes maya@tcp.co.uk (GR Cogman) wrote: > >Okay, so I last weekend managed to get hold of a copy of the French original >- - In Nomine Satanis / Magna Veritas - and a few sourcebooks to go with it. >And I just thought this paragraph might amuse... > >"The heart of Hell is the High Council that meets every night from 9pm till >midnight, and which all the Demon Princes attend. If the day's agenda isn't >very busy, the Princes eat, chat, and play all sorts of games (from Vache >qui Tache (translator's note - I suspect this is on the order of Snakes and >Ladders) to GURPS, Advanced Squad Leader, and Trivial Pursuit." I've only seen bits and pieces of INS/MV myself, but it's an absolutely relentless satire -- whenever the writers faced a choice between maintaining good taste, and internal consistency versus taking a cheap shot, they *always* chose to take the cheap shot. This is not a bad thing, mind, as long as you're not a Catholic who takes your religion too seriously.... - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 00:08:47 GMT From: maya@tcp.co.uk (GR Cogman) Subject: Re: IN> A little something about Demon Princes >maya@tcp.co.uk (GR Cogman) wrote: >> >>Okay, so I last weekend managed to get hold of a copy of the French original >>- - In Nomine Satanis / Magna Veritas - and a few sourcebooks to go with it. >>And I just thought this paragraph might amuse... >> >I've only seen bits and pieces of INS/MV myself, but it's an absolutely >relentless satire -- whenever the writers faced a choice between maintaining >good taste, and internal consistency versus taking a cheap shot, they >*always* chose to take the cheap shot. This is not a bad thing, mind, as >long as you're not a Catholic who takes your religion too seriously.... Yes, that's a very fair summary, from what I've read so far. The tone is remorselessly scathing. For some reason, my players are talking of sending a ninja squad to steal these books before I get too many interesting ideas. Can't think why... (now, where was that writeup for Aballam again?) - --- Maya, Elohite of Eli in service to Blandine maya@tcp.co.uk - -- "There are those who say that wizards are subject to temptations and addictions beyond the understanding of ordinary men: the addiction to shape-changing, or to meditation under the influence of certain herbs and conditions of the stars; the obsession with knowledge, and the development of power. Yet this is not so. Temptation is temptation, obsession is obsession, and choice is choice." - Isar Chelladan, Precepts of Wizardry. -- "Dog Wizard", Barbara Hambly. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 19:19:26 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> Malakim in their place On Wed, 16 Dec 1998, Simon Hailes wrote: > If the Malakim could be likened to a comic book hero, well I would liken > them to the Punisher, he shows no compromise with his foes, he just > blows them away. Then goes off bemoaning his plight (like most heroes > do) , however, do you think that is how God saw it that all problems be > fixed, with a gun, a knife, and a no-compromising attitude. This makes sense, assuming you believe that all Malakim are the stereotypical Malakite. But they are not. It is true that they are warriors, and that the archetypal Malakite (Uriel) was one of the greatest warriors of Heaven. But they are not all combatants. They all swear the same Oath: "I will not suffer an evil to live if it is my choice", but the Word they serve shades they war they combat that evil. War, the Sword, Purity, Stone, and Fire are the most likely to produce the "a gun, a knife" Malakim you speak of above. But even among the Malakim of these Words, they are not all the same. There are more ways to fight Hell than violence. Sometimes, that violence can even promote the cause of Hell. The wise Malakite knows this. Some Malakim become involved in social work, trying to root out the causes of evil (despair, hopelessness, etc.). Some become councelors, trying to "suffer not an evil to live" by destroying the evil inside the person, not the evil itself. > I think the Malakim are last ditch, final chance, your last ticket out > of here, tool for the Heavenly cause. I would try Seraphim, Kyriotates > and just about every other choir before sending the malaks in, with a > whispered 'we can't help him, do what you gotta do'. Again, that depends on how they are used. As warriors, they are the final resort of Heaven. But they have other uses. As an example (IMC), Triads of Judgement are always composed of a Seraph, a Malakite, and a Mercurian. The Seraph is to learn the Truth of what happened. The Malakite is to learn what motivated the occurence. The Mercurian is to determine whether or not the person(s) involved are truely repentant. > Oh yes, good point brought up just before, if Yves is the only one > with a direct link with God, how could Uriel know what he was doing was > right? (but that is something up to the GM, how did God feel about the > Crusade, and more importantly, did she really notice?) Actually, I'm not entirely certain that Yves is the only one with a direct link to God. As I understand Words (and please, correct me if I'm wrong), a Word is a connection to a specific part of the Symphony. Since God is the Symphony, that would logically mean that each Archangel has a direct link to the part of God that they represent. Uriel has a direct link to the part of God that is Purity. Gabriel has a link to the part of God that is Fire. Michael has a link to the part of God that is War. As a result, Uriel knew that the part of God which is Purity approved. And because he is Purity incarnate (thanks to his Word), he reacted to an impure situation in the only way he could: he set about purifying it. This is not to say that the Crusade is the only way the matter could have been handled. But it was the only way in which Uriel could have concieved of handling it. Had Blandine felt the need to take action, it would have been done differently; the same if any other Archangel had felt moved upon to deal with the Ethereals. Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit my web page: Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto Currently dedicated to In Nomine, Planescape, and Waste World - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 16:29:10 -0800 (PST) From: Robert Knop Subject: IN> INS/MV > I've only seen bits and pieces of INS/MV myself, but it's an absolutely > relentless satire -- whenever the writers faced a choice between maintaining > good taste, and internal consistency versus taking a cheap shot, they > *always* chose to take the cheap shot. This is not a bad thing, mind, as > long as you're not a Catholic who takes your religion too seriously.... ...and as long as you don't want a game with at least a semblance of consistency, and which you have the option of playing in a serious mode! :) - -Rob ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 19:29:55 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) From: "Emily K. Dresner" Subject: Re: IN> A little something about Demon Princes > Yes, that's a very fair summary, from what I've read so far. The tone is > remorselessly scathing. For some reason, my players are talking of sending a > ninja squad to steal these books before I get too many interesting ideas. > Can't think why... (now, where was that writeup for Aballam again?) HAH! It's not a threat! The Ninjas are on route as we speak! I have provided them with a map. My trip wasn't a visit, it was a scouting mission. Save us, oh Ninjas! - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 19:02:02 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Bethlehem Inquiry At 8:59 AM -0500 12/17/98, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >Neel Krishnaswami wrote: > >> Wow -- I liked this an awful lot; it was a nice Christmas present to >> the list. :) Are you going to put it up on the web somewhere? > >Thank you, and thanks to the others who wrote they liked it. >I don't have a web page, but I'm kinda hoping it'll make it >into the In Nomine Collection... Well, hopefully I didn't break all of Em's stuff when I sent it in... (Ought to be at the fiction page now.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 19:06:01 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Creating Archangels At 9:21 AM -0500 12/17/98, Neel Krishnaswami wrote: >Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >>And if God is a hopped up Ethereal, he simply created the "Eldest Angels" >>with the *memories* of being around to create the universe. So they're >>a little fuzzy -- that's what happens when you've lived that long... > >God isn't an ethereal god; it simply isn't consistent with what's >known about how ethereals work. He's not an *equal* ethereal god anymore, that's for sure. But some ethereal gods say they remember when He/She/It was just one of them. So, if you believe them (and what celestial does?), then obviously YHWH figured out some trick to make a quantum jump... >At the time of the purity crusade, in 745 AD, a single archangel and >his host -- i.e., Uriel -- was strong enough to take on and wipe out >ALL of the ethereals combined, without help from anyone else. But were the ethereals teamed up, or were the various pantheons sharing power between several members, etc.? Interesting questions. >>(Go ahead, tell Michael he was created sometime in pre-history and >>all his memories are lies. I double-dare ya. Mind you, in my campaign, >>he'd only get whether you *believed* that or not. Blocked at CD 4! It's >>too close to God for him to get the TRUTH! Buwhahahahaha!) > >So tell him he's never seen what a dinosaur or mammoth looked like; no >reference to God there, and you can infer what you want to know from the >answer. Actually, since that is dependant on him being created with his memories by this God, it would fall directly into the same "Knowing the nature of God" Block, IMC. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 19:20:34 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1053 At 6:19 AM -0800 12/17/98, Martin Arnold wrote: >I asked a serioud question and i get fobbed off wityh this kind of crap >(yes i said it - i make no apologies!) > >HAVE YOU NO FAITH IN MY APPRECIATION TO ASSUME THAT I WONT BUY THIS >BOOK ANYWAY? CAN YOU NOT GIVE ME A STRAIGHT ANSWER? Because I *ALREADY* dealt with *all* that fragging stuff once, and I don't feel like typing in umpty jillion things right off the bat. (And because all the stuff you asked, IIRC, was actually in the main book in the first place -- at the least, no fewer than 13 Forces. Usually distincted. Word-bound to the Tether. Kindly read page 59 of the main _In Nomine_ rulebook, in particular the first paragraph beneath the "D-HEAD" of "Seneschals.") All of which was also posted by someone else, before I wrote mine, again IIRC. Also, in case you didn't actually *look*, there are *exerpts* at the URL I gave. Some of those may or may not be useful to you for Tethers. (For instance, the ones in FotM oughta be useful to those with Geas questions, at least a little.) Don't gripe at the Djinn Princess. It just gets her annoyed. - --Beth, Demon Princess of Nitpicking http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/articles/INChar/Demons/Prince.Beth.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 19:20:26 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Sensitivity (Re: Neopaganism) No more flaming on this thread. Anyone flaming is going to get a very peeved Djinn Princess private email message from me, and I *do* have my flaming sword out. - --Beth, List Admin, and currently in a *VERY* bad mood ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 19:34:12 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Absolute Morality At 7:44 PM +0000 12/17/98, Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: >w (???) said: >(The first bit quotes someone else I don't know who) >>>>No, I don't think so -- one of the open questions in the game, as I see >>>>it, is: "Is God good? Or is he just some hopped-up ethereal playing >>>>with his human toys? Or even if he *is* the creator of all things, does >>>>this necessarily mean he's good? Or just powerful? And is he even >>>>*sane*...?" >> >>Extend the game to reality. Look at the trees outside your house. Sanity >>created that. Our planet, it's life...God created it all. Satan cannot >>create, but can pervert and twist what is already there. (Let's ignore the >>Duck Billed Platypus for now, I have no idea where that came from) If you >>cannot take God as infallible and good, then the game kinda loses it's >>point... > >Firstly how (in game) do you know that God creates and Lucifer perverts - >Probably because all the angels told you so - now should you believe >something just because someone tells you it is so? (Grammar note: does a >rhetorical question need a question mark? :-) ) (Nitpicking note: yes. }:>) (And the general reminder that, in the game, it is perfectly legit to have some... doubt... as to whether God *is* good, or Good, or even perhaps that he *is*, if the GM is really sneaky. Real life, that's a whole 'other thing, and let's just *not* go there with religious beliefs on the list.) >One ammendment that would need to be made for such a game is that with a >check digit of 5 or 6 a Seraph doesn't find the actual Truth they find the >Truth according to God's doctrine. Nice and wicked. And you certainly don't even have to tell the PCs this. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 19:46:04 -0500 From: Chad and Erin Subject: Re: IN> Neopaganism At 04:03 PM 12/15/98 +1030, you wrote: > > >Chad and Erin wrote: > >> At 07:23 PM 12/16/98 -0500, you wrote: >> >At 2:24 PM -0500 12/15/98, Ben Aldred wrote: >> >>Just wondring how neopaganism(wicca and so forth) fits into the overall In >> >>Nomine universe. Is the resurgence of these neopagan religions the result >> >>of some ethereals at work or is it perhaps an alternate interpretation put >> >>forth by some archangel like novalis or something like that. Just >> >>wondering what people think >> >> Just blame it on Nybbas, it's easy to blame it on TV. >> >> -w > >Hmmm, :I, that was not cool, nor funny, if your going to insult other peoples >religious beliefs in such a way then you can go somewhere else, it wont be >tolerated here. > >Simon I think, Simon, you misunderstand my response. If you read the Revelations II: The Marches, it makes a very specific comment about the rumour that some ethereals were making deals with Nybbas to get more TV time, to raise awarenss and thus, maybe, more followers. As for insulting anyone, uh, no. *buzz* wrong answer. - -w ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 20:29:23 -0500 From: Perestroika Subject: IN> Plot seed, maybe I have Simon to thank for this. I should be packing, damn it. ;) - -- You see the advertisements, on television and in magazines. You read the articles, you hear the radio spots. You drive past the corner shops on your way to work, or walk past the slightly more prominent stores in the mall. People on the street approach you, trying to sell you a crystal on a pendant or a "book of arcane secrets". The omnipresent "The End Is Nigh" signbearers have a slightly more worried look on their faces, a look that urges you either to take cover or to prepare for the upcoming armageddon. Movies, television shows, serial books all are now becoming more and more occult-oriented. You watch as people start dressing in anachronistic fashions and carrying outdated weapons, all with the same slightly anxious looks on their faces, and you watch the police simply not caring about it. Your friends, your neighbors, your family are all being drawn in by the trend of witchcraft. Churches, synagogues, mosques, congregations of every denomination are being decimated. Someone's rallying the witches, the warlocks, the neopagans, the followers of the Ethereals. And it's not the Ethereals that are doing it. - -- This is just a seed, nothing more. What happens now is up to you; do the Ethereals start looking to the Host for help? Does an Archangel - or a Demon Prince - notice this and get concerned? Have the PCs discovered this on their own and decided to follow up? Okay, time for me to take off. I may be unsubscribing for the winter break; if I do, I'll see y'all mid-January. :) - -EDG, Mercurian of Jean, over and out. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 18:10:36 -0800 From: "B.H." Subject: IN> Theme music for Janus/Valefor... I came across this little gem in my collection, which seems to be a pretty good themesong for Janus, and raises more connection about his Valeforian connections (and yes, I do like country. Not bad country. Only good country.) The more I think about it, the more this song makes me think that maybe Janus decided that there was something to learn from the demons- and decided to help out any renegades who wanted to go heaven bound. Maybe a plot seed, maybe I'm crazy. ^_^ "Renegades, Rebels, and Rogues" They come from the wrong side of the tracks Born a breed apart Cain't tie 'em up, cain't pin 'em down They're playing to some old star They'll chase that restless spirit, wherever the four winds blow There's another dream, just around the bend For Renegades, Rebels, and Rogues Renegades, Rebels, and Rogues Eyes of fire, hearts of gold They ramble til they drop, gamble til the money runs out They'll take any wrong direction- it's in their blood you know That all roads lead to another road For Renegades, Rebels, and Rogues Daughters love 'em, daddies hate 'em, Mommas don't understand Whenever deals 'em down and dirty, they just play 'em another hand Yeah, there's a place in heaven for those wild and kindred souls They'll be raisin' hell til then- Renegades, Rebels, and Rogues Renegades, Rebels, and Rogues Eyes of fire, hearts of gold They ramble til they drop, gamble til the money runs out They'll take any wrong direction- it's in their blood you know That all roads lead to another road For Renegades, Rebels, and Rogues Aw, c'mon! They'll take any wrong direction- it's in their blood you know That all roads lead to another road For Renegades, Rebels, and Rogues! See, I can almost form the scene in my head... Maybe a play just before the start of Armageddon... Janus/Valefor reveals to it's most trustworthy followers that he's the same person. He's been gathering servitoirs together for one big purpose- the most massive break-out ever, freeing hordes of Redeemable Renegade Demons, Demons who *want* to Renegade to Redeem... and sending most of Hell's souls into Limbo, Heaven, or reincarnation. As the Olfanites on blockade-running duty charge up the engines of special celestial vehicles for the run... J/V lets out a special, maximized version of the Corporeal Song Of Motion, designed to enhance the olfanim's natural resonances and send them speeding through hell- and back out- faster than anyone could imagine. What's the song? (thumping out of the RebelRunners' (the vehicles) radios?) "Renegades, Rebels, and Rogues." - -- Berian, Demon of Imagination. "Yes, it is country. So?" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 02:33:11 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> Absolute Truth (was Absolute Morality) Earl Wajenberg wrote on 16 December 1998 >Another formulation of Goedel's Theorem is: "All formal systems >that include arithmetic contain true statements that cannot be >proved true within that formal system." > >You can enlarge the formal system to make those statements proveable, >but then new unproveable statements will crop up. > >One philosophical upshot is that no formalized system of rules >can capture ALL truth. But then, no metaphysical system humans >would find at all interesting is "formalized" within the meaning >of the term as used in mathematical logic. > >Mathematical statements of physical law, on the other hand, ARE >so formalized, and therefore demonstrably cannot include all truths. Wait a sec, sure in order to belive in something to be true it should be prooved, but just because something can't be prooved to be true it doesn't mean it isn't. Before elliptic curves (or whatever) were discovered Fermat's Last Theroem (note: Why was it called a theroem when it wasn't prooved, surely it was a conjecture) couldn't (well that's debateable but I think you'll get my point) be prooved, but it was still true. Ramesh ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 03:28:24 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> Malakim in their place On 18 December 1998 Richard Gant Wrote: (based on this comment from me: This is very dodgy ground but here I go: Purity to me has a very dogmatic ring about it (everyone will conform to these exact specifications [am I the only person to see this]). IMO no-one except Yves has a direction connection to God so each angel acts through their personal connection to the Symphony. Uriel's connection was highly coloured by his Word and because of this he wanted to *cleanse* the Symphony of that which was not created by God.) >Actually, I'm not entirely certain that Yves is the only one with a direct >link to God. As I understand Words (and please, correct me if I'm wrong), >a Word is a connection to a specific part of the Symphony. Since God is >the Symphony, that would logically mean that each Archangel has a direct >link to the part of God that they represent. Uriel has a direct link to >the part of God that is Purity. Gabriel has a link to the part of God >that is Fire. Michael has a link to the part of God that is War. As a >result, Uriel knew that the part of God which is Purity approved. And >because he is Purity incarnate (thanks to his Word), he reacted to an >impure situation in the only way he could: he set about purifying it. Right I'm not entirely certain on this but let my explain how I see it: If for a moment you concider the entire Symphony to be a living organism, and each object, person, angel, demon, or whatetever is a cell in the organism then God is the Mind of the organism, rather than the organism itself. Now I think that resonances/attunements/Words work by being in connection to some process within the organism rather than by being in connection with the mind of the organism. Now if you don't have a connection to the Mind then you could try to understand the organism and or the Mind by looking at the the rest of the organism, so people who have been around longer or have more understanding the world in general would usually have a better understanding of God - but that understanding will always be coloured by their perceptions, whilst Yves being a manifestation of God doesn't deal with taht kind of thing. I guess you're probably right that the only way Uriel could concieve of dealing with the problem he saw was the Crusade, but I just can't condone such genocide except as the final resort to a horrendously problematic situation and maybe Uriel saw it as a horrendously problematic situation but I don't think he tried other methods. Ramesh Elohite of Flowers??? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 03:51:45 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: IN> Remnanats What happens to a Kyriotate or Shedite who loses all their Celestial forces? P 68 of IN (just before Loss of Corporeal Forces) says "A Celestial who is completely lacking in one type of Force gains a Discord of that type" - So does a remnant begining the game start with some Celstial discord? Also p68 of IN "Resonance involving Perception simply don't affect him" - what exactly does that mean? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 03:55:32 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: IN> Humanity The Humanity attunement (Servitor Attunement of Asmodeus IN p161) has been pussling me for a while: "This attunement lets a demon pass as a human under any circumstance, to anyone - except Lucifer" What happens under the following circumstances: A Balseraph using this attunement is inspected by a Malakite using their resonance who gets a check digit of 6, Someone detects they have more than forces than a human could have (using aura glasses [LR p51], someone sees they have 16+ essence in them, a Seraph of Eli infers they have a stat above 10 by using their servitor attunement, etc, etc), The user has the aura discord, Ramesh ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 20:53:12 PST From: "David Streeter" Subject: IN> TSR (Was Acronyms) Ramesh wrote... >Thanks to every one who replied to my call for help it was most kind: >Thanks especially to Elizabeth McCoy who ended my wonderings on What >TSR >meant: > >>TSR = TSR > :-) Actually, I think that TSR is actually what TSR stands for nowadays. I think originally it was something like "Tactical and Strategic Resources" or somesuch. I know the "R" doesn't stand for "Roleplaying", because TSR predate the genre. They started off as a wargaming company, I believe. Perhaps some crusty old wargamer of Michael on the list will know... :-) [The Word of Wargaming - Baal, Asmodeus, or Michael?] Actually, you can still see some wargaming in AD&D.. the whole AC/THAC0 (Armour Class and "To Hit Armour Class Zero" for you non-AD&D types*) system, also the concept of "Character Class" (read: Unit Identification)- very wargamer. I usually explain Choir and Band to new players in AD&D terms - "Choir/Band" is analogous to "Race", "Superior" is analogous to "Class". Okay, I'll shut up now before I get REALLY off-topic. Surtur Habbalite of Factions, Angel of Constructive Criticism * You don't play AD&D? Shame on you! ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 98 00:16 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> TSR (Was Acronyms) >:-) Actually, I think that TSR is actually what TSR stands for nowadays. > >I think originally it was something like "Tactical and Strategic >Resources" or somesuch. I know the "R" doesn't stand for "Roleplaying", >because TSR predate the genre. They started off as a wargaming company, >I believe. "Tactical Studies Rules", actually. >Perhaps some crusty old wargamer of Michael on the list will know... :-) I'm not a wargamer, nor a Servitor of Michael, and I hope I'm not particularly crusty.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 06:18:15 +0000 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: IN> INS/MV At 16:29 17/12/98 -0800, you wrote: >> I've only seen bits and pieces of INS/MV myself, but it's an absolutely >> relentless satire -- whenever the writers faced a choice between maintaining >> good taste, and internal consistency versus taking a cheap shot, they >> *always* chose to take the cheap shot. This is not a bad thing, mind, as >> long as you're not a Catholic who takes your religion too seriously.... > >...and as long as you don't want a game with at least a semblance of >consistency, and which you have the option of playing in a serious mode! > There is such a thing as consistency of tone. jo ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 01:40:16 EST From: BillionSix@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> TSR (Was Acronyms) In a message dated 12/17/98 11:05:04 PM Central Standard Time, david_streeter@hotmail.com writes: > :-) Actually, I think that TSR is actually what TSR stands for nowadays. > > I think originally it was something like "Tactical and Strategic > Resources" or somesuch. I know the "R" doesn't stand for "Roleplaying", > because TSR predate the genre. They started off as a wargaming company, > I believe. Tactical Studies Rules. Brian ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 02:34:17 -0500 From: dahak Subject: Re: IN> Uriel On Tue, Dec 15, 1998 at 09:06:58PM -0500, Chad and Erin wrote: > Uriel was a hero to be commended for doing something no other angel would > undertake, the cleansing of the Symphony. The other angels should have > been ashamed of themselves for not thinking of it sooner. > That's one interpretation. Another is that by destroying the Ethereal Gods, he was attacking the Free Will of the humans who created them, which some might consider a Bad Thing. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. And he had decided that his Word defined the symphony [or to be slightly more pedantic that only those things which are pure are part of the symphony and that he the Angel of Purity got to decide what was pure.] Which is at best only a hairs breath away from Falling, even if in a different direction from Lucifer. We also only know that God Disappeared Uriel when he was confronted by those angels who's efforts in the war he had made more difficult [Dreams, Animals, Judgement]. We have no Knowledge of what God did with him, which could include anything from making him litter monitor for the higher heavens through imprisoning him in a giant tesseract made from the material of the Ain Sof to stripping him of his forces and recycling them to augment selected minions. The worry is what happens if and when he comes back, especially if he has convinced himself that the Symphony can only contain that which is in some way Uriel [Shades of Legion anyone?] Also the statement that Dominic has been looking out for those who wish to finish Uriel's Crusade. Can be taken to mean that Judgement wants to make sure they don't try rather than the more usual to get them to do it interpretation. God has in a fashion spoken and Dominic is willing to accept God's judgement over his own. Adam Inez " So you don't think Flying saucers are from other planets?" Salim "No" Inez "Where do they come from then? Salim "Antarctica." Inez" but no one lives there." Salim "Except the Nazi's" Inez "Nazi's?" Salim "Yes, I've been trying to find the Icecastle for decades now, but they have a lot of very high tech help from somewhere.." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 02:34:13 -0500 From: dahak Subject: IN> RE: in_nomine-digest V1 #1056 So, if you're in the Marches one night, and are mugged by a guy with a deer's head and a pack of hounds, don't worry too much, the Tsayadim are on their way... Mark Or you've just been steamrollered by the Tsayadim, or Jordi and Friends... Adam Salim " Let me see if I can get this straight, they are suggesting that I should have an office in a basement because Special Agent Mulder has one in Washington." Inez "That's because he's strange." Salim " He's one of the counties leading experts on the psychology of mass murders, so of course he's strange, after all knowing that much about humans would confuse anybody. But he seemed perfectly pleasant when I met him." Inez " He believes in Flying Saucers too." Salim" Yes, but they are only our problem if they fail to fill in valid flight plans" Inez "What?" Salim" Well we don't have to arrest them until they break federal flight regulations do we?" Inez "Look just don't talk about flying saucers to the others or they put you in the office next to his." Salim "That's quite a nice office, but I prefer the view from mine, and it's a lot more convenient for work." Inez " Look, I think I'm going to have to explain this some other time." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 14:28:28 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Absolute Morality On Thu, Dec 17, 1998 at 07:34:12PM -0500, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > (And the general reminder that, in the game, it is perfectly legit to > have some... doubt... as to whether God *is* good, or Good, or even > perhaps that he *is*, if the GM is really sneaky. For some reason, I'm reminded of the way Mithredath cites the world's imperfection as evidence of God's goodness, because if it was perfect it would be stagnant and boring, and there would be no way anyone could achieve anything. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "Warfare is the Tao of deception. Thus although capable, display incapability to them. When committed to employing your forces, feign inactivity. When [your objective] is nearby, make it appear as if distant; when far away, create the illusion of being nearby." -Sun Tzu, the Art of War. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 09:58:20 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> Malakim in their place On Fri, 18 Dec 1998, Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: > I guess you're probably right that the only way Uriel could concieve of > dealing with the problem he saw was the Crusade, but I just can't condone > such genocide except as the final resort to a horrendously problematic > situation and maybe Uriel saw it as a horrendously problematic situation > but I don't think he tried other methods. I really don't think genocide is the way to describe what Uriel did. Remember that he alowed entire pantheons to leave the Corporeal realm unscathed (the spirits of the Australian Dreamtime, for instance). Just that fact leads me to believe that he did try and continued to try other methods to resolve the Crusade; it's just that those methods turned into gunboat diplomacy at times. Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit my web page: Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto Currently dedicated to In Nomine, Planescape, and Waste World - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 09:49:20 -0800 From: Greg Jensen Subject: Re: IN> Absolute Morality At 12:23 PM 12/17/98 +0100, you wrote: >On Wed, 16 Dec 1998, Chad and Erin wrote: > >> Extend the game to reality. Look at the trees outside your house. Sanity >> created that. Our planet, it's life...God created it all. Satan cannot >> create, but can pervert and twist what is already there. (Let's ignore the >> Duck Billed Platypus for now, I have no idea where that came from) If you >> cannot take God as infallible and good, then the game kinda loses it's >> point... > >Or evolution, which is, IMO, more probable. Plus the fact that insane >people can still create things - look at all those whacky painters, for >example. ;) > >I can't see how the game requires God (in the game) to be infallible and >good. The angels, with some very few exceptions, will certainly think so, >but that doesn't make it true. This gave me a new idea. What if God was created by humans instead of vice-versa. Perhaps the power of the faith of humans actually gave God and heaven form in the Marches. This would explain why God seems to be a conglomeration of Christian, Muslim, and Judaiic religions. Everybody's different faith affected him in different ways. So humans evolved, came up with myths and started worshipping gods, and those gods took form from the belief of the worshippers. Just a possibility. Greg Jensen http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~gjensen/gregpage.htm ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 10:21:12 -0800 From: Greg Jensen Subject: Re: IN> Malakim in their place I see very little actual difference between Habbalah and Malakim. Both think they need to be total bastards for God. I suppose you could argue that torturing and killing are somehow good things when done by the Malakim, but that's going to be a hard sell. Yes, I know not all Malakim are like that, and most probably are not. But you have to admit, there is no shortage of bad apples spoiling their barrel. The problem stems from the fact that Malakim do not Fall. Ever. There are really only two explanations for that: 1) Malakim never do anything wrong. Whatever you see a Malakite doing, you can rest assured that he is acting completely good. The description of Malakim in the main book dispelled that notion for me entirely. Hit someone on the head with a 2X4 to see if he's mortal or not? They seem like violent fanatics to me, just like the Habbalah. 2) Malakim are expected to do plenty of "dirty work," and to sometimes cross that line that angels are not supposed to cross. As a result, they have an inherent immunity to Falling, to keep Hell from getting them. They are given more leeway than any other angel because they need to be able to act cruelly at times. They are not the most moral of angels, quite the contrary. They are the ultimate anti-heroes, mean and vicious people fighting for the side of the Angels. Greg Jensen http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~gjensen/gregpage.htm ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1060 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.