From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Dec 22 12:55:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA23265 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 12:55:58 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id MAA09725 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 12:42:57 -0600 Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 12:42:57 -0600 Message-Id: <199812221842.MAA09725@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1066 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, December 22 1998 Volume 01 : Number 1066 In this digest: Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade IN> Seals vs. Charm Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade IN> Uriel's Crusade IN> Uriel's Crusade Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade - Historical Accuracy IN> Uriel's Crusade - Historical Accuracy IN> Uriel's Crusade - Historical Accuracy Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade Re: IN> Marc's Name Re: IN> Malakim in their place (now Uriel's Crusade) Re: IN> Celestial Interventions Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade Re: IN> Malakim in their place (now Uriel's Crusade) Re: IN> Ethereals IN> Marc's name IN> Bile from the bottom of my belly! Re: IN> Malakim in their place (now Uriel's Crusade) Re: IN> Malakim in their place (now Uriel's Crusade) Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade Re: IN> Celestial Interventions Re: IN> Orphans Re: IN> Celestial Interventions Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 21 Dec 98 14:20:49 PST From: nick jost Subject: Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade > Anders Gabrielsson wrote: > > Hurm. If humans look to God, they'll look and look and don't get > > anything back until after they die, in canon. God doesn't take a > > direct hand in the life of His believers. His angels do it, from > > time to time, but the Big Guy Himself doesn't do anything. > > Sure He does -- every time anyone, human or celestial, rolls a 111. > > Earl Yeah! Duh! :) - -- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 15:31:35 -0800 From: Jason Tondro Subject: IN> Seals vs. Charm Note: I'm not a member of the list, so please direct replies to jvester@earthlink.net Will the Song of Ethereal Seals stop any or all versions of the Song of Charm? Thanks, Jason ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 18:08:06 -0600 From: "James Bearse" Subject: Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade I hate to enter the discussion at this late date, but it seems to me that Good and Evil and all related subphenomenae are really unrelated to Uriel and his Crusade. Uriel's word of Purity, when extended to the Symphony as a whole, seems to have said to him "Go forth and destroy all that which is not God's creation." Whether ethereals were nice or naughty was irrelevant; they had been conjured out of the minds of men, not God. This made them flawed, and dark notes in the Pure Symphony. So they had to be removed. Note that this interpretation would suggest that Uriel would have stood against several other AAs, particularly Eli, and that, if he hadn't been recalled, some of mankind's later inventions might have been deemed impure as well... atomic energy, cloning, genetic engineering... who knows? Savage Wombat jim-and-brandy@worldnet.att.net ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 21:45:25 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Uriel's Crusade >>>Whether the Ethereals were leading their worshippers away from Heaven or not is an open question, I think.<<< Certainly. But my personal opinion is that they were. >>>A few (very few) souls ended up as Einhärjar, or other equivalents, but most were not affected in that way.<<< That's undetermined in canon, so far. But I think probably a lot of souls were being led astray by the ethereals. >>>I don't think many of the Ethereal-inspired/Ethereal-creating religions were more prone to create selfishness in humanity than Christianity/Judaism/Islam.<<< In the Real World, I agree. In In Nomine, however, I tend to think otherwise. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 21:57:44 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Uriel's Crusade >>>Not to be un-politically correct or anything but...<<< Perish the thought! ;) >>>What if most of the pantheons worshipped by the post-crusade mortals were already extinct and only passed down through echoes, whispered folklore, or demons who were quick to jump into the gap that was left?<<< That's always been my take on the Aztec gods, as well as the Norse gods. The Norse gods are actually descended from much older Germanic tribal deities -- who I figure were slaughtered by Uriel's crusade, but still worshipped and probably coopted when the Vikings came along, providing a lot of Essence to a new crop of ethereals, who were then quickly cut down by the Tsayadim and other angels who didn't want to see a resurgence in pagan worship. Just because a lot of people worshipped a particular set of deities doesn't necessarily mean there was anything actually hearing their prayers. Kinda like the real world... ;) - -David (who worships political incorrectness) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 18:47:14 -0800 From: "Kelly St.Clair" Subject: Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade - Historical Accuracy >> Maybe. Not that I would mind sitting down and writing the Crusade, >> or at least the Ethereal bits so they made sense and had some sort >> of cohesion with reality. Somehow I seriously doubt that I would be >> the one doing the rewriting even if it got rewritten, for various sundry >> reasons. It would mean that it would have to be historically correct, >> and we can't have that. It would buck the trend! :) > >Not for SJ; I meant, write it on e-paper. So that those of us who want a >more historically accurate setting can do so without, y'know, having to >pay for it. Leaving the poor souls without net access to wander in the wilderness... Perhaps it's just my net.elitism kicking in, but it really seems like IN is one of those games/settings for which the "unofficial" material is often better - more consistent, better researched, contains fewer broken or untested mechanics - than the published canon. (Revelations Cycle, anyone?) A lot of traffic on this list seems to be about fixing or explaining things that are perceived as broken, or which could be broken if carried to an extreme that's probably further than the designers imagined. I also see this on the Traveller list, and it completely dominates the Ars Magica list. (Is it that these games attract history and statistics majors?) Are game companies now following the example of the computer software industry, which regularly seems to release beta-level products, take people's money for allowing them to quality-test it, and then put out an update which actually works mostly as advertised? (*cough*White Wolf*cough*) No disrespect meant to the esteemed Arch-Dean or other SJG-connected personages on the list. Perhaps it's just that a team of twenty or so game writers cannot hope to produce and rigorously test anywhere near the amount of material that a fan community of hundreds, many of them experts in various fields, can. Let it not be forgotten, either, that said community also produces great piles of steaming c**p along with the acknowledged "gems." It just seems a shame that IN is not considered to be a working game out of the box. - -------------- Kelly St.Clair kellys@efn.org ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 23:09:35 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Uriel's Crusade - Historical Accuracy >>>My memory is tickling in the back of my head, and something tells me that this date for canon was generated from a Papal degree about the Archangels and Sainthood.<<< In 745 A.D., the Vatican "demoted" a number of Archangels (notably Uriel) to Saints. I don't remember the formal name of the council, but it was some kind of Official Church Proclamation. Derek Percy used the date for that reason. One of the problems with In Nomine is that it started out being more heavily influenced by the satirical flavor of the French original. Derek Pearcy wrote a lot in that vein. (He is the one responsible for those 40 Slices of Cheese you love so much, Emily.) So he took the date of the Church's decree that Uriel was no longer an Archangel and used it as the date of Uriel's recall to Heaven in IN, because it was a cute bit of historical synchronicity. Unfortunately, cute and satirical runs afoul of consistency and historical accuracy once you start trying to make the game more serious. What's happened is that a lot of canonical decisions that were made casually early on are now causing headaches, because the mood of the game has changed significantly. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 23:23:50 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Uriel's Crusade - Historical Accuracy >>>Maybe. Not that I would mind sitting down and writing the Crusade, or at least the Ethereal bits so they made sense and had some sort of cohesion with reality. Somehow I seriously doubt that I would be the one doing the rewriting even if it got rewritten, for various sundry reasons. It would mean that it would have to be historically correct, and we can't have that. It would buck the trend! :)<<< Well, this may not comfort you much, Dresner, but I happen to be probably the #1 Uriel fan among the In Nomine writers, and I also happen to be a (very) amateur historian. I have a lot invested in Uriel canon, and I value historical accuracy too. If there is ever an expanded writeup on Uriel's crusade, there's a good chance I'll have a hand in writing it, and I _will_ try to avoid blatant historical inconsistencies like those you've pointed out. Heck, I might even solicit input from people who can refrain from ranting at me. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 03:13:46 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade David Edelstein wrote: > I wish we could declare a moratorium on quoting the back cover of >the rulebook. Agreed: The "current quote" bit was childish. >Furthermore, remember that while the average angel or demon may be not so >far removed from humans, Archangels and Demon Princes are on another plane >entirely. They are NOT much like us. Especially the Archangels, who have >vastly expanded angelic perceptions, and can see and comprehend the >Symphony on a level that lesser beings can't even imagine. Agreed - AA's aren't much like us. However the thing that started me of on this was the idea that AA's opinions weren't based on unprooveable biases, this I still disagree with IMO being Word bound (in fact even having a resonance) colours your perception of the Symphony and IMO Words aren't prooveable, which is why I see so many angels and AAs have conflicting concepts of right and wrong. IMO the Word Purity hold a great sway over Uriel and the flaws in it caused him to take his action too far. Sure he was right (or at least justified) to kill (or at least banish) the evil Ethereal (the ones who preyed upon humanity), but IMO the Ethereals who helped humanity did not deserve this. Ramesh - Elohite of Flowers ??? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 03:25:58 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade On 21 December 1998 Richard Gant wrote >On Sun, 20 Dec 1998, Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: >> "Uriel saw the Symphony as a manifestation of his own Word, a place where >> complete purity of thought, word and deed should prevail." - This sounds >> like a severe case of hubris > >Or an example of an Superior's Word shaping his view of reality. Michael >sees the Symphony as a proving ground composed purely of war and conflict. >Malphas sees the Symphony only in terms of things which can be broken into >smaller things. Novalis sees the Symphony as a place in which there >should only be peace and harmony. Uriel sees the Symphony as a place >where there should be "complete purity of thought, word and deed". Yeah, but most Celestials see that there are limits to their Word, I don't think Uriel did. >Who is right? All of them. And none of them. The Symphony encompasses >all of the Words in existance, but it is none of them. Agreed, but the way I see the quote I used Uriel didn't see it that way. Ramesh, Elohite of Flowers??? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 03:16:37 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> Marc's Name On 21 December Eslin wrote >On Mon, 21 Dec 1998, Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: >> Marc = "Follower of Mars; the Warrior" >> Erm, how does this fit Marc's nature? > I'm not aware of anywhere in the rules that it says it has to. :) > No rule, it's just suggested that angels pick names which suit their nature by APG Ramesh ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 04:03:01 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> Malakim in their place (now Uriel's Crusade) Nick Jost wrote on 21 December 1998 19:40 >> Richard Gant wrote on 18 December 1998 >> >I really don't think genocide is the way to describe what Uriel did. >> >Remember that he alowed entire pantheons to leave the Corporeal realm >> >unscathed (the spirits of the Australian Dreamtime, for instance). Just >> >that fact leads me to believe that he did try and continued to try other >> >methods to resolve the Crusade; it's just that those methods turned into >> >gunboat diplomacy at times. >> >> >> Fine, maybe genocide was possible the wrong word - maybe comparing it to >> "racial cleansing" would make my point better. >> >> Ramesh > >Ramesh...in general this is a nice list. Free from abuse. You're walking the >line. This is a *GAME*. Look Nick, I am in no way trying to offend anyone and if I did I'm *VERY* sorry if I did. I'll take this opportunity to apologise to Richard Gant if he was was offend by my remark on his e-mail. I do understand that IN is not reality. I am niether stupid nor delusional. In spite of this I stand by my comment that forcing all the ethereals to leave the Corporeal realm or die is similar to racial cleansing. If that offends you - or anyone - I'm sorry, but that my (quite possibly wrong) view the matter, if you disagree with me please persuade me otherwise. In game terms it could be justified because: >1.) The etherals, though it is CDaU, are lying. There claiming a special >knowledge that belongs to God. Maybe in the eyes of the law ignorance is not an excuse but in mine it is. The ethereals probably believed that they were right - Hell they were created by thoughts and belief in them being God (or whatever) and so they probably really believed that the God monotheistic religions believed in was just another ethereal. >2.) They influence earthly affairs in an un angelic way. To the angelic >mindset that's as good as being infernal. I'm not entirely sure of what you mean, by unangelic please clarify. "Some spirits became patrons, protectors and teachers of their human followers..." (The Marches p76 bottom of 1st column) surely this isn't unangelic >3.) Etherals that packed and left were for the most part ignored. I disagree: "The spirits were driven back into the depths of the Marches. Those who stood and fought it in the corporeal realm were slain by Uriel's angels. Thus perished the dragons and Most of the Lords of the Faerie. They loved the Earth too much to leave it, and they died mortal deaths. But Uriel was not satisfied. The hunters followed the spirits even into the depths of Blandine's realm, brining the Crusade into the dreams of humanity." (The Marches p77 near top of 1st column) >4.) This is a war with them, the etherals, as powerful agents of an opposing >non-conforming side. Many people don't agree with me, they aren't all my enemy. Some Ethereals helped humanity and this IMO is what angels should be doing, people don't need to conform to work together. IMO The angels will win when Earth is like Heaven and Hell will win when Earth has been draged into the pit. Ramesh, Elohite of Flowers??? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 04:13:16 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> Celestial Interventions Richard Gant wrote: > >On Mon, 21 Dec 1998, Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: > >> >Sure He does -- every time anyone, human or celestial, rolls a 111. >> >> (If you're being serious) >> So you think God intervenes in every 216 actions you make with the same >> degree that (s)he/it does for major players in the War, I personally don't. > >I think He does intervene 1 time in every 216 actions, in In Nomine. so >does Lucifer. It's just that most normal humans are not involved in major >earth-shaking actions, so they don't recieve major interventions. Just >little ones ("Oh my God! I thought for certain that I'd _failed_ that >test!" or "My check bounced!? I thought I could cover it!"). Point taken, and usually the intervention would be trivial (if you agree with the AGP and AGP that the magnitude of intervention should be proportionate to the importance of the circumstance) so we don't realise it for what it is. On a side note: wouldn't (good) humans recieve this aid regardless of whether they worshipped God. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 04:27:21 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade Nick Jost wrote on 21 December 1998 >> In what sense were Ethereal Gods enemies of God? God in IN very rarely >> hands commandments out from on high on what humans can and can't do. The >> only way (I can see) you could really say that Ethereal Gods acted against >> God the awareness of the Symphony is to help drag God to his Fate by >> dragging their followers to their Fates. >> > >Dave had an excelent post and I can't believe you missed the jist of it. I didn't miss the jist I disagreed. >Uriel's word means purity. He therefore is forced, by his nature, to encourage >purity by any means. The Etherals claimed to create the universe and be gods. >To Uriel, a seraph, that was lying unpure hogwash. He had been grumpy against >them for years and then took them to task. 1 The pagan religions which had a creator God were spared not hunted. 2 The Ethereal Gods were Gods in some sense, just not in the sense that God is God Ramesh ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 04:46:51 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade Nick Jost wrote on 21 December 1998 >Ramesh wrote: >> Intreresting idea, but I have a few questions about it: >> If God have Essence to humanity to achieve their Destiny, why do Celestials >> and Ethereals naturally regerate Essence? >> I suppose you could argue that humans use their Essence on what they most >> care about, but if God gave humans a little more control over it they could >> channel their efforts more easily, so why didn't God? >> > >I'm confused. Humans generate essence too. What are you asking? I was asking, albeit implicitly, why didn't God give humans the ability to conciously spend their essence? (which has already been answered) >> 1 Once you've given a gift to someone it is no longer yours. The Essence >> being _given_ to the Ethereals Gods was the human's property, not God's. > >But not the etherals if they were taking it....right? The Ethereals whom essence was given to didn't (IMO) commit a crime, the once who stole it did. <> >And not all of the etherals where hunted down and killed right? If Uriel were to have his way, I'm not so sure. They still >claimed to be things they weren't right? Not really Thor was a God of Lightning, Maat was a God of Justice, etc, etc, they just weren't The God >What are you attempting to prove? I was attempting to proove that not all Ethereal Gods were "Bad Guys" and that the "Good" Ethereal Gods fought with the "Bad" ones becasue they believed that their practises were wrong. >> "Uriel saw the Symphony as a manifestation of his own Word, a place where >> complete purity of thought, word and deed should prevail." - This sounds >> like a severe case of hubris >> > >And? You could easily play that Uriel is being smacked around in your >campaign. This still doesn't make the etheral's cute and cuddly. I didn't say that "that justified the Ethereals", I was suggesting that Uriel was overstepping his authority. >> "The spirits were driven back into the depths of the Marches. Those who >> stood and fought it in the corporeal realm were slain by Uriel's angels. >> Thus perished the dragons and Most of the Lords of the Faerie. They loved >> the Earth too much to leave it, and they died mortal deaths. >> But Uriel was not satisfied. The hunters followed the spirits even into >> the depths of Blandine's realm, brining the Crusade into the dreams of >> humanity." >> After the ethereals had left the corporeal realm, there was no valid reason >> (if there was on to begin with) for Uriel to continue the Crusade. The >> only reason for continuing was to satisfy Uriel's Bloodlust. > >So maybee it was too far, might have been why he was pulled up, yes? What >was objected to in the begining of this was that somehow Uriel was oppressing >minority religions. He wasn't. That he was commiting genocide. He didn't. What *I* was objecting to was that Uriel was a Hero who deserved being rewarded. Ramesh, Elohite of Flowers??? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 04:57:08 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade James Bearse wrote on 22 December 1998 >I hate to enter the discussion at this late date, but it seems to me that >Good and Evil and all related subphenomenae are really unrelated to Uriel >and his Crusade. Uriel's word of Purity, when extended to the Symphony as >a whole, seems to have said to him "Go forth and destroy all that which is >not God's creation." Whether ethereals were nice or naughty was >irrelevant; they had been conjured out of the minds of men, not God. This >made them flawed, and dark notes in the Pure Symphony. So they had to be >removed. > >Note that this interpretation would suggest that Uriel would have stood >against several other AAs, particularly Eli, and that, if he hadn't been >recalled, some of mankind's later inventions might have been deemed impure >as well... atomic energy, cloning, genetic engineering... who knows? On the same kind of line, I'm puzzled something in the Marches (p76): "Uriel saw the Symphony as a manifestation of his own Word, a place where complete purity of thought, word and deed should prevail." What exactly does it mean by: "purity of thought, word and deed". It kinda reminds me of the Cabal of Pure Thought (New World Order) from WoD, but that's just me, I'd like to hear how a pro-Uriel views it. Ramesh ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 06:53:34 -0600 From: Eeyore Subject: Re: IN> Malakim in their place (now Uriel's Crusade) Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: > Maybe in the eyes of the law ignorance is not an excuse but in mine it is. > The ethereals probably believed that they were right - Hell they were > created by thoughts and belief in them being God (or whatever) and so they > probably really believed that the God monotheistic religions believed in > was just another ethereal. From Uriel's perspective, whether they are lying or mistaken is unimportant. Either way, they are spreading a story that is false. > "The spirits were driven back into the depths of the Marches. Those who > stood and fought it in the corporeal realm were slain by Uriel's angels. > Thus perished the dragons and Most of the Lords of the Faerie. They loved > the Earth too much to leave it, and they died mortal deaths. > But Uriel was not satisfied. The hunters followed the spirits even into > the depths of Blandine's realm, brining the Crusade into the dreams of > humanity." (The Marches p77 near top of 1st column) Blandine's realm is in the Near Marches. If Uriel's hunters followed the Ethereals there, they are not pursuing those that have retreated to the Far Marches. J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 17:17:48 +0200 From: Yossi Gurvitz Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals At 17:14 21/12/98 , you wrote: >But once Christianity had been clear victor for a long time -- as >with the Greco-Roman gods by the High Middle Ages and later -- >the old gods were allowed to take on a new kind of life, or even >more than one. Mars/Ares, for instance, could be used freely in >secular literature as an allegorical figure of War personified. ...and in at least one instance, a preacher referred to "Saints Homer and Virgil" within earshot of Pope Leo X, who smiled and seemed content. Granted, Leo was a Reinessance Pope, and as such not a stickler for dogma, but still. Yours, Yossi ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 16:50:38 -0000 From: "Jo Hart" Subject: IN> Marc's name One more. There is of course a currency called the Mark. jo (So expect Marc to be changing his name to Euro any day soon...) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 09:19:53 PST From: "Martin Arnold" Subject: IN> Bile from the bottom of my belly! My turn for a rant...:-) Last time I was here (been away) i were very angry, got someone's back up it did (wont mention who) but i feel this is worthy of everyone's attention. Although everyone may well disagree. My argument was that the official people (by that i mean those who wrtie and produce that whgich we here consume - SJG in other words) are not very helpful. This isn't a personal slight, either. Dont make that mistake. My evidence is simply this: once upon a time i asked for information regarding how London is treated in the upcoming 'Liber Tethers'; i am using London for my own game and have been writing a major 'book' of my own for these purposes covering tethers etc. Now it seems unfair to me to go out and buy a book for a game i love which turns out to be a waste of money because it rubbishes my ideas in favour of the authors. Whether this will turn out to be the case remains to be seen (SJG still arent talking except to post up teasers from the book which clearly dont answer my queries). Only one person took it upon themselves to enlighten me, and they dont work for SJG. Of course the party line would have been 'subscribe to Pyramid (ie a magazine from what i have seen has little more than two or three pages of relevamnt material each issue for me) and get the playtest files'. Sorry not good enough - my pennies pay your wages mister! So if we are forced to accept John Doe's version of how IN is played (ie Canon) each time we buy a book then that doth suck AND blow! If i buy the tetherbook - and i will becasue i like IN - and find out that it doesnt have what i need (and someone could have told me) i wont be happy. We are geting short changed in this repsect. It seems there is no value placed on our fan loyalty as players of the game. Boo hiss! And this isn the fiorst instance; the straw that broke the camel's back and caused my ire was a further query. The one about seneschals and Force levels for NPC's. Fair enough if people dont or cant reply to my questions (im really not that arrogant!), but for SJG to tease me with 'hey buy the book and find out!' is very cheap. Canon sucks, not because i dont like the storyline and the ideas, but because it seems i am forced to play the game YOUR way. Of course the obvious comeback is 'Hey if u dont like it dont buy it'; but that's a cheap and nasty attitude to adopt to someone who pays your wages. If we all did that, SJG would certainly feel the pinch and IN would disappear commercially. (personally the idea of playing a cult rpg appeals to me!) Come on Mr Businessman, it's Christmas after all! PS i REALLY DO like IN! Marnie current quote: '...Bugger!' (Unlucky Alf!) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 12:23:56 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> Malakim in their place (now Uriel's Crusade) On Tue, 22 Dec 1998, Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: > Look Nick, I am in no way trying to offend anyone and if I did I'm *VERY* > sorry if I did. I'll take this opportunity to apologise to Richard Gant if > he was was offend by my remark on his e-mail. Offended? No. I just ssumed that you have a very different take on Uriel than I do. I don't agree with your position, but it certainly didn't offend me. Heck, I was worried that *I* might be getting offensive with some of this. Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit my web page: Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto Currently dedicated to In Nomine, Planescape, and Waste World - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 12:29:10 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> Malakim in their place (now Uriel's Crusade) On Tue, 22 Dec 1998, Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: > >3.) Etherals that packed and left were for the most part ignored. > > I disagree: > "The spirits were driven back into the depths of the Marches. Those who > stood and fought it in the corporeal realm were slain by Uriel's angels. > Thus perished the dragons and Most of the Lords of the Faerie. They loved > the Earth too much to leave it, and they died mortal deaths. > But Uriel was not satisfied. The hunters followed the spirits even into > the depths of Blandine's realm, brining the Crusade into the dreams of > humanity." (The Marches p77 near top of 1st column) I'd always interpreted that statement thusly (is that actually a word?): The spirits that were driven into the Marches are the ones that the Servitors of Purity followed. In war, "driven" implies that they are broken hostiles who are fleeing from their attackers. The spirits that Uriel followed into the Marches were the retreating spirits who had refused to leave Earth peacefully. Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit my web page: Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto Currently dedicated to In Nomine, Planescape, and Waste World - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 12:38:37 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade On Tue, 22 Dec 1998, Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: > On the same kind of line, I'm puzzled something in the Marches (p76): > "Uriel saw the Symphony as a manifestation of his own Word, a place where > complete purity of thought, word and deed should prevail." > > What exactly does it mean by: "purity of thought, word and deed". It kinda > reminds me of the Cabal of Pure Thought (New World Order) from WoD, but > that's just me, I'd like to hear how a pro-Uriel views it. I don't know anything about the Cabal of Pure Thought (so I won't coment on that), but here's my pro-Uriel take on the quote: Purity of thought, word, and deed is being in complete harmony with the mind and will of God. Your thoughts are the kind of thoughts God would have. Your words are the words God would speak. Your deeds are the deeds God would perform. It is a state of pure and complete righteousness. It is also a completely impossible state for any being less than God to achieve. Nevertheless, it should be the goal for all beings in the Symphony. God is the archetype and the example for all, because He created All. This purity of thought, word, and deed may be thought of as achieving union with God. You do not cease to exist as an individual, because God encompasses All. You do not lose your free will, because you have chosen freely to accept this union. Note that in my campaign, Uriel likes Taoists more than he likes many Christian sects. Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit my web page: Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto Currently dedicated to In Nomine, Planescape, and Waste World - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 12:41:43 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> Celestial Interventions On Tue, 22 Dec 1998, Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: > >I think He does intervene 1 time in every 216 actions, in In Nomine. so > >does Lucifer. It's just that most normal humans are not involved in major > >earth-shaking actions, so they don't recieve major interventions. Just > >little ones ("Oh my God! I thought for certain that I'd _failed_ that > >test!" or "My check bounced!? I thought I could cover it!"). > > Point taken, and usually the intervention would be trivial (if you agree > with the AGP and AGP that the magnitude of intervention should be > proportionate to the importance of the circumstance) so we don't realise it > for what it is. Exactly. Or, at least, that's how I do it in my game. > On a side note: wouldn't (good) humans recieve this aid regardless of > whether they worshipped God. I believe so, yes. Truely faithful worshippers (as opposed to those that give lip service to the idea) may recieve more aid,but they would be the ones performing the more important actions. Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit my web page: Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto Currently dedicated to In Nomine, Planescape, and Waste World - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 18:03:11 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Orphans On Mon, Dec 21, 1998 at 01:55:11PM -0500, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > I know there are Uriel's orphans, the Tsayadim. I would tend to refer to them as Outcasts. Are there > other orphans? Angels of Knowledge with no Raphael to report > to? Angels of Laughter who no longer report to Kobal now that > he fell from Laughter to Mockery? My understanding is that if you're Orphaned, you have two choices: you can choose to serve another Word, or you can be an Outcast. I think Laurence is too much into hierarchy to allow angels to wander around without Superiors, except for various independent members of the Seraphim Council who have been there a lot longer than he has. I would also speculate that the destruction of a Superior would crack the Hearts in its Cathedral, as the lynchpin tying the Word to Heaven was removed. Angels of Light who no longer > report to Lucifer, but perhaps keep his Cathedral dusted off, > waiting for the end of the War, when a new Archangel of Light > might be appointed? > I believe in H&H it states that only two angels go the Cathedral of Light regularly; one of them being Yves and the other being a former Elohite of Light who takes care of the place and is, IIRC, working for Yves. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "Warfare is the Tao of deception. Thus although capable, display incapability to them. When committed to employing your forces, feign inactivity. When [your objective] is nearby, make it appear as if distant; when far away, create the illusion of being nearby." -Sun Tzu, the Art of War. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Dec 98 10:22:36 PST From: nick jost Subject: Re: IN> Celestial Interventions > Richard Gant wrote: > >On Mon, 21 Dec 1998, Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: > > > >> >Sure He does -- every time anyone, human or celestial, rolls a 111. > >> > >> (If you're being serious) > >> So you think God intervenes in every 216 actions you make with the same > >> degree that (s)he/it does for major players in the War, I personally > don't. > > > >I think He does intervene 1 time in every 216 actions, in In Nomine. so > >does Lucifer. It's just that most normal humans are not involved in major > >earth-shaking actions, so they don't recieve major interventions. Just > >little ones ("Oh my God! I thought for certain that I'd _failed_ that > >test!" or "My check bounced!? I thought I could cover it!"). > Point taken, and usually the intervention would be trivial (if you agree > with the AGP and AGP that the magnitude of intervention should be > proportionate to the importance of the circumstance) so we don't realise it > for what it is. > On a side note: wouldn't (good) humans recieve this aid regardless of > whether they worshipped God. > This has been brought out before, but yes. If the humans are moving towards there destiny I wouldn't see any problem with a divine intervention providing a "good" effect. - -- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Dec 98 10:40:23 PST From: nick jost Subject: Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade I'm going to try to condense this because I think Ramesh is taking a less harsh stance now.... > Nick Jost wrote on 21 December 1998 > SNIP SOME CONFUSION ON POINTS > > >> 1 Once you've given a gift to someone it is no longer yours. The > Essence > >> being _given_ to the Ethereals Gods was the human's property, not God's. > > > >But not the etherals if they were taking it....right? > > The Ethereals whom essence was given to didn't (IMO) commit a crime, the > once who stole it did. Uriel, and others of the host, could see it differently. Impudites do that sort of thing. "Good" celestials use there own essence and beat up opponents in the war. > < Impudites>> > > >And not all of the etherals where hunted down and killed right? > > If Uriel were to have his way, I'm not so sure. > I don't think anyone disagrees with you here. There is a moral controversy over whether what Uriel did was right. It hardly amounts to genocide or racial cleansing though. The issues muddy, not that clear cut. > They still > >claimed to be things they weren't right? > > Not really Thor was a God of Lightning, Maat was a God of Justice, etc, > etc, they just weren't The God > No he's not. God created the fundamental laws that influence lightning. Jean is the maintainer of those laws. What does Thor have to do with that? > I was attempting to proove that not all Ethereal Gods were "Bad Guys" and > that the "Good" Ethereal Gods fought with the "Bad" ones becasue they > believed that their practises were wrong. > Noone disagrees with you. But don't suppose a pro-etheral audience. There are very convincing arguments that the etherals deserved everything they got and then some. > >> "Uriel saw the Symphony as a manifestation of his own Word, a place > where > >> complete purity of thought, word and deed should prevail." - This sounds > >> like a severe case of hubris > >> > > > >And? You could easily play that Uriel is being smacked around in your > >campaign. This still doesn't make the etheral's cute and cuddly. > > I didn't say that "that justified the Ethereals", I was suggesting that > Uriel was overstepping his authority. Which still doesn't make him the pathological monster you originally depicted him as. Give him more credit, and flavor. > >> "The spirits were driven back into the depths of the Marches. Those who > >> stood and fought it in the corporeal realm were slain by Uriel's angels. > >> Thus perished the dragons and Most of the Lords of the Faerie. They > loved > >> the Earth too much to leave it, and they died mortal deaths. > >> But Uriel was not satisfied. The hunters followed the spirits even into > >> the depths of Blandine's realm, brining the Crusade into the dreams of > >> humanity." > >> After the ethereals had left the corporeal realm, there was no valid > reason > >> (if there was on to begin with) for Uriel to continue the Crusade. The > >> only reason for continuing was to satisfy Uriel's Bloodlust. > > > >So maybee it was too far, might have been why he was pulled up, yes? What > >was objected to in the begining of this was that somehow Uriel was > oppressing > >minority religions. He wasn't. That he was commiting genocide. He > didn't. > > > What *I* was objecting to was that Uriel was a Hero who deserved being > rewarded. > Who said that beyond it being a very distinct possibility. Take the In Nomine position on this. What function that aided the celestial cause did the Etherals provide? The host is interested in humanity. The etherals for all purposes are just so much dreams to them. If the etherals where being more than dreams and influencing humans to their fates, what is an AA of Purity to do? He can ignore it, and wrack up tons of bad stuff. Or, he can do the thing that he is *designed* and *bound* to do. He can act within his nature and over the course of millenia pass down warnings: Uriel: You guys need to stop meddeling with humans. Etheral Host: Ah bug off. (100 Years later) Uriel: I've been giving you time and its starting to hurt. I can only hold out a while longer. EH: Ah bug off. (100 Years later) Uriel: You know after all of this time I feel, different. And the pain has made me really hate you. EH: Ah, bug off. (The Crusade) Uriel: NOW YOU WILL ALL DIE! I CAN'T HANDLE IT ANYMORE. YOU WERE WARNED YOU STUPID PUFFS OF NONSENSE. I CAN'T BELIEVE I WAS SO DELUSIONAL I TALKED TO THINGS THAT ***HUMANS*** DREAMED UP! > Ramesh, Elohite of Flowers??? - -- ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1066 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.