From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Dec 24 01:25:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA07990 for ; Thu, 24 Dec 1998 01:25:42 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id BAA26859 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 24 Dec 1998 01:15:30 -0600 Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 01:15:30 -0600 Message-Id: <199812240715.BAA26859@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1068 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, December 24 1998 Volume 01 : Number 1068 In this digest: Re: IN> Bile from the bottom of my belly! Re: IN> Faith Re: IN> [NPC] Marley, Habbalite of Saminga IN> my name is mud! IN> my name is mud! IN> Liber Canticorum (No Spoilers) Re: IN> Faith Re: IN> [NPC] Marley, Habbalite of Saminga Re: IN> [NPC] Marley, Habbalite of Saminga Re: IN> Faith Re: IN> [NPC] Marley, Habbalite of Saminga Re: IN> Malakim in their place (now Uriel's Crusade) Re: IN> Faith Re: IN> Faith Re: IN> Faith Re: IN> Faith Re: IN> Celestial Interventions Re: IN> Faith Re: IN> Malakim in their place (now Uriel's Crusade) Re: IN> Faith Re: IN> Faith Re: IN> Faith Re: IN> Faith Re: IN> Faith IN> Resources Re: IN> Faith Re: IN> Faith Re: IN> Faith ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 04:17:20 EST From: BillionSix@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Bile from the bottom of my belly! In a message dated 12/22/98 6:48:53 PM Central Standard Time, hoc@nvg.ntnu.no writes: > I think this is a good oportunity for wishing everyone a merry christmas. > Regardless of whether Santa exists or not.. ;) > Hope you dont mind me "spamming" the list with this. > > Haavard I don't mind! Merry Christmas to everyone! Even the bile guy! Brian ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 09:36:57 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Faith On Wed, Dec 23, 1998 at 12:06:43AM -0500, Casca wrote: > Answer: Ordinary humans have only 5 Forces, and must have one of each > type. Thus, a human could have a maximum of 3 Celestial Forces, which > equates to 12 points distrubited between Perception and Will. True, you > could be ridiculous and have a character with Per 1 Will 11, but a more > reasonable distribution would be in the 4-8 range. > Indeed. > Now, let's take a look at the sample Demons listed in the core book and > and use only those listed as starting characters. Adam, Will 9. Marcus, > Will 12. Sabrina, Will 12. Notice a trend forming? Yes. Shoddily designed characters. (Yes, I think a characteristic over 9 in a 9-Force angel/demon is a sign of shoddy design.) I won't go into how poorly the skills listed matched their portrayal. Let's not even mention > the fact that each of those characters has up to 9 points of Essence to blow > to boost their Resonance, whereas the sample human can only hold up to > five, must blow it -all at once-, and, on average, has only 1d-4 on average. > > In short, the average Demon will steamroll the average human -every single > time.- > I'm not entirely sure that's the case, given that I assume the average 9-Force demon has a somewhat lower Will than that. And most demons have only 7 Forces. And the demon mightn't have/want to spend Essence for whatever reason. It's largely true, however. > Most of the time, that's okay. But what about the truly pious non-Soldier > NPCs? What about decent, God-fearing Amish who live clean lives? What > about the basic premise of Christian faith that says, "If you call upon > the Lord for strength and succor, and you -truly believe-, then it shall > be granted unto you?" That's where the Faith stat comes in. > Hmm...I can see the argument you're making, but I'm not sure it's entirely merited. After all, I've made angels who have a rather low chance of resisting demonic resonances, without even taking into account the penalty(!) Elohim get for resisting the Habbalite resonance. > Toos some of those 36 cp into Faith, and Will for resisting demonic > resonance goes from 4-8 to 5-9 or even 6-10. This gives generic, > clean-living humans a -fighting chance-. Sure, Will costs the same, but Will costs 3 points to increase. Faith costs 4. I have no particular problem with this, though I'm not sure it's the right cost for it. The other problem is that normal humans get a mere 20 character points, which is something I'm not impressed by. They probably should get nearer to 36cp. > since when do normal humans get xp? > I always assumed normal humans get xp, on the grounds that they're just as alive as PCs. Granted, they probably aren't suffering the same levels of danger, but skills don't stay static over a lifetime. > Heck, even if you're playing a Soldier of God, it makes sense. Just as > you'd put points into Toughness to increase your body hits, you'd put > some points into Faith because you're going to be going up against > minions of the Adversary on a regular basis. > Well, Soldiers of God can buy Will, though I can see situations where it would be appropriate for them to buy Faith but not Will. (After a vision of Heaven, or the like.) > Don't like it, don't use it. But if you drag this out into another Uriel > thread, I'm a-gonna kill you. ;) > Too late. Now you're going to have to kill him. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "Warfare is the Tao of deception. Thus although capable, display incapability to them. When committed to employing your forces, feign inactivity. When [your objective] is nearby, make it appear as if distant; when far away, create the illusion of being nearby." -Sun Tzu, the Art of War. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 09:58:18 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> [NPC] Marley, Habbalite of Saminga Very dark, very evil, very ...... very cool. Ramesh ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 02:23:40 PST From: "Martin Arnold" Subject: IN> my name is mud! Let me defend myself against those who've misunderstood me.. "So, what you're saying is that you want the information when you want it, and you don't want to have to wait for the book to be published or to pay for it." In short; no! I DONT exoect a free ride. What i expect is the people on this list who write the books to tell me if i'm wasting my money on their hard work. The quality of that work is not the issue here either, i might add. Can they be honest and tell me that the tetherbook is going to be worth my while without being coy? Will it cobntradict all the hard work IVE done for MY game if a buy it (ie a waste of money)? "And you complain that the option they're given you to get an advance look at the material, the Pyramid playtest files isn't worth your money. Those of us who pony up our $15 a year disagree." Would it be so wrong to offer up the playtest material to all of us on the list. Isnt that a good measure of loyalty? I dont intend to subscribe to Pyramid because it isnt worth it for me - as i explained. It's not a qyestionf of a free ride - a good playtest is in everyone's best interests, why be so coy about it. "Frankly, the minor tounge-lashing that you received, ... especially in light of some the responsed I know didn't get mailed. There's no call for the level of discourtesy your posts have shown on this topic and although I have greatly enjoyed some of your past postings, I do wish you'ld stop wasting my bandwidth on these silly attacks on SJG and it's employees and associates." (not cut becasue it's all relevant) I welcome all responses; i honestly feel this to be a rel;evant issue; whether 'in game' or not. You feel ihave been discourteous? My last post was not discourtoues and i'm sorry you think so. i have made no personal attacks against those employed by SJG (as i stated before), whom i do think are one of the better game companies out there (which is patrly why this upsets me so). And that is not a glib remark either. I am honoured you have enjoyed some of my opists bnefiore and i hope to continue contributing in the future, but that doesnt change how i feel and if i cant make these comments here then that makes me very sad to be frank. Sorry! "wherever did you get the idea that the purpose of this list is to summarize the contents of any In Nomine books...for individuals who don't have those books?" I assumed this list was for players/fans of IN, period. Nothing more nothing less. I asked a question, that's all. "Or that SJG employees/freelance writers...are obligated to answer every one of your questions...else SJG is being greedy and uncooperative?" No one is obliged to do anything, but that defeats the point of the list. "This list is helpful, and in general, people (including those of us who actually write for IN) are quite willing to answer questions. Your questions WERE ANSWERED!" Yes it is helpful - i wouldnt be here if i thought otherwise! My first question regarding info on London wasnt answered - excpet by a private email. And that person thought it was a bit mean of 'you' to not answer my question. (sorry to drag you into this Mr X!) The second question was not answered; if it was and i missed it then please accept my apologies, but i didnt see it, and, yes i did look! Still the pouint stands. And no i dont want a personal copy of every booj emailed privatley to me for free! "If it's that important for you to know details about canon in upcoming books" You dont think it isnt? "Your pennies do NOT pay our wages, kid" I think you know what i meant, dad! Anyway, my questions were asked politely, my last post was a damn site more polite than you deserve, given the tone of your letter (im looking at you Mr Edelstein!). Yopu wanna talk attitude, fine, but something about stones and glass houses comes to mind. OK, let me sum this up: I originally asked a question about the tetherbook rgarding London, all i wanted to know was whether my game would be ruled out by what was i the book. That doesnt require a free copy of the book beng sent to me privatley does it? i dont think so! I dont feel that i should have to subscribe to get an answer to that either. And i would subscribe if i felt Pyramid was going to be useful to me. If the staff at SJG (ie the writers) are cagey to answer that question then why? If they are busy, hey just say so (most of you are on here regularly)! But when what i feel is important game info is being 'locked away' then i have to wonder why. the force levels query is impoortant to me, i feel, but that's just me - fine! but if the writer's just DONT answer (and they didnt give me the info), or at l;eats sya we dont know or whatever, again why? If the only answer i do get is 'plug, plug..' then, to be honest, that seems a little cheap. It doesnt even say whether the info is in the book or not. an answer like that would be something, but i didnt even get that. Sorry to those ive enjoyed speaking with so far (Pee kitty - a fair coimment, perhaps i should wait until the book is out!), if they feel upset, ive made it clear this wanst anything personal. But this is something i feel had to be said. I guess that'll be my epitaph! And, David, maybe that makes me a whiny 'snot' or a 'kid' who cant get his way; well too bad! (no christmas kiss for you!) Jo - Marley, Scrooge's (reggae singing, 'erb loving) partner? ;-) Marnie ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 12:04:54 -0000 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: IN> my name is mud! >Can they be honest and tell me that the tetherbook is >going to be worth my while without being coy? Thing is, would you consider it to be not worth your while if there was some minor detail which contradicted your campaign? Two minor details? Three? I dunno. But you can't take out insurance against that happening -- the only alternative is if writers consult people's personal campaign guides before committing themselves to anything. Martin, if your version of London was made canon, I'd be the one complaining, because it absolutely contradicts my version in some places! C'est la vie ;-) In the case of the tether book, having read the playtest (ie. it may have changed since then) I'd say it probably is worth coughing up for if you're planning on having seneschal PCs, a heavily tether-based game, or really want some detailed mechanics for tether creation/ destruction/ use and some ideas for what sort of tethers each superior might have. (When I say 'running a very tether based game', I don't mean you should just take the book lock, stock and barrel, but rather that it's definitely worth plumbing for useful ideas. This is why even if a book contradicts what you've done for your game, it can still be worth buying for ideas alone.). But you can probably manage without it, sure. You can definitely manage without the scenarios at the back which were not especially inspired (IMO). Happy Xmas, Yule, Ramadan, Chanukah[2], etc. jo ps. Spot on with Dickens[1]! :) Colour me impressed pps. In general I agree with Kevin about attributes over 9, but with an Impudite you just have to give it higher willpower if you want it to have even a remote chance of success with its resonance. [1] It's the first line in 'A Christmas Carol' (http://www.atlasconsulting. com/xmas/front.htm) -- 'Marley was dead' [2] Belated :) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 07:25:43 -0600 From: Shadowstar Subject: IN> Liber Canticorum (No Spoilers) Having just aquired this little gem, I'm in the slow process of reading it. So far, I like what I see. It captures the charm that intrigued many of us with the Main Book. Kudos to all those hard little Imps who put this together. Having looked over the original Pyramid Playtest files ([1] $15 a year is nothing compared to the warm fuzzy feeling you get for helping out Steve's Starving Kids *grin*), it's nice to finally have a dead tree copy to inflict upon my unsuspecting players... *very evil grin* Keep up the good work gang! Oh, and Bah Humbug!! *grin* [1] - - Tafka J. = shadowstar@centuryinter.net # Balseraph Marquis of Fate, Demon of Delusions of Granduer ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 08:27:30 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Faith > It's been mentioned many times that demonic resonances are usually so > powerful that a mortal has no real way to resist short of a Divine > Intervention. I may have a solution to that. > > A hybrid stat like Charisma or Toughness, Faith is bought like a skill, > but its only purpose is to add to the Will of its possessor when > attempting to resist infernal attunements, songs or resonance. This > 'spiritual toughness' costs 4 points per level and can only be bought by > humans. At GM discretion, Faith adds may be applied to Perception to see > Celestial forms. > > At GM whim, this stat might be bought by soldiers of Hell. > > > Discuss. I think this is a _fantastic_ idea to balance out the game. It fixes dozens and dozens of problems. Here's your cookie, Casca, you win. Here's my assumption: On resisting Will roll checks for humans it would be a Will + Faith skill, where most humans have 0-1 Faith but it's damn hard to possess the Pope with a Shedite. Keen beans. - - Em Current Quote: Demiurge | Dominic confiscates FF8. Rumours that Dominic has recently been seen in black cheongsam and with a big sword doing fancy maneuvers are treason. Report all rumours. Daimon offers to be the keeper of Dominic's Playstation. Maxwell says "You will need a Triad to watch your Playstation, sir." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 08:43:04 -0500 From: neel@cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Subject: Re: IN> [NPC] Marley, Habbalite of Saminga "Hart, Joanna" wrote: > >In the dank basement room, a figure sits in a rotting armchair. Her >fingers are luminous in the moonlight. The bullets feel cold between >her lips as she kisses each one tenderly and slots them into their >chambers. All that remains is for God to indicate which souls He is >ready to receive. Jo, have I mentioned that you rule? This was GREAT. :) - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@cswv.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 07:14:26 -0800 (PST) From: Robert Knop Subject: Re: IN> [NPC] Marley, Habbalite of Saminga On Wed, 23 Dec 1998, Hart, Joanna wrote: > ps. The name is a seasonal joke. Extra brownie points if you can identify > it! Makes sense because Habbalites are the sort to wear chains... :) - -Rob ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 10:19:52 -0500 From: Andrew Frades Subject: Re: IN> Faith Casca wrote: > Now, let's take a look at the sample Demons listed in the core book and > and use only those listed as starting characters. Adam, Will 9. Marcus, > Will 12. Sabrina, Will 12. Notice a trend forming? Let's not even mention > the fact that each of those characters has up to 9 points of Essence to blow > to boost their Resonance, whereas the sample human can only hold up to > five, must blow it -all at once-, and, on average, has only 1d-4 on average. > > In short, the average Demon will steamroll the average human -every single > time.- I have no problem with this at all. Demons walk all over single mortal soldiers no matter how pious? No problem. The game is about Angels and Demons, and many of the Demonic resonances are seriously hindered with or without gross expenditures of essence. Remember many of the resisance rolls are not modified, they are straight rolls and if successful the resonance does not work. Good luck. Peace, Andrew ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 10:43:09 EST From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> [NPC] Marley, Habbalite of Saminga In a message dated 12/23/98 12:56:43 AM, Joanna.Hart@nectech.co.uk writes: >ps. The name is a seasonal joke. Extra brownie points if you can identify >it! > "Marley was dead. To begin with, there must be no doubt whatsoever about that." Although my Rastafarian instincts were twitching violently until I saw the post script. Mark (Cool character, wrong name...) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 11:08:13 EST From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Malakim in their place (now Uriel's Crusade) In a message dated 12/22/98 6:07:30 PM, ramesh.sat@telinco.co.uk writes: >Possibly a good tactic in a war, but morally it's equivalent to punishing >someone for a crime they might commit in the future. > >Ramesh > "… But in that he was ambitious, I slew him." Brutus, _Julius_Caeser_ Act I, scene vi It happened all the time, especially in the pre-modern world. Caius Julius Caesar was killed because he wanted to be made King of the Romans. The medieval mindset saw no problem with killing heretics immediately after they recanted their heresy *to prevent them from backsliding.* In the period that the Purity Crusade occurred (taking either of the currently proposed dates), punishing someone to prevent them from committing a crime was the moral equivalent of tying your shoelaces to prevent you from tripping, *especially* in the area of morality/purity. Mark (Just a friendly reminder that your disapproval means nothing to your ancestors...) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 11:48:45 -0500 (EST) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> Faith On Wed, 23 Dec 1998, Kevin Walsh wrote: > > Now, let's take a look at the sample Demons listed in the core book and > > and use only those listed as starting characters. Adam, Will 9. Marcus, > > Will 12. Sabrina, Will 12. Notice a trend forming? > Yes. Shoddily designed characters. (Yes, I think a characteristic over 9 > in a 9-Force angel/demon is a sign of shoddy design.) I won't go into how > poorly the skills listed matched their portrayal. Be that as it may, I know plenty of players who would make use of such a distribution, so the problem -does- exist. > > In short, the average Demon will steamroll the average human -every single > > time.- > > > I'm not entirely sure that's the case, given that I assume the average > 9-Force demon has a somewhat lower Will than that. And most demons have > only 7 Forces. And the demon mightn't have/want to spend Essence for > whatever reason. It's largely true, however. Aside from the throwaway impudites fron the GM pack, I have yet to see any 7-Force demon on Earth duty. In fact, I seen to recall reading in the IPG that they don't get a Heart until they're at 9 Forces unless the circumstances are truly extraordinary. > > Toss some of those 36 cp into Faith, and Will for resisting demonic > > resonance goes from 4-8 to 5-9 or even 6-10. This gives generic, > > clean-living humans a -fighting chance-. Sure, Will costs the same, but > > Will costs 3 points to increase. Faith costs 4. I have no particular Right. I found this -after- I wrote the post (The information was tucked away in the bottom righthand corner of p202, with no pointers to it in the index. Love that organization.) Still, I feel the argument stands: at character creation, once the Forces are allocated the attributes can't be increased without xp (Or can they? If so, I've been mistaken for quite some time), but some points invested in Faith help Joe Holy resist infernal corruption without making him break the average human mold. > problem with this, though I'm not sure it's the right cost for it. The > other problem is that normal humans get a mere 20 character points, which > is something I'm not impressed by. They probably should get nearer to > 36cp. First time I've heard this, though I'm not surprised, given the afrementioned level of disorganization. *Rummages through books* Oh, right, it's here on p 35, where they say that cp=Forces*4. > > since when do normal humans get xp? > > > I always assumed normal humans get xp, on the grounds that they're just as > alive as PCs. Granted, they probably aren't suffering the same levels of > danger, but skills don't stay static over a lifetime. Granted, they do improve, but I'd figure on the rate of 1 cp every two weeks or so. There's a reason why heroes (PCs) are better at things than normal folk. - -- Casca, Seraph of Archives (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 11:51:43 -0500 (EST) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> Faith On Wed, 23 Dec 1998, Emily Dresner wrote: > I think this is a _fantastic_ idea to balance out the game. It > fixes dozens and dozens of problems. Here's your cookie, Casca, you win. Ooh! Ooh! What do I win? > Here's my assumption: On resisting Will roll checks for humans it > would be a Will + Faith skill, where most humans have 0-1 Faith but it's > damn hard to possess the Pope with a Shedite. Keen beans. The only thing I'm a bit fuzzy on is how many levels should be purchasable. I've put forth the suggestion of 1 level per 2 Forces, but I'm not entirely happy with it. But I don't want it increasable to level 6, like a skill, at least without a damn good reason. Any suggestions? - -- Casca, Seraph of Archives (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 12:00:59 -0500 (EST) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> Faith On Wed, 23 Dec 1998, Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: > >In short, the average Demon will steamroll the average human -every single > >time.- > > I agree and I think that any attempt to even the balance a little for the > humans is a good idea. *blinks* Then why are you arguing with me? > Sure. But what I was saying was that someone having a strong faith could > be represented by having a strong will - I see IN as a storyteller kinda > system (the rules don't matter that much the story is what's important) you > don't need exact rules you could easily make this kind of fudge. And it > gives secular people with resolve in their belief - not faith - a chance to > do the same. You could do that, yes. I'm not disputing that. What I am saying is that sometimes, a GM might want an otherwise completely average NPC to be better able to resist infernal influence without messing with said NPC's Forces or giving him xp for some spurious reason. -In that instance-, and GM could then use some of the NPC's character points to buy Faith, thus boosting said NPC's resistance to demons but still keeping him within already established 'normal human' bounds. Or it could give a beginning Soldier PC a much-needed defensive edge. > If you see me as some kind of troublemaker I'm really sorry, that was not > my intention at all. No, I don't see you as a troublemaker. It just seems like you beat these discussions to death. - -- Casca, Seraph of Archives (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 17:09:28 +0000 () From: "David.Evans" Subject: Re: IN> Faith Casca sic scrpisit: > > The only thing I'm a bit fuzzy on is how many levels should be purchasable. > I've put forth the suggestion of 1 level per 2 Forces, but I'm not > entirely happy with it. But I don't want it increasable to level 6, like > a skill, at least without a damn good reason. Any suggestions? Eeerrrrmmm... how about one level purchasable per *three* Forces, but adding _two_ to any relevant Will roll for eack level posessed. Howzat? Be seeing you... David. PS:- Merry Chrimbulations everybody! :-) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 12:54:07 -0500 From: Nana Yaw Ofori Subject: Re: IN> Celestial Interventions At 1:37 PM -0400 12/21/98, gantr@NKU.EDU wrote: >On a related note, I have a question about interventions. What happens to >an Outcast angel who rolls a divine intervention? Is it beneficial or >dangerous? Personally, what I go with is that the effects of a 111 always serve the side of Heaven, and the effects of a 666 always serve the side of Hell, where applicable. The aims of most Angels typically do coincide with those of Heaven, and Demons with Hell, so, for the most part this works almost exactly the same way it does in Canon In Nomine. Where it mostly comes into play is when two Angels or two Demons are in contest, or with humans, Ethereals, outcasts and renegades. So I'd have to say whether or not a Divine intervention is beneficial to an Outcast depends heavily on what the Outcast had been doing when the Intervention occurred. ===== ><{{"> =================================================== <"}}>< ====== Nana-Yaw "The Fish" Ofori, Freelance Soldier of Heck, presenty serving nofori@pop3.utoledo.edu | Homepage: http://members.tripod.com/~maltesh maltesh@usa.net | In Nomine: http://members.tripod.com/~maltesh/T317 ===== ><{{"> ============ "Life's a Fish, then you Fry." ======= <"}}>< ====== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 13:32:42 -0600 From: Uncle Wolf Subject: Re: IN> Faith Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: [snip] > > Look, I wasn't trying to ruin your idea, I was simply saying that the same > thing could already be done within the existing rules without bringing new > ones in. And when the humans do increase their Will their resistance rolls > will be limited to a reasonably number Personally, I like this idea. Having Faith as an ability that is bought like a skill, helps to get around the Forces-distribution related limits on Will. And since Faith has no other use, than to allow a Heaven-aligned human to resist Demonic Willpower-based resonances, and does nothing against Perception-based resonances, makes it a special-case limited -scope tool, that isn't going to come back and bite the GM in the butt [sorry about the mental image that generated *g*]. I _personally_ think I would also allow it as a modifier for summoning _some_ Superiours [GM's discretion which Superiours this will affect], maybe limiting it to a +1 if the [human] summoner possesses any levels of Faith, with no variations for high or low levels of Faith. It's all or nothing: does the human have Faith? then they get the +1; if they don't, then they don't get the mod. My two cents, tom timberlake, Cadre Cherub of Heaven ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 19:37:08 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> Malakim in their place (now Uriel's Crusade) Mark wrote on 23 December 1998 > >In a message dated 12/22/98 6:07:30 PM, ramesh.sat@telinco.co.uk writes: > >>Possibly a good tactic in a war, but morally it's equivalent to punishing >>someone for a crime they might commit in the future. >> >>Ramesh >> >"… But in that he was ambitious, I slew him." Brutus, _Julius_Caeser_ Act I, >scene vi >It happened all the time, especially in the pre-modern world. Caius Julius >Caesar was killed because he wanted to be made King of the Romans. The >medieval mindset saw no problem with killing heretics immediately after they >recanted their heresy *to prevent them from backsliding.* > >In the period that the Purity Crusade occurred (taking either of the currently >proposed dates), punishing someone to prevent them from committing a crime was >the moral equivalent of tying your shoelaces to prevent you from tripping, >*especially* in the area of morality/purity. > I suppose I can't entirely judge someone my todays moral standards - but that's getting back on to Moral relativity.... :-) Ramesh ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 19:24:30 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> Faith Casca wrote on 23 December 1998 >On Wed, 23 Dec 1998, Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: > >> >In short, the average Demon will steamroll the average human -every single >> >time.- >> >> I agree and I think that any attempt to even the balance a little for the >> humans is a good idea. > >*blinks* Then why are you arguing with me? I was not arguing, I was questioning. It is in my nature to question, to learn, to gain a greater understanding of concepts but not to piss people off despite how it might appear. >> Sure. But what I was saying was that someone having a strong faith could >> be represented by having a strong will - I see IN as a storyteller kinda >> system (the rules don't matter that much the story is what's important) you >> don't need exact rules you could easily make this kind of fudge. And it >> gives secular people with resolve in their belief - not faith - a chance to >> do the same. > >You could do that, yes. I'm not disputing that. What I am saying is that >sometimes, a GM might want an otherwise completely average NPC to be >better able to resist infernal influence without messing with said NPC's >Forces or giving him xp for some spurious reason. -In that instance-, and >GM could then use some of the NPC's character points to buy Faith, thus >boosting said NPC's resistance to demons but still keeping him within >already established 'normal human' bounds. Or it could give a beginning >Soldier PC a much-needed defensive edge. Fine. >> If you see me as some kind of troublemaker I'm really sorry, that was not >> my intention at all. > >No, I don't see you as a troublemaker. It just seems like you beat these >discussions to death. I'm sorry it seems that way. Ramesh, (slightly dissonant) Elohite of Flowers :-) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 16:19:36 -0500 (EST) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> Faith On Wed, 23 Dec 1998, Uncle Wolf wrote: > generated *g*]. I _personally_ think I would also allow it as a modifier for > summoning _some_ Superiours [GM's discretion which Superiours this will > affect], maybe limiting it to a +1 if the [human] summoner possesses any > levels of Faith, with no variations for high or low levels of Faith. It's all > or nothing: does the human have Faith? then they get the +1; if they don't, > then they don't get the mod. I was under the impression that humans, even Soldiers, couldn't summon Superiors. I even checked through Night Music. - -- Casca, Seraph of Archives (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 13:07:36 +0000 From: "Leath Sheales" <938269@wrpc.riv.csu.edu.au> Subject: Re: IN> Faith Casca wrote: > Ooh! Ooh! What do I win? The cookie! Duh! :) > The only thing I'm a bit fuzzy on is how many levels should be purchasable. > I've put forth the suggestion of 1 level per 2 Forces, but I'm not > entirely happy with it. But I don't want it increasable to level 6, like > a skill, at least without a damn good reason. Any suggestions? GM decision is final, but here's some ideas that popped into my head. Ordinary mortals can have up to 1 level (those people have a bit of faith in something). The very rare normal mortal could have 2 (possibly). After that, let them increase their Faith each time they have something happen to them that encourages MORE faith than previously. eg. Human has faith in God. Start with 1 level. Human meets an angel who proves it to them (possibly a Mercurian), they can increase to level 2 if they have the cps. Then they team up with the angel and fight some very nasty (obvious) demons. Human can increase to level 3 (since the demons were obviously not nice, and they have to have faith that God will help). Then human is in angel's presence when their Archangel is summoned. Human is stunned, but this increase in Heaven's power and existence allows them to buy level 4. Whilst tracking down the next bunch of evil demons, the human rolls 111 and the hand of God (obviously) reaches down and smites the demons. Human is filled with faith and can buy level 5. To get to level 6, they may have to meet God. Anyway, it's not perfect but serves as an example. Substitute Lucifer/Ethereal god/Whatever in place of God for whatever they have faith in. Leath. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 05:47:55 -0000 From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Faith Anyway, it's not perfect but serves as an example. Substitute Lucifer/Ethereal god/Whatever in place of God for whatever they have faith in. Nah, this isn't WoD. I don't think you should get any bennies for believing in ethereals. If it's _faith_ then it should be a gift from God. Thus only available to people who subscribe to appropriate religions. Otherwise it really is just pig-headedness and can be simulated as willpower. OK, so it's unfair. Life is like that. jo ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 23:55:35 -0600 From: "James Bearse" Subject: Re: IN> Faith A thought... Wouldn't it be in keeping with the demonic tradition to have faith be something that can be taken away? If faith was capable of being quite strong, and reducing a demon's chance of affecting a target to practically nil, then he would have to find a way to destroy or undermine that faith. Once he doubted or weakened, he would lose the bonus. This might be harder from a game mechanic standpoint, but interesting for role-playing - especially for you infernal types. Savage Wombat ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 06:09:42 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: IN> Resources The talk of soliders under Faith reminded me: Resources above 6? Who, When, How & if 6 isn't the limit what is? It is suggested both in the original book and in NM (p31 when talking about mortals regerating Essence when they succeed in a roll in which they have a skill of "6 or better") that Mortals can. I thought this was confirmed by Taylor Brooks (NM p55) has Computer Operation/7, but the errata changed that so it could be that humans can have skills of 7+ but not at character creation, or it could just be a case of bad character creation a kid whose only not computer based skills are Lying and Fast-talk, how's he going to get through schools :-). Ramesh ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 01:38:49 EST From: BillionSix@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Faith In a message dated 12/23/98 11:57:01 PM Central Standard Time, jhart@btinternet.com writes: > > Anyway, it's not perfect but serves as an example. Substitute > Lucifer/Ethereal god/Whatever in place of God for whatever they have > faith in. > > > Nah, this isn't WoD. I don't think you should get any bennies for believing > in ethereals. If it's _faith_ then it should be a gift from God. Thus only > available to people who subscribe to appropriate religions. Otherwise it > really is just pig-headedness and can be simulated as willpower. > > OK, so it's unfair. Life is like that. > I disagree. Faith is not a gift from God. It's almost the other way around. If a human has Faith and gets bennies from it, it is not because it's a gift from God. The bennies come from within, otherwise it's not Faith. It might as well just be a new kind of attunement. The downside is that you can have Faith in anything. God, most likely, but also an ethereal, Lucifer, or David Koresh. Brian ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 06:59:27 -0000 From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Faith - -----Original Message----- From: BillionSix@aol.com To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Date: 24 December 1998 06:54 Subject: Re: IN> Faith >The bennies come from within, otherwise it's not Faith. It might as well >just be a new kind of attunement. If it comes from within then I'd say it was willpower. jo ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 07:11:43 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> Faith Jo Hart wrote on 24 December 1998 > > >Anyway, it's not perfect but serves as an example. Substitute >Lucifer/Ethereal god/Whatever in place of God for whatever they have >faith in. > > >Nah, this isn't WoD. I don't think you should get any bennies for believing >in ethereals. If it's _faith_ then it should be a gift from God. Thus only >available to people who subscribe to appropriate religions. Otherwise it >really is just pig-headedness and can be simulated as willpower. > >OK, so it's unfair. Life is like that. > So what happened, to Soldiers of Hell possessing it or people who don't believe in God but have strong moral convictions possessing it? One thing I was thinking, maybe it should be cheaper to purchase than Will because increasing Will increases the chance of succeeding in skills based on Will, but if I'm understanding the concept right faith doesn't (although I suppose it could help with Fast-Talk because if you **really** believe in something you are more convincing). BTW are there any persuasion type skills which actually relates to a persons ability to persuade someone of an idea in the long term, since Fast talk described as getting someone to " "bend the rules just this once" " (I quoting something which is already is quote marks), or would that kind of thing come entirely down to roleplaying. Ramesh ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1068 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.