From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Fri Feb 6 21:44:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA30442 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 21:44:48 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id VAA18960 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 21:46:47 -0600 Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 21:46:47 -0600 Message-Id: <199802070346.VAA18960@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #613 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Friday, February 6 1998 Volume 01 : Number 613 In this digest: Re: IN> Where should I send submissions to the INC webpages? Re: IN> Grigori, Fallen? Re: IN> Re: IN- Grigori, Fallen? Re: IN> Kyrio going Celestial Re: IN> IN Movie casting... Re: IN> Supplement wants IN> Lilim and Reproduction (was Re: Canon Doubt And Uncertainty) Re: IN> Lilim and Reproduction (was Re: Canon Doubt And Uncertainty) Re: IN> Lilim and Reproduction (was Re: Canon Doubt And Uncertainty) Re: IN> Lilim and Reproduction Re: IN> Lilim and Reproduction Re: IN> Kyrio going Celestial Re: IN> Reproduction and Heaven and Hell Re: IN> Supplement wants Re: IN> Lilim and Reproduction IN> [B5] Morden ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 20:21:35 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Where should I send submissions to the INC webpages? At 12:38 AM -0500 2/5/98, Casca wrote: >On Wed, 4 Feb 1998, Nathaniel Eliot wrote: > >> Send it to Casca , who is responsable for >> continuity tracking, > >My Celestial name translates to "Nagging Beth until changes are made." >;;;) Yup. >> it. You can send stuff to Beth directly at , >> but she's less likely to get it up quickly if it isn't in HTML >> already... > >HTMLing isn't a guarantee of speedy up-getting. There was a huge batch of >stuff I sent to her, via you, at Christmas that she has yet to up-get. Thought I'd finally gotten back to those! Of course, those were sent around a holiday -- when I went down to Texas (2000 miles from NH), stayed with family, came back here, started to recover from that stress, went to Arisia (SF Con) and was on panels, and got sick. Like I had energy to upload things?? - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 20:23:41 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Grigori, Fallen? At 9:21 PM -0500 2/4/98, Stacy Stroud wrote: >Earl Wajenberg asks: > >> Which brings up another, contrary absolute -- if it's implausible that >> Malakim NEVER fall, isn't it equally implausible that ALL Grigori >> fell? Weren't there even a FEW holdouts?... (And why isn't there >> a Band of demons consisting of the Fallen Grigori? If the IN book >> gave a reason, I don't recall it.) > >Are the Grigori Fallen? > >I thought they were all Outcast. Exactly. They're not all Fallen. They *are* Outcast, as a Choir. >Some Grigori are presumably Fallen by now, but since Heaven doesn't even >admit to their continued existence, there's no public info on that Band. That's about right. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 20:28:55 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Grigori, Fallen? At 8:26 PM -0800 2/4/98, David Streeter wrote: >Stacy Stroud intoned sonorously... >What happens to a corporeally slain angel who does not have a heart? I'd >guess that is what happens to them. They land in Limbo. Same with Heartless demons. Except Kyrios and Shedim -- if they can't generate vessels via an attunement, then they either get torn up, or they go to Limbo and never get out again. GM's choice. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 20:34:55 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Kyrio going Celestial At 8:23 AM -0600 2/5/98, Grim88 wrote: >Just a quick questions that a friend of mine and I had difficulty finding >the answer to. > >If a Kyrio goes Celestial without giving up all his hosts, does it cost >Essence? We were thinking it cost 2 Essence to do so, but then couldnt' find >the answer in the books. I'd say yes -- same as normally going celestial. Note tht on p. 103, the 3rd paragraph refers you back to p. 53, where it explains about going celestial. Shedim may be able to dispense with the Will roll (as might a Kyrio who gave up *all* hosts); I think that's implied strongly by the 7th paragraph in the second column on p. 152. - --Beth, Demon Princess of Nitpicking http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/articles/INChar/Demons/Prince.Beth.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 20:36:40 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> IN Movie casting... At 3:17 PM -0800 2/5/98, Querent wrote: >---Bruce Dykes wrote: >> I've sent Beth a prototype casting page for the INC...would those of you >> who've come up with casting ideas for Superiors in the IN movie, please be >> so kind as to send them to me personally for inclusion on the page prior to >> posting??? >Actually, I'd prefer if you didn't. I originally put my cast list out >to get feedback while constructing a web site. The site's still under >construction, but it should be up by next week. > >Anyway, if I submit my cast list ideas on a different website, I would >get traffic on mine for what reason? You'd get a reference from mine as soon as I managed to get energy and rememberance at the same time. Or I'd send you all of the stuff I got and then just link to yours and not ever have to update it myself. - --Beth, Archangel of Archives http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/articles/INChar/Angels/Arcangel.Beth.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 03:34:15 +0000 (GMT) From: Steve Jessop Subject: Re: IN> Supplement wants On Wed, 4 Feb 1998, Julian Breen wrote: > how about a Random Scenario or Subplot Generator? The bigger the better. Please, no. Capsule plot ideas: yes by all means, but don't waste space on a means of selecting them at random. And don't associate IN with the bad old days, when you could roll up a dungeon and run through it without anyone having to _think_ at any point. I also pity the poor schmoe who has to think of 216 plots that can happen at any time, in any campaign. OK, so 'don't like it, don't use it' applies here easily, but IMO and I suspect many others, players can spot a random event, or even worse a random NPC, a mile off. The result is loss of interest, and a patchwork campaign. Mind you, my players are currently so paranoid about grand designs, that when a guy turned up in town claiming to be a demon hunter, but without a specific angel to serve, they immediately assumed he was a Bal of Asmodeus using Humanity. Am I overdoing it? Steve. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 02:21:19 -0500 From: "Ehrbar" Subject: IN> Lilim and Reproduction (was Re: Canon Doubt And Uncertainty) >>Well, I know this might be contradicting something planned for the >>IPG, but if the APG commentary on crossbreeds (ie, "The newborn is >>automatically an angel because he hasn't had a chance to Fall yet.") > >Little ethereal gods, is *that* still there? Oh, crossbreeds. >Hm. I forget exactly what was decided on, but I *think* the newborn's >nature depended on who did the sticky-Forces stuff. Either that, >or it's the "pure Forces" that determine? Whatever. I can live >with that one. The APG is fairly clear that any angel-demon crossbreed starts as an angel no matter what Superior presided, but that most choose to align themselves with Hell and Fall rather quickly. >>is also true for demon-demon children, > >IT IS NOT! () (Someone proposed that it be, and >SJ and I said *NOT*! Demon Princes cannot create angels, no, no, no, >not, it doesn't happen, they can't, that's too funky, no.) Hmmm. Okay, what happens if you have a Bright Lilim and a demon crossbreed? Do you get a demon, because neither parent is a "real" angel? Or do you get an angel, because one parent is aligned with Heaven? And what happens when both parents are Lilim? Does it just not work? Do the laws of metaphysics twist and create a random Band of demon? Does the Superior involved get to choose the nature of the child? Do you just get a high-force imp? And what if one or both of the Lilim are Bright? Now, if I were writing the IPG (and there was enough space in the book to go into detail), I'd answer that a Bright Lil-demon crossbreed is born a demon; that two parent Lilim create a big Imp; and that two Bright Lilim produce a big Reliever. Steve, Calabite of Paperback Books, Baron of Satanic Dishes ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 07:35:33 +0000 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: IN> Lilim and Reproduction (was Re: Canon Doubt And Uncertainty) >> >>IT IS NOT! () (Someone proposed that it be, and >>SJ and I said *NOT*! Demon Princes cannot create angels, no, no, no, >>not, it doesn't happen, they can't, that's too funky, no.) Awwww. (Mental image of calabite parent with over-developed maternal instinct trying to sneak up to Notre Dame with a struggling baby ofanite (in celestial form) under its coat and leaving it at the church door. Then trying to sneak away again .. 'No baby, I said stay there! Just /stay/. Don't go anywhere....') jo - ---------- "I like getting into hot water, it keeps me clean." G. K. Chesterton jhart@btinternet.com -- http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~jhart/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 08:11:21 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Lilim and Reproduction (was Re: Canon Doubt And Uncertainty) These are just my guesses. You'll have to ask the All Powerful Authority of Lilim (tm) for better answers. :) (And I assume this person is Beth.) > Hmmm. Okay, what happens if you have a Bright Lilim and a demon > crossbreed? Do you get a demon, because neither parent is a "real" > angel? Or do you get an angel, because one parent is aligned with > Heaven? I would assume that your Bright Lilim shouldn't be doing this in the first place. :) IMO, you would get a demon who was the same Band as the demon parent, since Lilim cannot produce Lilim, regardless if they are Bright or not. > And what happens when both parents are Lilim? Does it just not work? > Do the laws of metaphysics twist and create a random Band of demon? > Does the Superior involved get to choose the nature of the child? Do > you just get a high-force imp? And what if one or both of the Lilim > are Bright? Nothing. If both parents are Lilim, they have alot of good naked sweaty fun, but nothing comes of it. Only Lilith can create Lilim, Lilim themselves do not continue to spawn. If Lilim could produce Lilim, then Lilith would not have the only gig in town on them. Any Prince who got his hands on a Sister and conned her into Binding to him could set her up as a little Lilim factory. No dice, they don't reproduce by themselves. - - Em. Balseraphin' is Fun! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 14:02:17 -0000 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: Re: IN> Lilim and Reproduction > > And what happens when both parents are Lilim? Does it just not work? Could be that when two lilim share forces the result is another lilim, but Lilith is the only superior who understands her creations well enough to fit those forces together (and of course, it'll cost everyone invoved including the new demon). > > Do the laws of metaphysics twist and create a random Band of demon? That could be... very funny ;-) ('Congratulations, its a shedite!') Actually I thought of something twinkier. Could a demon prince capture a Malakite and use it as breeding stock? That'd be the easiest way to force one to fall. jo ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 10:46:11 -0500 From: Jesse Subject: Re: IN> Lilim and Reproduction > And what happens when both parents are Lilim? Does it just not work? No. They give birth to full-sized Malakim with the angry and muderous discords. "We gave birth to you, you owe us." "Kill, kill kill!" And that is why Lilim aren't usally parents... - -Jesse, sometime Soul of Tongue-Planted-So-Far-in-Cheek-I-Have-a-Second-Set-of-Lips "Those who understand history are condemned to watch other idiots repeat it." Peter Lamborn Wilson ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Feb 98 12:14 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Kyrio going Celestial [Beth, replying to Grim88:] >>If a Kyrio goes Celestial without giving up all his hosts, does it cost >>Essence? We were thinking it cost 2 Essence to do so, but then couldnt' find >>the answer in the books. > >I'd say yes -- same as normally going celestial. Note tht on p. 103, >the 3rd paragraph refers you back to p. 53, where it explains about >going celestial. > >Shedim may be able to dispense with the Will roll (as might a Kyrio >who gave up *all* hosts); I think that's implied strongly by >the 7th paragraph in the second column on p. 152. Note that both the Kyrio FAQ (I think) and the APG touch more on this trick. In particular, creating a celestial form causes the *full* disturbance for the Kyrio's Forces. So it's pretty much identical to a regular celestial dropping a vessel. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 11:18:35 -0700 From: Brenda L Santer Subject: Re: IN> Reproduction and Heaven and Hell All of this disccusion about angelic/demonic reproduction reminded me of something I don't quite understand, and would appreciate help with. I should preface my question with a couple of comments. First, I am relatively new to the list. I have enjoyed about two weeks of lurking and find the discussions useful and interesting as well. All of the religious studies classes I took at university have paid off i helping me to understand some of the rather weighty but interesting trends. Second, I am very new to In Nomine. No one I know plays it (yet). I intend to either take part in, or start running a campaign as soon as I can. So, I have purchased and read the main IN book, the Angelic Players' Guide and "Heaven and Hell", but there is a lot to assimilate. Here's the question that the angelic/demonic reproduction posts reminded me of: In the beginning of Heaven and Hell, there are the scenes where first and angel and then a demon are judger for their part in mating and the conception of a "child". When the demon is judged, the judgement includes having his forces separated and added to th forces of the offspring, then the binding of the result into a corporeal body. Then Asmodeus says that eventually the Host will come looking for him. If the forces are separated and added to those of the offspring, does that not mean the demon ceases to exist? So if the Host come looking for him, they would not be able to find him? Thanks for the help. **************************************** Brenda Santer: mailto:bsanter@sk.sympatico.ca **************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 20:07:40 +0000 From: Julian Breen Subject: Re: IN> Supplement wants >The FAQ does say that Seraphim of Yves need a roll for any information >beyond name. > You're right, but as I read it the FAQ was in reply to whether or not the seraph can tell if the person 'is' a demon. Which is not *technically* what I was asking :) >My own personal take as a GM would be to give the Seraph both names for >a Shedite, since both entities are "resident". With a Kyrio, or someone >using the Song of Possession, I'd give only the possessor's name (since >the host entity is "out of town"...). In the latter case, a roll with a >decent CD would get both possessor and host names. Yep. In fact, thinking a bit more about it I suppose that it is fairly dependent upon how good a job the celestial is doing of 'impersonating' the host. If the possessor is imitating the host with any degree of skill, then he might be quite hard to detect (a high CD). Shedites, in contrast, are probably fairly easy to pick up as they're generally very, *very*, naughty. - -- Jules - Naughty but Nice O}:> jules@bigjules.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 16:02:34 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Lilim and Reproduction At 2:21 AM -0500 2/6/98, Ehrbar wrote: >>>Well, I know this might be contradicting something planned for the >>>IPG, but if the APG commentary on crossbreeds (ie, "The newborn is >>>automatically an angel because he hasn't had a chance to Fall yet.") >> >>Little ethereal gods, is *that* still there? Oh, crossbreeds. >>Hm. I forget exactly what was decided on, but I *think* the newborn's >>nature depended on who did the sticky-Forces stuff. Either that, >>or it's the "pure Forces" that determine? Whatever. I can live >>with that one. > >The APG is fairly clear that any angel-demon crossbreed starts as an >angel no matter what Superior presided, but that most choose to align >themselves with Hell and Fall rather quickly. Yeah. I suppose that the addition of pure Forces can work... I wouldn't let PCs *count* on it, though. (I'm not entirely happy with the reproduction section, myself. It's good, it works, but I had an entirely different model in my head, so I'm probably always going to be a little grumpy about it. ) >>>is also true for demon-demon children, >> >>IT IS NOT! () (Someone proposed that it be, and >>SJ and I said *NOT*! Demon Princes cannot create angels, no, no, no, >>not, it doesn't happen, they can't, that's too funky, no.) > >Hmmm. Okay, what happens if you have a Bright Lilim and a demon >crossbreed? Do you get a demon, because neither parent is a "real" >angel? Frankly, my *personal* take would be that with *any* crossbreeds, the Most Forces rule *or* the demonic taint results in a demon. >Or do you get an angel, because one parent is aligned with >Heaven? But by the APG stuff, I'd have to say get an angel, of the analogous Choir to the demonic parent. (Or a demon of that Band. Or whatever the GM feels like doing. Bright Lilim are so rare, probably nobody knows anyway.) >And what happens when both parents are Lilim? Does it just not work? Basically. >Do the laws of metaphysics twist and create a random Band of demon? I'd say that you could get a demonling -- one of the little 1-2 Force creatures that hasn't even differentiated into an imp or gremlin yet. But you don't get another Lilim. Unless you had Lilith doing the sticking-together -- you can contribute Forces and she can take them and do the Lilim secret ingrediant, and presto. But that's more of a sister-daughter than a child of Lilim. (Celestial family dynamics make my head hurt.) >Does the Superior involved get to choose the nature of the child? Do >you just get a high-force imp? Probably, yes -- either can happen (or a gremlin). It's probably up to the Superior. >And what if one or both of the Lilim are Bright? Reliever, or Choir dependant on the Archangel with the Force-glue (especially if that AA contributed Forces itself). At 8:11 AM -0500 2/6/98, Emily Dresner wrote: >These are just my guesses. You'll have to ask the All Powerful Authority >of Lilim (tm) for better answers. :) (And I assume this person is Beth.) >> Hmmm. Okay, what happens if you have a Bright Lilim and a demon >> crossbreed? Do you get a demon, because neither parent is a "real" >> angel? Or do you get an angel, because one parent is aligned with >> Heaven? > >I would assume that your Bright Lilim shouldn't be doing this in the first >place. :) [...] That too. That very much too. Hanging around and having kids with demons is rather a no-no for any Redeemed... Or other angels, for that matter. It's a good way to get your wings nailed to the floor by a bunch of Judgment Servitors (explaining that it's for your own good) and then being lectured. >If Lilim could produce Lilim, then Lilith would not have the only gig in >town on them. Any Prince who got his hands on a Sister and conned her >into Binding to him could set her up as a little Lilim factory. No dice, >they don't reproduce by themselves. So Lilith has made sure that Lilim are not able to engage in copyright violation on their own. They are write-protected... Or something like that. Yep. Exactly. Maybe not even a Lilim Princess could manage the trick. At 2:02 PM +0000 2/6/98, Hart, Joanna wrote: >Actually I thought of something twinkier. Could a demon prince capture a >Malakite and use it as breeding stock? That'd be the easiest way to force >one to fall. Or at least turn into a puddle of Discord. Hm. I don't know if someone can really be *forced* to *volunteer* Forces, not really. Coerced/bribed/threatened into it, maybe, but if the Forces are just ripped away, then it's Force-stripping, not baby-making. I'd probably, personally, rule that doing that damaged the Forces beyond use for, say, making more captive 3-Force Malakim or whatever. Unless the Superior were veeeeeeeeery careful. ("Be vewy quiet, we'we hunting Mawakim?" Help.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 21:37:57 -0600 (CST) From: Austin George Loomis Subject: IN> [B5] Morden As some of you may already know, Babylon 5 is in reruns on TNT, at an hour when civilians like myself can actually watch it, and so I've been getting caught up on JMS' five-year plan. Within the past couple of weeks, they've been rerunning the episodes where Londo does his deal with Morden, and IMO, the Shadows' agent is a Lilim -- his using a male vessel is just a convenience. The question is, in IN terms, who would his Superior be? Comments, anyone? ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #613 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.