From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Mar 5 12:12:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA15256 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 12:12:26 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id LAA04120 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:20:27 -0600 Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:20:27 -0600 Message-Id: <199803051720.LAA04120@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #659 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, March 5 1998 Volume 01 : Number 659 In this digest: Re: IN> Cats Re: IN> Cats Re: IN> Cats Re: IN> Cats Re: IN> Cats Re: IN> Book Report: Fallen Angels Re: IN> Judaism IN> Souls (was Cats) IN> David (re: Judaism) Re: IN> Cats Re: IN> Judaism Re: IN> Cats Re: IN> Judaism Re: IN> Judaism Re: IN> Cats Re: IN> Judaism Re: IN> Judaism Re: IN> Cats Re: IN> David (re: Judaism) Re: IN> Cats Re: IN> Gluttony, Greed and a malakim of Eli IN> Cats IN> Cats IN> Animal Sapience Re: IN> Cats Fools rush in (was Re: IN> Cats) Re: IN> Souls (was Cats) Re: IN> Animal Sapience Re: IN> Judaism IN> Categories Re: Fools rush in (was Re: IN> Cats) Re: IN> Categories Re: IN> Categories Re: IN> Categories Re: IN> Categories IN> Fascism (was Re: Judaism) Re: IN> David (re: Judaism) Re: IN> New PBeM: "Reversing Entropy" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 16:34:46 -0500 From: "Mark McKenzie" Subject: Re: IN> Cats Kevin Walsh wrote: > Also, traditionally neither cats nor > Seraphim have a good opinion of humanity. > Here's all you need to know about a cat's opinion on humanity: When you enter the room, your cat will weave about your ankles, purring and rubbing against you in an ecstacy of love and joy. Then it will do the exact same thing to the nearest table leg. - -- Mark McKenzie E-mail: markadv@kinekom.com ICQ 7946364 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 16:46:30 -0500 From: Jesse Subject: Re: IN> Cats >First off, the ability to teach an animal tricks has nothing to do with >intelligence. Dogs learn tricks well because they are pack animals, >cats do not because they are not. So does this imply that Lions are good at learning tricks cause they travel in prides, and that cyotes, which are solitary creature for the most part, are hard to teach tricks? - -Jesse ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 16:56:39 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Cats Mark McKenzie wrote: > > When you enter the room, your cat will weave about your ankles, > purring and rubbing against you in an ecstacy of love and joy. > Then it will do the exact same thing to the nearest table leg. Yes, but it doesn't purr when its alone with the table. The rubbing is a gesture both affectionate and possessive, as a hug can be. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 09:41:12 +1100 From: christopher.stevenson@aihw.gov.au (Chris Stevenson) Subject: Re: IN> Cats >>This entire thread is heresay.< > >Inasmuch as we are all just reporting what we have learned elsewhere and >expressing our opinions based on them, I suppose so. I was thinking that until there's a cat sitting in a chair with a talk show host spilling its guts about how it anguishes over killing things, its all heresay. >>I would actually think any scientist who fights against evidence with >reason 'is' being a scientist.< > >Mmm, no. A scientist doesn't "fight against" evidence, he _tests_ it. Perhaps, but does one term exclude the other? Scientists of different persuasions 'fight' tooth and nail to validate their own position and deny others. >> Judgements over the intensity or motivation for that reasoning are highly >subjective.< > >As are most all judgments, but subjective does not mean inaccurate. Perhaps, but subjective usually infers bias. >-David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 09:43:51 +1100 From: christopher.stevenson@aihw.gov.au (Chris Stevenson) Subject: Re: IN> Cats >Hey, I'm *trying* to put it into IN perspective.... What are >Soldiers and servants, if not pets? > >--emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor >GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ Hubris? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 01:04:22 +0000 From: Julian Breen Subject: Re: IN> Book Report: Fallen Angels Bruce wrote: >Browsing through the bargain section of my local Barnes & Noble, I found >this little gem: Fallen Angels, The Soldiers of Satan's Realm, by Bernard >J. Bamberger, ISBN 1-56619-850-X ($7.95). > Hi. I was interested in this and spoke to a couple of large bookstores here about it. Unfortuneately it seems to be unavailable in this country. I tried Amazon as well but to no avail. If anybody here in the UK finds a copy of this book that they don't want themselves, would you mail me? Thanks - -- Jules - Demon of Bookworms (in service to Astaroth) jules@bigjules.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 01:39:23 +0000 (GMT) From: Steve Jessop Subject: Re: IN> Judaism On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Rhodri James wrote: > Now, what word should an (arch)angelic patron of Judaism have? Lots of people suggested Michael, which is cool. I would add that David had a lot of influence over the Israelites: to my my mind Judaism bears a lot more resemblance to Stone than either Islam (Fire) or Christianity (Flowers? :-) It irks me that Fascism has an archanglic patron. I am debating whether I want David IMC to value strength that highly over principles. I prefer him to defend humans against nature and against Hell, rather than 'dang furriners'. Steve. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 01:52:28 +0000 (GMT) From: Steve Jessop Subject: IN> Souls (was Cats) On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > But I don't think souls is the issue. There's no reason to suppose > Gabriel thinks fire has a soul, or Novalis thinks plants have souls, but > they value those things because they are their respective Words. How about this: fire and flowers do have souls: their names are Gabriel and Novalis respectively. Animals have forces of their own, but their souls are rudimentary, since each is a rough copy of one aspect of a Kyrio. As evidence, note that no matter how much a cat acts like a Lilim or a Habbalite, it's forces will not go to Hell when it dies (see extended write-up of Saminga). Humans are special. They each have a soul of their very own, and they can decide which way it will go when they die. That is why the War isn't about animals, or flowers, or fire... Steve. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:02:56 -0700 (MST) From: Jason Corley Subject: IN> David (re: Judaism) On Thu, 5 Mar 1998, Steve Jessop wrote: > > > It irks me that Fascism has an archanglic patron. I am debating whether I > want David IMC to value strength that highly over principles. I prefer him > to defend humans against nature and against Hell, rather than 'dang > furriners'. I agree. The "worst" angel is still "better" for humankind than the "best" demon. It's just a matter of figuring out the quote thingys. Jason the sun shines on the evil the sun shines on the good ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 13:32:12 +1100 From: christopher.stevenson@aihw.gov.au (Chris Stevenson) Subject: Re: IN> Cats Sorry. I had to edit my comments. >>>This entire thread is heresay.< >> >>Inasmuch as we are all just reporting what we have learned elsewhere and >>expressing our opinions based on them, I suppose so. > I was thinking that until there's a cat sitting in a chair with a talk show host spilling its guts about how it anguishes over killing things, it's all heresay. > >>>I would actually think any scientist who fights against evidence with >>reason 'is' being a scientist.< >> >>Mmm, no. A scientist doesn't "fight against" evidence, he _tests_ it. > Perhaps, but does one term exclude the other? Scientists of different persuasions 'fight' tooth and nail to validate their own position and refute others. > >>> Judgements over the intensity or motivation for that reasoning are highly >>subjective.< >> >>As are most all judgments, but subjective does not mean inaccurate. > Perhaps, but subjectivity usually implies bias. > >>-David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 21:34:36 -0500 (EST) From: Pee Kitty Subject: Re: IN> Judaism On Thu, 5 Mar 1998, Steve Jessop wrote: > It irks me that Fascism has an archanglic patron. I am debating whether I > want David IMC to value strength that highly over principles. I prefer him > to defend humans against nature and against Hell, rather than 'dang > furriners'. Fascism? I think you're misreading something. It says that David counts skinheads as his followers, not that he counts fascists or Nazi skinheads! Somehow, I don't see David considering neo-nazis as his allies on earth... I hope you're not of the misguided opinion that ALL skinheads are nazis or fascists... Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! And finally, a special message to \|/ ____ \|/ anyone who thinks I give a damn... ~@-/ oO \-@~ /_( \__/ )_\ \__U_/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 20:33:32 +0000 From: "Patrick Chester" Subject: Re: IN> Cats > Sorry. I had to edit my comments. > > >>>This entire thread is heresay.< > >> > >>Inasmuch as we are all just reporting what we have learned elsewhere and > >>expressing our opinions based on them, I suppose so. > > > I was thinking that until there's a cat sitting in a chair with a talk show > host spilling its guts about how it anguishes over killing things, it's all > heresay. "Well?" "Meow! Meow!" "What does this 'meow! meow!' mean? Summon an animal psychiatrist!" "Meow-meow?" "Meow! Meow!" "Meow-meow?" "Meow! Meow!" "He says he's very sad..." "Oh, go away!" :-) - -- Patrick Chester (aka: claypigeon, Sinapus) wolfone@io.com "Well Jim, that proves it. The Universe not made up of an endless vacuum of eternal nothingness like we once believed. The Universe is in fact made up of Fabio." -Cape Carbunkle bunch at work. :-) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 03:01:37 +0000 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: IN> Judaism At 01:39 05/03/98 +0000, you wrote: > >On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Rhodri James wrote: > >> Now, what word should an (arch)angelic patron of Judaism have? > >Lots of people suggested Michael, which is cool. I would add that David >had a lot of influence over the Israelites: to my my mind Judaism bears a >lot more resemblance to Stone than either Islam (Fire) or Christianity >(Flowers? :-) I would have said Wind ;-) jo - ---------- "I like getting into hot water, it keeps me clean." G. K. Chesterton jhart@btinternet.com -- http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~jhart/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 22:22:27 +0000 From: Nathaniel Eliot Subject: Re: IN> Judaism > It irks me that Fascism has an archanglic patron. Okay, I'd point out that Fascism itself is not an evil idea; it's 'evil' because people associate it with Hitler (which isn't quite right - Fascism was the Italians) and other dictators. > I am debating whether I want David IMC to value strength that > highly over principles. I prefer him to defend humans against > nature and against Hell, rather than 'dang furriners'. Fascism has nothing inherently against foreigners. Fascism comes from fasces (sp?), meaning a bundle of reeeds. You can break a single reed quite easily, but breaking a bundle all at once is very hard. Fascism is the idea that the entire government is controlled by one man; this prevents internal struggles (in theory). The problem is that there is no guarentee that the leader isn't selfish (and how many people with political power do you know that are totally altruistic?). David supports Fascism because of it's 'United We Stand' philosophy, not because of the xenophobia that is often parcelled with it. Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@mci2000.com "It's the eternal question, really; to be a slave in Heaven, or a star in Hell. But sometimes Hell doesn't look like Hell. On a good day, it can look like LA." - Playing God ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 03:25:45 +0000 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: IN> Cats At 13:31 04/03/98 -0500, you wrote: > >How do celestials think of humans? Smart pets? Hardwired in so much? >They share a certain amount of language, so they don't have that >barrier to deal with. But do they think human babblings are as >restrictive as a gorilla's sign language? Given that the average human has an intelligence of about 3, which is half as intelligent as the average celestial, I think its fair to say that the difference in brightness is a lot smaller than between humans and animals. Its probably closer to the difference between a bright adult and a bright 10-year-old (although I'm sure one of the psychologists can correct me on this) -- especially given that an .. err.. intellectually underendowed celestial will not be any brighter than the average mortal, but can still perfectly well do its job (there aren't special schools for celestials with 2 forces in ethereal ;) ), and a bright mortal can be as intelligent as an average celestial. So it is quite possible to have a soldier who is your intellectual equal. I think its kind of like a teacher/pupil thing -- but there's probably room for as many viewpoints as there are celestials. It wouldn't be that difficult to pick some examples which justified treating humans as lesser beings and dumb pets, or to pick out examples which justified admiring the things they achieve without the advantages celestials have. Then again, some celestials may still get enchanted by mere cats! Would be difficult to argue that they weren't sapient though (Star Trek bedamned, the word sapient just makes me think of the luggage ;-) ). jo - ---------- "I like getting into hot water, it keeps me clean." G. K. Chesterton jhart@btinternet.com -- http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~jhart/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 03:37:03 +0000 From: Julian Breen Subject: Re: IN> Judaism Rhodri James writes >On 02 Mar, Julian Breen wrote: >> As IN has patrons for Christianity and Islam - and the status of these >> faiths has been given some discussion - is there likely to be any such >> similar treatment for Judaism? > >I would rather hope so, at the same rather fuzzy level that Christianity >and Islam are treated. Judaism really ought to have a patron -- mind you, >so should Buddism and very likely other religions that I'm not familiar >enough with to name -- to put it on the same "we don't actually know" >footing as the religions that sprang from it. Indeed, given the history >of Israel, Judaism practically *requires* a protector in the IN universe. > >Now, what word should an (arch)angelic patron of Judaism have? I've been toying with the idea of Michael as it's patron but rather like the idea of tying Metatron in on things as well. As he is mentioned in the APG as the first AA to be killed by Lucifer, I started doing some wondering as to what his Word was. General concensus on this list was that he was the 'Voice of God', or, 'Archangel of the Divine Face' if you prefer. This meant that he was probably the _original_ messenger of heaven because it will have been through him that God spoke to Adam, Noah, Abraham, etc. Lucifer did his best to throw a spanner in the works by killing Metatron just prior to him speaking to Moses on Sinai...There was much outrage/fighting as a result. When this subsided, Michael petitioned God to speak to his flock through a valiant seraph of Gabriel who had distinguished himself. Zagzagel (Who was to become The Angel of The Burning Bush). By the time that Christianity was on the cards, Gabriel had assumed the role of Divine Messenger herself. Michael had assumed the role of protector of Judaism. (This was mainly because it would please God, but there were of course, rumours that it was simply a case of Mike's Pride being dented following Metatron's death.) - -- Jules - Demon of Rumourmongers jules@bigjules.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 04:10:04 +0000 (GMT) From: Rhodri James Subject: Re: IN> Judaism On 05 Mar, Steve Jessop wrote: > Lots of people suggested Michael, which is cool. I would add that David > had a lot of influence over the Israelites: to my my mind Judaism bears a > lot more resemblance to Stone than either Islam (Fire) or Christianity > (Flowers? :-) I must admit, I *was* thinking that the most obvious feature of the history of Judaism is that it has *endured* through more tests and scatterings and wanderings than is comfortable to consider. David seems appropriate, somehow. - -- Rhodri James *-* Wildebeeste herder to the masses If you don't know who I work for, you can't misattribute my words to them ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 09:34:31 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Cats On Thu, Mar 05, 1998 at 09:43:51AM +1100, Chris Stevenson wrote: > >Hey, I'm *trying* to put it into IN perspective.... What are > >Soldiers and servants, if not pets? > > > > Hubris? > On whose part? In what way? Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "as for their relations with others, that is a long story, but it can be expressed shortly and clearly by saying that of all people we know the Spartans are most conspicuous for believing that what they like doing is honourable and what suits their interests is just." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 09:30:32 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> David (re: Judaism) > > I agree. The "worst" angel is still "better" for humankind than the > "best" demon. > Far be it from me to disagree with received wisdom, but I'd like to mention Druiel here. I'm sure it won't take too much effort to find demons who don't do as much harm as he does. Note that I'm not talking about the entire history of Druiel's life or of the demon's life, but more about the present and the future. After all, angels Fall and demons Redeem. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "as for their relations with others, that is a long story, but it can be expressed shortly and clearly by saying that of all people we know the Spartans are most conspicuous for believing that what they like doing is honourable and what suits their interests is just." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 05:47:14 -0500 From: Andrew Frades Subject: Re: IN> Cats Jesse wrote: > So does this imply that Lions are good at learning tricks cause they > travel in prides, and that cyotes, which are solitary creature for the > most part, are hard to teach tricks? Having no experimental evidence I can't say for sure, but I would imagine that this would be true. Lion Tamers anyone? Andrew ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 12:45:44 +0000 From: Julian Breen Subject: Re: IN> Gluttony, Greed and a malakim of Eli CA Smith writes >Jules Writes >>>> Gluttony and Greed!; > >"I want lots 'cause I like it, even though I'm bursting!" > >"I want lots because, well, then *you* can't have it" > >Result? Jules sharpens chopsticks and serves another Word. Starting on >Greed, cause it's just plain more ANNOYING!<<< > >NoNoNoNo Jules, you then reveal to your greedy and gluttonous freinds that >you are infact a Malakim of Eli, and Batter them to death with the one limp >noodle that they have left you. > :) "Even the noodle lady turned out to be a guerilla..." - ShadowFist/Feng Shui. - -- Jules - Contemplating the Word of Limp Noodles. jules@bigjules.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 08:26:50 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Cats >The reasoning, if I remember it correctly was that there is a separation between emotion and feeling. Having an emotion is something pretty much anything can do, feeling (i.e. being aware of the emotion) is something that only certain higher life forms can do. These higher self-aware creatures are Sentient. Sapient is not (with this reasoning) the best way to say self-aware. Sapient points more toward reasoning which has nothing to do with self awareness.< Or as Twain said, "Humans are the only animals who can blush....or need to." ;) - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 08:26:44 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Cats >Own a pet for several years before you claim that.< I have. > Better yet, own several, so that you can see how one has no more behind its eyes than a tribble ("Julicat, you are so *stupid*!") while another can tell the difference between strangers and Mom. If all I'd ever had was Julicat, I'd think they were no more than hardwiring too.< I'm not saying some cats aren't smarter than other cats. I've definitely met really smart dogs and really dumb ones. >How do celestials think of humans? Smart pets? Hardwired in so much? They share a certain amount of language, so they don't have that barrier to deal with. But do they think human babblings are as restrictive as a gorilla's sign language?< Granted, that's an interesting question (and more pertinent to the list ), but I _was_ talking about the real world.... - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 08:26:34 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Animal Sapience >They did give an IQ test to an ape (Koko, or one of her sign-language using compatriates), one that is commonly used for deaf students. The ape scored rather poorly (a 45, if memory serves), but if several of the questions asked had been checked for relevance to ape 'culture' beforehand, the score would have been closer to 80. The offending questions were pretty blatant, too - an example:< Well, IQ tests are not considered all that significant except as a very general indicator. They are notoriously culturally biased (as your example indicated), and below (or above) a certain threshold, they are virtually worthless. Gorillas being a good example; is a gorilla really "as smart" as a retarded human? In many ways, the human is probably smarter, and yet the human is defective and probably could not function on his own, whereas the gorilla is a fully functional gorilla who is able to interact with her _natural_ environment much more effectively than can the human. Giving an IQ test designed for humans to an animal will only prove that animals don't have human thought processes. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 13:48:52 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Cats On Thu, Mar 05, 1998 at 08:26:44AM -0500, David Edelstein wrote: > Granted, that's an interesting question (and more pertinent to the list > ), but I _was_ talking about the real world.... > > -David Beth, I hope you're properly ashamed of yourself. How dare you talk about In Nomine on the list when David is talking about the real world? On an almost completely unrelated issue, why does David refer to himself as a fool on his web page? Kevin Walsh, currently in human mode. - -- "as for their relations with others, that is a long story, but it can be expressed shortly and clearly by saying that of all people we know the Spartans are most conspicuous for believing that what they like doing is honourable and what suits their interests is just." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 14:05:56 -0000 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: Fools rush in (was Re: IN> Cats) - ---Kevin Walsh wrote: > On an almost completely unrelated issue, why does David refer to himself > as a fool on his web page? Is that a rhetorical question, or did he just ask you to find a sly way to get him some more hits ? ;-P jo, seraph of needing more coriander in my diet ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 09:28:33 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Souls (was Cats) Steve Jessop wrote: > How about this: fire and flowers do have souls: their names are > Gabriel and Novalis respectively. > > Animals have forces of their own, but their souls are rudimentary, > since each is a rough copy of one aspect of a Kyrio. Neat. Also very similar to what Anthroposophists actually believe, if I understand it correctly. (Anthroposophy is a religion/philosophy/school-of-thought spun off from Theosophy by Rudolph Steiner. They run the Waldorf schools, if you've heard of those. C. S. Lewis, an author mentioned several times on this list, had a close friend named Owen Barfield, who converted to Anthroposophy shortly before Lewis converted to Christianity. I'm not sure if Anthroposophy considers itself a Christian denomination or not.) Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 09:39:13 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Animal Sapience David Edelstein wrote: > Well, IQ tests are not considered all that significant except > as a very general indicator. They are notoriously culturally > biased (as your example indicated), and below (or above) a > certain threshold, they are virtually worthless. Wouldn't the cultural bias factor mean that the test would tend to *under*-estimate the intelligence of a subject from outside the culture? Meaning gorillas would be smarter than indicated. If I remember correctly, the IQ test given Koko was one designed for pre-literate deaf-mute children, so at least was as close a fit as practical. Also, I thought I recalled her score being higher than 45, though I don't remember what the number was and I could well be wrong. > ...is a gorilla really "as smart" as a retarded human? In many > ways, the human is probably smarter, and yet the human is defective > and probably could not function on his own, whereas the gorilla is > a fully functional gorilla.... Which brings up the fact that intelligence can't relaly be fully expressed in a single number. A psychologist named Robinson did a study of child prodigies and noted that there seemed to be seven different "species" of them. He theorizes that there are seven different kinds of intelligence, only loosely dependent on each other. The seven species of prodigies were: Musical (like Mozart) Verbal Visual (infant painters and sculptors) Logical (math and chess prodigies) Kinesthetic (athletic prodigies, like Tara Lepinski) Interpersonal (infant politicians) Intrapersonal (infant yogis) I've toyed with the idea of a game mechanic that used seven corresponding attributes. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 09:42:52 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Judaism Steve Jessop wrote: > Lots of people suggested Michael, which is cool. I would add > that David had a lot of influence over the Israelites: to my > my mind Judaism bears a lot more resemblance to Stone than either > Islam (Fire) or Christianity (Flowers? :-) The canon patrons of Christianity are Sword and Judgement. In the real world, Michael is taken as the patron of Christianity as well as of Judaism, largely because all Christians are supposed to be adoptive Jews. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 10:21:45 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: IN> Categories I notice that, among the Archangels, we have: animal (Jordi), vegetable (Novalis), and mineral (David) and earth (David again), air (Janus), and fire (Gabriel) Is or was there a canonical Archangel of Water that I missed? Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 15:34:44 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: Fools rush in (was Re: IN> Cats) On Thu, Mar 05, 1998 at 02:05:56PM -0000, Hart, Joanna wrote: > > On an almost completely unrelated issue, why does David refer to himself > > as a fool on his web page? > > Is that a rhetorical question, or did he just ask you to find a sly way to > get him some more hits ? ;-P > Neither. I genuinely want to know. I suppose some explanation is required. His web page is entitled "Amada/n's Web Page". Well, actually the forward slash is used to represent a si/neadh fada (similar to an acute accent), but the character set I'm using doesn't support them. Amada/n is the Irish for a male fool, not of the court-jester type. (The corresponding female term is o/inseach, where the forward slash represents a si/neadh fada over the o.) Tangentially, si/neadh fada means "long extension", so another way of indicating it without an appropriate character set would be by doubling the letters, as in the brief appearance of the "Tiocfaidh a/r Laa Laa" T-shirts. I regard this as somewhat unusual, and in keeping with my Word, I decided to enquire about it on a suitably inappropriate list. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "as for their relations with others, that is a long story, but it can be expressed shortly and clearly by saying that of all people we know the Spartans are most conspicuous for believing that what they like doing is honourable and what suits their interests is just." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 15:43:50 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Categories On Thu, Mar 05, 1998 at 10:21:45AM -0500, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > Is or was there a canonical Archangel of Water that I missed? > > Earl There was an Oannes, but Belial toasted him/her. I'm not sure whether this is in Heaven & Hell or Night Music, and I can't check very easily. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "as for their relations with others, that is a long story, but it can be expressed shortly and clearly by saying that of all people we know the Spartans are most conspicuous for believing that what they like doing is honourable and what suits their interests is just." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 11:03:05 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Categories Kevin Walsh wrote: > There was an Oannes, but Belial toasted him/her. Thanks. I remembered Oannes, but I thought he was someone's non-canonical variation. The cases of Oannes, Raphael, and (maybe) Uriel seem to indicate that Words get new holders if the old one is removed, at least not in Heaven. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 11:16:57 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Categories Ack! > The cases of Oannes, Raphael, and > (maybe) Uriel seem to indicate that Words get new holders if > the old one is removed, at least not in Heaven. I meant they *DON'T* seem to get new holders. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 16:20:13 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Categories On Thu, Mar 05, 1998 at 11:03:05AM -0500, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > > There was an Oannes, but Belial toasted him/her. > > Thanks. I remembered Oannes, but I thought he was someone's > non-canonical variation. He was that as well. I likely wouldn't have remembered the name if not for that. The cases of Oannes, Raphael, and > (maybe) Uriel seem to indicate that Words get new holders if > the old one is removed, at least not in Heaven. > I presume there should be a don't in that sentence. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "as for their relations with others, that is a long story, but it can be expressed shortly and clearly by saying that of all people we know the Spartans are most conspicuous for believing that what they like doing is honourable and what suits their interests is just." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 16:54:25 +0000 (GMT) From: Steve Jessop Subject: IN> Fascism (was Re: Judaism) On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Nathaniel Eliot wrote: > Okay, I'd point out that Fascism itself is not an evil idea; it's > 'evil' because people associate it with Hitler (which isn't quite > right - Fascism was the Italians) and other dictators. Accepted - sort of. Fascism could be applied in a non-racist manner, but the very idea 'we stand together' almost inevitably leads to 'and you aren't in the group, so stuff you.' Hence I repeat that it irks me that David supports extreme clannishness, because I personally find that behaviour repulsive. There are people who close the castle gates all night to keep out the cold and wet, and there are people who will open them if a stranger seeks shelter. > Fascism has nothing inherently against foreigners. In principle maybe not. In practice, yes it does, because it advocates extreme patriotism, which leads to nationalism, via the principle that 'my country is inherently better than yours'. > David supports Fascism because of it's 'United We Stand' philosophy, > not because of the xenophobia that is often parcelled with it. Rev. Pee Kitty suggested that David hasn't been stated to support Fascism, which I would probably like to be true, so I'll check. To support a philosophy which has never lead to long-term good, because it is always badly parcelled, is daft. Even Dominic realised eventually that the more extreme methods of the Inquisition were a Bad Thing. Steve. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 16:59:12 +0000 (GMT) From: Steve Jessop Subject: Re: IN> David (re: Judaism) On Thu, 5 Mar 1998, Kevin Walsh wrote: > > I agree. The "worst" angel is still "better" for humankind than the > > "best" demon. > Far be it from me to disagree with received wisdom, but I'd like to > mention Druiel here. Well, quite. Druiel is going nuts, and is well on the way to Falling. David has (almost by definition) been the same for millenia. Granted he can't Fall, but we can probably assume at least canonically that he is not Discord ridden because he supports fascism and by association the evils done in its name. And then along will come Fall of the Malakim, and prove me wrong... Steve. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 17:06:59 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> New PBeM: "Reversing Entropy" On Sat, Feb 21, 1998 at 08:10:30PM -0500, R. Sean Borgstrom wrote: > Reversing Entropy > A PBeM In Nomine game. > (You're invited!) > > -- > > rsean@cs.jhu.edu > Well, I've finally finished a story about Carmine, and here it is. This is a description of the requisioning of a hospital for use during the battle of New York. It's not from her perspective, though it should be relatively easy to do a version of it from her perspective. And it reads strangely because it's written in the present tense. Why I did it that way, I have no idea. The combat scenes have had some inspiration from Maya's excellent Caliah stories, but not all that much. Scene: A dismal alley, in an unidentifiable city. Rain is pouring down in torrents, and the figures in the alley are soaked to the skin. Despite the rain, fires are clearly visible in the distance. There are periods of silence, punctuated by explosions, and someone with good hearing might notice steady bursts of gunfire, in no identifiable direction. Most prominent among the group of 15 or so in the alley are a tallish redhead in a ruined cream business suit with long coat huddled over a map, and a blond man dressed in a priest's uniform, complete with dog collar. The remainder of the group look like thugs, or maybe refugees. The redhead is agitated and gesturing wildly. The priest is smiling complacently. Redhead: This place is absolutely terribly situated. The route to the front is overlooked by enemy forces here and here. There is _one_ supply route not controlled by the enemy, and that situation is going to get worse if half of the rumours I heard last week are true. This place is a fucking deathtrap. Priest: Look at it this way, Carmine. It's a miracle that there any hospitals intact at all in our sector. You should be down on your knees praising God for the mercy he has shown you. Carmine looks down at the jagged rocks littered across the ground and then turns back to the priest. Carmine: I'm sure God will forgive me if I choose not to kneel. Anyway, I think that you have a better chance of gaining entry at the front gate than I do. Bring 4 or 5 of the others along with you. I'll go 'round the back with Bill and Mort. The rest should stay out here, for the moment and keep watch. I'd like at least one Calabite and one Djinni outside in case of trouble. Priest: I think not. I'll go 'round the back, and _you_ can try to get in the front. And since you like Bill and Mort so much, you can do it with just them. Or do you have an objection to following orders? Carmine: No, sir. On your mark, sir. Priest: Get going then, or I'll report you for insubordination. Carmine salutes, points to two members of the group, apparently Bill and Mort, and points toward the bottom of the road. She walks down the road, and they follow a half-step behind her. After about five minutes walking they come to a gap in the wall. Beyond is a rather old red brick building, a formerly glossy sign tacked on the front in the manner of a fast food restaurant proclaiming it to be the Roosevelt General Hospital. Precisely which Roosevelt it was named after isn't immediately obvious. The entrance is guarded by five men with rifles, who train those guns on the three as soon as they make their appearance known. One of them shoulders his rifle and walks toward them. Guard: I'm sorry, ma'am. The hospital is crowded as it stands. There are refugees in every room, and we just don't have space for any more. You and your friends will just have to go elsewhere. Carmine: Look, there are only three of us. How much space can three of us take up? We need to go somewhere safe. I don't want to die out there. Carmine's face tightens slightly for a moment, though not in a way that suggests despair, and then she frowns. Guard: Sorry, ma'am, but we can't make exceptions for anyone. We could hardly let you in and then turn other people away. Carmine nods disconsolately, and then she runs forward and grabs him by the neck. She stretches her other hand out in front of that guard so that 1' claws are clearly visible. Carmine: Unless you feel very confident of taking me out before I can rip his head off, I'd advise you to put those guns down now. None of you will be hurt if you surrender. The same cannot be said of me. Since I have more to lose, I'm not going to hesitate to put myself in danger. Is that understood? One of the guards fires at Carmine who maneuvres the guard she's holding into the way of the bullet. The guard's gun promptly shatters, though no disturbance in the Symphony is discernible. One of Carmine's companions runs toward the guard who fired, grasps him by the neck, and twists. His neck shatters, but still the Symphony is undisturbed. A number of shots are fired at him, but it doesn't seem to bother him. Carmine flings the now dead guard in her hands aside, and jumps at one of the guards, slashing his throat open with her claws. The disturbance to the Symphony is _very_ noticable. Another gun belonging to a guard who's still standing shatters, and he runs. The other guard fires at the companion of Carmine's who hadn't moved, and that companion collapses clutching his stomach. The other companion runs toward that guard at a speed comparable to an Olympic athlete and body-slams him. Carmine runs after the fleeing guard. Catching up with him near the main entrance, she grabs him by a shoulder, gripping with her claws, and flings him face-first against a wall. She then spends half a minute shredding him, before she recalls herself. She licks the blood off her hands as her claws retract. After that, she looks down at her coat and discards it, deciding that it's not worth retrieving. She looks back toward her companions, who are standing well away from her, one of them holding up the other. She jogs over, and takes the injured man from her other companion. Carmine: While I'm fixing Bill up, make sure no-one leaves through that door, but try not to kill any of them, unless they try to kill you. Well done, Mort. She holds Bill up by the head as Mort goes toward the door. She starts singing in a strange language and after a minute of this, the blood stops flowing from Bill's stomach wound. She lets go of Bill then and runs to the door, where Mort is successfully holding off another two guards, through the use of a more attractive human shield than Carmine had been using. Carmine addresses the guards thus. Carmine: It's like this. You surrender those guns to us, and you get to live. You even get to stay here, if you don't cause trouble. You don't give us those guns, and you die. Hopefully painfully, but just dead will do. But I don't want that, because there'll be civilian casualties, and we need those doctors and nurses alive. We don't need you alive, though, so don't push us. Now do you really want to feel responsible for more deaths? Carmine looks around at the guards. One of them remains calm, until the other suddenly breaks down and starts crying, begging for forgiveness. Carmine's face indicates contempt, but that doesn't stop her from kneeling down beside him, and holding his face up in her hands, much to the astonishment of the humans around her. Mort then distracts their attention by ostentatiously brandishing his captive nurse and grinning. Carmine: Although you are unworthy, you may yet be spared. Where is the administrator of this hospital? Weeping Guard: Over there. Carmine: The only way you can redeem yourself is to cooperate with me fully. Your guilt is your strength. If you cannot use it in order to aid your concentration, I will have you killed, because you will never be of any use to anyone, and I would not deprive God of the opportunity to repair what he has wrought. The guard flinches at this, but stops crying. He stands up slowly, his gun steadier in his hands. Carmine reaches out her hand to take it, but he holds on to it. She raises an eyebrow, but although he backs away slightly, his grip is stubborn. Guard: I will serve better armed. I will lead you to the administrator, and I will help make sure noone is hurt. His stare is a challenge, an insistence that she keep her side of the bargain. Carmine's expression shifts toward amusement, and then twists in shock. Carmine: You! Help Mort hold the door. Get the gun off your friend there. And clear the hall. I'll be back in a minute. Carmine runs out the door, and sees before her two male figures in badly damaged police uniforms. For some reason, they aren't armed, but the green flames emanating from their hands belied any implication that they were safe, if the charred corpse of Bill wasn't proof enough. They seemed surprised to see Carmine, and she takes advantage by singing something incomprehensible to human ears, but recognisable to them as the Celestial Song of Charm. The pair rushed to encircle her. Carmine does nothing but focus at the one to her left. Malakite 1: Demon! You will burn just as your friend here did. I...I The first Malakite stumbles backward, and then turns and runs. The second Malakite strikes Carmine, who fails to evade him in time, and screams in agony as the glowing nimbus of flame burns through her clothes and singes her flesh. She attempts to strike at him with her claws, but he grabs her hand, and her screams intensify as her left hand withers in the flame. With her attention distracted, he grabs her other hand and pushs her down on her knees. Then a shot rings out, and the Malakite pitches forward on top of her. Carmine recovers slightly and headbutts him, shattering the Malakite's nose. He moves his hands back to his face reflexively before stopping them, and she rips his stomach open with her right hand. He gurgles, clutching his stomach for a minute when another shot rings out. He falls to the ground twitching and bleeding. Shortly afterward, the flames around his hands wink out. Carmine looks up to see the guard she had resonated on standing at the top of the steps with the gun in his hand. Cradling her useless left hand against her stomach, she stands unsteadily and nods to the guard. Carmine: What's your name, soldier? Guard: Thomas Rowe. Carmine: You did well, Thomas. Thank you. Now I think we'd better get moving quickly. There'll likely be more trouble in store. We'll go inside first, I think. Mort, if you see trouble, don't stand and fight. Run and warn me. Thomas, follow me. Carmine runs past Mort into the corridor, not requesting any guidance as she moves along an unfamiliar path. As she runs, the burns on her left hand heal, leaving only small red marks where her skin had previously been seared almost to the bone. Finally, she turned into an arboretum, where a nurse is struggling with three members of the gang observed earlier. The priest is lying on the ground, a gaping wound in his skull, obviously dead. The gang members appear to be having the worst of it, as the long branches of the trees appear to be attempting to constrict them. The nurse wields a very bloody looking hoe with rather surprising accuracy. A number of blankets on the floor indicate that this room had been used as a bedroom recently. Carmine ducks to the ground in front of Thomas and extends her claws. Carmine: Thomas, if you don't shoot her, she'll kill those men anyway, so don't be restrained by the idea that you might hit one with a stray shot. I'll keep those plants away from you. While she's speaking, the nurse slams the hoe into the head of another of the gang members and brings him down. A number of branches snake toward Thomas, but Carmine cuts some of them with her claws, and they start grabbing her. Thomas takes aim at the nurse, fires and misses. Carmine is entangled despite her efforts to cut the branches, but is still able to struggle against and damage them. The nurse narrowly misses the head of another gang member, when another shot by Thomas takes her in the shoulder. The remaining gang members are held fast by this stage. The nurse runs between them toward Carmine, and the foliage parts to let her through. Carmine manages to trip her and she falls on top of Carmine. The nurse grabs Carmine's head and slams it against the ground. Carmine lies limp and doesn't move as the branches entangle Thomas instead. The nurse attempts to grab the rifle from Thomas's hands when Carmine gets up and slashes her back with her claws. The nurse pitches forward and Carmine kneels on her back and cuts her throat. Carmine gets up and retracts her claws. She looks back over her shoulder. Carmine: Thomas, take this knife and cut those two loose. Or, no... ...just cut the one who's still breathing loose. He should know where to find me. I'll just go outside. Carmine takes the hoe from where the nurse dropped it and runs out, moving back toward the front of the hospital. It doesn't take her long to notice Mort running in her direction, and axes splintering the hospital door, now barred from the inside. Carmine: Report. Mort: There are only three of them out there that I could see. They cut down Charlie and Bella. Carmine: 6 dead so far then, that we know of. This is a fucking disaster. I told Cosby it was a trap, but the idiot wouldn't listen and now he's dead. Imbecile. Well, I'll just have to sort it out myself. Carmine moves toward the door and waits until an axe pierces the surface of the door. The holes are getting wider and the door looks like a few more blows will destroy it. Carmine grabs the head of the axe and cuts it from the stock with her claws. Then she gets out of the way quickly as the other two axes strike near where she was standing. She then takes a handgun out of one of her pockets, kneels and aims for a few seconds, and shoots through the door. A grunt from outside indicates that she's hit her target. Thomas and the other gang member arrive, after which Carmine lifts the bar from the door, flings the door open and dives to one side, holding the bar in her hand. Thomas fires through the now open door and Mort dives against the unarmed angel. The other gang member focuses and an axehead falls to the floor. Carmine swings the bar in her hand hard against the wounded angel's head, knocking him unconscious, and then proceeds to belabour the other unengaged angel, a savage grin on her face, thus blocking Thomas' field of fire. The other gang member moves in to take out the unconscious angel, but Carmine turns around and slams him in the head before suddenly stopping, flushed and panting. She looks around and sees that Mort has throttled his target successfully. Carmine: Mort, finish the others. Senan, get up and tell me where the others are. Are there any more angels we should know about? Senan: Cosby left four out front. The rest of us came in behind him. The only angel we encountered was that Malakite of Flowers. Paul was with the Chief Administrator. He says he's a human. Carmine: Right then, lead the way. The trip to the chief admin's office takes place without incident. The chief admin looks nervous, as is to be expected when there are a number of armed people of doubtful sanity in your office. He opens his mouth, but shuts it when Carmine points a clawed finger at him. Carmine: Well, Mr...Hamilton, I'm afraid I'm requisitioning this hospital in the name of my Lord Baal. Resistance is, to use the cliche, futile. I'm sure there are an abundance of patients in here who will make good hostages. The refugees will have to leave, I'm afraid, as we'll need the space for patients of our own. Call whatever guards of yours are still alive and inform them to surrender their weapons to the nearest demon. I'm sorry to have to inform you that one of your nurses, the one who was probably in charge of the arboretum, is dead. She was an angel, and so were others that she killed, so don't be misled by misguided hopes of divine intervention. It's not going to happen. You, and your doctors, and your nurses. can go back to work now. Mr Hamilton: I don't think I will. Carmine: If you don't do it, I'll kill every single one of you, and every single patient and refugee in this building. I can have that done without disturbing the Symphony, Mr Hamilton, and you had better believe I'll do it, because you will be responsible for the consequences if you fail to believe me. Mr Hamilton looks appalled, and then apologetic. Mr Hamilton: I...I assure you, I do not want anyone to get killed. I will comply with your commands. Carmine: Good. My name is Carmine Zuigiber. Just remember in future that you answer to me. THE END. Are there still places open? Or did I just waste a week? Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "as for their relations with others, that is a long story, but it can be expressed shortly and clearly by saying that of all people we know the Spartans are most conspicuous for believing that what they like doing is honourable and what suits their interests is just." ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #659 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.