From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Fri Mar 6 13:21:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA30442 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 13:21:41 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id MAA31219 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 12:51:31 -0600 Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 12:51:31 -0600 Message-Id: <199803061851.MAA31219@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #662 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Friday, March 6 1998 Volume 01 : Number 662 In this digest: Re: IN> If Only Cows Could Fly Too Re: FLUFF! (Re: IN> Cats) Re: IN> Cloned Lilim Re: IN> Re: IN- [Fluff] David? Re: Celestials (Re: IN> Cats) Re: IN> Cloned Lilim Re: IN> Cloned Lilim Re: IN> If Only Cows Could Fly Too Re: IN> Cloned Lilim Re: IN> Cloned Lilim Re: Celestials (Re: IN> Cats) Re: IN> Cloned Lilim [none] RE: IN> Is Art canonical? (was Re: IN- Geometry) Re: Celestials (Re: IN> Cats) IN> Re: Re: IN> Cloned Lilim IN> Re: your mail Re: IN> Cloned Lilim ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 11:25:49 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> If Only Cows Could Fly Too On Thu, Mar 05, 1998 at 11:39:31PM +0000, Nathaniel Eliot wrote: > The heirarchy itself is more political than mystical. The angel of > Marijuanna (assuming there is one) would probably serve either > Novalis (because Marijuanna is a plant, which furthers her Word) or > Eli (because it fits in with his attitude); the demon of Atomic > Bombs might be contested for between Baal, Belial, and Beleth (for > all the nightmares atomic bombs have caused). > It's spelt marijuana, and you omitted Vapula as a candidate for the Superior of the Demon of Atomic Bombs, but some general points. Who your Superior is when you get handed out a Word makes a big difference because it determines what part of the Symphony that Word resonates with. If The Sword resonates with War, it will work differently to the same Word in a parallel universe which resonates with Purity. And the Choir or Band of the Servitor makes a difference as well. An example of this might be a character named Druiel, from Night Music, who is the Angel of Teenage Death. Druiel is a Seraph, so his Word is about making teenagers aware of their own mortality. If he was a Mercurian, on the other hand, it might be about easing the suffering of the dying. So the same Word can be served very differently by different Celestials. (It's not necessary that they be of different Choirs or Bands either, of course. Finding two Habbalah of Factions with the same opinions about everything is a daunting task.) So what happens when you change Superiors? It depends on the circumstances, IMO. In the above example, Druiel was a Servitor of Children in service to Laurence, but I couldn't find much of a mark from his service to the Sword in his execution of his Word. However, because I enjoy giving silly examples, I'm going to instance myself, the Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. I was created as a Servitor of Malphas, and it was in his service that I gained my Word. At the time, it might have been better translated into English as Disruption of Protocol, and included such concepts as contempt of court. And obviously the reason for the Word was simply to cause trouble for people. But for reasons which I'm not willing to explain at this moment, I left the service of Malphas and entered the service of Nitpicking, taking my Heart with me. And so I was attuned to Nitpicking, and the idea of _correction_ entered the Word. So now, in addition to its original basic function of making people argue with one another, it also provides insights into the errors of people's arguments, through the careful use of analogy. So the nature of the Word is changing, due to a change in the Word that I serve. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "as for their relations with others, that is a long story, but it can be expressed shortly and clearly by saying that of all people we know the Spartans are most conspicuous for believing that what they like doing is honourable and what suits their interests is just." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 11:33:38 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: FLUFF! (Re: IN> Cats) On Thu, Mar 05, 1998 at 01:55:59PM -0500, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > > > >Beth, I hope you're properly ashamed of yourself. How dare you talk about > >In Nomine on the list when David is talking about the real world? > > I'm a Superior. I can dare much. Besides, it *is* the IN list, right? > Therefore talking about IN is perfectly canon. > I was making an ironic comment. Since your attempts to move the thread on-topic were obviously perfectly justified, the words "properly ashamed" can be understood to mean "not ashamed at all", as there was nothing for you to be ashamed of. Also, my second sentence was phrased in the form of a question, and thus proved nothing about my personal opinions on the subject. Therefore it couldn't possibly cause me any dissonance, as I made no statement that could be contradicted. > And what are you doing in human mode, my Servitor? It was a conceit rather than a statement of fact. It indicated a desire that nothing I said should be interpreted as an ungracious and insubordinate attack on your majesty by one of your Servitors, but simply as a parody of how an ignorant human might have responded to such a message. Shouldn't that > be just a vessel, or has my former Prince granted you his Humanity > attunement for some reason? And what would that reason be? > I was under the impression that you were aware of the reasons why your former Prince is not particularly enamoured of me. I deem it highly unlikely that I will ever gain any of his attunements, and it has certainly not occured in the past. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "as for their relations with others, that is a long story, but it can be expressed shortly and clearly by saying that of all people we know the Spartans are most conspicuous for believing that what they like doing is honourable and what suits their interests is just." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 08:25:19 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Cloned Lilim > >I agree! I agree! If any old Demon Prince can have Malakim, then any > >old Demon Prince can have Lilim all to themselves. Bring on the > >cloned sheep! Bring on the symmetric armies of identical celestials! > >Woo hoo! To hell with Lilith! To hell with exclusivity! > > > Yes! Em, you want a job over here in Paperback Books? I like your > sense of excess -- we'll put you in the RPGs division, TSR subsection. > I need a few more overpowered immortal female wizards to tease > Elminster, and your Lilim-cloning idea proves that you're fully > qualified. You will be under both Asmodeus and Haagenti in that post, > but that just means more opportunities for advancement. Trust me -- > after all, I'm a Calabim, not a Balseraph. > > (Yess, this is all a subtle way of saying I'm not thrilled with the > idea of Falling malakim, either.) a) It was Jo's idea, not mine. I was just goofing. Well, the tanks of cloned Lilim were, at any rate. b) I already work for Asmodeus. See: http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/articles/INChar/Demons/Balseraph.Em.html c) I gave up AD&D years ago. :) d) The entire image of thousands of identical Lilim lined up in ranks all simultaniously biting their lips and then saying, "So what's it worth to you?" is sort of sick and demented in an Orwellean nightmare sort of way. *grin* - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 11:12:49 +0000 From: Julian Breen Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- [Fluff] David? >I guess it's one of those international misconceptions. Like, that we >don't have skyscrapers here, and wild kangaroos roam the streets :-) > >Or that my country is in the middle of Europe somewhere :-) > Or that you're all descended from convicts... ]:> - -- Jules - Demon Prince of Pommies jules@bigjules.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 13:53:20 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: Celestials (Re: IN> Cats) On Thu, Mar 05, 1998 at 01:38:59PM -0500, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > Cats are curious -- but in certain ways. If something > is threatening, they hide. The cat analogy is still holding up for my character. Her usual reaction to Celestial danger is invisibility, followed by silence. If something sounds like it might be > prey or territory, though... > Her reaction, when confronted by a locked door as she's trying to call on someone, is to pick the lock in order to verify that the person isn't in. > And what emotions celestials have. What kinds of hardwiring a > non-evolved species would have. Cherubim are easy -- they have > the "Parental Love" emotion as their main drive; they protect > and nuture. Mercurians are social creatures (put them in > solitary confinement and they start breaking), while Ofanim > are embodiments of drive and urges to *do*. > I think Seraphim want to know things. It's all right to say you have a connection to the Truth, but they don't start their existences knowing everything, so I'd imagine they spend a lot of time asking people about things just so they can fit them into their conception of the Truth. The ultimate goal is probably to know everything, but they can't achieve that. And Earth upsets them because people can lie to them there, and they have to resonate to make sure people are telling the truth, and also because they may be misled in other ways. Experienced Seraphim (not necessarily old Seraphim) can guess in other ways, but they don't _know_, and I think that messes with their heads. After that, they react in different ways. Some of them won't substitute anything for their resonance, while others speculate, analyse and guess in an attempt to build up a framework which allows them to understand what's going on. Those who aren't careful when building up these frameworks are in trouble. Balseraphs, on the other hand, rely on those frameworks completely. Anything else that goes on around them has to be checked in relation to their own particular framework before it's accepted. There's a reason they're referred to as the most deeply selfish of all diabolicals. I find Calabim very interesting. There seems to be a perception that Calabim are fun people who just have bad tempers. One thing I've heard said often in relation to destruction is "Malakim just do that anyway". But it's different. Calabim want to tear everything down, and deprived of an opportunity to break something physical, they'll break something mental, or vice versa depending on their preferences. And they'll turn on you in a second if you give them any reason whatsoever. A lot of what others might see as friendship is really just tolerance for a useful tool, and I'd say that they extend that attitude to their own Superiors. Everything is analysed in terms of how it will help them break stuff. And that's why I didn't like the writeup of the Calabite of Fate in Heaven & Hell; it was a cop-out, and it was just far too happy. Calabim of Fate should be among the most frightening things in existence, but that character wasn't. It isn't the motivations of Habbalah that is usually the most interesting part of them, but their rationalisations. There are, of course, individual exceptions, but I love the almost infinite number of rationalisations you can make up, especially when they parallel the rationalisations of those on Heaven's side of the War. Seraphim veg out -- no > truth, no lies, nothing but self-knowledge. Self-knowledge is as important for Seraphim as it is for Elohim. If a Seraph doesn't know what the reasons they're doing something are, then they're falsifying themselves every time they attempt to explain it. That isn't good. Elohim love Limbo. > No distractions from intellectulizing and thinking and following > the paths of actions down like a chess-program. > Depending on how Discordant they are, of course. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "as for their relations with others, that is a long story, but it can be expressed shortly and clearly by saying that of all people we know the Spartans are most conspicuous for believing that what they like doing is honourable and what suits their interests is just." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 14:24:24 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Cloned Lilim On Fri, Mar 06, 1998 at 08:25:19AM -0500, Emily Dresner wrote: > > >I agree! I agree! If any old Demon Prince can have Malakim, then any > > >old Demon Prince can have Lilim all to themselves. What's this about any Demon Prince? Personally, I think the only Prince who could alter Malakim is Kronos. Even apart from his Word, Kronos has demonstrated his ability to mess with Celestial resonances on a grand scale. 1) Kronos can already make quasi-Malakim, though it might be noted that it is not inevitable that those Malakim are immune to Trauma. I'd tend to rule against that idea, myself. What their oaths are, I don't know, but I'd wager that not suffering evil to live doesn't come into it. This might also make us reflect that Kronos probably has experience in removing Oaths, and is almost certainly the only Demon Prince who can do so. It is conceivable that Lilith can pull off the trick, but what's the price for removing a lifetime Geas? And is Lilith actually going to remove Malakite Oaths against the Malakite's Free Will? (It states in the APG that Malakim can never ask to have oaths removed, and can never even want to.) 2) Kronos has demonstrated an ability to make Celestials who don't possess their defining characteristic. It is just as strongly stated in the main rules that all Calabim are Discordant as it is that only Lilith can make Lilim and Malakim can't fall. But Kronos makes Calabim without Discord all the time. By extension, it may be possible for Kronos to make genuine Malakim without the characteristic Oaths, or at any rate to alter existing Malakim. 3) Capturing Malakim and bringing them to Hell is not easy. I don't recall any way of dragging people up to Hell being mentioned in any rules. Even Celestial grappling only reduces Celestial speed. Bring on the > > >cloned sheep! Bring on the symmetric armies of identical celestials! Identical celestials? Even Seraphim and Elohim aren't identical to each other. > d) The entire image of thousands of identical Lilim lined up in ranks all > simultaniously biting their lips and then saying, "So what's it worth to > you?" is sort of sick and demented in an Orwellean nightmare sort of way. > *grin* > Lilim are an Orwellian Nightmare anyway. I really want to see Dark Malakim. I don't think it's any sort of get-out clause, it's more like having someone pick up your essential nature and twist it around, making you someone completely different, without any element of choice on your part. Will the Malakite try to forget everything (s)he used to be and concentrate on what (s)he is? That is, after all, the honourable thing to do. Or will the Malakite attempt to remember, and start slowly/quickly turning Discordant? Will Dark Malakim police themselves as their Bright counterparts do? Surely they would be driven to. How will angels react to them, with pity or with fear? After all, it will certainly not have been by the Malakite's choice that they fell, if my theories are correct. How will demons react to them? Balseraphs? Habbalah? What will Malakim feel, when they resonate, getting the check digit of 6, and find someone serving evil honourably and selflessly? What will Seraphim feel, when their resonance tells them the impossible? Think of it this way, if the idea disturbs you so much, what will your characters feel? Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "as for their relations with others, that is a long story, but it can be expressed shortly and clearly by saying that of all people we know the Spartans are most conspicuous for believing that what they like doing is honourable and what suits their interests is just." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 09:45:09 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Cloned Lilim Some people have expressed the desire to see "The Fall of the Malakim" followed by "Creation of the Lilim," so I'll take the opportunity to put in a bid for "The Redemption of the Grigori." Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 09:59:49 -0500 From: Andrew Frades Subject: Re: IN> If Only Cows Could Fly Too Pete Overton wrote: > So my first question is, does this duality of angels exist > across the board and if not how far does it go? Is every Word > paired off with an opposite on the enemy side? In a word (ahem), no. In fact as fer as canon is concerned there is only one Word with this duality, Fire. It is possible that this duality has caused Gabriel to go insane. It is also possible that this is the reason she loves dry white toast. Canon doesn't say specifically, and Gabriel isn't talking. > (2) Okay, listen, I know I am a flaming idiot, I have accepted > this, but can someone give me an idiot's version of the idea > behind the Words? I don't really understand the hierarchy > involved in it, which is to say, the structure of the Words. > I assume since Lucifer was the first created (Yves, pish :) > that he was given the Word of Light since light was one of > the first words uttered by God. But I don't really > understand how they went from there, how you determine which > Word an Archangel has, and so forth. Basically I need the > whole nine yards on the subject spelled out so that my > feeble mind can understand it. Please. :) Cut out the feeble minded garbage, Words and how they work is an interesting and highly debateable topic. Not to mention a tough one. In my interpretation getting a Word connects a Celestial to a portion of the Symphony and then the Celestial begins to resonnate with that parts particular harmonic. This would give the Celestial special Rites that are connected to the Word they possess (i.e. the Angel of Catchy Tunes gets a point of essence when anyone quotes a popular song in his presence). Now how Angels/Demons work within their Word is where the differences really start. IMO, an Angel defends their word, making sure it doesn't lose importance from Demonic intervention, and generally strengthening it through their actions. Demons actively try to strengthen their word by promoting it through direct action (i.e. the Demon of Strippers, is a stripper and actively tries to teach others that strippers aren't bad, they are just trying to make a living... see how well she's doing? ). I hope this helps you. > (4) Has anyone archived a comprehensive history of Heaven > and Hell and the War in general? The history from the APG > seems a little thin. I realize the current Cycle probably > expands on it a lot but I have not the revenues to purchase > such lovely books at the current moment although you can > bet I will get to it ASAP. :) I don't think so, but check out the SJGames IN web site for lots of cool links to other sites. > (5) Has anyone considered sort of alternate evil possibilities? > What I mean is, as opposed to Good God Bad Devil, something > maybe like Tyrannical God Different-Agenda'd Devil? Or any > information on what literally appears to be the evolution of > God (ie. starts off rather cold and cruel and grows to be > warm and loving)? I don't know, these probably aren't the best > first-time-on-the-list questions to ask. The evolution of God is from a mortal religion point of view and it could definitely be argued that God is constant, it is Humanity that has changed. Andrew ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 10:12:21 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Cloned Lilim > Some people have expressed the desire to see "The Fall of the > Malakim" followed by "Creation of the Lilim," so I'll take > the opportunity to put in a bid for "The Redemption of the Grigori." > > Earl > Huzzah. I'm all for that. If the entire system, and thus the universe it's built on, is going to be changed in multiple expensive supplements, I say, change 'em all! Change every single one of 'em! To hell with core rules! - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 16:00:09 +0000 (GMT) From: Steve Jessop Subject: Re: IN> Cloned Lilim On Fri, 6 Mar 1998, Emily Dresner wrote: > Huzzah. I'm all for that. If the entire system, and thus the universe > it's built on, is going to be changed in multiple expensive supplements, I think the point has been missed rather. 'Malakim cannot fall' is not a system mechanic. It is a game rule which reflects the game reality, because no Malakite has ever fallen. When things happen, the world sometimes changes, in which case it's fine to change the rules to match. The Revelations Cycle is supposed to do two things. It provides extra background, and it gives suggestions for events to happen. Sometimes (e.g. Furfur) there is a canon decision of whether or not the event happened, but most GMs ignore that anyway. If FotM says 'OK, we admit it, there are Fallen Malakim really, but we forgot to mention it', then I agree that is poor, and I personally would ignore it. If it says 'STOP PRESS: A bunch of Malakim have just Fallen! This has never happened before! Aaargh!' then fair enough.. It is useable, provided the reason for them falling is _very_ strong, and provided there is a decent explanation of why it could never have happened before. Steve. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 16:12:38 -0000 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: Re: Celestials (Re: IN> Cats) - ---Kevin Walsh wrote: > > On Thu, Mar 05, 1998 at 01:38:59PM -0500, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > > Cats are curious -- but in certain ways. If something > > is threatening, they hide. > > The cat analogy is still holding up for my character. Her usual reaction > to Celestial danger is invisibility, followed by silence. Yah, but a seraph of Michael might not react in the same way. So I don't think thats a specifically seraphic thing ;) (Does your character have a really bad sense of balance? The one thing I learned from keeping cats is that 'catlike balance' truly doesn't mean what most people think ;-) ) > I think Seraphim want to know things. It's all right to say you have a > connection to the Truth, but they don't start their existences knowing > everything, so I'd imagine they spend a lot of time asking people about > things just so they can fit them into their conception of the Truth. (you mean so that they can fit their conception of the truth to reality, of course ;) ) On the other hand, a new seraph will probably be perfectly happy if it stays in heaven, and all that is required of it is to flit about, support its superior's word in appropriate seraphly ways and glorify God's name. God in his heaven and all's well with the world etc. A nice ordered universe suits them fine. (Maybe a Kyrio has more of a drive to experience things and acquire diverse knowledge?) Its on the corporeal plane that they get driven by the plain inconsistency of everything around them. I think what they want is to find the integrity (ie. true nature) of things (I bet they are killer scientists, better than Elohim -- being driven to find the truth strikes me as a much more plausible urge for finding good proofs than simply being objective). In practice, this'll often be a need to judge the things that they see -- everything must be weighed up and measured against the seraph's need for integrity (including itself and its own motivations, on a regular basis). So I agree that they want to know things (some ask lots of questions but others just observe, depending on how patient they are), but its not just for the sake of refining their own worldviews. Those things that don't measure up are evidently wrong and must change - a seraph might not understand why no-one else seems able to see this. Really they need to feel certain about the world, so whenever something turns up which disturbs this certainty, the seraph will probably be very keen to resolve the inconsistency as soon as possible. Uncertainty is very disturbing for them. (A lot of this is also true for balseraphs -- another similarity between seraphim and their fallen counterparts is that when a seraph stands up to speak, everyone listens because they know that if it wasn't sure of its words, it wouldn't say them. So its easy for them to be very inspiring to other celestials. The seraphim who get a bit too addicted to this form of power probably fall shortly afterwards -- ditto for those who have a major problem with admitting that they don't know everything). Earth can be upsetting for a lot of reasons, but it can be inspiring as well. Sometimes people can lie, but there will be a truth behind their words, even if they can't see it. An earthbound seraph needs to learn how to acquire different kinds of evidence and how much weight to apply to its resonance, its hunches etc etc. Its having so many shades of truth that is the tricky thing, but also quite an enlightening one. The main thing is to remember that whilst there are many different perspectives, there is generally only one truth. A seraph might be seen as the prism that separates an object from its images. jo, seraph of judgement, lover of Indian cusine ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 16:28:00 -0000 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: Re: IN> Cloned Lilim - ---Steve Jessop wrote: > 'Malakim cannot fall' is not a system mechanic. It is a game rule which > reflects the game reality, because no Malakite has ever fallen. Hmm. No, I think it is a mechanic also. What do you do if the Malakite PC fails disasterously on a dissonance roll? Does it fall? I think not. jo (Must admit, I'm curious to see FotM actually. I do think it would be an interesting story, if the justification was a good one -- Malakites would get a LOT less useful to archangels if it was a regular thing though. Personally I'm still all for the cloning Lilim thing though. Can't entirely understand why you'd want them when you can have adorable impudites instead but each to their own :) ) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 16:57:36 -0000 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: [none] Em wrote: >I agree! I agree! If any old Demon Prince can have Malakim, then any >old Demon Prince can have Lilim all to themselves. Bring on the >cloned sheep! Hey, now how's this for a plot seed? ;-) What if.. someone who is 'in the know' begins to put the word around hell that one of the demon princes (probably Vapula or Kronos to maximise believability) has not only succeeded in creating at least one Lilim and that there are more in the pipeline, but has also managed to modify and improve the resonance so that whenever a newLilim acquires a geas on someone, the geas is owed directly to her superior. (This rumour is probably originated from Malphas, who has a better sense of humour than most people think) Watch everyone get extremely twitchy around said DP's lilim, just in case they are really the new clone! Watch Lilith jump around and panic about her powerbase! Watch the other DPs start politicking like crazy! Watch the game jump on the bandwagon and start even wilder rumours! Watch the original DP try to deny it (or to support it)! Start those rumours going. You're never alone with a clone. Re: Malakim. I think the fact they can't fall is a lot more useful in heaven than hell. The no-trauma thing might be a nice plus for a DP, but most demons have decent willpower and its probably not that difficult to find replacements for fallen minions. jo ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 09:07:11 -0800 From: "Steven Feldon (Exchange)" Subject: RE: IN> Is Art canonical? (was Re: IN- Geometry) >> the fall. one of the angels to fall Remiroel, the angel of art, was > Isn't "Art" the angel of art? Or is he in pyramid, rather than canon? Both. Archangel Beth's take, which I had to pin her down on for the INdex, is that everything in Pyramid after the Long Gap is canon. There was a set of Angels in the Architecture articles that came out when In Nomine was _supposed_ to be released, and there was another set of articles that came out once the game actually _was_ released. One of these was Derek Pearcy's designer's notes, which included the story of the deaths of Legion and Raphael, and which first mentioned Art. So Beth and I have been treating all characters as canonical if they're in Pyramid, after the gap, and not contradicted by a published IN book. If they're from before the gap, they're listed in the INdex, but noted as possibly not canonical. (This would be Nergal and Vephar, for those keeping score.) The INdex is at http://www.serv.net/~srf/encyc.htm , or linked to right at the top of the INC, if any of you haven't seen it yet. steve ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 17:08:58 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: Celestials (Re: IN> Cats) On Fri, Mar 06, 1998 at 04:12:38PM -0000, Hart, Joanna wrote: > > (Does your character have a really bad sense of balance? The one thing I > learned from keeping cats is that 'catlike balance' truly doesn't mean what > most people think ;-) ) > Not really bad. Her Agility + Acrobatics is 7, and her Agility + Climbing is 8, which is reasonable for someone with 2 Corporeal Forces. She's an incredibly munchy lockpicker, though. Dice rolls are more or less there to check for Infernal Intervention, or when she's trying to do it with only her hairpin. > > > I think Seraphim want to know things. It's all right to say you have a > > connection to the Truth, but they don't start their existences knowing > > everything, so I'd imagine they spend a lot of time asking people about > > things just so they can fit them into their conception of the Truth. > > (you mean so that they can fit their conception of the truth to reality, of > course ;) ) > ObBalseraph: Is there a difference? > On the other hand, a new seraph will probably be perfectly happy if it stays > in heaven, and all that is required of it is to flit about, support its > superior's word in appropriate seraphly ways and glorify God's name. God in > his heaven and all's well with the world etc. A nice ordered universe suits > them fine. > Hmm...maybe, generalising from Seraphim of the Wind (and, moreover, a very "low divinity" Seraph who's spent a lot more time in human Vessels than in her Celestial form) mightn't be a very good idea. But it seems unsatisfactory to me, and I'm a very lazy person. Knowing that there's knowledge out there makes me want to know it. > (Maybe a Kyrio has more of a drive to experience things and acquire diverse > knowledge?) > And also their resonance isn't very useful in Heaven. (Though neither is the Seraph resonance.) > Its on the corporeal plane that they get driven by the plain inconsistency > of everything around them. I think what they want is to find the integrity > (ie. true nature) of things (I bet they are killer scientists, better than > Elohim -- being driven to find the truth strikes me as a much more plausible > urge for finding good proofs than simply being objective). > Elohim can be passionate as well, as long as they're careful about it. Elohim serving Words like Flowers and the Sword almost have to be passionate. But certainly I think Seraphim would make excellent scientists. Those things that don't measure up > are evidently wrong and must change - a seraph might not understand why > no-one else seems able to see this. Really they need to feel certain about > the world, so whenever something turns up which disturbs this certainty, the > seraph will probably be very keen to resolve the inconsistency as soon as > possible. Uncertainty is very disturbing for them. > I think that's what makes Seraphim so similar to Malakim, the search for absolute answers. And they also expect others to live up to their standards. > (A lot of this is also true for balseraphs -- another similarity between > seraphim and their fallen counterparts is that when a seraph stands up to > speak, everyone listens because they know that if it wasn't sure of its > words, it wouldn't say them. So its easy for them to be very inspiring to > other celestials. I had a taste of this in DP of Rock and Roll, when my character made a speech to Thomas which boiled down to "It's not good enough for you to claim your Word as a justification. You're down here to help humanity, and helping Furfur become a Demon Prince won't do that", with appropriate seraphic flourishes, such as using rhetorical questions instead of categorical statements. And so it led to the substitution of the CDs... The seraphim who get a bit too addicted to this form of > power probably fall shortly afterwards -- Seraphim have another form of power. If people know that you're a Seraph, they won't lie to you. And because most of them don't have years of practice of getting around hard questions without lying, it's easy for Seraphim to read between the lines and figure out the truth. Especially if the Seraph makes it plain that they'll interpret silence as an indication of guilt, which it most likely would be. ditto for those who have a major > problem with admitting that they don't know everything). > That is a bad personality trait for a Seraph. Very very bad. It's also a bad personality trait for a Balseraph. Admitting that you were genuinely mistaken is a good way to get out of dissonance. > Earth can be upsetting for a lot of reasons, but it can be inspiring as > well. Sometimes people can lie, but there will be a truth behind their > words, even if they can't see it. > I don't understand this very well. > An earthbound seraph needs to learn how to acquire different kinds of > evidence and how much weight to apply to its resonance, its hunches etc etc. > Its having so many shades of truth that is the tricky thing, but also quite > an enlightening one. I think Seraphim who shelter themselves from the Corporeal Realm are doing themselves a disservice, in that The main thing is to remember that whilst there are > many different perspectives, there is generally only one truth. A seraph > might be seen as the prism that separates an object from its images. > jo, seraph of judgement, lover of Indian cusine And maker of damn fine metaphors. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "as for their relations with others, that is a long story, but it can be expressed shortly and clearly by saying that of all people we know the Spartans are most conspicuous for believing that what they like doing is honourable and what suits their interests is just." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 12:14:57 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: IN> Re: "I am the Clone Ranger, and this is my faithful companion, Ditto." "No, *I* am the Clone Ranger, and this is *my* faithful companion..." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 17:18:07 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Cloned Lilim On Fri, Mar 06, 1998 at 04:28:00PM -0000, Hart, Joanna wrote: > > 'Malakim cannot fall' is not a system mechanic. It is a game rule which > > reflects the game reality, because no Malakite has ever fallen. > > Hmm. No, I think it is a mechanic also. What do you do if the Malakite PC > fails disasterously on a dissonance roll? Does it fall? I think not. > Well I'd say no, offhand. > > > jo > (Must admit, I'm curious to see FotM actually. I do think it would be an > interesting story, if the justification was a good one -- Malakites would > get a LOT less useful to archangels if it was a regular thing though. I've mentioned my theory already, which is that a Demon Prince, most likely Kronos only, has to take an existing Malakite, and remove the Oath which forbids them to suffer an evil to live. Then Kronos talks to the Malakite so that it can better appreciate its new purpose. A difficult operation, and likely most useful when dealing with Bound Malakim, as Outcasts might well be unreliable. As to why it hasn't worked before, who knows? But one possibility is that the process is as tricky as or trickier than Redemption, which we know sometimes results in the destruction of the unfortunate demon. It's a forced realignment of someone's nature, and that has to be hard. > Personally I'm still all for the cloning Lilim thing though. I was under the impression that all Lilim were clones anyway. Doesn't it say they're made in Lilith's image? Can't entirely > understand why you'd want them when you can have adorable impudites instead > but each to their own :) ) Is being adorable such a virtue? Most Habbalah are adorable, after all. (Once you've failed your Will roll, anyway.) Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "as for their relations with others, that is a long story, but it can be expressed shortly and clearly by saying that of all people we know the Spartans are most conspicuous for believing that what they like doing is honourable and what suits their interests is just." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 17:27:33 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: IN> Re: your mail On Fri, Mar 06, 1998 at 04:57:36PM -0000, Hart, Joanna wrote: > Em wrote: > >I agree! I agree! If any old Demon Prince can have Malakim, then any > >old Demon Prince can have Lilim all to themselves. Bring on the > >cloned sheep! > > Hey, now how's this for a plot seed? ;-) > > (This rumour is probably originated from Malphas, who has a better sense of > humour than most people think) > I assume he has a very good sense of humour, as he appears to have no trouble finding Lilim servitors despite being a Shedite. From what I remember, he was also a very easygoing boss. In the words of one of his Calabim: "Can you imagine any other Demon Prince who would employ me to sit in my studio all day painting before breaking the canvas when I get annoyed?" > Watch everyone get extremely twitchy around said DP's lilim, just in case > they are really the new clone! Watch Lilith jump around and panic about her > powerbase! Watch the other DPs start politicking like crazy! Watch the game > jump on the bandwagon and start even wilder rumours! Watch the original DP > try to deny it (or to support it)! > Better than Pro Wrestling! > Start those rumours going. You're never alone with a clone. > Keep incest in the family. > Re: Malakim. I think the fact they can't fall is a lot more useful in heaven > than hell. Really? Are you sure? The no-trauma thing might be a nice plus for a DP, but most > demons have decent willpower and its probably not that difficult to find > replacements for fallen minions. > But no trauma means instant bounce-back, assuming a spare Vessel. And their resonance is so damn handy. Imagine Malakim of the Game. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "as for their relations with others, that is a long story, but it can be expressed shortly and clearly by saying that of all people we know the Spartans are most conspicuous for believing that what they like doing is honourable and what suits their interests is just." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 10:44:39 -0800 From: Armand Subject: Re: IN> Cloned Lilim >Some people have expressed the desire to see "The Fall of the >Malakim" followed by "Creation of the Lilim," so I'll take >the opportunity to put in a bid for "The Redemption of the Grigori." > Since we're on the subject, I want a source book that names Armand as AA of Earth, the truest, most powerful AA. Never shall he fall nor be cloned. Redemption is not necessary for him, he is eternal. All the AA's and DP's bow before his majesty... What, you think if I want these things, then I should get off my butt and work it into my own campaign? I can do that even if it goes against cannon? Armand Ofanim of sniffin' out the sarcasm ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #662 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.