From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sat Mar 7 20:46:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA21026 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 20:46:20 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id UAA23655 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 20:28:50 -0600 Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 20:28:50 -0600 Message-Id: <199803080228.UAA23655@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #665 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Saturday, March 7 1998 Volume 01 : Number 665 In this digest: Re: Celestials (Re: IN> Cats) Re: IN> Cloned Lilim Re: Celestials (Re: IN> Cats) Re: IN> Duality in Words Re: IN> Duality in Words IN> Blue Cookies IN> Red Clovers? What!?!?! IN> Wording 101 Re: IN> Duality in Words IN> The Hero's First Fall Re: IN> Duality in Words Re: IN> Red Clovers? What!?!?! Re: IN> The Hero's First Fall IN> Life in Firetime (a guide to life as a Gabrielite) Re: IN> The Hero's First Fall IN> Alternate Superiors -- ROT-13 Re: IN> Alternate Superiors -- ROT-13 Re: Celestials (Re: IN> Cats) IN> IN Canon and what-not (used to be Cloned Lilim) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 07 Mar 1998 12:48:45 -0500 From: Nana Yaw Ofori Subject: Re: Celestials (Re: IN> Cats) At 10:27 PM -0500 3/6/98, Jo Hart wrote: >At 17:08 06/03/98 +0000, you wrote: >>On Fri, Mar 06, 1998 at 04:12:38PM -0000, Hart, Joanna wrote: >>The seraphim who get a bit too addicted to this form of >>> power probably fall shortly afterwards -- >> >>Seraphim have another form of power. If people know that you're a Seraph, >>they won't lie to you. > >It strikes me that an enterprising (and less scrupulous) celestial of >another band/choir could use this ("Why yes, I am a seraph. Now give me the >low down and don't even think about getting economical with the truth!") And that's when you lie anyway. Preferably about something that the interrogator couldn't have checked on, and watch his reaction carefully. And in certain cases, if they know you are a Seraph, they'll use that information against you. Namely, if they've got information they're bargaining for their lives with, sometimes, it gets infuriating when they're trying to extract promises from the Seraph that the rest of the party isn't exactly willing to uphold...Sometimes, that ends with the Angels framing one another for murder. But I digress. Ideally, it would probably be better to arrange it so that the Seraph reveals to the rest of the party that the target is lying without letting the target know, so, if neccesary, somebody else can pretend to be the Seraph, and, if neccesary, lie blatantly to the target's face. Seraphim willing to walk that close a line to deception are very few and far between, though. = http://www.io.com/~beholder ===================== nofori@pop3.utoled.edu === Nana-Yaw "The Fish" Ofori, Freelance Soldier of Heck, presenty serving Andrew, Balseraph Baron of Theft, the Demon of Plagarism ===== ><{{"> ============ "Life's a Fish, then you Fry." ======= <"}}>< ====== ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 18:32:05 +0000 (GMT) From: Steve Jessop Subject: Re: IN> Cloned Lilim On Sat, 7 Mar 1998, Neel Krishnaswami wrote: > Night Music is more useful than The Marches is more useful than Heaven & > Hell is more useful than the APG -- because the number of locked-in > assumptions in the earlier books are fewer, Once the superior expansions have been removed, I agree with the order. Without wanting to go into extended criticism, does anyone apart from me think that the reason is less to do with assumptions, and more to do with increasing numbers of 'lame patches' in the material? As a suggestion, why don't SJG try throwing one or two ideas for future work at the list? If everyone screams and runs, have a rethink. For example in the APG, angelic characters are given new abilities that they have always had, but never quite realised before that they could use. If that had been suggested that a year ago my guess is that most would have cried 'WW at their worst!'. There is a big difference between changing reality in a supplement (Furfur becomes a DP) and redefining reality (Of course Ofanim can teleport. Why did you think they couldn't?). This is why I was briefly worried that FoTM would basically say 'D'oh! They do after all. Always have done.', but AA/LE Beth provided assurance otherwise. Steve. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 18:36:23 +0000 (GMT) From: Steve Jessop Subject: Re: Celestials (Re: IN> Cats) On Sat, 7 Mar 1998, Nana Yaw Ofori wrote: > somebody else can pretend to be the Seraph, and, if neccesary, lie > blatantly to the target's face. Seraphim willing to walk that close a > line to deception are very few and far between, though. I make it physically (well, celestially in fact) painful for a Seraph to implicitly countenance a lie. So it feels a bit like dissonance, but just barely isn't. Similarly for Malakim who test the edges of their oaths, Cherubim who take risks with their charges, and anyone else who thinks they can get away with anything borderline. Steve. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Mar 1998 13:34:47 -0500 From: jesse Subject: Re: IN> Duality in Words > In the IN cantos, Lilith was one of the three humans created perfect >without blemish. The other two Fell from Grace at Eden. They, either I don't recall orginal sin in any In Nomine product, am I missing something? I think i wouldn't have missed that. I know that in the Catholic tradition the Maddonna was born with out original sin. - -Jesse ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Mar 1998 18:56:48 +0000 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: IN> Duality in Words At 13:34 07/03/98 -0500, you wrote: > I know that in the >Catholic tradition the Maddonna was born with out original sin. > She was? I'm no expert on catholic theology (could this be the understatement of the century?) but how did she manage that? jo - ---------- "I like getting into hot water, it keeps me clean." G. K. Chesterton jhart@btinternet.com -- http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~jhart/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Mar 1998 14:02:35 -0500 From: Pete Overton Subject: IN> Blue Cookies Hola, Once more unto the breach, good friend! >of the Servitor makes a difference as well. An example of this might be a >character named Druiel, from Night Music, who is the Angel of Teenage >Death. Druiel is a Seraph, so his Word is about making teenagers aware of >their own mortality. If he was a Mercurian, on the other hand, it might be >about easing the suffering of the dying. So the same Word can be served >very differently by different Celestials. (It's not necessary that they be >of different Choirs or Bands either, of course. Finding two Habbalah of >Factions with the same opinions about everything is a daunting task.) Interesting example, I play a Mercurian in the service of an Archangel of Death. ::smile:: So what you are essentially saying is that the Word is the context and the Choirs/Bands are "flavours" of it... I see. So the duality lies not with the Word but a polyality (yes I made it up :) lies with the Choirs/Bands who serve the Word. Cool. Of course, my next question is, how do you tell where a Word fits in the Celestial hierarchy? Which is to say, the Angel of Dogs is under the Angel of Animals, who may be under the Angel of Nature? How high does this Wording process go? And what is the roadmap of this, because it must be a weblike mess of a hierarchy, especially with such overlap. Pete E-Mail: pover@golden.net ICQ#: 2192976 "Yea, believe in me and ye shall live. First caller!" -- Jesus, "South Park" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Mar 1998 14:09:42 -0500 From: Pete Overton Subject: IN> Red Clovers? What!?!?! Hola, The dashing young hero has not posted this much to a list for almost a year. ::smile:: >differences really start. IMO, an Angel defends their word, making sure >it doesn't lose importance from Demonic intervention, and generally >strengthening it through their actions. Demons actively try to >strengthen their word by promoting it through direct action (i.e. the Ahhhhhhh, I bow to you sir, I will viciously steal this with all due credit to you and put it in my handy-dandy player summary file if that is okay with you, for it is the best description I have heard for it all to date. ::smile:: Damn, you people is good. ;) >The evolution of God is from a mortal religion point of view and it >could definitely be argued that God is constant, it is Humanity that has >changed. Very few lists actually actively encourage religious discussion. :) It's sort of a moot point since God is All anyways, and I am glad they elected to keep Him away in the distance in the game. ::coughcoughFizbancoughcough:: ;) Pete E-Mail: pover@golden.net ICQ#: 2192976 "Yea, believe in me and ye shall live. First caller!" -- Jesus, "South Park" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Mar 1998 14:15:44 -0500 From: Pete Overton Subject: IN> Wording 101 Hola, Damn, you people is good. ::smile:: >A final note about angelic words, I feel that for the most part, Word bound >angels are far too preoccupied with their words to perform the sort of work >that PCs will generally be doing. To my mind, a Word-bound PC is tantamount >to retirement, but they are more than suitable as an angel's immediate >supervisor, and those sorts of low/medium level Word-bound angels are going >to be the ones most frequently encountered by PCs. That's always how I saw it, actually. My Clarielle serves the Archangel of Death but refuses to take a Word associated with it, seeing it just as you said, like taking a desk job. Now, one addendum that I need explained, the hierarchy of Words, how Words are ordered (ie. why the Archangel of Animals and the Archangel of Flowers aren't both under the Archangel of Nature), which is to say, is it more triangular (God -- Overriding Concepts -- Grand Concepts -- Lesser Concepts -- Specific Concepts -- Overspecific Concepts) or whether it is more weblike, with one Word being linked to a number of other Angels, sort of the six degrees of separation theory on the Celestial level.. and who decides which Words are, well, superior words? Is it just scale? Perpetually Questioning, Pete E-Mail: pover@golden.net ICQ#: 2192976 "Yea, believe in me and ye shall live. First caller!" -- Jesus, "South Park" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Mar 1998 14:16:49 -0500 From: jesse Subject: Re: IN> Duality in Words >> I know that in the >>Catholic tradition the Maddonna was born with out original sin. >She was? I'm no expert on catholic theology (could this be the >understatement of the century?) but how did she manage that? It was a papal decree a few centuries ago. One of the few times the Pope invoked his infailability. - -Jesse ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Mar 1998 14:38:43 -0500 From: Pete Overton Subject: IN> The Hero's First Fall Hola, ::slip:: Whoops... ::falling sounds:: :) >I take it that Clarielle is the AA of Death, how do we know this? What >supplement is this in? No, no, nothing so grand. ::smile:: As far as *I* know, there is no canon Archangel of Death, but Clarielle serves the Archangel of Death, she being a Mercurian recently reawakened to her Celestial heritage (Celestial Lethe). I have not yet truly decided on a format for the Archangel of Death and am hoping that some lovely SJG person will slap me and point me in the right direction for how to handle it, but it is for fiction rather than play so I have a lot of leeway involved. I sort of lean towards Leath Sheales' little take on it, but have not decided firmly yet how I am to handle it. She's been too busy noticing that she is an angel to worry much about having an Archangel watching over her periodically. ::smile:: >This assumes, prehaps wrongly, that pain, misery and unhappiness is good >for the causes of the demons and conversly bad for angels. Clearly not >all of the AA's are interested in man's pleasure and happiness. Only >Blandine (and Novalis to a lesser degree) are intersested in man's pleasure >as a goal in itself. Many AAs, esp. David, Dominic, and Jordi, don't >give a crap about the pleasure of man, asuming it is not a tool to their True enough, but I think Death might be the only Word that would be the exception to that rule. Death being the final transition from their mortal self to their Final Destination, I think *IN GENERAL* that it is in everyone's best interest that the soul in question gets to its destination. Of course, the soul may try to get rerouted by unscrupulous servants of Death, but that is why their opposites exist, to ensure that they get to the right place (which is to say, poaching souls is looked upon very badly). But be it angelic or demonic, each soul coming to their side adds more power to their tally for the Final War. That sort of DIRECT power is gold for Celestials. Therefore, I would imagine that in the past at least, God and Lucifer sat down and agreed that the souls of the dead would not be interfered with, because they are so valuable. Now, this is not to say that there is no activity on the Word! Each side tries to recruit souls who are unclaimed (ahem, _Spanish Train_ by Chris DeBurgh), some try to cause premature deaths in order to claim a powerful soul, and soul poaching is a problem of late since it is widely believed the Final War isn't too far off (in Celestial time of course ;). Mind you, a lot of this is my take and from what I gather I diverge from canon slightly (who doesn't? :)! So take it all with a grain of salt. But the point is taken that it is not a dualistic Word system, and that was my original question. ::smile:: >In real lif of course: >All life is suffering.-The first Noble Truth >Suffering is caused by the pursuit of pleasure-Secound Noble Truth >So, if the angels stop the demons from corrputing man through pleasure, >all life ends. Heh. Don't laugh. Clarielle is precariously near Falling these days because she can't find it in herself to forgive God for creating suffering (which I am told is a debateable point in itself). >A: Why against each other? If the demon and angel of Cities struggled >directly against each other they would be preverting themselves because >the worded souls become that word, if the angel of cities fights against >the demon of cities the angel is fighting against an embodiement of cities >which means the angel is fighting against itself. Sorta. It is 1:49 am >here, and I have been partying, bare with me. I understand, actually, and it makes a lot of sense. But on the other hand, in the Dual Word scheme (which has been disproven but I can't let it go ;) the Angel of Cities would fight against things like urban decay, high crime, and so forth, blemishes on the city, while the Demon of Cities would war over urban renewal projects, beautification and so forth. They have the same vision, to see the city prosper, but from different angles. >B: This eternal struggle of light side of the words vs. the dark side is >interesting. We may have to assume that either all the words were >given out at the begaining of strife and have been in conflict since or >that the holders of the words are pre-determined. This secound idea kind >of throws a wet blaknet on free will, which leads to very interesting >gaming. ::smile:: Well, I'm glad we salvaged something out of this. ;) I guess another thing to consider is the turnover rate of a given Word. They may have initially been given out, but their angels were killed. The other part to this is that perhaps God did not give out ALL of the words and left out the fairly irrelevant words (ie. no Angel of Computers furing Roman times) because their relative influence on the Symphony would have been weak at best. >Where does that leave Lilith since she was not really a demon? >Is Adam still around as the AA of Freedom? I have not read anything on the First Three, actually. I know Caine was cured to become a vampire... Hahahahhahahaa.. ::smile:: Okay, okay, I'm sorry, but I really had to say it at least once, sheesh. :) >I totally agree. This is a great list serve, much better than nasty Seth >and the INWO lists. No doubt, eh? I post a message on Mage-L and I get a new, er, you-know-what chewed. Here I get actual conversation. Go figure. And they say the games don't affect the players. ::smile:: The Sound of One-Hand Clapping, Pete E-Mail: pover@golden.net ICQ#: 2192976 "Yea, believe in me and ye shall live. First caller!" -- Jesus, "South Park" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Mar 1998 14:37:26 -0500 From: jesse Subject: Re: IN> Duality in Words >> I know that in the >>Catholic tradition the Maddonna was born with out original sin. >She was? I'm no expert on catholic theology (could this be the >understatement of the century?) but how did she manage that? It was a papal decree a few centuries ago. One of the few times the Pope invoked his infailability. The Pope did so because it was noted that no ordinary mortal could give birth to the Son of God and that the Mother of God, Mary aka the Maddonna, could not have been born with orginal sin. So the papacy waved its hand and created the Immaculate Conception of Mary. Interestingly engough, the Immaculate Conception also happens to be the USA's offical national Catholic holy day. Catholics in other nations recognize it but it is not a day of obligation for them. Just goes to show you that even though I am a Buddhist, I went to a Catholic High School. I should note that it is Mary the Mother of God who is granted the honorific of the Maddonna, the singer just stole the name. - -Jesse ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Mar 1998 14:46:41 -0500 From: jesse Subject: Re: IN> Red Clovers? What!?!?! > Very few lists actually actively encourage religious discussion. >:) It's sort of a moot point since God is All anyways, and I am >glad they elected to keep Him away in the distance in the game. >::coughcoughFizbancoughcough:: ;) The concept that God is everything is acctually heresay in the Catholic tradition. It is number one in Rome's Syllabus of Condemned Opinions complied by Pope Pius IX. It states that the following is heresay: 1. There is no supreme, omniscient, all foreseeing Deity distinct from the universe. God is the same thing as Nature and therefore subject to change. He becomes God in the world and man; all things are God and have the very substance of God. God is one and the same thing as the world; therefore spirit is the same thing as matter, necessity the same thing as liberty, truth the same as falseness, good the same is evil, justice the same as injustice. Interestingly engough it also states the that any reconcillation of Rome and modern civilization is heresay: 80. The Roman Pontiff can and ought to be reconciled and come to terms with progress, liberalism, and modern civilization. The syllabus can be found at: http://www.deoxy.org/syllabus.htm - -Jesse ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Mar 1998 15:13:52 -0500 From: jesse Subject: Re: IN> The Hero's First Fall Pete wrote: > No, no, nothing so grand. ::smile:: As far as *I* know, there is no >canon Archangel of Death, Well there may be. An AA of Death is refeered to in Night Music, but not named at all. > True enough, but I think Death might be the only Word that would be >the exception to that rule. Death being the final transition from >their mortal self to their Final Destination, I think *IN GENERAL* >that it is in everyone's best interest that the soul in question gets >to its destination. Of course, the soul may try to get rerouted >by unscrupulous servants of Death, but that is why their opposites >exist, to ensure that they get to the right place (which is to say, >poaching souls is looked upon very badly). But be it angelic or >demonic, each soul coming to their side adds more power to their tally >for the Final War. That sort of DIRECT power is gold for Celestials. > > Therefore, I would imagine that in the past at least, God and Lucifer >sat down and agreed that the souls of the dead would not be interfered >with, because they are so valuable. Now, this is not to say that there >is no activity on the Word! Each side tries to recruit souls who are >unclaimed (ahem, _Spanish Train_ by Chris DeBurgh), some try to cause >premature deaths in order to claim a powerful soul, and soul poaching >is a problem of late since it is widely believed the Final War isn't >too far off (in Celestial time of course ;). That is interesting. I would suggest that demons and angels don't usally battle over dead souls because it is inefficent. After Dominic and the Angels of Final Judgement get done with a soul it may be easier to corrupt still living souls than to escape with a dead one. Instead of being an agreement between the two powers this idea would be more like an invisible hand in the celestial marketplace. This idea would also leave open a very few cases where it is immportant to retrieve a dead soul from the other side. These would be very rare since the PC's time is better spent corrputing/saving souls still on Earth. But a covert operation to steal a soul from the other side would make a fanastic adventure. > > Mind you, a lot of this is my take and from what I gather I diverge >from canon slightly (who doesn't? :)! Beth, David, and esp. Dereck? >>In real life of course: >>All life is suffering.-The first Noble Truth >>Suffering is caused by the pursuit of pleasure-Secound Noble Truth >>So, if the angels stop the demons from corrputing man through pleasure, >>all life ends. Ack! Who gave my Balserph alter-ego a copy of the Dhammapada? > I understand, actually, and it makes a lot of sense. But on the >other hand, in the Dual Word scheme (which has been disproven but I >can't let it go ;) the Angel of Cities would fight against things like >urban decay, high crime, and so forth, blemishes on the city, while >the Demon of Cities would war over urban renewal projects, beautification >and so forth. They have the same vision, to see the city prosper, >but from different angles. See my point is that what man sees as good may in fact be the work of demons. We see crime, decay and blemishes as bad but it could be the case that the angels want those things to exist because they bring man closer to destiny. Nate noted that the average angel is about 4 times as intelligent as the average human so we can assume that celestials, esp. Superiors, take the long view and may have very Makivalian plans for man. Why would an angel suport the decay in a city? Maybe because decay leads to movement to the suburbs where they can reach their destiny? Another example would be gentrification. Obvisously from Heaven and Hell SJG does not support this process, but many other portions of society view it as a good thing. > ::smile:: Well, I'm glad we salvaged something out of this. ;) >I guess another thing to consider is the turnover rate of a given >Word. They may have initially been given out, but their angels were >killed. The other part to this is that perhaps God did not give >out ALL of the words and left out the fairly irrelevant words (ie. >no Angel of Computers furing Roman times) because their relative >influence on the Symphony would have been weak at best. Computers is an interesting choice since they are so immportant today. ALso, in canon it is not God that gives out words but the Seraph Council. > I have not read anything on the First Three, actually. I know >Caine was cured to become a vampire... Hahahahhahahaa.. ::smile:: ^^^^^ interesting typo, was it a Freudian or a Jungian slip? - -Jesse ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 15:28:39 -0500 From: "R. Sean Borgstrom" Subject: IN> Life in Firetime (a guide to life as a Gabrielite) Now available at http://www.dev-com.com/~marith/Keely/gaming/gabriel.html is a (very long) discussion of life under the Archangel of Fire. Included are: Transcriptions of one member of each Choir talking about their work. Detailed discussion of the attitude of each Choir of Gabriel's angels. ... of the modus operandus of each Choir. ... of how each Choir socializes. ... of how each Choir sees the other Choirs of Gabriel's angels. Description of common "perks" given out as signs of favor. A "quick-start Guide" to building an angel of Fire of a given Choir. Seven organizations comprised primarily of Gabriel's angels, including a description of Soldekai's Earth Operations methodology. One new Attunement and a handful of artifacts. GMs and players are encouraged to draw from this in toto or piecemeal -- it's not likely to magically become canon :) If this is removed from its current location, it will almost certainly be submitted to the In Nomine archive. - -- Hitherby, Kyriotate of Jordi ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 21:07:46 +0000 (GMT) From: Steve Jessop Subject: Re: IN> The Hero's First Fall On Sat, 7 Mar 1998, Pete Overton wrote: > Angel of Cities ... Demon of Cities ... They have the same vision, to > see the city prosper, but from different angles. How about this: We know that when a celstial gains a Word, they are 'attuned to that theme in the Symphony'. Angels are selfless (by definition of IN morality). Hence they bust a gut to make sure that theme becomes prominent in the Symphony, in a way which benefits mankind and Heaven. As a side effect, the angel becomes more powerful. Demons are selfish. Hence they promote the Word solely in order to gain power from it. They will do so in any way they like, but for personal reasons tend to have fun themselves, and for political reasons do so in such a way as to please their own Superior, and possibly other demons. So the Angel and Demon of Cities could end up working together in many cases, because the Demon might not mind Heaven getting some benefit as long as he prospers too. The Angel has nothing to lose by accepting help, since almost everything he does will make the Demon more powerful in any case, and if he turned it down, the Demon would work on his own plans, which almost certainly _don't_ help Heaven. This would be why Gabriel is somewhat freaking about Belial. Steve. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Mar 1998 18:56:06 -0500 From: "Kirt A. Dankmyer -- aka Loki" Subject: IN> Alternate Superiors -- ROT-13 >itself is not fascist. It would be an interesting exercise to switch >the personalities and words of the IN superiors, What would it be >like if tough-love David was in charge of Dreams or Flowers? >And what if ditzy Novalis was the AA of the Sword? Kinda sideways to what Redneck did,when he flipped the angelic and demonic sides. Okay, I'll bite... Blandine, Archangel of Trade: After the Fall of her lover, Beleth, former Angel of Communication, now Demon Princess of the Media, Blandine was given the Word of Trade. She sits wistfully in her corporate tower in Heaven, abstractly manipulating the grand economic movements of the nations of Earth. David, Archangel of Flowers: Some think it odd that a Malakite would be an Archangel with a word that resonates with peace, joy, and light. They don't understand David: He understood long ago that the best way to make something evil stop living is to make it good again. He is greatly feared by demons everywhere, for his angels smother demons in love, while refusing to bend in the roughest wind. Demons who do not convert after centuries of pressure are destroyed -- individual Angels of Flowers are assigned to individual cases. His angels are joyous, but tough. Dominic, Archangel of Creation: Ever since the Fall, when Dominic was betrayed by his right-hand man, Asmodeus, the Angel of Love (now the Demon Prince of Lust), Dominic has been working harder than ever, making sure that all Creation is crammed with everything God has to offer. Being a Seraph, he is a workaholic, and is rarely seen outside his Cathedral, working on a new project. His angels follow suit -- some people worry that Dominic and his angels forget to stop and enjoy the Creations they work so hard at. Many of his angels has the Role of a driven, maddened artist -- especially driven as Dominic checks up on them once a week to make sure they're doing their job. Eli, Archangel of Judgement: Some think it odd that God would choose a Mercurian for this job, but consider: The Mercurian resonance is perfect for ferreting out consipiracies. Eli's laid-back attitude is disarming, and it is always a surprise when a Triad appears and captures an angel for heresy, for Eli's extensive network of individual angels are well-liked and subtle. Some accuse his structure as beeing too similar to that of Andrealphus, Demon Prince of the Game. He spends most of his time or Earth, personally making sure his angels are happy, secure... and not heretical. Some, especially Dominic, accuse him of being too lax and not taking his job seriously. Gabriel, Archangel of the Wind: As the personification of divine chaos and change, Gabriel is mad as a hatter, exhibiting different personality traits on a day-to-day (and sometimes hour-to-hour) basis. Some are concerned with her servitors' similarity to those of Belial, the Demon Prince of Theft, but no one dares say that to her face, lest they risk a temper tantrum. Janus, Archangel of Fire: Methodical and unusually stable/stagnant for one of his Choir, Janus reserves his anger for two things: the cruel, and Valefor, the Demon Prince of Fire. He indends to cleanse the Earth with fire, and it is rumored that Eli has had a word or two with him. Some worry that Valefor's recent acquisition of the Word of Fire will drive Janus mad. Jean, Archangel of Animals: It makes perfect sense that an Elohite would have the Word of Animals. After all, like the Elohim, the animals have very few choices -- as an Elohite must act as their Word and objective judgement dictate, so animals must follow their unbending instincts. He believes humans could learn from the animals -- if they just did what they were supposed to, they would not end up in Hell. He is contemptous of the creativity of humanity, because it just means they are choosing a wrong path for themselves. The ultimate micro-manager, considering how many animals are on Earth, he has plenty to micro-managed, both personally and through his angels. Jordi, Archangel of Lightning: What better than to have a Kyriotate rule the ever-changing realm of technology? Jordi is responsible for the growth of the Internet and the invention of multitasking operating systems. He hates human because they take his wonderful technology and turn it to evil. If they would adapt themselves to the technology, rather than the other way around, things would be so much better. Laurence, Archangel of Dreams: Laurence wages a constant and bitter war in the Marches with Saminga, the Demon Prince of Nightmares. His Malakite honor and purity is the only thing that has kept Hope and the Dreams of Man alive. He strongly opposed the Purification Crusade of Raphael, Archangel of Purity, starting an open war that nearly splint Heaven asunder. Some watch him carefully because of this. He used to be a servitor of Uriel, the Archangel of Knowledge (for true Dreams illuminate Knowledge), until he was destroyed fighting the Demon of Corruption. Marc, Archangel of Stone: Marc's word is all about bringing people together and making them stronger, something which suits his Mercurian nature quite well. Though it pains him, he also teaches them to kill -- in defense of the group. is love of humanity ensures that he will be just tough enough on them, but no more -- a sure indication of God's wisdom in choosing him for this Word. Michael, Archangel of Destiny: The oldest Seraph, and a big fan of those who fight individually against evil, is naturally in charge of making sure each individual wins his fight against Fate. He doesn't trust Yves, the Archangel of War, because he feels that war and death lead too quickly to one's Fate. Novalis, Archangel of the Sword: As a Cherub, Novalis feels it his her holy duty to defend the citidel of Heaven against attack. Although an old angel, she only recently became leader of the Host, after Yves stepped down from that position -- mildly accepting orders from Michael, who insisted it is the Destiny of Novalis to lead her valkyrie-angels to victory against Hell, with the help of the rest of the Host. Being a Cherub, she seeks to protect humanity against itself, and focuses on them as tools for Heaven. This has been a change from the policy Yves had, that the War was mainly a matter of celestials and the occasional individual warrior. Yves, Archangel of War: The first being created by God, it is considered both a beautiful and terrible thing that kindly Yves, a twinkle-eyed old man who is rarely armed (he prefers martial arts, especially Monkey Kung Fu), should be the Archangel of War. This means that God forsaw the Fall long before it happened, and it is well-known how Yves pushed Lucifer out of Heaven using the momentum of his own attack, though no one understand how he did it. Yves protect the individual warrior, being sympathetic with the pain in the trenches of every war. What do ya think, sirs. I have no plans to do anything with this. If anyone wants to do something with the DPs, this is the way I saw it (comments welcome, I'm putting this out for discussion): Andrealphus, Demon Prince of the Game Asmodeus, Demon Prince of Lust Baal, Demon Prince of Factions Beleth, Demon Princess of the Media Belial, Demon Prince of Theft Haagenti, Demon Prince of Technology (yes, a Calabite Prince of Technology) Kobal, Demon Prince of Fate Kronos, Demon Prince of Dark Humor Malphas, Demon Prince of the War Nybbas, Demon Prince of Death Saminga, Demon Prince of Nightmares Valefor, Demon Prince of Fire Vapula, Demon Prince of Gluttony One could keep Lucifer and Lilith in the same places, but I'd prefer to flip them. Lucifer still leads the rebellion in Hell, but after everyone Falls, they find Lilith waiting for them in Hell -- she already controls the place. She gives Lucifier the Word of Freedom and the Lilim-monopoly (named in honor of the Great Mother of Hell) because of his place in trying the free the angels from God. As I said before, I'm trying to spark discussion here... Let me know what y'all think. -Loki, who can come up with this stuff despite liking current canon - -- Kirt "Loki" Dankmyer PGP key avail. My opinions are my own. love * Eris * RPGs * Anime * Magick * Carroll * techno * hats * cats * Dada I waked, she fled, and day brought back my night. --Milton ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Mar 1998 19:27:44 -0500 From: jesse Subject: Re: IN> Alternate Superiors -- ROT-13 >David, Archangel of Flowers: Some think it odd that a Malakite would be an >Archangel with a word that resonates with peace, joy, and light. They don't >understand David: He understood long ago that the best way to make >something evil stop living is to make it good again. He is greatly feared >by demons everywhere, for his angels smother demons in love, while refusing >to bend in the roughest wind. Demons who do not convert after centuries of >pressure are destroyed -- individual Angels of Flowers are assigned to >individual cases. His angels are joyous, but tough. I take it this guy invented Barney, the large and boisterous stuffed dino? - -Jesse ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Mar 1998 01:19:31 +0000 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: Celestials (Re: IN> Cats) At 12:48 07/03/98 -0500, you wrote: >At 10:27 PM -0500 3/6/98, Jo Hart wrote: > >> >>It strikes me that an enterprising (and less scrupulous) celestial of >>another band/choir could use this ("Why yes, I am a seraph. Now give me the >>low down and don't even think about getting economical with the truth!") > > And that's when you lie anyway. Preferably about something that the >interrogator couldn't have checked on, and watch his reaction carefully. > This is why if you are going to try to pull this sort of prank, its a good idea to be fairly talented at 'detect lie', or handy at reading body language... or just lucky. But because it's quite tricky to spot celestials, a demon with nerves of steel and a few spare vessels could get a lot of mileage out of this. According to Rivet's guide to impersonating anyone you will ever meet (actually its called 'Method Acting -- Expert Advice for Aspiring Demons' but we know what that means), it is much easier to impersonate an angel than a demon, as long as you get the timing absolutely right. > Ideally, it would probably be better to arrange it so that the >Seraph reveals to the rest of the party that the target is lying without >letting the target know, so, if neccesary, somebody else can pretend to be >the Seraph, and, if neccesary, lie blatantly to the target's face. Seraphim >willing to walk that close a line to deception are very few and far >between, though. Mmm. If you see any around, let me know ;) But I'd tend to think they wouldn't go for it either. Its bad enough watching your allies tell lies, but watching them do it whilst pretending to be you? jo (Now why do all my balseraph NPCs seem to want to immortalise their words of wisdom in tacky paperback format? Its not as if anyone with a brain would BUY the stuff...) - ---------- "I like getting into hot water, it keeps me clean." G. K. Chesterton jhart@btinternet.com -- http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~jhart/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 21:16:26 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> IN Canon and what-not (used to be Cloned Lilim) >Feel free to correct me Beth, David and any other employees of SJG, or anyone can correct me for all I care, it is a free world.< OK, I'll correct you -- I'm not an employee of SJG, just a freelancer. As such (as I've said many times), my statements are my opinions, not those of Steve Jackson Games. That said, I do understand the problem with official canon diverging from one's own universe. I ran Champions for many years. The more Champions supplements Hero Games published, the more my universe diverged from the "official" Hero universe. By the time they published Champions Universe, my own universe had only a lot of names and some characters in common. Did this bother me? Did I go on a screaming rant-fest about how Hero Games was trying to make their products worthless to me and screwing those of us who wanted to create our own campaigns? No. That would have been stupid and irrational. I did not buy everything Hero published, though I did buy an awful lot of it. And whether or not I wanted to use their ideas exactly as published, I usually found something useful. In Nomine, admittedly, is being written with the intention of being a consistent universe from the outset, and we are (I hope) a little more professional and organized than those early Hero efforts were. (Not knocking Hero, I still have terribly fond memories of Champions. ) But something that the screaming polemicists don't seem willing to deal with is that ANYTHING THAT GETS PUBLISHED is going to contradict your personal campaign if you introduce ANYTHING that's not out of an official sourcebook. Anyone who expects that a game company will publish a line of books as part of a single campaign universe, and somehow avoid publishing things that might interfere with the improvisations used by countless individual GMs, simply has no understanding of how RPG supplements work, or perhaps hasn't been GMing for very long. A good GM can pick and choose what s/he likes from published materials. An immature or extraordinarily egotistical GM throws tantrums because the published materials aren't what _s/he_ would have liked to see published. I've been letting the self-absorbed hissy fits pass by mostly unremarked upon, because a lot of the complaints are based on something they haven't even read, and are merely making assumptions about. SJG is being very canny about whether or not Malakim will really Fall in "Fall of the Malakim," so diatribes about what a Bad Thing it would be to say Malakim can Fall are premature and uninformed. Maybe they won't Fall. Maybe an extraordinary sequence of events causes one to Fall without breaking the general infallibility of the Choir. Maybe another interpretation no one has even considered explains how it is that Malakim can Fall (or appear to Fall) without contradicting what's previously been written. Or maybe, just maybe, Malakim will be able to Fall and you'll like how it gets pulled off. In any case, ranting and raving about you're never going to buy supplement X because you've already seen the name and this tells you everything you need to know about how much it sucks, hardly marks one as having a stable personality or a reasoning mind. It definitely says to me "This person won't be happy no matter what, so why should anyone bother listening to him/her?" Now let's suppose Malakim do Fall in FotM, and in your campaign, you don't want them to. No problem! All the In Nomine supplements have been (and will be, as far as I know) written in such a way as to offer escape valves for GMs who don't want to make the changes in their IN universe that the supplements suggest. OTOH, what if you _want_ Malakim to be fallible, and it turns out that they _don't_ Fall in FotM? No problem! The adventure will still be usable, and it surely wouldn't take much tweaking if you want to create Fallen Malakim for your campaign. I just DO NOT UNDERSTAND the angst and frothing at the mouth that goes on because the IN universe is an evolving one. I have seen many people post descriptions of their personal campaigns here, with Dark Victories, Pagan Victories, Buddhist universes, universes where God is the One True God and Creator of the Universe, universes where God is just a hopped-up ethereal spirit, INO/World of Darkness crossovers, INO/Kult crossovers, hard-core Christian IN universes, campaigns where the Archangels and Princes have been shuffled around, individual interpretations of the Grigori (uh oh! Anything SJ Games publishes about the Grigori is now useless to you, and an attempt to screw with your campaign! Aiiee! Run and hide!), new Superiors, and every other possible permutation. And yet I see complaints to the effect of "If my campaign doesn't conform to canon I feel shafted." Gimme a break! MY campaign doesn't conform to canon. I am thinking about altering it even more. This ranting makes no sense to me. If your intent is to run a Pure Canon campaign and use nothing that contradicts official Steve Jackson Games products, then your only option, really, is to never create anything yourself. Don't use Grigori until the Grigori are published. Don't use Servitors of Purity until the Uriel writeup is published. Don't create new Servitor attunements for existing Archangels and Princes until the expanded writeups of those Superiors are published. Never, ever create your own Superiors. Don't try describing the Marches or Heaven & Hell on your own, kids, leave it to the professionals! Now come on. Do you really think that's what's expected? Suppose you started sketching out the Marches or Heaven & Hell before those supplements were published, and once they came out, surprise surprise, you found some of what you had written contradicted the canon universe? Oh no! Well, decide which you like better and use it. Does that make everything else in the books useless if you choose to use what you did yourself? If you're one of the people who has made any of the other modifications described above, like altering the lineup of Superiors or putting your own spin on the cosmology of the In Nomine universe, I can't see how a deviation like this would bother you. We've seen some pretty coherent descriptions by some people of what they'd like to see published in the future; fair enough. But not everyone wants the same thing. When there was a brief survey a while ago, some people said they'd love to see a book of new Songs and artifacts, others said such books would be useless to them. Likewise, some people want some of the Big Questions answered canonically, others are emphatically opposed to it. There ain't no way to please everyone all the time. The best solution would be if people would continue to provide reasonable (as opposed to sarcastic "YousuckI'llneverbuythiswhatkindofidiotwouldcomeupwiththat?" drivel intended to push buttons rather than be constructive) input as to what they'd like to see, and expect that some of what gets published will be what they want, and some of what gets published will be what _other_ people want.... - -David ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #665 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.