From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Mar 9 08:28:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA24616 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 08:28:51 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id HAA16639 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 07:42:12 -0600 Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 07:42:12 -0600 Message-Id: <199803091342.HAA16639@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #667 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, March 9 1998 Volume 01 : Number 667 In this digest: IN> IN INWO CotW #2 IN> IN INWO CotW #3 IN> IN INWO CotW #1 IN> In Nomine` Site IN> Book Notes Re: IN> In Nomine` Site Re: IN> If Only Cows Could Fly Too IN> Review: _Liber Reliquarum_ IN> The Immaculate Conception Re: IN> If Only Cows Could Fly Too Re: Celestials (Re: IN> Cats) Re: IN> Duality in Words Re: IN> Judaism Re: IN> Duality in Words IN> Re: Celestials Re: IN> Duality in Words IN> Slaughter Humans & Disonant Actions Re: IN> Duality in Words ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 02:34:52 +0000 From: Sam Kington Subject: IN> IN INWO CotW #2 [Second in the series. Some good cards in here, some very underpowered cards. And nothing that made me laugh :-(. Come on, people, some effort please.] Card of the Week ================ Elohim of Laurence Graphic: A man looking into an empty and abandoned nursery. Ghost-like images of children playing in the room can be seen. Quote:"This place is full of hate, but there was joy here in the past..." Text:Elohim of Laurence can extend their empathic perceptions into the past. They may treat any group in play as if it had its printed alignments instead of its current ones. This does not change the way other groups relate to the group in question. Alignments:Angelic Power 2 Resistance 5 Control arrows: In: (T) Out: (R B) Proposed by Pee Kitty (Pkitty@cris.com). Elohim of Michael Graphic: The back of a man as he walks into a biker bar. Several dangerous looking men with potential weapons (pool cue, bottle, etc.) are glaring at him. Quote: "Threat... threat... no threat... definite threat..." Text:Michael's Elohim can look into someone's eyes and tell how far they'll go in any situation. They may use this ability, as an action, during an attack. All players involved must immediately declare which groups are interfering and on which side. After everyone finishes spending the action tokens, Plots and special abilities may be used normally, but NO new group may interfere. Attributes:Angelic Power 3 Resistance 5 Control arrows: In: (T) Out: (R L) Proposed by Pee Kitty (Pkitty@cris.com). Malakim of Michael Graphic: A Frankenstein-style lynch mob streaming into a room. The ones fully inside the room look confused. A muscular man with a baseball bat can be seen, clinging to the rafters, about to ambush them. Quote:"We've got the drop on him now! Hey...where'd he go?" Text:Nobody takes Michael's Malakim by surprise. Nobody. They treat Instant attacks as non-Instant; they can defend normally and play Plots, and other groups may help defend them. If the attack came from a group, other groups may now aid it; otherwise groups may only help defend. By spending their action token, the Malakim can grant this special ability to any other group in your power structure. Alignments:Fanatic, Violent Attributes:Angelic Power 4 Resistance 6 Control arrows: In: (B) Out: (T) Proposed by Pee Kitty (Pkitty@cris.com). Card of the Weak ================ [I'm sorry, I just don't buy Marc's servitors in standard INWO. In fact, I have trouble with Marc in In Nomine itself, but that's another matter.] Cherubim of Marc Graphic: A woman standing up in a auction. She is holding a painting identical to the one being auctioned. Text:Able to know an object's true owner, a Cherub of Marc can use its action token to nullify a Forgery card. Attributes:Angelic Power 2 Resistance 5 Control arrows: In: (T) Out: Proposed by Alex Yeager (YeagerAW@maritz.com). Malakim of Marc Graphic: A CEO on his knees, begging and crying. A man stands over him, holding a teddy bear and a gun held to the teddy bear's head. Quote:NOW are you prepared to discuss my proposition? Text:Malakim of Marc know just how important an object can be to a person. If this group makes or aids a successful attack on a Personality, any abilities involving the protection or concealment of a Resource or Plot attached to them is canceled for the remainder of the current turn. Alignments:Violent Attributes:Secret, Angelic Power 3 Resistance 4 Control arrows: In: (B) Out: Proposed by Alex Yeager (YeagerAW@maritz.com). Ofanim of Marc Graphic: A courier, handing a envelope to a very relieved looking businessman. Quote:Delivery anytime, anywhere! Text:Ofanim of Marc excel in knowing how to transport anything anyplace. They may trade Plots with any player at any time, INCLUDING during a Privileged attack. This does NOT count as an action for them. Alignments:Straight Attributes:Angelic Power 3 Resistance 2 Control arrows: In: (B) Out: Proposed by Alex Yeager (YeagerAW@maritz.com). [These Soldier cards get CotWeak mainly because they're so underpowered compared to the other Soldier cards.] Soldier of Janus Graphic: A teenager, hanging out of a car window. The car is going very fast. Quote:Wwweee! Text:Play this card along with an action by Janus or the Seraphim of Eli. Link it to any personality in play. That personality gains one power and one global power and may interfere with attacks as if it had the Angelic attribute. Whenever the personality moves using its action token, aid one to its power. This link may not be moved. Proposed by Jesse Rooney (jrooney@moose.uvm.edu). Soldier of Marc Graphic: Kids, trading lunch stuff. Quote:Okay, I will give you my sandwich if you give me 3 essence. Text:Play this card along with an action by Marc or the Seraphim of Eli. Link it to any personality in play. That personality gains one power and one global power and may interfere with attacks as if it had the Angelic attribute. If the personality is corporate or Bank, then you are immune to the "I Lied" card. This link may not be moved. Proposed by Jesse Rooney (jrooney@moose.uvm.edu). - -- Home page: http://www.illuminated.co.uk/ INWO Homebrew has moved: http://www.illuminated.co.uk/inwo/ If at first you don't succeed, give up. No use being a damn fool. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 02:37:39 +0000 From: Sam Kington Subject: IN> IN INWO CotW #3 [What can I say, I liked the Gabriel cards.] Cards of the Week ================= Elohim of Gabriel Graphic: A scrawny lad smiling, as a large angelic figure is giving a bully-like child a swirly (for those unfamiliar with the term, it's plunging someone's head in a toilet and flushing) Text:They seek out those who enjoy causing emotional or psychological pain. If a player is threatening to attack someone (in your opinion), by spending their action token, they have ten seconds to commit to an attack (by spending a token). Otherwise, they cannot attack the threatened player for the rest of the turn! (Does not apply in a two-player game.) Alignments:Straight Power 2 Resistance 5 Control arrows: In: (T) Out: Proposed by Alex Yeager (YeagerAW@maritz.com). Kyriotate of Gabriel Graphic: Two school bullies. One is lighting a cigarette, the other is staring at his lighter, which has manifested a flame in the shape of an angel. Text:These Kyriotates chase those who inflict physical pain upon others. You have a +5 on any attack against a player who successfully used a Disaster or Assassination since the end of your last turn. Power 3 Resistance 6 Control arrows: In: (B) Out: (R) Proposed by Alex Yeager (YeagerAW@maritz.com). Mercurian of Gabriel Graphic: A person committing suicide, except he's looking oddly at the rubber dart gun he's just shot himself with. Above him is an angel, smiling, with his real gun. Quote:You REALLY don't want to do that, do you? Text:They work to help those who are abusive to themselves. You may spend their action token to cancel any attack to destroy (including Instants) that a player tries on a group in their own Power Structure. Their turn ends immediately. Alignments:Peaceful Power 3 Resistance 2 Control arrows: In: (B) Out: (L T) Proposed by Alex Yeager (YeagerAW@maritz.com). Cherubim of Gabriel Text:These angels burn those who have betrayed someone close to them. During an attack, by spending its token, you may identify one group belonging to someone else that could legally interfere on the side of your choice. If the owner of the group uses the token as identified, he also gets to draw a Plot card. If not, that Group loses a token...and the Cherubim of Gabriel gets theirs back! Alignments:Straight Power 3 Resistance 6 Control arrows: In: (B) Out: (T) Proposed by Alex Yeager (YeagerAW@maritz.com). Sam - -- Home page: http://www.illuminated.co.uk/ INWO Homebrew has moved: http://www.illuminated.co.uk/inwo/ If at first you don't succeed, give up. No use being a damn fool. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 02:50:48 +0000 From: Sam Kington Subject: IN> IN INWO CotW #1 [The inwo-cards mailing list, devoted to thinking up new and fiendish cards for Illuminati: New World Order, has recently started on a mammoth project: writing up seemingly all of In Nomine as INWO cards. As these cards aren't eligible for the standard inwo-cards prizes, a) because they use different rules and b) because Seth Cohen, the standard Card of the Week adjudicator, doesn't know In Nomine well enough, I'm awarding prizes every week from now on until all the cards are done. If you're not interested: sorry. I'm crossposting this to the inwo-list because the CotWeek contest results always are, and to the In Nomine list because it's your game. If people object I'll stop. There will be three weeks' worth of prizes this week, mainly because I had a backlog of cards; afterwards, prizes will be given out weekly, typically late on a Sunday. You can see full details of the cards at http://www.illuminated.co.uk/inwo/InNomine/ Anyone on the In Nomine list who wishes to submit cards is welcome to do so. Have a look at the card submission guidelines before you post, though, to get an idea of the common posting format; the URL is http://www.pharmacy.ab.umd.edu/~terram/staff/cohen/contest.html I will award three main types of prizes, in order of desirability: Card of the Week - good quality, well-designed cards that add to the game Card of the Wack - cards that made me laugh Card of the Weak - cards that are ridiculously underpowered As for why someone would *want* to win CotWeak, well, you're not cleared for that. If you win a prize, and can find your way to Glasgow when I'm there, I'll buy you a pint. Otherwise you'll have to make do with the esteem (or, possibly, jealousy) of the mailing lists. Anyway, enough with this, on with the cards. A good mix this week.] Card of the Week ================ Mercurians of Janus Graphic: A *huge* crowd of people, with one man running through it. The crowd is moving aside just enough to create a perfect path for him. Quote:"Everybody MOVE!!" -- Fezzik the Giant, _The Princess Bride_ Text:Humanity automatically clears a path for Mercurians of Janus, parting unconsciously to allow them to pass. They can be quite difficult to catch in a crowded place. When attacked, the Mercurians automatically subtract -1 Power from the attack for every other Organization in your power structure. Attributes:Angelic Power 2 Resistance 4 Control arrows: In: (B) Out: (R L) Proposed by Pee Kitty (Pkitty@cris.com). Card of the Wack ================ Malakim of Eli Graphic: A well-built, scruffy man holding an entire urban gang at bay with a banana, held threateningly. Quote:"Oh my god, he just peeled it! Now he's got *two* weapons!" Text:Eli's warrior angels can use anything as a weapon, and we do mean *anything*. When making an attack, the Malakim of Eli can be treated as any alignment or attribute you wish for the purpose of playing any Plots cards that give a temporary bonus to the attack (Albino Alligators, Bimbo at 11, etc.) Alignments:Violent Attributes:Angelic Power 3 Resistance 6 Control arrows: In: (B) Out: (R) Proposed by Pee Kitty (Pkitty@cris.com). Card of the Weak ================ Ofanim of Janus Graphic: A wheel of fire streaking past a snoozing security guard. On the security monitors we see many doors hanging open; the streak from the wheel that went through all these doors hasn't quite faded. Quote:"It's okay, Sarge, I just locked up that nuisance of a... hey, where the hell did he go?" Text:Janus has taught these angels all there is to know about getting around pesky things like locks and handcuffs. They are immune to any group that gives a bonus to destroy Criminal groups. By spending their action token at any time (except during a privileged attack), they can lend this immunity to any group in play. Alignments:Criminal Attributes:Angelic Power 2 Resistance 3 Control arrows: In: (B) Out: (L) Proposed by Pee Kitty (Pkitty@cris.com). [And that's it for this week. Yes, Pee Kitty won all the prizes this week - because this was the first one, and no-one else submitted any.] Sam - -- Home page: http://www.illuminated.co.uk/ INWO Homebrew has moved: http://www.illuminated.co.uk/inwo/ If at first you don't succeed, give up. No use being a damn fool. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 21:00:19 -0600 From: "rainmaker" Subject: IN> In Nomine` Site I just visited the In Nomine website and I am not quite sure what it is. Is it a card game? Like Magic or something? In my gaming history, RPG can mean a lot of things. Or is it a playable chat or a MUD? If so, how do I connect? Confused, An Apocalyptic Gamer ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 21:18:19 -0600 (CST) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: IN> Book Notes Just read two books by James Morrow- 'Only Begotten Daughter' and 'Towing Jehovah.' Both are truly excellent novels. They're not really Illuminated, or even InNominated, but both are excellent not only in giving us an alternate look at metaphysical realities, but in giving us a look at how people deal with (or fail to deal with) those realities when they're shoved in their faces. Much fun. Redneck Kris Overstreet, web pages beyond belief http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck - Redneck Gaijin Online http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ - White Lightning Productions http://www.antarctic-press.com/ - Antarctic Press Web Site http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/acupunct/ - Anatomical Acupuncture http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/dvpbem/ - In Nomine: Dark Victory PBEM http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/milkmaid/ - The Magnificent Milkmaid ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Mar 1998 23:29:23 +0000 From: Nathaniel Eliot Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine` Site > I just visited the In Nomine website and I am not quite sure what it > is. Is it a card game? Like Magic or something? In my gaming > history, RPG can mean a lot of things. Or is it a playable chat or > a MUD? If so, how do I connect? It is a roleplaying game in the purest sense of the word. Like AD&D, only with easier rules. Like GURPS, only with easier rules. Like World of Synibarr, only with a cooler concept, better writing, better art, cheaper books. Oh yeah, and easier rules... (Honestly, I'm not certain how much contact you've had with face to face roleplaying, so I didn't know exactly what to answer...) Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@mci2000.com "It's the eternal question, really; to be a slave in Heaven, or a star in Hell. But sometimes Hell doesn't look like Hell. On a good day, it can look like LA." - Playing God ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Mar 1998 23:29:23 +0000 From: Nathaniel Eliot Subject: Re: IN> If Only Cows Could Fly Too > > In canon it is implied that very little of the duality is truely > > symbolic; Yves and Kronos are about the only canon duality that is > > (oh, yeah, in case you haven't heard - Kronos is apparently a fallen > > aspect of God, not a Balseraph. Go figure). Even the duality > > between Gabriel and Belial is more a product of having exactly the > > same word, and should Belial die, Gabriel wouldn't have any problem > > going on without him. After all, she didn't have a polar opposite > > before the Fall... > > The original question was about the AA of Death I wrote. AFAIK, > words don't have to have an corresponding Word on the 'other side'. > Some do, such as Fire. It seems that having an opposite number can > cause a Word-bound severe problems (although a lot of Gabriel's > problems come from her nature, since Belial doesn't seem to mind > that someone shares his Word, IMO). Well, look at it this way; if you're a really nasty person, do you care if somebody is doing good stuff in your name? Unless you make a thing of being nasty, not really. But if your a really good person, you'll probably care if somebody is doing something bad in your name, because the bad is an affront to what you are trying for. > However, in my game I often like to create superiors with their > opposite numbers (the AA of Death, the AA and DP of Music etc.) > since I like the idea that these superiors must do all they can to > enforce their Word while destroying their opponent. However they > have to be extremely careful because by injuring their opponent > they can cause injury to their own Word. Identities like Yves and > Kronos may work against each other, but they don't have the problem > I speak of above. Destiny can destroy Fate (if Yves was so > inclined) without hurting Destiny (unless you need the Darkness to > see the Light) and vice versa. Actually, Destiny and Fate are probably the *most* intertwined of any paired words you would meet. But you are right, most archangels will not work directly against each other, but against each other's work. Not because it risks injuring their Word (although it might injure themselves) but because it is simply more efficient; not only do you tear down the opposing word, but you build up your own word as well. So, take the example of Saminga vs Charon (the AA of Death). Saminga wants Death to be all about destruction, pain, and fear. Charon wants it to be about mild transition. If Saminga attacks Charon directly, not only does he risk loosing, but he has been spending effort on the attack that he is not spending on forwarding his view of the Word. If he attacks Charon indirectly, by forwarding famine, plague, serial killers and death camps, he is both attacking Charon and forwarding his view of Death. Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@mci2000.com "It's the eternal question, really; to be a slave in Heaven, or a star in Hell. But sometimes Hell doesn't look like Hell. On a good day, it can look like LA." - Playing God ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 00:28:21 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Review: _Liber Reliquarum_ >>>I picked up the _Liber Reliquarum_ from my game store today. Here are my first impressions.<<< Hmph -- I haven't even got _my_ copy yet. (Of course, I am living in Korea....) >>>In the flavor fiction we get to see what happens to Charlie and Marcus after the events of the IN main rulebook intro.<<< It should be noted that this vignette occurs after a vignette that will be appearing in the Infernal Players Guide (which I suppose you also won't like, if you don't like Pearcy's fiction.) Originally the LR was supposed to come out _after_ the IPG, so the stories appear out of order. >>>It wasn't perfect, though. While there was a section on how to customize the rules to deal with the power level of a particular game, we could desperately have used a section on how to customize the artifact rules to fit the /tone/ of the game. IN's influences run the gamut from Gaiman and Pratchett's _Good Omens_ to Bergman's _The Seventh Seal_, and some advice on how to customize the rules to fit different styles of gaming would have been appreciated.<<< That's a good point, and probably something that gets lost sight of too frequently. Unfortunately, it's difficult to keep an eye on canonical consistency while also writing things suitable for non-canon campaigns. Most of what gets published is pretty much aimed at the "straight" In Nomine campaign; some supplements that give a nod to silly or dark campaigns as well would probably be appreciated. >>>I also liked the new Resources. They tended to work okay, though the songs seemed a bit overpowered relative to existing songs. The song of the symphony in particular seemed a little too powerful to add to an existing game.<<< Well, it is pointed out that the more powerful Songs are _not_ available to the average Servitor (or starting characters). The Songbook will also have its share of more powerful Songs; I don't think every Song should be equally powerful. >>>The trouble is that while most of the artifacts were individually okay, together they failed to say anything about the IN world. It might have been a better idea to group the artifacts by conceptual type rather than by power level. Separate the mythic artifacts, the silly artifacts, and the gritty artifacts, and add advice for moving artifacts from one category to another.<<< I did have a hard time deciding how to catalog them. I settled on grouping them by power level and availability because that's what seemed most efficient. Sorry you didn't like it. >>>The adventures were not good.<<< Sorry you feel that way. I liked both adventures a great deal (of couse, mine is not an unbiased opinion). I thought Hypatia of Alexandria was a great new character, and "The Nybbas Computer" would certainly take very little tweaking to fit in a silly campaign. Anyway, I appreciate the honest review. Hopefully more people will find the Liber Reliquarum to their liking, but I will most certainly take all comments into consideration as I work on future projects.... - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 01:19:40 -0500 From: Stacy Stroud Subject: IN> The Immaculate Conception jesse writes: >It was a papal decree a few centuries ago. Last century, actually. 1854, to be precise. As for the "how it happened," the Catholic explanation is not that Mary was inherently without original sin (like Adam, Eve, and Christ) but was granted the benefits of her son's sacrifice before the fact, in recognition of her future role as Christ's mother and in order that she might be a proper vessel for God the Son. Essentially, she was "saved" from the first moment of her existence in her mother's womb. As God does not necessarily exist in linear time, He can do little things like that. >One of the few times the Pope invoked his infailability. Actually, papal infallibility wasn't laid down as a dogma until 1870, at the First Vatican Council. The proclamation of the Immaculate Conception does fit the requirements for an infallible proclamation set by the council, but it was technically made a couple of decades earlier. The Pope did so because it was noted that >no ordinary mortal could give birth to the Son of God and that the Mother >of God, Mary aka the Maddonna, could not have been born with orginal sin. >So the papacy waved its hand and created the Immaculate Conception of Mary. Well, more accurately, the Pope declared that belief in the Immaculate Conception of Mary was a necessary part of the Catholic faith. Catholic doctrines come in different levels of certainty, from "pious and probable opinions" to "matters of faith." Limbo, for example, was a "pious and probable opinion" (there had to be somewhere for unbaptized babies and Old Testament saints to go) that is no longer held in much favor. Only the very highest level of doctrines (e.g., the existence of God) *have* to be believed if one is to call oneself a Catholic. The idea that Mary was conceived without original sin had been widely believed among the Catholic faithful for centuries, but had never been formally pronounced a part of the Faith before 1854. There were differing opinions on the issue before that; some held that Mary had been cleansed of original sin in her encounter with Gabriel, just before Jesus was conceived. In any case, however, the idea was not a brand-new one. Consulting my _Timetables of History_ (one of the handiest books around, especially for a gamer), I find that there were paintings entitled _The Immaculate Conception_ in both 1492 and 1678, quite some time before the official proclamation. (I'd really like to know what these were paintings *of*, since I'm not sure how you depict a sin-free zygote, but apparently the concept had been around long enough to inspire those painters.) The same thing happened with the Assumption of Mary (the doctrine that Mary's body was carried directly into Heaven upon her death) in 1950. The belief was an old one (notice that despite the "relic" craze in the early Church, no one actually claims to have any bits of Mary's body), but was not given full official endorsement until this century. From what I've read, the pope made that declaration after receiving many, many requests from the faithful. So the whole process by which doctrine becomes dogma is not necessarily either a sudden or an autocratic one. >Interestingly engough, the Immaculate Conception also happens to be the >USA's offical national Catholic holy day. Catholics in other nations >recognize it but it is not a day of obligation for them. Yup. Mary honored under the title of the Immaculate Conception is also the patron saint of the USA. (Mary gets to be patron of a great many things, usually under different titles.) Oh, and while I may have found fault with your explanation in a few particulars (but hey, ask me to explain the origins of a Buddhist teaching sometime), I'd like to praise you publicly for not confusing the Immaculate Conception (the conception of *Mary*, cleansed of original sin, in the womb of St. Anne) with the Virginal Conception (the conception of *Jesus* in Mary's womb, without the intervention of a human father). Many, many people get those mixed up. Stacy Stroud sstroud@uky.campus.mci.net ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 18:27:37 GMT+10 From: "Leath Sheales" <938269@wrpc.riv.csu.edu.au> Subject: Re: IN> If Only Cows Could Fly Too Nathaniel wrote: re: Gabriel > Well, look at it this way; if you're a really nasty person, do you > care if somebody is doing good stuff in your name? Unless you make a > thing of being nasty, not really. But if your a really good person, > you'll probably care if somebody is doing something bad in your name, > because the bad is an affront to what you are trying for. A valid point and one which I agree with. However, I tend to think that Gabriel had some very interesting personality problems before Belial's Word came about, and that doesn't help at all. I feel that most other Archangels could cope with a Prince having the same Word (they wouldn't like it, but they wouldn't go mad). With Gabriel, it was the final straw that sent her into madness. RE: Paired Words. > Actually, Destiny and Fate are probably the *most* intertwined of any > paired words you would meet. But you are right, most archangels will > not work directly against each other, but against each other's work. > Not because it risks injuring their Word (although it might injure > themselves) but because it is simply more efficient; not only do you > tear down the opposing word, but you build up your own word as well. I agree that Destiny and Fate are *VERY* connected, but the point I'm making is that Destiny can promote Destiny and hurt Fate, they can also fight Fate and strengthen Destiny. Fire cannot fight Fire and not hurt herself (IMO). Fighting Fire with Fire is a lot more difficult when you have to hurt yourself to do it. > So, take the example of Saminga vs Charon (the AA of Death). Saminga > wants Death to be all about destruction, pain, and fear. Charon > wants it to be about mild transition. If Saminga attacks Charon > directly, not only does he risk loosing, but he has been spending > effort on the attack that he is not spending on forwarding his view > of the Word. If he attacks Charon indirectly, by forwarding famine, > plague, serial killers and death camps, he is both attacking Charon > and forwarding his view of Death. This is probably a case of my game not agreeing completely with the canon (even though I have no idea what the canon is on this subject). IMO, regardless of which interpretation a Superior takes on his or her Word, anythign that influences that Word effects the Superior. For the example above, Saminga focuses on Pain, Charon on Peace, but in the end they both strengthen each other because they both support Death. Charon could turn around tomorrow and decide that pain can help humans understand Death and change his attunements to reflect that, but it wouldn't change his Word. To give annother example Andrealphus concentrates on the physical aspects of Lust, but In my game, when someone develops a craving about anything that can be considered lustful, it will support his Word. With these problems, it becomes increasingly difficult for a Superior to directly attack their opposite number. Therefore they have to take more political and underhanded methods. Leath. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 10:39:02 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: Celestials (Re: IN> Cats) On Sat, Mar 07, 1998 at 03:04:23AM +0000, Jo Hart wrote: > At 21:30 06/03/98 +0000, you wrote: > > > >The big problem with Judgement is her difficulty with following orders. > > > > I'm sure you'd find that difficulty wouldn't last long. > That sounds suspicously like a threat. But I was thinking of it being more like a deterrent to her working for Dominic in the first place. Even working for Janus, she works on the principle that if Janus doesn't know what she's doing, he can't tell her to stop doing it. She suspected that, by working against Furfur, she was going against what her Archangel would want her to do, but she did it anyway. (And lo! She was absolutely correct.) Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "as for their relations with others, that is a long story, but it can be expressed shortly and clearly by saying that of all people we know the Spartans are most conspicuous for believing that what they like doing is honourable and what suits their interests is just." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 10:46:46 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Duality in Words On Sat, Mar 07, 1998 at 02:16:49PM -0500, jesse wrote: > >> I know that in the > >>Catholic tradition the Maddonna was born with out original sin. > >She was? I'm no expert on catholic theology (could this be the > >understatement of the century?) but how did she manage that? > > It was a papal decree a few centuries ago. One of the few times the Pope > invoked his infailability. > About 130 years ago, methinks. Apparently the matter had been under debate for centuries beforehand, and then suddenly, during the 1st Vatican Council, her immaculacy was declared infallible. I'm not an expert on Church history, but I get the strong impression that it was done for political reasons. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "as for their relations with others, that is a long story, but it can be expressed shortly and clearly by saying that of all people we know the Spartans are most conspicuous for believing that what they like doing is honourable and what suits their interests is just." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 10:55:08 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Judaism On Fri, Mar 06, 1998 at 11:49:46PM -0500, David C. Shadle wrote: > > Fascism still sounds more like a Dominic think to me, or at least one of > his cronies Do you have a reason for that assertion, other than dislike of Dominic's personal style? I tend to doubt that Dominic regards rebellion against human authorities in quite the same light as rebellion against God. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "as for their relations with others, that is a long story, but it can be expressed shortly and clearly by saying that of all people we know the Spartans are most conspicuous for believing that what they like doing is honourable and what suits their interests is just." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 11:32:23 -0000 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: Re: IN> Duality in Words At 02:37 PM 7/03/98 -0500, you wrote: > Of course the Celestial Word Hierarchy is confusing, just as the > legal and beuracratic systems of our own society are confusing, You think thats a coincidence? :) At least, thats a premise in my game (does anyone apart from me go for an attempt at satire? IMO it works like a charm) -- the ways that superiors organise their minions bear a strong similarity to mortal organisations but in a more .. err.. idealised (caricatured) fashion. ie. The inquisition operates similarly to the french legal system (although I've been accused of making them like the belgian police but hey...), if they used standard inquisition methods -- which they actually do somewhat; this is why you can get accused for stuff that you didn't do as well as stuff that you did. The Game is based on a paranoid KGB with the upper ranks being similar to the UK civil service (scared yet?), Laurence's minions haven't progressed much further than King Arthur style knights & peasants chivalry -- but the pageantry looks great! Michael's forces seem to be more like the SAS although presumably there must be SOME who don't think that sleeping in a warm bed when you could be huddled outside in a bin liner is sissy (but we haven't encountered any yet). And so on. It may not fit too well with all the dark gloomy campaigns out there but we're happy! jo ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 12:35:59 -0000 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: IN> Re: Celestials - ---Kevin Walsh wrote: > > On Sat, Mar 07, 1998 at 03:04:23AM +0000, Jo Hart wrote: > > At 21:30 06/03/98 +0000, you wrote: > > > > > >The big problem with Judgement is her difficulty with following orders. > > > > I'm sure you'd find that difficulty wouldn't last long. > > That sounds suspicously like a threat. But I was thinking of it being more > like a deterrent to her working for Dominic in the first place. That's also true. But there's a difference between finessing things when you didn't have specific orders, and deliberately ignoring them when you did. An angel of judgement /knows/ that it will be called to account once a week (or possibly more often if you are stuck with a particularly keen seraph in your triad), so it needs to learn quickly not to do something if it doesn't think it will be able to justify it to Dominic. Not that he'll definitely ask, but... its a safer bet to assume you won't be able to keep it quiet forever, especially if you feel guilty about it, especially since he probably has the sort of sextuple-barreled glare that makes you want to start confessing anything you might possibly have done wrong (thats one of the senior attunements, isn't it?). On the other hand, if something comes up which you don't have specific orders on, and you want to take some unauthorised action but think you are OK with justifying it, then you'd probably be in more trouble if you didn't do it than if you did. You just have to learn to trust your own judgement, and be OK with having to explain yourself on a regular basis. Is it H&H which says that Dominic would rather destroy a servitor than see it disobey a direct order? I guess if that is a problem, it might be a good organisation to avoid ;) jo ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 12:58:53 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Duality in Words On Mon, Mar 09, 1998 at 11:32:23AM -0000, Hart, Joanna wrote: The Game is based on a paranoid KGB with the > upper ranks being similar to the UK civil service (scared yet?), Laurence's But are "Contacts leading to suspicion of espionage" a crime or a grounds for investigation? (If you interpreted this as meaning that under Stalin the above was in fact a crime with a minimum ten-year sentence, you would be absolutely right.) Is surrendering in combat an act of treason for which the minimum punishment set down by law is death, irrespective of alleged mitigating circumstances like subsequent escape and/or infiltration? Do Servitors of Technology regularly get arrested for "wrecking" and "diversion"? Can you get fifteen years in a labour camp for stealing a spool of thread (described in the court documents as 200 metres of sewing material) under the title of "Theft of Socialist Property"? Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "as for their relations with others, that is a long story, but it can be expressed shortly and clearly by saying that of all people we know the Spartans are most conspicuous for believing that what they like doing is honourable and what suits their interests is just." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 13:28:25 +0000 From: "PD Andrews" Subject: IN> Slaughter Humans & Disonant Actions Dear All, The subtle machinations of Maplhas are now apparent, a differing of opinions has occurred. What happens when a superior *orders* an underling to do something that would normally generate dissonance? Does the fact it is an order overide the dissonance, or do they be nice and immediately remove it, or does it depend on the order? Examples: A Malakite of Gabriel is ordered by gabriel to punish (kill) a human. On meeting human, malakite finds him to be the most noble, self-sacrificing, kind and caring person he has ever encountered. Normally this would cause the malakite to gain dissonance if he killed him?..... An ofanite of (doesn't matter!) is 'restrained' because a superior orders him to remain at point X, or place himself in the custody of X, who restrains him. A seraph is ordered to tell a human that the sky is red! A cherub is ordered to kill/destroy the object of his attunement (without removing it, just in case...) You'll notice the examples are choir resonances, I am assuming that if your superior orders you to break his/her dissonance conditions then no ill effect occcurs? As a bad exampple: Michael, it is dissonant for angels of war to retreat from a fight, unless ordered to do so by a superior Does the superior mean any angel of higher rank within 'your' organisation, or your superior only, or any superior? other options? Paul, dissonant servitor of apathy, Oops I *did* something... (Could I suggest lecture theatres as potential apathetic tethers? Nothing much seems to happen in them.....Oops, and again!) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 13:29:34 -0000 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: Re: IN> Duality in Words (NB. some of the details may be a bit flaky because I've never had to work this out further than it applies to the (angelic) PCs -- I think it would be much fun to run a game in which all the PCs were Asmodeans though.. for me at least) - ---Kevin Walsh wrote: > > On Mon, Mar 09, 1998 at 11:32:23AM -0000, Hart, Joanna wrote: > The Game is based on a paranoid KGB with the > > upper ranks being similar to the UK civil service (scared yet?), Laurence's > > But are "Contacts leading to suspicion of espionage" a crime or a grounds > for investigation? Depends who you are (and who you know). Its probably a heinous crime if you are working for one of the Game's enemies. You'd have to be sleeping with the Prince himself (or someone who is) for it not to be grounds for investigation tho. OTOH since everyone below a certain level is being constantly investigated anyway it mightn't take much to up the level. Contacts between high ranking Game servitors and 'the opposition' are a special case -- rank hath its privileges. > > Is surrendering in combat an act of treason for which the minimum > punishment set down by law is death Depends who you are (and who you know). I suspect that Baal's military police are rather nastier on this one. That's military law for ya. > Do Servitors of Technology regularly get arrested for "wrecking" and > "diversion"? Depends how good they have been about paying off their local Game people with snips of useful technology. > Can you get fifteen years in a labour camp for stealing a spool of thread Only 15 years? It doesn't take much for them to get hard on the case of theft demons... jo ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #667 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.