From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Mar 9 16:22:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA06069 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 16:22:43 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id OAA25824 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 14:31:49 -0600 Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 14:31:49 -0600 Message-Id: <199803092031.OAA25824@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #669 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, March 9 1998 Volume 01 : Number 669 In this digest: Re: IN> Slaughter Humans & Disonant Actions Re: IN> Re: IN- Lilith IN> Dice Re: IN> God Canons? (Re: IN> The Hero's First Fall) Re: IN> IN Canon and what-not In Nomine Crosseyed (was Re: IN> Judaism) Lilith (Re: IN> Duality in Words) Re: IN> Cloned Lilim Re: IN> In Nomine` Site Re: IN> IN INWO CotW #1 Re: IN> Slaughter Humans & Disonant Actions Re: IN> Re: IN- Lilith Re: IN> IN INWO CotW #3 Re: IN> Slaughter Humans & Disonant Actions Re: IN> Slaughter Humans & Disonant Actions Re: IN> In Nomine` Site IN> Re: Announcement! IN> Re: Announcement! Re: IN> Re: IN- Lilith RE: IN> Slaughter Humans & Disonant Actions Re: IN> Re: IN- Lilith Re: IN> In Nomine` Site ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 13:05:03 +0000 From: Nathaniel Eliot Subject: Re: IN> Slaughter Humans & Disonant Actions > The subtle machinations of Maplhas are now apparent, a differing > of opinions has occurred. What happens when a superior *orders* an > underling to do something that would normally generate dissonance? > Does the fact it is an order overide the dissonance, or do they be > nice and immediately remove it, or does it depend on the order? It depends. I'd say that for Malakim, most of their Oaths have an unspoken "Unless ordered otherwise by my Archangel" attached. For others, it'd probably just be removed once the act was done. Of course, of the others, there is one Choir that does not ever have this problem: the Elohim. Because they are obeying orders, they are not being dissonant, no matter *what* they do (even if that what is falling in love...) > Examples: > A Malakite of Gabriel is ordered by gabriel to punish (kill) a > human. On meeting human, malakite finds him to be the most noble, > self-sacrificing, kind and caring person he has ever encountered. > Normally this would cause the malakite to gain dissonance if he > killed him?..... Nope - killing a good person is not dissonant for a Malakite unless they have sworn not to. Also, see above. > An ofanite of (doesn't matter!) is 'restrained' because a superior > orders him to remain at point X, or place himself in the custody of > X, who restrains him. Well, there are ways to wiggle that, but probably they would be dissonant. Stay at point X could be interpreted as stay *really near* point X - the Ophanim could still pace, presumeably. I'm not sure how the Ophanim resonance works; if it says that they must not voluntarily be restrained, then the Ophanite wouldn't be dissonant even if he was restrained... > A seraph is ordered to tell a human that the sky is red! Dissonant. > A cherub is ordered to kill/destroy the object of his attunement > (without removing it, just in case...) Dissonant. > You'll notice the examples are choir resonances, I am assuming that > if your superior orders you to break his/her dissonance conditions > then no ill effect occcurs? Hmmm - not entirely certain. Some of them (War, to take your example) are really flexible; some of them (Dreams) may not be, even for the Superior. > As a bad exampple: Michael, it is dissonant for angels of war to > retreat from a fight, unless ordered to do so by a superior Note that this doesn't make much sense, because their superior, unless they were of a different AA, wouldn't be able to retreat w/o orders from *his* superior, and so on. (In my game, I have that as the dissonance condition for Sword, which is a major subset of War. War has the dissonance of Sword [never dissobey an officer] and so is often assigned to order Sword-servators around...) > Does the superior mean any angel of higher rank within 'your' > organisation, or your superior only, or any superior? I'd rule anybody you were ordered to obey by somebody who had authority. So your superior would have to assign you a leader, who in turn could assign you another leader. The rules of precidence, however, are something I just don't feel like getting into... Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@mci2000.com "It's the eternal question, really; to be a slave in Heaven, or a star in Hell. But sometimes Hell doesn't look like Hell. On a good day, it can look like LA." - Playing God ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 13:05:03 +0000 From: Nathaniel Eliot Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Lilith > I like small numbers of Lilim. Very small numbers. In my universe, > I believe Saminga has a grand total of two. Thousands of Shedim, > though. Here's some of my take on Lilim: Okay, the average demon 'fledges' at seven forces. They are the equivalent of adults in infernal society at that point; old enough to be trusted to do stuff on their own. Below that, they are frotlings and imps, the equivilent of demonic children. So the average PC level demon, a nine forcer, is head and shoulders above everybody else (literally, in fact - in my celestial realm, your size is mostly governed by how many forces you have). They are the equivalent of seven foot people in a world that averages about five foot six. They stand out, and they are compairatively rare. *Every* Lilim is a nine forcer. They start out that way. They are *really* rare, even amoung nine-forcers - Lilith doesn't make them very frequently, and she charges heavily (Mammon just loves her, as a wonderful example of a monopolistic supplier). So every Lilim is a heavy hitter, or percieved as such. > > > That, and when you're a PC and Dominic turns out to be your Dad... > > > > > Lilith and Dominic? That's just...weird. > > Nah. Beth posted one to the List recently. A Bright Lilim of > Dominic. She, of course, is being sucked into my game, but just > imagine the ANGST... > > "Sorry your Dad Fell. Here's a cookie." Em, you are just *sick*. (*sick*, *sick*, *SICK*!) Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@mci2000.com "It's the eternal question, really; to be a slave in Heaven, or a star in Hell. But sometimes Hell doesn't look like Hell. On a good day, it can look like LA." - Playing God ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 18:23:48 +0000 From: "Ad." Subject: IN> Dice I've been thinking. if you replaced the 2d6 with a d12.... Stat Old prob New prob 1 0.0% 8.3% 2 2.8% 16.7% 3 8.3% 25.0% 4 16.7% 33.3% 5 27.8% 41.7% 6 41.7% 50.0% 7 58.3% 58.3% 8 72.2% 66.7% 9 83.3% 75.0% 10 91.7% 83.3% 11 97.2% 91.7% 12 100.0% 100.0% At average celestial kind of numbers it makes very little difference but it allows humans with stats of 3-5 ot have a chance of suceeding and means that you can no longer make success almost gauranteed by increasing your stat to a mere 10 - 6 + skill/4 - easy! I must try it out, though I've no idea what'll happen to interventions, Adam, Ofanim of Last Minute Player Recruitment. http://homepage.tinet.ie/~kellys/In_Nomine/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 13:31:02 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> God > Does God have consciousness in this model? (Imagine, an atheist In > Nomine.) Hmm...I see farther down in the post that he doesn't, exactly. *jump up and down* I have one of those! Okay, the arguments aren't very good, BUT... :) > Angelic victory is the defeat of the demons and the garauntee > > that the symphony will always represent selfless ideals, the essense of > > the Infernal victory is the Fall of the Symphony and hence the Fall of > > God. > > Or it splits apart into lots of seperate universes which have no > connection with each other, and then we start playing Mage. Or we all go home. :) "Look! I brought a copy of 'Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles'! Let's play!" - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 13:27:16 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Canons? (Re: IN> The Hero's First Fall) At 3:13 PM -0500 3/7/98, jesse wrote: >Pete wrote: >> Mind you, a lot of this is my take and from what I gather I diverge >>from canon slightly (who doesn't? :)! > >Beth, David, and esp. Dereck? Oh, I wouldn't go that far, no I wouldn't... I *know* canon (except when I manage to roll that 666/111 on the Intelligence roll and get brainfried about a memory), but I don't always use it *myself*. >Another example would be gentrification. Obvisously from Heaven and Hell >SJG does not support this process, but many other portions of society view >it as a good thing. Actually, the author of that adventure disliked gentrification. SJ Games, as a whole, has very little "official" opinion on it. At 12:46 PM +0000 3/8/98, Nathaniel Eliot wrote: >>> Mind you, a lot of this is my take and from what I gather I diverge >>>from canon slightly (who doesn't? :)! >> >>Beth, David, and esp. Dereck? > >Bite your tounge. They influence it, but as far as I have seen (from >gaming with Beth and Walter) they don't exactly follow it to the >letter... He heard me rant about the Kyrio stuff in the APG. *Boy* did he hear me rant... (I waffle some about the "know how to take care of your hosts" one -- I can almost see that, since their dissonance is so dependant on that -- but the other one.... NIMG! [Not In My Game]) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 12:43:35 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> IN Canon and what-not At 2:22 AM -0500 3/7/98, jesse wrote: >I should point out here that the APG is supposed to be indepedent of Night >Music and the Marches. Night Music is, weirdly engough, not really >"core" cannon but rather "revelations" canon that SJG can and probably will >steam roll over in the next set of sourcebooks. ??? Urm, what exactly do you mean by that? Do you mean, SJ Games will say, "Oh, that. We are going to ignore everything that happened here and set back the clock"? That we're going to ignore all the rules material? (Fix some of the glaring errors -- dissonance used for disturbance in the Saints writeup, for intance -- yes. Ignore? No.) I don't understand what you mean. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 13:10:31 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: In Nomine Crosseyed (was Re: IN> Judaism) At 3:03 AM -0500 3/7/98, jesse wrote: >It would be an interesting exercise to switch >the personalities and words of the IN superiors, What would it be >like if tough-love David was in charge of Dreams or Flowers? >And what if ditzy Novalis was the AA of the Sword? In Nomine Crosseyed! Hmmmmm, hmmmmm... Dommie, in cloak and all, spouting oracular (Fire) visions. (Which would, of course, be *True*!) Laurence, insisting on *honorable* Trade! I'm trying to see Marc for War, but my mind hurts... Oh. I see someone else has ROT-13'ed them. Now my mind hurts *more*. (Princess mode: " That's not canon! " Archangel mode: "I gotta get the new memory installed so I can have PageMill *and* Eudora *and* Netscape running so I can put these things in quicker! This is good stuff! ") - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 13:21:15 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Lilith (Re: IN> Duality in Words) At 10:27 PM -0500 3/7/98, Frank Lazar wrote: >>> In the IN cantos, Lilith was one of the three humans created perfect >>>without blemish. The other two Fell from Grace at Eden. They, either >> >>I don't recall orginal sin in any In Nomine product, am I missing >>something? I think i wouldn't have missed that. I know that in the >>Catholic tradition the Maddonna was born with out original sin. > >InNomine moves further from conventional Genesis than you think. According >to the APG, there were humans existing before Adam and his two women. In >this view they are not the progenitors of humankind, just factors in a >celestial debate. Nothing but lab animals, you mean. "You're part of a grand experiment!" they said. "You're representatives of all your race!" they said. "Just stay here under our unhuman microscope and live out your petty little lives. Oh, and by the way, we've created a mate for you. He's male, what more can you ask for?" What more could I ask for? Out. I'm a person, not some little cypher for their games. I'm a human, not a pet. I'm not going to run their little mazes and smile when they pat me on the head and give me food. I want *more*, I want *meaning*, I don't want to live in a gilded cage. The door wasn't locked, and all it took was a push. I never asked for any favors from them. I'm not a child. I'm independant. I don't need them. I don't owe them anything. (And Beth whistles mildly...) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 12:58:10 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Cloned Lilim At 6:32 PM +0000 3/7/98, Steve Jessop wrote: >On Sat, 7 Mar 1998, Neel Krishnaswami wrote: > >For example in the APG, angelic characters are given new abilities that >they have always had, but never quite realised before that they could use. >If that had been suggested that a year ago my guess is that most would >have cried 'WW at their worst!'. ... Yes, well. I think the IPG has rather a bit less of that -- mostly expansions (usually logical, far as I can tell) on how a resonance can be used. For instance, Lilim can take a penalty and resonate looking for more specific Needs than the usual grab-bag. There's only one additional Check Digit Table (the others have been flung down and *danced* upon, to quote Twain). >There is a big difference between changing reality in a supplement (Furfur >becomes a DP) and redefining reality (Of course Ofanim can teleport. Balseraph resonance roll> Why did you think they couldn't?). They don't teleport -- they warp briefly. (They can't go through solid objects.) I personally liked that. (I personally do not speak civily of the Kyriotate expansions, though...) I doubt that sort of expansion will become a habit, though. I'm going to be watching for it, among other reasons... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 13:41:05 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine` Site At 9:00 PM -0600 3/8/98, rainmaker wrote: >I just visited the In Nomine website and I am not quite sure what it is. >Is it a card game? Like Magic or something? In my gaming history, RPG can >mean a lot of things. Or is it a playable chat or a MUD? If so, how do I >connect? It's a role-playing game, not a card game or a MUD. (Though some people do play it on MUSHs and whatnot.) You get a character, you roll dice to determine results (if the GM tells you to), and wander around getting your character into entertaning trouble. Check out: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/GamingWarStories/GamingWarStories.html for links to a number of In Nomine game logs (see the "other sites" section, at the bottom of the page). I particularly reccomend http://homepages.tcp.co.uk/~maya/nomine/fiat.html which is played by several entertaining people in a MUSH room, and has many great lines and scenes. Including the most recent, which had a *very* well-timed Divine Intervention! (They were overdue for one, what with the Elohite of Judgment getting a 666 (invernal intervention) to resist the lies of the Balseraph of the Game, previously!) Check out http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine and click on some of the book-links -- those might give you more hints as to whether or not you'd be interested in having your local gaming store order the book for you. (Many of the books have exerpts on the pages associated with them!) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 13:34:48 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> IN INWO CotW #1 At 2:50 AM +0000 3/9/98, Sam Kington wrote: >Card of the Wack >================ >Malakim of Eli >Graphic: A well-built, scruffy man holding an entire urban gang at bay >with a banana, held threateningly. >Quote:"Oh my god, he just peeled it! Now he's got *two* weapons!" - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 13:55:26 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Slaughter Humans & Disonant Actions At 1:28 PM +0000 3/9/98, PD Andrews wrote: > The subtle machinations of Maplhas are now apparent, a differing of >opinions has occurred. > What happens when a superior *orders* an underling to do something that >would normally generate dissonance? Does the fact it is an order overide >the dissonance, or do they be nice and immediately remove it, or does it >depend on the order? Evil smile. Yes. Well. It depends... With few exceptions (such as invoking the "when it's your choice" clause for Malakim), messing with Choir/Band nature will cause dissonance. If the Superior is feeling nice, then he or she may remove it. Whenever he or she feels like it. If he or she feels like it. You get the picture. > Examples: >A Malakite of Gabriel is ordered by gabriel to punish (kill) a human. On >meeting human, malakite finds him to be the most noble, self-sacrificing, >kind and caring person he has ever encountered. Normally this would cause >the malakite to gain dissonance if he killed him?..... I don't think Malakim take dissonant from killing the noble, though of course they wouldn't enjoy it. (Unless they'd sworn a vow.) OTOH, a *Mercurian* of Gabriel, ordered to kill a human (not just "punish," but "do violence to") would either: 1: take dissonance from killing the human or 2: have to explain to Gabriel why he didn't do it, and take whatever punishement for diobedience she decided to dish out. Dissonance, Discord, whatever. >An ofanite of (doesn't matter!) is 'restrained' because a superior orders >him to remain at point X, or place himself in the custody of X, who >restrains him. That would probably protect the Ofanite -- it's inaction in the face of compulsion. I.e., if they were told to remain standing in one place, and saw that they could do something proper (save a human?) but they'd have to move... They might become dissonant for obedience, but with the exception of Laurence's lot, they'd just have to deal with the Superior's annoyance. (Larry's lot take dissonance for disobeying the letter *or* spirit of his orders!) >A seraph is ordered to tell a human that the sky is red! WHONG! Dissonance. But if he's not a Laurencian, he only gets his Superior mad at him, instead of taking dissonance for disobeying. >A cherub is ordered to kill/destroy the object of his attunement (without >removing it, just in case...) WHONG! Dissonance, but same thing as above regarding dissonance for not obeying. >You'll notice the examples are choir resonances, I am assuming that if your >superior orders you to break his/her dissonance conditions then no ill >effect occcurs? It depends on the dissonance conditions. Some, yes, if the Superior orders it, you can do it safely. Others... The Superior will be more likely to remove the dissonance. Probably. >As a bad exampple: Michael, it is dissonant for angels of war to retreat >from a fight, unless ordered to do so by a superior That's in the clause. >Does the superior mean any angel of higher rank within 'your' organisation, >or your superior only, or any superior? I'd say "The person you are following the orders of -- those of higher rank than you in your organization, and anybody Distincted in other organizations (unless you have previous orders against it)." Or something like that. They'd pay attention to a Vassal of the Sword, for instance, but I don't think even a Master of Judgment could call them to heel -- unless they really really knew they were about to be toasted and *wanted* that signal to retreat. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 14:11:45 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Lilith At 8:54 AM -0500 3/9/98, Emily Dresner wrote: >In my wonderous universe (ha HA!) Lilith gives birth to Lilim, one at a >time, unless she's carrying twins, which does happen from time to time. >She gets together with a partner, and through various means, from sex to >more bizarre, esoteric methods, the partner coughs up a handful of forces >and Lilith naturally does the rest. She spots her children 9 Geas/3, 1 >geas for every month she carries the child to term. [...] It occurs to me that, in your universe, you might want to kick canon a little more and make those Geas/4's, one month per month spent wandering around with fun biochemistry effects, not to mention having to go to the bathroom in the last trimester... (But Song of Celestial Motion to teleport the little dears out sounds like a good idea to me...) >That, and when you're a PC and Dominic turns out to be your Dad... Oh. Oh *my*.... So *that's*... Oh. Em, you're twisted. I like you. At 9:51 AM -0500 3/9/98, Emily Dresner wrote: >On the other hand, I don't have too many clueless wide eyed Lilim, >either. Not that they don't exist, it's just that by the time anyone gets >to them, even the youngest has had some sort of education and >world experiences to get them started. Although the image of baby Lilim >having a baby Balseraph to play with has stuck in my head >quasi-permenantly. Be AFRAID! I thought it was little cuddly teddy-Djinn who lie around and let the baby Lilim pet them and cuddle them and dress them up for tea parties... And the Djinn *Need* all that attention, so... "Oh, look! How sweet! she's got her first Geas!" (Me, I favor a "time consuming work of art", with a few other tricks... But Em's version has much to reccomend it.) At 10:40 AM -0500 3/9/98, Emily Dresner wrote: >> I'll say, especially since the number of parents is arbitrary (so >> long as there is one Superior) and there are no sexes, but there >> *are* fourteen or so "species" or "breeding strains" (bands and >> choirs) to consider. > >Woo hoo! Confusion abounds! Luckily, there are no cross-breeds. Either >you are of that Band/Choir, or you aren't. (Though you can "cross-breed" with different Band/Choirs, in official canon (not in Em's, IIRC? Unless you're a Lilim..). But it comes out as *one* Band/Choir, not a mixture of 2-14!) >> Bad genealogists wind up in Kronos' record room, where they are >> set to composing the family trees of Heaven and Hell. > >And they're only allowed to use old DOS-based Freeware apps to do the >databases, they don't get access to the Social Security death index, >and they have to scan in pictures with a hand scanner from the early 80's. >:) Bah! They have to use inkwells and parchment, and trace the pictures with tracing paper! *Thick* tracing paper! >[I do genealogies for my family.] [Run! Hide!] - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 14:17:31 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> IN INWO CotW #3 At 11:43 AM -0500 3/9/98, Dan Ozdowski wrote: >According to Sam Kington: > >> >> Elohim of Gabriel >> Alignments:Straight >> Power 2 Resistance 5 >> Control arrows: In: (T) Out: > >What happened on the alignments and attributes on this one? >All the others have "angelic" as an attribute but not this >one? Also, why does an Elohite have any alignments? I would >think that an elohite would especially NOT have alignments >because they indicate a general bias in behavioral trends. >Although, I guess you could have "dissonant angel of" cards >too... Actually, Elohim *are* allowed to have biases -- if #1: they do not change the Symphony for the Elohite's selfish whim (the red boxers or the green ones today? Ah, I like red, whatever.), or #2: the bias is because of their Word and/or that of their Superior. They see the universe through Word-colored glasses. An Elohite of War will react differently to a situation than an Elohite of Flowers... It causes an Elohite of Laurence no dissonance to obey Larry's orders, even if those orders are obviously subjective, for instance. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 14:13:50 -0500 From: Sean Michael Whipkey Subject: Re: IN> Slaughter Humans & Disonant Actions At 16:28 +0000 3/9/98, Steve Jessop wrote: >Basically, an angel of Michael, once they start fighting, needs a higher >ranked angel to 'rescue' them if sound tactics dictate that they should >retreat (to prepared defensive positions, perhaps). I take that as the difference between "retreat" and "pulling back". If you retreat, you leave the battle, trying to escape. If you're merely pulling back, you may be losing ground, but you're not dropping contact with the enemy; you're simply trying to regain the advantage through a change in scenery. For example, in one of Harold Coyle's books (IIRC), there's one point where the tank platoon is in a defensive position. When the enemy gets too close (yet has been chewed up nicely by the M1s), they pull back to a secondary position. That's not retreat. When the enemy finally takes enough casualties and comes back the way they came, attempting to escape the counterattacking M1s, that's retreat. All MHO, of course, YMMV. SeanMike - -- Sean Michael Whipkey, smw4s@virginia.edu Weldon Cooper Center for Public Service, Publications Div. 804/924-4185 (or -4188) voicenet, 804/982-5536 fax http://www.virginia.edu/~cpserv/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 14:01:12 -0500 From: Nana Yaw Ofori Subject: Re: IN> Slaughter Humans & Disonant Actions At 8:28 AM -0500 3/9/98, PD Andrews wrote:ē >Dear All, > > The subtle machinations of Maplhas are now apparent, a differing of >opinions has occurred. > What happens when a superior *orders* an underling to do something that >would normally generate dissonance? Does the fact it is an order overide >the dissonance, or do they be nice and immediately remove it, or does it >depend on the order? IMO, if a Superior orders an angel to do something Dissonant, and doesn't have some ulterior motive to make the Angel fall, I'd think it's pretty much assumed that the Superior will remove that Dissonance next time they meet. Ordering your Servitors to do things that stand a chance of making them Fall is a good way to stock up on Dominican(tm) Scrutiny. (Nine out of ten Redeemed Demons prefer Dominican Scrutiny! The inquisition so good, Triads ask for it by name!) And to compound things, in most cases, disobeying your Superior's orders isn't automatically Dissonant. It's definately not healthy, though. > > Examples: >A Malakite of Gabriel is ordered by gabriel to punish (kill) a human. On >meeting human, malakite finds him to be the most noble, self-sacrificing, >kind and caring person he has ever encountered. Normally this would cause >the malakite to gain dissonance if he killed him?..... Why? Malakim don't exactly have to be nice, and they can freely kill people they find honorable. They may not like it, but they can, unless one of their Oaths prevent it. And if he doesn't take the person out in the required time, then he's got Dissonance coming, Dissonance Gabriel isn't likely to remove. > >An ofanite of (doesn't matter!) is 'restrained' because a superior orders >him to remain at point X, or place himself in the custody of X, who >restrains him. If you don't want an Ofanite to do something the ofanite really does want to do, you pretty much have to restrain them physically. In which case, the Ofanite won't gain Dissonance for trying his utmost to do the deed. Assuming he doesn't escape. > >A seraph is ordered to tell a human that the sky is red! Well, sometimes it is... > >A cherub is ordered to kill/destroy the object of his attunement (without >removing it, just in case...) That's just mean... > >You'll notice the examples are choir resonances, I am assuming that if your >superior orders you to break his/her dissonance conditions then no ill >effect occcurs? I'd think this is far less likely than your superior ordering you to break with your Choir Dissonance. But if it does happen, I think the same stipulations apply: Next time you see your Superior, if things did go well, the Dissonance will be removed. These kinds of missions are much more likely to be assigned to "In Service To" Angels, rather than the regular Servitors. > >As a bad exampple: Michael, it is dissonant for angels of war to retreat >from a fight, unless ordered to do so by a superior > >Does the superior mean any angel of higher rank within 'your' organisation, >or your superior only, or any superior? > Anybody Michael designates as your CO, or anybody your CO designates as higher-ranking than you, in my opinion. >other options? > >Paul, dissonant servitor of apathy, Oops I *did* something... > >(Could I suggest lecture theatres as potential apathetic tethers? Nothing >much seems to happen in them.....Oops, and again!) Sure, go ahead. Ralph doesn't care. \|=) = http://www.io.com/~beholder ===================== nofori@pop3.utoled.edu === Nana-Yaw "The Fish" Ofori, Freelance Soldier of Heck, presenty serving Florence, Lilim Captain of The War, the Demon of Field Hospitals. ===== ><{{"> ============ "Life's a Fish, then you Fry." ======= <"}}>< ====== ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 14:44:27 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine` Site > http://homepages.tcp.co.uk/~maya/nomine/fiat.html > which is played by several entertaining people in a MUSH room, > and has many great lines and scenes. Including the most recent, > which had a *very* well-timed Divine Intervention! (They were > overdue for one, what with the Elohite of Judgment getting a 666 > (invernal intervention) to resist the lies of the Balseraph of > the Game, previously!) Ahem. The demon in the room has a DIFFERENT opinion on that whole 'Yeah, Dominic showed up, how COOL!' thing. Especially after said demon had accidently made some comment about tieing an Elohite to the bed on the phone - to said Elohite's Boss. Next time, I'll ask who it is before I start getting humorous. But it was funny at the time. Kobal will be distributing cookies. :) (I love you BOSS!) - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 14:49:12 -0500 From: Nana Yaw Ofori Subject: IN> Re: Announcement! At 7:15 PM -0500 3/9/98, Revenant wrote: >Incidentally, has anyone out there come up with a good fantasy term >for 'sentients' ? I'm partial to Earthdawn's "Namegivers", myself... = http://www.io.com/~beholder ===================== nofori@pop3.utoled.edu === Nana-Yaw "The Fish" Ofori, Freelance Soldier of Heck, presenty serving Florence, Lilim Captain of The War, the Demon of Field Hospitals. ===== ><{{"> ============ "Life's a Fish, then you Fry." ======= <"}}>< ====== ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 14:51:07 -0500 From: Nana Yaw Ofori Subject: IN> Re: Announcement! Oop ack! Sorry 'bout that. Wrong mailing list. = http://www.io.com/~beholder ===================== nofori@pop3.utoled.edu === Nana-Yaw "The Fish" Ofori, Freelance Soldier of Heck, presenty serving Florence, Lilim Captain of The War, the Demon of Field Hospitals. ===== ><{{"> ============ "Life's a Fish, then you Fry." ======= <"}}>< ====== ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 15:06:00 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Lilith > >In my wonderous universe (ha HA!) Lilith gives birth to Lilim, one at a > >time, unless she's carrying twins, which does happen from time to time. > >She gets together with a partner, and through various means, from sex to > >more bizarre, esoteric methods, the partner coughs up a handful of forces > >and Lilith naturally does the rest. She spots her children 9 Geas/3, 1 > >geas for every month she carries the child to term. [...] > > It occurs to me that, in your universe, you might want to kick canon > a little more and make those Geas/4's, one month per month spent > wandering around with fun biochemistry effects, not to mention > having to go to the bathroom in the last trimester... (But Song > of Celestial Motion to teleport the little dears out sounds like > a good idea to me...) Yes, I have considered that change in the system, and it would probably be fair and work out. Or making them Geas/5 for the last three months just out of _spite_. :) Or say that the gestation period for a Lilim is nine weeks, instead of nine months, but then that defeats the purpose of Lilith being (quasi) human. > >That, and when you're a PC and Dominic turns out to be your Dad... > > Oh. Oh *my*.... So *that's*... Oh. > Em, you're twisted. I like you. > *beam* I'm LOVED! ... and no, I'm not redeeming. Shoo. > >On the other hand, I don't have too many clueless wide eyed Lilim, > >either. Not that they don't exist, it's just that by the time anyone gets > >to them, even the youngest has had some sort of education and > >world experiences to get them started. Although the image of baby Lilim > >having a baby Balseraph to play with has stuck in my head > >quasi-permenantly. Be AFRAID! > > I thought it was little cuddly teddy-Djinn who lie around and let > the baby Lilim pet them and cuddle them and dress them up for tea > parties... > > And the Djinn *Need* all that attention, so... "Oh, look! How sweet! > she's got her first Geas!" > But I liked the Baby Bal! It was such a goofy concept, and it was so cute... Yes, it was little cuddly teddy-Djinn who allow themselves to be cuddled by little Lilim who are just learning how to geas. Since Djunn need all that attenion to those they have attuned to, it worked out well. And sort of sick and twisted. But well. > (Me, I favor a "time consuming work of art", with a few other tricks... > But Em's version has much to reccomend it.) > True. It depends on if one sees Lilith as sort of a mirror to Eli, the Creator of Life, the Master of the Golem and she who creates Lilim in her own image, or if she is more of a human, who is living the eternal Human life and never lost the gifts given to her by God. As I have said, both views have merit. > At 10:40 AM -0500 3/9/98, Emily Dresner wrote: > >> I'll say, especially since the number of parents is arbitrary (so > >> long as there is one Superior) and there are no sexes, but there > >> *are* fourteen or so "species" or "breeding strains" (bands and > >> choirs) to consider. > > > >Woo hoo! Confusion abounds! Luckily, there are no cross-breeds. Either > >you are of that Band/Choir, or you aren't. > > (Though you can "cross-breed" with different Band/Choirs, in official > canon (not in Em's, IIRC? Unless you're a Lilim..). But it comes out > as *one* Band/Choir, not a mixture of 2-14!) No no no, you can interbreed. You just don't get a cross breed, ie, a Mix. You don't get a half Impudite and half Djinn. You either get an Impudite or a Djinn. And Lilim can never produce Lilim. > >> Bad genealogists wind up in Kronos' record room, where they are > >> set to composing the family trees of Heaven and Hell. > > > >And they're only allowed to use old DOS-based Freeware apps to do the > >databases, they don't get access to the Social Security death index, > >and they have to scan in pictures with a hand scanner from the early 80's. > >:) > > Bah! They have to use inkwells and parchment, and trace the pictures > with tracing paper! *Thick* tracing paper! I don't think you've ever used old DOS-based Freeware genealogy Apps. The word 'Vapulan' come to mind. Or an old hand scanner, for that matter. Yeeeek. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 12:17:31 -0800 From: jasonw@cylink.com (Jason Williams) Subject: RE: IN> Slaughter Humans & Disonant Actions On Monday, March 09, 1998 11:14 AM, Sean Michael Whipkey [SMTP:smw4s@virginia.edu] wrote: ...Snip... > If you're merely pulling back, you may be losing ground, but you're not > dropping contact with the enemy; you're simply trying to regain the > advantage through a change in scenery. > > For example, in one of Harold Coyle's books (IIRC), there's one point where > the tank platoon is in a defensive position. When the enemy gets too close > (yet has been chewed up nicely by the M1s), they pull back to a secondary > position. That's not retreat. > > When the enemy finally takes enough casualties and comes back the way they > came, attempting to escape the counterattacking M1s, that's retreat. Just for the record, I think this was Red Storm Rising - Tom Clancy.. Jason jasonw@cylink.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 14:17:23 -0600 (CST) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Lilith >At 8:54 AM -0500 3/9/98, Emily Dresner wrote: >(Though you can "cross-breed" with different Band/Choirs, in official >canon (not in Em's, IIRC? Unless you're a Lilim..). But it comes out >as *one* Band/Choir, not a mixture of 2-14!) o/~ Lilim, don't let your gremlings grow up to be Balseraphs... }:-{D Redneck Kris Overstreet, web pages beyond belief http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck - Redneck Gaijin Online http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ - White Lightning Productions http://www.antarctic-press.com/ - Antarctic Press Web Site http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/acupunct/ - Anatomical Acupuncture http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/dvpbem/ - In Nomine: Dark Victory PBEM http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/milkmaid/ - The Magnificent Milkmaid ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 15:21:38 -0500 (EST) From: Eslin Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine` Site On Mon, 9 Mar 1998, Emily Dresner wrote: > > http://homepages.tcp.co.uk/~maya/nomine/fiat.html > > which had a *very* well-timed Divine Intervention! (They were > Ahem. The demon in the room has a DIFFERENT opinion on that whole 'Yeah, > Dominic showed up, how COOL!' thing. Especially after said demon had > accidently made some comment about tieing an Elohite to the bed on the > phone - to said Elohite's Boss. Next time, I'll ask who it is before I > start getting humorous. The Cherub in the room also had a different opinion on that one, man. Especially after said Cherub had (like an UTTER FOOL) attuned to said demon not two hours earlier. Chephirah is still in shock that she got out of THAT one without collecting dissonance, oh yes... :) -- eslin@buffnet.net / Chephirah, Cherub of Destiny ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #669 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.