From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Mar 11 21:27:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA17391 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 21:27:28 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id UAA11461 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 20:53:17 -0600 Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 20:53:17 -0600 Message-Id: <199803120253.UAA11461@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #674 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, March 11 1998 Volume 01 : Number 674 In this digest: Re: IN> Seven Players!!!! IN> Re: Herding clueless PCs Re: IN> Re: IN- Re: IN> Seven Players!!!! Re: IN> In Nomine Flavor IN> mailing list Re: IN> Seven Players!!!! Re: IN> Herding clueless PCs Re: IN> Seven Players!!!! Re: IN> Herding clueless PCs IN> Anyone able to help this guy? Re: IN> In Nomine Flavor IN> IN-Buddhist In Nomine Re: IN> In Nomine Flavor IN> IN-Buddhist In Nomine Re: IN> Lilith Re: IN> In Nomine Flavor IN> Re: IN- Herding clueless PCs Re: IN> Re: IN- Herding clueless PCs Re: IN> Re: IN- Herding clueless PCs WoD Angst (Re: IN> In Nomine Flavor) Re: IN> Re: IN- Herding clueless PCs Re: WoD Angst (Re: IN> In Nomine Flavor) Re: IN> Herding clueless PCs ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 13:25:47 -0600 From: tom timberlake Subject: Re: IN> Seven Players!!!! Ad. wrote: > > Seven players, somebody has seven players! Arg, I pity them > I prefer 3 or 4 as the two perfect group sizes. Five and six tend to get > hectic and there is invariably a couple of players left out. Two has > problems due to lack of ideas and far less oportunity for inter-playery > stuff. > I couldn't handle seven. > > Well, I'm off to finish off preparation for tonight's game... {sarcasm on/} Only seven?! Pikers!!! {/off sarcasm} I just want to know when y'all are gonna' be sending the guys in the white coats for me. You see, when _everybody_ shows up, I have about 15-18 Werewolves to run for on Friday nights! Be happy you only have seven. Do you know how long it takes to run 1 combat round with 15 werewolves, most of whom get multiple actions in a single round??? It's obscene!! tom timberlake, envying someone running for 7 players ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 15:07:54 EST From: Mideval Subject: IN> Re: Herding clueless PCs I've had the same problem. Both as a player and a GM, it's very frustrating to say the least. Communication with the players or GM is the key, dice throwing requires good aim and usually results in multiple contusions, ticked-off players/GM and lost dice! When ever I run a campaign I like to help the other players during character creation. This lets me control the min/max syndrome and lets me get a feel for the character so that I can tailor parts of the chronicle to the character's background. This lets the players feel that their characters are more 'personally' involved in the story/chronicle, instead of using the "Well your Superior sends you here and you better follow orders." technique. As for players not being able to find obvious clues in front of their face, it's In Nomine, have them read the writing on the wall. That's what I'd call intervention, heh heh! :) Hope this post helps, I'm goin back to hiding in the shadows of this list. :) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 06:28:00 +1000 From: "Patrick O'Duffy" Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- > Me too! Must be an Australian thing (is that why the INWO card for > Australia is "conservative"?) > > I have enough trouble tailoring modules for Australia (I ran "No Dinero" > set in Redfern, Sydney - it translated quite well). Fortunately, IN > lends itself to jetsetting characters (I'm going to leave "Feast of > Blades" set in the US). Roles, however, can tie a character to a > particular locale - unless they're an "international spy", or their role > takes a vacation. I thought about adapting "No Dinero" to Brisbane, but rapidly gace up on it. This town just doesn't have the right feel for it. I've written only the one IN adventure so far, and I set that in Brisbane. It's running quite nicely, but it does seem to operate on a smaller scale than the stuff I see on the list and in the published books. If I were to run a long-term campaign of IN (which isn't very likely), I'd probably set it in New Orleans, just for a change... - -- Patrick O'Duffy, Brisbane, Australia On weekends I send sick photographs To the ladies in my residential neighbourhood That's my way of expressing something MISERY LOVES CO., "Two Seconds" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 15:33:08 -0500 From: Jesse Subject: Re: IN> Seven Players!!!! >Do you know how long it takes to run 1 combat round with 15 >werewolves, most of whom get multiple actions in a single round??? It's >obscene!! 45-50 mintues of actual playing time. About an hour including all the breaks and non game time. - -Jesse ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 12:52:30 +0500 From: daiv@cruzio.com (David M. Barr) Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Flavor [snip] >I have to admit, though, I remember when Vampire: the Masquerade first came >out. It was awesome. I thought it was innovative, suspenseful, and just >full of story possibilities. A little too pretentious even then, but it was >a groundbreaking RPG. I saw a lot of potential. Having seen where the World >of Darkness has gone since then, I can only pray that the same fate does >not befall In Nomine. On the other hand, the WoD is still one of the best >selling RPG lines of all time. Go figure -- maybe flavor is more important >than clarity of writing and internal consistency, when it comes to >marketability. > >-David Nah, you just have to buy everything to figure out whats going on; White wolf spotted a trend and was able to find a way to ride that trend, really well. Great style, spotty substance. In our culture, that is generally enough. In nomne, spotty style, generally excellent substance. at very least, a lot of attention is paid to making it consistent, and acknowledging when it's screwed up. And, If nothing else, it s nowhere nearly so pretentiously angst ridden. but thats just me. Frankly, the thing is, the substance is waht makes the game playable, and the style is what makes people want to play the game. A good GM can do a lot more with spotty style, (which is really subjective anyway) than with bad substance (which is also subjective, but I think there is less variations tihin that (pure assumption)) - -Daiv ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 15:51:24 EST From: DizzieKid Subject: IN> mailing list ummm... could i be put on the mailing list? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 16:00:45 -0500 (EST) From: Wildcard Subject: Re: IN> Seven Players!!!! On Wed, 11 Mar 1998, Jesse wrote: > >Do you know how long it takes to run 1 combat round with 15 > >werewolves, most of whom get multiple actions in a single round??? It's > >obscene!! > > 45-50 mintues of actual playing time. About an hour including all the > breaks and non game time. About three hours if the werewolves' players are: a) mostly on their way to being drunk; b) in need of nicotine in mass amounts, all at once; c) sleep-deprived as hell; d) not quite sure what the hell they're doing and therefore split into two to four parties... Yes, I was in this game. Not surprisingly, it took three hours to break up, too (it was a late-night con gaming-room takeover). *shudder* > -Jesse WC ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 21:06:56 +0000 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: IN> Herding clueless PCs At 12:55 11/03/98 -0500, you wrote: >On Wed, 11 Mar 1998, Emily Dresner wrote: > >> I have two kinds of plot points - Event Triggers and Time Triggers. > >I hae these, too. The only problem is, the PCs don't seem to get -any- of >the Event triggers on their own initiative. If it weren't for >Interventions and cards (I've imported Torg Drama Deck cards into the game), >they wouldn't get anywhere at all. > I think this is where GM style comes into it a bit. I use some 'event triggers' (I usually think of them more as encounters though -- but some are more random than others) and some 'timed events', but usually they are strictly timed. More a case of 'X will happen before Y, which will follow quite shortly afterwards'. But since I'm an unredeemed dramatist, and I like to run my games in a sort of co-operative storytelling mode, all of those events are subject in practice, to what I think will make for the best and most dramatic story, given what PCs have actually done or show signs of wanting to do. So theres a certain amount of planning, but I won't know precisely what is going to happen until the plan has made contact (pref not explosive) with the players. If things need to happen in a specific order then they will, but the actual timing may be subject to alteration. Then after the session I can rethink the backstory plotlines (ie. what the shadowy NPCs are doing on the major timelines) and decide how that might need to alter given current events. ie. Triggers are good, and definitely useful but winging it is also a very useful skill, I find. Sometimes we even come up with plot hooks I hadn't thought of, which turn out to be easily woven into the story during my planning sessions afterwards. If PCs miss an event you think would have been fun, then there is no rule that says the event can't come to them instead. I know some people might see this as the GM 'cheating' with the plot -- but I say that if you can cheat so smoothly that no-one ever notices then go for it! I also completely agree with whoever mentioned talking to players during character generation. Some people are really good at coming to you with pretty much detailed characters, complete with 40K history (to which I say 'great!' and hope they don't expect me to memorise it all at once), but others are better at picking out character concepts when they can discuss things and bounce ideas around. A sneaky GM will do this over lunch or something, and be keeping an eye out for when characters come up in discussion and one or more of the players seems to brighten and get a bit more enthusiastic when talking about it ;) IMO it isn't that important that a character is totally fleshed out at game start if the player is enthusiastic and has a good grasp of at least one good angle on it. There is plenty of time for that as you progress. If you can see that a player really isn't doing much with their character then I think its quite reasonable to ask them if they are enjoying themselves. If they are then you can do the gallic shrug thing and give them an NPC to look after. If it is just that the player doesn't get it, then it might be worth finding some time pre or post game to start a discussion with everyone on the different character types and just throw some ideas around. Good luck tho... (I suppose this is on topic?) jo - ---------- "I like getting into hot water, it keeps me clean." G. K. Chesterton jhart@btinternet.com -- http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~jhart/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 15:33:58 +0000 From: "Patrick Chester" Subject: Re: IN> Seven Players!!!! > >Do you know how long it takes to run 1 combat round with 15 > >werewolves, most of whom get multiple actions in a single round??? It's > >obscene!! > > 45-50 mintues of actual playing time. About an hour including all the > breaks and non game time. Eww... reminds me of a Battletech Mechwarrior campaign I was in several years ago. Took forever for the nigh-Munchkin players to decide where each of their Mech's weapons were going to be shot at. So many medium lasers, so few targets. :-P (Oddly, the NPC tanks, infantry and artillery didn't take that much time to move/shoot. Just people with custom Mechs, lotsa weapons and too, TOO much time on their hands.) ObIN: I'm sure Vapula would have been proud of some of the modifications. :-) - -- Patrick Chester (aka: claypigeon, Sinapus) wolfone@io.com "Well Jim, that proves it. The Universe not made up of an endless vacuum of eternal nothingness like we once believed. The Universe is in fact made up of Fabio." -Cape Carbunkle bunch at work. :-) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 16:37:20 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Herding clueless PCs Jo Hart wrote: > I think this is where GM style comes into it a bit. One element of style is whether the GM is a "dramatist," as Jo calls it, or less directed. When I do the GMing, I have a clear plot in mind. Usually, the PCs get pointed toward a clear goal ("save the world," "rescue person X") and get occasional signs reading "This Way to the Main Plot" thrust on them. Of course, I try to avoid the extreem of "railroading." A friend of mine, who is quite a good GM, takes the other approach and, having established the environment and the probelm, lets us rattle around with little additional guidance. I'm pretty sure we find up looking clueless to him, and occasionally we get frustrated. On the other hand, we are in no danger at all of being "railroaded" and he is good at thinking on his feet, so when we wander into the unexpected byways, he comes up with reasonably interesting responses most of the time. This means it can be hard to tell whether or not you are making progress toward the goal, which I suppose is a realistic element. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 17:11:35 -0500 (EST) From: Wildcard Subject: IN> Anyone able to help this guy? Just saw this on Usenet... From: Black Hawk Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: In Nomine LARP Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 13:54:01 +0100 Hello from the darkness, I am a ins-mv master from Spain, and I would like to know if [WC's note: my newsreader cut the line; insert "there is"] a ins-mv larp anywhere in the world. I want to prepare one this summer so if there are other games I would like to notice it in order to recopilate information about how to manage it. Thank you. Tony "Black Hawk" Valle i52vagaa@lucano.uco.es Cordoba, Spain ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 16:27:27 -0600 From: John L Veazey Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Flavor >screwed up. And, If nothing else, it s nowhere nearly so pretentiously >angst ridden. Yes, THANK GOD it's less angst ridden. Vz ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 17:58:03 -0500 From: Jesse Subject: IN> IN-Buddhist In Nomine Buddhist In Nomine Here it is. Some where it got awful gnostic I think. Note that this document takes many liberties with the In Nomine games and the Buddhist religion. For this document the word truth reefers to the Buddhist philosophy, esp. the four Noble Truths, that self is the master of self, nonviolence and hat letting emotion rule your mind and actions. This truth is assumed to be the ultimate truth and the best thing for mankind. The Four Noble Truths: 1. Conditioned states (most life) are unsatisfactory. 2. This misery has a cause. 3. This misery has an end. 4. There is a way to end this misery through the 8 fold path. Conditioned states reefers primarily to the conditioned desired for pleasure, socialized into most of humanity. Most beings involved in the celestial war see it as two sided, good versus evil or self versus community. Actually the war is two sided, but not in the way most celestials think because God and Lucifer are working together to stop the spread of truth. Both God and Lucifer desire power through souls which they can only obtain through fettering the souls to their auses. A very few souls freed from this competition know the true structure of the universe. Whether or not God and Lucifer know they are orking together is an exercise left up to the GMs. God works to obtain souls by acting in a superficially good manner towards humanity. The angelic side of the war grants men pleasure, conditions men into desiring pleasure and works to socialize men into prostrating themselves before others, specifically religious figures and deities. In doing so God pulls mankind away from the truth of the universe and into God's heavens, where the angels can siphon off the essence of men for their cause. If someone dies believing primary in the pursuit of pleasure and the obeying of authorities, masters, and deities, then God receives the souls. Lucifer also works to obtain souls and their essence, but in a different manner. Lucifer's demons work to create pain, misery and violence on Earth. In doing so the demons condition man to avoid pain and be violent as well. This pulls man away from the truth and if someone dies with their primary goal being violence or the avoidance of pain, Lucifer gets their soul. Most of the souls which are not claimed by God or Lucifer are reincarnated. A very few are enlightened. Enlightenment frees the soul from the cycle of reincarnation and requires complete control over the mind and body and a total commitment to the truth of the universe. Traditionally the Enlightened are very rare although YMMV. The control of one's mind takes a long, long time and is very hard to accomplish. Just as there are very few mortals who are enlightened, there are some celestials who work to enlighten man. Because of their natures there are less of these enlightened celestials than enlightened mortals. These celestials work to spread the truth to all mankind, and to counter the actions of their former comrades. Superiors: In general the Superiors of In Nomine work against man by either increasing the amount of worldly pleasure and worship on earth or by increasing the pain and violence on earth, depending on the side. A few are worthy of mention though. Yves: I see two different optional views of Yves. On the one hand he may be, along with Michael, the director of the angelic actions on earth. In this way he may come across as a kindly gentleman, but his heart is as black as coal. Alternatively, Yves may know and work for the truth. In this case he has very little to do with the day to day operations of the Host but works to convince them to come and work for the truth. Eli: Somewhere on his earthly travel Eli may have meet an enlightened human and followed him. This could be the very reason why he is a pariah in Heaven. Eli may just be working for Heaven's cause on his own, though. Choirs & Bands: Seraphim: The Seraphim can correctly see the truth of the symphony on a check digit of 6 on their resonance. This means that they can recognize the flaws of the angelic side but in general cannot do anything about it. The Seraphim are all to often fettered down by their words, dissonance and the angels of Judgement. Cherubim: The Cherubim are rarely enlightened. This may because their nature requires them to become possessive and worldly. Elohim: The Elohim are the closer to the truth in action than any other choir. This is because the nature of Elohim require them to be detracted and uninfluenced by emotion. As a result the Elohim form a plurality amongst enlightened angels. Malakim: In general the Malakim are far to violent to be enlightened, but exceptions occur. Mercurians: These, along with the Impudites, are the most heinous beings in existence. Their sole purpose is to future their master's goals on earth, often at the expense of mankind. Their sociable resonance often helps them accomplish this. Djinn: Like the Elohim, the Djinn try very hard to keep emotions from their actions. This means that more Djinn are enlightened than any other band of demon Calabim: These, like the Malakim, are often far to violent to see the truth. Habbalah: The Habbalah are really bad. Because they use emotions to manipulate people, the Habbalah are a great threat to the enlightenment of man. A few work with the enlightened, but they must not use their resonance. Impudites: See Mercurians, above. Campaign ideas: The PCs could be enlightened celestials, mortals or ethereals working to educate man as to the truth. This would bring them in direct conflict with many other celestials. The PCs could be in an unique celestial agency, perhaps formed of both angels and demons, actively working to stop the enlightenment of man. The PCs could be a bunch of dumb schmuks that get caught up in the whole thing. Feel free to run campaigns and use this document for nonprofit purposes, but do not reprint it for commercial reasons. - -Jesse Rooney ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 18:04:45 -0500 From: Jesse Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Flavor >>screwed up. And, If nothing else, it s nowhere nearly so pretentiously >>angst ridden. > >Yes, THANK GOD it's less angst ridden. I disagree. While the Vampire and Ghost games are full of angst I think that the Werewolf game is great. Personally I enjoy the Werewolf game more than anyother game, including In Nomine. The emotions always seem to run high but at least they do something about it. Maybe it just me, or maybe I've had great storytellers. Unfornutly no one I know agrees that Werewolf is worth playing. - -Jesse ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 18:32:35 -0500 From: Jesse Subject: IN> IN-Buddhist In Nomine This didn;t go through the frist time, let me try again. Major Domo Zone Buddhist In Nomine Here it is. Some where it got awful gnostic I think. Note that this document takes many liberties with the In Nomine games and the Buddhist religion. For this document the word truth reefers to the Buddhist philosophy, esp. the four Noble Truths, that self is the master of self, nonviolence and that letting emotion rule your mind and actions. This truth is assumed to be the ultimate truth and the best thing for mankind. The Four Noble Truths: 1. Conditioned states (most life) are unsatisfactory. 2. This misery has a cause. 3. This misery has an end. 4. There is a way to end this misery through the 8 fold path. Conditioned states reefers primarily to the conditioned desired for pleasure, socialized into most of humanity. Most beings involved in the celestial war see it as two sided, good versus evil or self versus community. Actually the war is two sided, but not in the way most celestials think because God and Lucifer are working together to stop the spread of truth. Both God and Lucifer desire power through souls which they can only obtain through fettering the souls to their causes. A very few souls freed from this competition know the true structure of the universe. Whether or not God and Lucifer know they are working together is an exercise left up to the GMs. God works to obtain souls by acting in a superficially good manner towards humanity. The angelic side of the war grants men pleasure, conditions men into desiring pleasure and works to socialize men into prostrating themselves before others, specifically religious figures and deities. In doing so God pulls mankind away from the truth of the universe and into God's heavens, where the angels can siphon off the essence of men for their cause. If someone dies believing primary in the pursuit of pleasure and the obeying of authorities, masters, and deities, then God receives the souls. Lucifer also works to obtain souls and their essence, but in a different manner. Lucifer's demons work to create pain, misery and violence on Earth. In doing so the demons condition man to avoid pain and be violent as well. This pulls man away from the truth and if someone dies with their primary goal being violence or the avoidance of pain, Lucifer gets their soul. Most of the souls which are not claimed by God or Lucifer are reincarnated. A very few are enlightened. Enlightenment frees the soul from the cycle of reincarnation and requires complete control over the mind and body and a total commitment to the truth of the universe. Traditionally the Enlightened are very rare although YMMV. The control of one's mind takes a long, long time and is very hard to accomplish. Just as there are very few mortals who are enlightened, there are some celestials who work to enlighten man. Because of their natures there are less of these enlightened celestials than enlightened mortals. These celestials work to spread the truth to all mankind, and to counter the actions of their former comrades. Superiors: In general the Superiors of In Nomine work against man by either increasing the amount of worldly pleasure and worship on earth or by increasing the pain and violence on earth, depending on the side. A few are worthy of mention though. Yves: I see two different optional views of Yves. On the one hand he may be, along with Michael, the director of the angelic actions on earth. In this way he may come across as a kindly gentleman, but his heart is as black as coal. Alternatively, Yves may know and work for the truth. In this case he has very little to do with the day to day operations of the Host but works to convince them to come and work for the truth. Eli: Somewhere on his earthly travel Eli may have meet an enlightened human and followed him. This could be the very reason why he is a pariah in Heaven. Eli may just be working for Heaven's cause on his own, though. Choirs & Bands: Seraphim: The Seraphim can correctly see the truth of the symphony on a check digit of 6 on their resonance. This means that they can recognize the flaws of the angelic side but in general cannot do anything about it. The Seraphim are all to often fettered down by their words, dissonance and the angels of Judgement. Cherubim: The Cherubim are rarely enlightened. This may because their nature requires them to become possessive and worldly. Elohim: The Elohim are the closer to the truth in action than any other choir. This is because the nature of Elohim require them to be detracted and uninfluenced by emotion. As a result the Elohim form a plurality amongst enlightened angels. Malakim: In general the Malakim are far to violent to be enlightened, but exceptions occur. Mercurians: These, along with the Impudites, are the most heinous beings in existence. Their sole purpose is to future their master's goals on earth, often at the expense of mankind. Their sociable resonance often helps them accomplish this. Djinn: Like the Elohim, the Djinn try very hard to keep emotions from their actions. This means that more Djinn are enlightened than any other band of demon Calabim: These, like the Malakim, are often far to violent to see the truth. Habbalah: The Habbalah are really bad. Because they use emotions to manipulate people, the Habbalah are a great threat to the enlightenment of man. A few work with the enlightened, but they must not use their resonance. Impudites: See Mercurians, above. Campaign ideas: The PCs could be enlightened celestials, mortals or ethereals working to educate man as to the truth. This would bring them in direct conflict with many other celestials. The PCs could be in an unique celestial agency, perhaps formed of both angels and demons, actively working to stop the enlightenment of man. The PCs could be a bunch of dumb schmuks that get caught up in the whole thing. Feel free to run campaigns and use this document for nonprofit purposes, but do not reprint it for commercial reasons. - -Jesse Rooney ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 18:45:06 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Lilith At 7:33 AM +0100 3/11/98, David Skogsberg wrote: >On Tue, 10 Mar 1998, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >> At 8:27 AM -0500 3/10/98, John J Maurer wrote: >> >> >Speaking of the Biblical thing. There was some suggestion earlier in this >> >thread that spoke of Lilith having to go through labor to keep the numbers >> >down. Apocraphally speaking, the Lilith of stories gave birth to 100 demons >> >every day. I *think* it may have been 200 in some stories (100 Boys and 100 >> >Girls). Thats one busy momma. >> >> Frog eggs. Gotta be. >> >> No, I am *not* following that mental image to the logical conclusion, >> I am NOT. > >Little green tadpoles? Your mind is ever so much cleaner than mine. >Now I'm getting images from what'sit'sname, _The Legacy of Heorot_ (Niven, >Pournelle & Barnes) where all the little fishies sprout legs and grow and >grow and _GROW_. And eat people. Um. Yum. Really. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 00:27:03 +0000 (GMT) From: Steve Jessop Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Flavor On Wed, 11 Mar 1998, Jesse wrote: > >Yes, THANK GOD it's less angst ridden. > While the Vampire and Ghost games are full of angst I think that the > Werewolf game is great. Sorry. I may be a lone voice in the wilderness here, but what exactly is wrong with angst? I agree that in any game it can get very pretentious, in a Byronic-Toreador sort of a way, but it doesn't have to. Angst is about conflict within a character. All RPGs include a lot of external conflict. In my opinion, it is the better ones which also provide opportunities to portray a character with a genuine, unique personality, rather than another killing/magic/theiving machine ready to take on the world along with his four trusty comrades. The mistake of V:tM is that it tries to give game mechanics for the 'struggle with the Beast', rather than letting characters and players work it out for themselves. Werewolves have it to easy: Gaia Good. Wyrm Bad. The great opportunity of In Nomine is that *in theory* it should all work out. You act according to your nature, and everything will turn out for the best. Easy. A half-decent GM makes sure that isn't even remotely true. Good players make sure that the GM doesn't even have to work at it. That doesn't mean that characters should all be dissonant, or that they should all wear lace and wail 'woe is me'. They *should* have to make difficult choices at times, and they should know that they are going to live with the consequences. Steve. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 16:27:54 PST From: "David Streeter" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Herding clueless PCs From: Jo Hart >more enthusiastic when talking about it ;) IMO it isn't that important that >a character is totally fleshed out at game start if the player is >enthusiastic and has a good grasp of at least one good angle on it. There >is plenty of time for that as you progress. I totally agree. I *prefer* my characters to be a bit light on in the background department at the start. This allows the personality of the character to be developed in play, and ensures the character reflects the player, rather than trying to force the player to reflect the character. While in acting the goal is for the actor to bring the character to life, in (social) roleplaying the goal is for the player to enjoy playing the character. All else fails, base the character on a character in Star Wars. "OK - you're Luke, He's Ben, she's Leia, he's Han ... who wants to be the Wookie, I mean, Cherub?". It gives them an easy starting point for developing their OWN character. GRIN... Luke - Dissonant Ofanite (too much time stuck on Tatooine :-) Chewy - Cherub Han - Mercurian Obi Wan - Elohite Leia - Malakite Vader - Balseraph SurturZ Dissonant Elohite of Stone ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 19:38:27 -0500 From: Walter Plageman Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Herding clueless PCs fuck all of you, you dumb fucks David Streeter wrote: > From: Jo Hart > >more enthusiastic when talking about it ;) IMO it isn't that important > that > >a character is totally fleshed out at game start if the player is > >enthusiastic and has a good grasp of at least one good angle on it. > There > >is plenty of time for that as you progress. > > I totally agree. I *prefer* my characters to be a bit light on in the > background department at the start. This allows the personality of the > character to be developed in play, and ensures the character reflects > the player, rather than trying to force the player to reflect the > character. While in acting the goal is for the actor to bring the > character to life, in (social) roleplaying the goal is for the player to > enjoy playing the character. > > All else fails, base the character on a character in Star Wars. "OK - > you're Luke, He's Ben, she's Leia, he's Han ... who wants to be the > Wookie, I mean, Cherub?". It gives them an easy starting point for > developing their OWN character. > > GRIN... > > Luke - Dissonant Ofanite (too much time stuck on Tatooine :-) > Chewy - Cherub > Han - Mercurian > Obi Wan - Elohite > Leia - Malakite > > Vader - Balseraph > > SurturZ > Dissonant Elohite of Stone > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 12:27:37 GMT+10 From: "Leath Sheales" <938269@wrpc.riv.csu.edu.au> Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Herding clueless PCs Walter wrote (edited): > f**k all of you, you dumb f**ks What's your problem? Leath. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 18:08:51 -0700 (MST) From: Jason Corley Subject: WoD Angst (Re: IN> In Nomine Flavor) On Wed, 11 Mar 1998, Jesse wrote: > >>screwed up. And, If nothing else, it s nowhere nearly so pretentiously > >>angst ridden. > > > >Yes, THANK GOD it's less angst ridden. > > I disagree. While the Vampire and Ghost games are full of angst See, I disagree strongly with this. Vampire political games, at least when I run them, are -way- short on angst and -way- long on paranoia and strange references to the Nixon Administration. ("But why would the Prince bug himself?" "Because this is a Jason game, that's why.") And in my opinion, Wraith is the second least angsty of the White Wolf games (Changeling is the least.) Here's why: Wraith is about characters doing what they care about --- if they don't do what they care about, if they don't work towards their goals, they start running into some really serious problems. So Wraiths that sit around and moan about how tough it is being dead are gone -like that-. Wraith's Shadows, on the other hand, often want Wraiths to believe they can do nothing. This point of view is the -bad guy- point of view in Wraith. PCs are striving -against it-. At least, if it's done right. And I thought Werewolf was -far- more depressing. I mean, here's a game whose premise is that the PCs are on the losing side of a religious war in which there are no reinforcements, in which there is no hope of ever winning, and in which they might not even be right. Furthermore, they can't even get out of it by dying, since they just get reincarnated and have to start fighting all over again. Talk about angst. Jason ObIN: IN is different because A) "winning" isn't really an option for either side in the war, B) it's not really a religious war, believe it or not, since the participants don't have to take much on faith, and C) it's got a better sense of humor ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 20:05:11 -0500 From: Walter Plageman Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Herding clueless PCs sorry, I'm trying to get kicked off. Leath Sheales wrote: > Walter wrote (edited): > > > f**k all of you, you dumb f**ks > > What's your problem? > > Leath. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 22:11:05 +0900 From: Simon Hailes Subject: Re: WoD Angst (Re: IN> In Nomine Flavor) At 06:08 PM 11/03/98 -0700, you wrote: > >On Wed, 11 Mar 1998, Jesse wrote: > >> >>screwed up. And, If nothing else, it s nowhere nearly so pretentiously >> >>angst ridden. >> > >> >Yes, THANK GOD it's less angst ridden. >> >> I disagree. While the Vampire and Ghost games are full of angst > > >See, I disagree strongly with this. Vampire political games, at least >when I run them, are -way- short on angst and -way- long on paranoia and >strange references to the Nixon Administration. ("But why would the >Prince bug himself?" "Because this is a Jason game, that's why.") And in >my opinion, Wraith is the second least angsty of the White Wolf games >(Changeling is the least.) Here's why: > >Wraith is about characters doing what they care about --- if they don't do >what they care about, if they don't work towards their goals, they start >running into some really serious problems. So Wraiths that sit around and >moan about how tough it is being dead are gone -like that-. Wraith's >Shadows, on the other hand, often want Wraiths to believe they can do >nothing. This point of view is the -bad guy- point of view in Wraith. >PCs are striving -against it-. At least, if it's done right. > >And I thought Werewolf was -far- more depressing. I mean, here's a game >whose premise is that the PCs are on the losing side of a religious war in >which there are no reinforcements, in which there is no hope of ever >winning, and in which they might not even be right. Furthermore, they >can't even get out of it by dying, since they just get reincarnated and >have to start fighting all over again. Talk about angst. > > > >Jason >ObIN: IN is different because A) "winning" isn't really an option for >either side in the war, B) it's not really a religious war, believe it or >not, since the participants don't have to take much on faith, and C) it's >got a better sense of humor > > >You're right, Werewolf is depressing, because unlike nthe others it's based upon real fuck ups in todays society, on the other hand it is my favorite W0d game, because in my game with the help of an unbelievably powerful Shadowlord Ahroun, the Garou are egtting some back, they've already blown up Pentex HQ, and are moving on to the Sabbat, in Werewolf you have clear cut enemies, and you can use all menas necessary to kill them. In Nomine is my present favorite however because it allows for subtle supernatural intrigue as well as full on Celestial combat, in one game you're convincing a Balseraph you're a Balseraph too to infiltate an Infernal Tether, in the next you're a mummy with a minigun wasting saints and soldiers at a Mardi Gras, and oh yeah, Lucifer is one cool dude, how can you not play a game with him in it? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 01:17:27 +0000 From: Julian Breen Subject: Re: IN> Herding clueless PCs > >> I have often discovered that PCs can be utterly clueless when they have >> all the facts sitting right in front of them. :) > >Amen, sister. Which is why a great many of my adventures turn into >rambling affairs of seemingly non-related events as PCs grasp at straws, >the NPCs advance their plans, and I try desperately to involve the two >players who seem hellbent (literally, in the case of the inactive >Ofanite) on becoming lumps on a log. > I sympathise. Recently, my campaign has been going along the same lines as your adventures, Casca! I wonder if the following is of help to anyone with players that 'Just Don't Get It' (tm)? Last Sunday, I got my players together for a discussion on what they thought about the campaign. Recently, they just didn't seem to be getting anywhere in resolving the storylines that they are wrapped up in, and this was frustrating me as a GM. I also wanted to know if (most importantly) they were *enjoying themselves?*. This came about because a couple of my players turn up and - despite attempts by me to involve them - take a back seat, being seemingly content to let the other players carry on. Now I figured that these 'guys' *must* be enjoying themselves because they're always there eagerly for the next session, but hey, it doesn't hurt to ask. From the conversations that followed I was told that as my campaign is highly complicated with subplots, I wasn't really giving them enough time to sort out one thing before throwing another at them. Now; that is part and parcel of how I work as a GM, always has been and always will, yet if this means that my players are not enjoying their game as much as they should be (oh, *I* sure am BTW) then something needs to be done. As I want them to continue to play, and I very much enjoy their imput, I'll change the way I handle things. For instance, I've said that in the next session, the ball is in their court. Instead of me adding more complications, I'll give them time to sort out what they're currently wrestling with (weeellll, I might just add a *teensy* subplot. Or two... Its a _Need_ that I have ). What I'm saying is this. Although a scenario may look clear cut to you as a referee that's because you have the advantage of knowing what's going on in your campaign. I guess it boils down to looking at it from their angle, and if you still can't see how they can continue to miss the Big Picture, then it might take a spate of playing rather than reffing. I myself have refereed almost exclusively for 14 years. Prior to this I was definately a player, but hell, maybe I'm out of touch..? Another thing to consider is why people actually play RPGs? Some like to powergame or rules lawyer, some like *intricate* character background and 'angst' and some merely like to be part of a continuing, entertaining story. They're *happy* taking a back seat and might get somewhat flustered if you push anything other than that upon them. If you don't want this type of player then fine, but be aware that they are out there. Sooo, _Talk to your players, refs :)_ - -- Jules ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #674 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.