From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sat Mar 14 20:06:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA09342 for ; Sat, 14 Mar 1998 20:06:34 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id TAA10182 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sat, 14 Mar 1998 19:27:55 -0600 Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 19:27:55 -0600 Message-Id: <199803150127.TAA10182@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #679 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Saturday, March 14 1998 Volume 01 : Number 679 In this digest: IN> Forests of the Night (part 1) IN> WOD/IN combo world IN> Interview with a Clueless PC (was Herding clueless PCs) Re: IN> Interview with a Clueless PC (was Herding clueless PCs) Re: IN> Discordant Questions Re: IN> Artifact Cost Re: IN> Bodies Re: IN> Interview with a Clueless PC (was Herding clueless PCs) Re: IN> Interview with a Clueless PC (was Herding clueless PCs) Re: IN> Hardcover version of In Nomine ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 00:20:31 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Forests of the Night (part 1) Tiger, Tiger, burning bright In the forests of the night, What immortal hand or eye Could frame thy fearful symmetry? .......... Uluru National Park, Australia "Want a beer?" the Seneschal asked. The two Cherubim who were sitting cross-legged in front of the tiny campfire looked up, as the speaker materialized out of the darkness. He held up a six-pack. "Um. No thank you." The other Cherub also shook his head. The Seneschal shrugged and took a seat next to them, then popped one can open and tilted it back with obvious pleasure. The three of them were sitting atop Ayers Rock. The ancient monolith generated a pleasant thrumming they each felt in the core of their beings, though none as acutely as the Servitor of Stone. They sat for a while in silence, enjoying the ambience of the Tether. Finally, one of the Cherubim gestured at the landscape spread out around them, hundreds of feet below, and asked "Doesn't this bother you?" The Seneschal, whose corporeal vessel was that of a dusty old Aborigine, raised an eyebrow. "What, the people?" "The development," the Cherub said. Electric lights were scattered about the desert landscape. Within line of sight was Yulara Village, a tourism complex built for visitors to the famous landmark in the middle of the Central Australia, and they could hear another plane landing at the nearby airport. "I would think it would offend you, this despoiling and commercialization of such an ancient and sacred site...." The Seneschal chuckled dryly. "The film crews bothered me. So did the litter. I taught a few hikers some harsh lessons in respecting The Rock. But the visitors, the highway, the Four Seasons hotel? To tell you the truth, it was getting lonely out here. Now that the Anangu are managing the Park, there are fewer tourists climbing up here and pissing over the edge. Most visitors are respectful, and filled with wonder at God's creation." He smiled and nodded contentedly. His Tether, his Word, was stronger now than in all the centuries when only the Anangu Aborigines paid it homage. The other Cherub continued staring into the fire. "Is she still unmoving?" the Seneschal asked. He could not see what the two Cherubim did in the flames; an image of a gaunt, dark-haired woman seated at the other end of the two-mile long rock. He could sense her, of course -- she was in his Tether. But he felt it best not to intrude on an Archangel's introspection. "Yes," the Cherub affirmed. "That's common for her. She is probably wandering the Marches." "You don't follow her there?" "Not usually. When she walks the Marches, she is contemplative, not destructive. And our proximity is more intrusive there." "It is not her we are here to protect," the first Cherub, whose name was Aluriel, explained. "Gabriel can take care of herself. We follow her to protect others from her wrath, when it comes upon her." "I see." The Seneschal of Ayers Rock frowned slightly. "Well, this is a good place to go walking about in, on either plane. You are sure she won't wreak havoc in the Marches, though? I would not like to see the Anangu's totems harmed." "I thought the Tether to the Dreamtime was broken here long ago," said the second Cherub, whose name was Mordekial. "It was," the Seneschal replied, somewhat tensely. "But they still linger now and then. I don't go out of my way to hunt down ethereals; they've never caused any harm around here." Mordekial and Aluriel exchanged glances. It was very likely that the Seneschal had befriended the ethereal spirits who once dwelled openly in this place. Then they shrugged together. It was no concern of theirs; they did not serve Judgment, and the Purification Crusade was long past. "Gabriel has never harbored ill will towards the denizens of the Marches, except those who torment humans. If they have no malicious intent, she will not harm them." .......... In what distant deeps or skies Burnt the fire of thine eyes? On what wings dare he aspire? What the hand dare seize the fire? .......... The Marches She was not wrathful. She was not contemplative. She was frantic and mad. Her eyes did not glow, they blazed, as she streaked across the ethereal landscape. Blandine's Tower receded behind her, a softly-glowing beacon of hope and hospitality that she ignored. For a few confusing moments she zipped towards a familiar shape on the skyline, a mountain of fused rock lit dimly from behind by the distant glow of Heaven, and from within by its own primeval fires. Then she veered away. She howled in agony, but could not drown out the cacophonous sounds playing in her own head. She burned a trail across the sky and left Blandine's Marches far behind. Like a celestial meteor that burned what it touched, she plummeted into the Far Marches, running from herself. In her wake, ethereal spirits who had not seen an angel in millennia gaped. And on the outskirts of Heaven, her caldera rumbled, and spewed hot ash. .......... And what shoulder and what art Could twist the sinews of thy heart? And, when thy heart began to beat, What dread hand and what dread feet? What the hammer? What the chain? In what furnace was thy brain? What the anvil? What dead grasp Dare its deadly terrors clasp? .......... Gabriel has been unstable for a long time. It started after the Fall, when her Servitor, Belial, was granted her Word by Lucifer. Forced to share a Word with a Demon Prince whose nature is anathema to her own, Gabriel has suffered from the constant friction in the Symphony, inflicting eternal pains deep in her soul for which there is no treatment save the destruction of her nemesis. Dominic's Inquisition in the seventh century pushed her a little farther -- her critics say it pushed her over the edge. She abandoned Heaven, returning only occasionally to her Citadel of Fire at the edge of the Marches. Gabriel is an Ofanite, and like all Ofanim, she must always move, always act. Yet her madness often traps her in a fugue state, and she spends long periods of time fighting off the afflictions that threaten to consume her. It is also in her nature to punish cruelty, and yet Belial, her diametrical opposite, has gone unpunished for millennia. Each abomination by Belial throws another hot cinder in her eye. Each time the weight of her dementia becomes an anchor, consuming flames gnaw a little bit more at her mind. Gabriel has an indomitable will, and she channels the Divine directly. Perhaps at times this acts as a balm on her psyche, as she understands the Symphony in a way no but Yves can, and possibly sees a future where her suffering is ended. And when she moves, she does so in spectacular fashion, the most dynamic, primordial creature in the universe, spinning away dissonance as she acts with the speed and certainty of God's will. But what if she began to reach her limits? What if after all these aeons, her celestial nature was finally yielding to the stress? What if Gabriel Fell? .......... When the stars threw down their spears, And water'd heaven with their tears, Did He smile His work to see? Did He who made the lamb make thee? .......... Yves was sitting on a crystal bench, in a crystal dome, illuminated by an infinite number of dazzling rainbows that did not merely fill the air, but seemed to replace it. The hues played across his aged features and somehow cast deeper shadows than could be seen anywhere else in this cathedral of brilliance. No one had ever intruded upon him before, as he sat at the center of Lucifer's cathedral, but for the first time in ages, an Ofanite came wending its way through the mirrored hallways and drifted into the center dome. It hovered a respectful distance away from the Archangel and waited, unwilling to interrupt his musings despite the urgency of its message. "She has not Fallen yet," Yves said at last. Multiple eyes blinked along its rim, then it tilted slightly and the whirring sound it made increased in pitch. "The Council will want to hear that, Master." Yves nodded. "I will be there shortly." The Wheel spun in place, simulating a bow, and flitted away, relieved to be dismissed. The Cathedral of Light was a beautiful but sad place. It did not want to contemplate parallels between this fractured cathedral, and the volcano at the edge of Heaven which was now filling with lava. .......... Tiger, Tiger, burning bright In the forests of the night, What immortal hand or eye Could frame thy fearful symmetry? William Blake This is a speculative adventure idea, completely non-canonical, exploring Gabriel's psyche and introducing some other notions of my own. It is particularly suited for experienced PCs. Rather than a fully-scripted adventure, I am writing this as simply a series of events and elements the GM may use to craft an adventure as he sees fit. I have left a lot of holes and blank spots for you to fill in -- this isn't intended to be something you can print out and run as is. Instead, there are numerous bits and pieces and a few ideas of directions to take at each critical juncture; call it an "Adventure Pizza." (Some gaming magazine coined that term...I like it.) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 04:25:41 -0500 From: Garrett Taylor Subject: IN> WOD/IN combo world JJF wrote: >Casca wrote: > >>>Does the list remember who was working on the WOD/IN >>>combo world? Is it done yet? >> >>That would be me...and it's mostly done. I haven't gotten around do >>doing a writeup due to basic laziness. > >[...] > >I was wondering if you were going to set this up as a webpage? >Or maybe as a document we can have? (hint, hint):) Please do, some of the players would like to see the rules they've been forced to guess at for the past five months. - -Garrett Taylor Macintosh Support / Lotus Admin / Domino Drone / Web Wonk / ICE Support ERAU: IT - Infrastructure taylorg@cts.db.erau.edu "Confidence is the feeling you have before you fully understand the situation." ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 04:26:03 -0500 From: Garrett Taylor Subject: IN> Interview with a Clueless PC (was Herding clueless PCs) Forward: I really have no problems with these people and even ocassionally hang out with them, but when we play - personalties frequently get into conflict and this doesn't help party unity or GM/player relations. That kind of stuff I save for personal email. Calling us 'clueless' because we didn't come up with the exact plot in an adventure *designed* to destroy clues deserves at least a word or two response. And I will continue to play and and try to improve things until enjoyment < aggravation for sum of invested effort. These comments cover all relavent posts in Digests 672-676. ***************************************** Eric (aka Casca) wrote: >Amen, sister. Which is why a great many of my adventures turn into >rambling affairs of seemingly non-related events as PCs grasp at straws, Because straws, despite our best efforts (not considering the Malakite lump), is all we get (see story synopsis below). >the NPCs advance their plans, Which is perfectly normal. >and I try desperately to involve the two >players who seem hellbent (literally, in the case of the inactive >Ofanite) on becoming lumps on a log. At the expense of the rest of the party and story. - ------------------------------ Casca wrote: >On Tue, 10 Mar 1998, Jo Hart wrote: >> But I have noticed that some players are more interested in the RP >>parts of the game than in the problem solving, and actually prefer >>to be led a bit by helpful NPCs. I think sometimes you have to >>design sessions around what you know the players seem to like doing. >>So if you know they aren't really into tortuous plots, think of ways >>to make the tortuous plots more accessible (depending on how much of >>a challenge you want things to be, and what your gamestyle is. A >>cinematic game will have to follow cinematic idioms (if that makes >>sense). >See, this is why many of my adventures turn into rambling, >seemingly unrelated sequences: if the players won't follow the plot, Subtle pointers of the 'This way to plot' variety may help. And don't show them only to the Sword Malakite's player. >I have to involve them through RP. This, of course, means a detour, >because if I use it to shove them back along the plot path >-immediately-, they'll recognize it as GM heavy-handedness and >rebel. Only the Sword Malakite's player would rebel, the rest of us understand that we're *part* of a story. >So I have to be surreptitious about it, which takes time. Usually the entire 4-5 hour session that focuses around one character. >Eventually, the RP leads them back to the plot, usually in a manner >from which they cannot extricate themselves cleanly. But it's a >pain in the arse because it's more work for me, effort which would >be better spent thinking up ways to involve the entire party instead >of just one PC. Agreed. >Did you ever see the Stallone movie _Copland_? If you haven't, do. >It's an excellent illustration of how my games run: the protagonists >stumble around confused until Act 3, Scene 3, in which all the >disparate elements are brought together and their inter-relatedness >made clear. If this is the effect you want then fine, no problems. For those who have heard of TORG - Nippon Tech adventures are supposed to follow this method. If you're expecting us to go around town from clue to clue you need to provide clues that don't need Sherlock Holmes and/or a Divine Intervention to get. [...too many players...] >I started out with only 5, but they were the -wrong- 5. Gee, thanks. I mean that. Really. >The other 2 were >brought in to lend some structure to the group, and they've done that >admirably: the Kyrio of Jean ties them all together so that no one is >left in the dark, You already know my feelings about what's happened to Kyrio's, no need to repeat them here. >and the Malakite of Janus is a gung-ho, "let's go blow things up >and get stuff done" type. He plays in the preceeding game (TORG), and he plays like that too. >It's the lumps that are the problems. The Ofanite is a Creationer, so >it's difficult to crack down on him. Give a neophyte player *any* servitor of Creation ('Do what thou wilt, but be cool') and he will not have a sense of direction. Without a sense of direction, he hangs around the Sword Malakite, sharing all the trouble/inaction the Malakite gets into. >The Malakite of >the Sword, on the other hand.....well, let us just say that Laurence >learned his Last Lesson quite well, and is about to teach it to >his servant. I'm looking forward to this, if only to see how quickly this pisses off the Malakite's player who will then push all the wrong 'Buttons' on the GM who will promptly call it a game session, wasting 3 hours of my life. Oh yeah. (it's happened before) [...] > Gee, it must be nice to have a PC group that actually works together. Aside from the Malakite we do, just not all in the same location. - ----------- "David Streeter" wrote: >>Mine is worse. I told him "Do something -- anything -- or take >>dissonance." He couldn't think of anything to do. I slapped him with >>dissonance. He seemed surprised. >> >>What do you folks do when you have players who Just Don't Get It (tm)? > >In the case of the inactive Ofanim, I would say he has the wrong >character. Not really, he simply serves the wrong Servitor. Without a reason to do something what's the point of action? >I find making characters for the players a useful way of overcoming >these sorts of problems. This GM is happy to stick you with the WoD disadvantages Dark Fate and Hunted for a total of ten points and then turn around and give the 'exceedingly rare' ability bought with those points to another player simply for a lucky dice roll. Think about it. [...reasonable suggestions of problems/solutions made...] - ------------------------------ Emily Dresner wrote: [...time and event triggers...] > So you can feed your PCs information based on what they do. And >then you can just go ahead and kill a bunch of friends and relatives >because they sat like lumps. If we, as a group, sat in a tether and did nothing you may have a point. But for the most part the characters were out in the world, spending resources (time, RP'ing, Essence, cards, contacts, etc.) following the few clues we had and getting squat for our efforts. (see story synopsis below) >Trust me, they'll move their fannies. Yes, right out of the game. I speak from personal experience. In a previous Eric game, the IN equivalent of an Infernal Intervention occured and three of the characters died, my character would have died too, except that being the fourth to die would have put the casuality rate over 50%, so he was 'saved'. The players who got killed left the game entirely. (one did comeback after a year though). > Yes, I agree. 7 is way to many. 6 is a cap on players. 7 players? Been there, GM'd that, gotten a lot of playing accomplished. Given, when you have 7, *all* the players have to realize that their characters are *part* of the story, not the story in and of itself. >>[...Creation Ofanite and Malakite of the Sword = lumps...] > >For the Ofanite, Make him FALL............. Screwing a novice player's character just to make a point? Oh yeah, that develops player-GM trust like nothing else. Oh yeah. Really. It does. - ------------------------------ Casca wrote: > Emily Dresner wrote: >> >> I have two kinds of plot points - Event Triggers and Time Triggers. > >I have these, too. The only problem is, the PCs don't seem to get >-any- of the Event triggers on their own initiative. If it weren't >for Interventions and cards (I've imported Torg Drama Deck cards into >the game), they wouldn't get anywhere at all. > >Let me illustrate what's going on in my campaign. Garrett, go away. Sorry, you surrendered that ability when you called me 'clueless'. At least until I have found the reason for such an accusation. >I have modified Feast of Blades as a lead-in to Demon Prince of Rock >& Roll. The idea is that Kronos, for his own reasons, wants Furfur >to become a Prince. He's the one that leaked the information about >the summoning song and pointed Furfur in the direction of Lillith so >it wouldn't seem like he was engineering it. He also enlisted the >help of Nybbas, for reasons which will soon become apparent. > >Kronos wants Furfur to be powerful, which means pumping the little >snit with as many Forces as possible. Now, Kronos knows about the >Dagger of Bithynia, all the whys and wherefores (who do you think >gave Gebbeleth the idea in the first place?). He leaked the location >of the Portugese cabal to a local Ofanite of Yves, who was ambushed >when he went investigating. Did not know this. >The Ofanite barely escaped with his >life, and managed to call in help in the form of an assault team of >Destiny Malakim. They, of course, trash the cabal. The only survivor >is Rasposo, because Kronos persuaded him to leave before the dung >became airborne. > >Now, since Gebbeleth still has his Word, Aleamon is just a Duke who >has managed to take over Secrets' organization. He really wants the >Word for himself, and the best way to do that is to get the dagger >containing his former master and consume his Forces. We figured out this much and/or had a running hypothesis that included it. > Of course, this >is not acceptable to Kronos, since he wants Furfur to do this. Admittedly clueless on our part. >Enter the PCs. The servant of Yves gets a visit from her boss, who >informs her of the destruction of the cabal and the escape of one of >their number who has a powerful relic. He tells her that this person >is arriving at such a time on such a flight, and would you mind >picking it up for me? Of -course- he knows that it contains an >insane Demon Prince. Of -course- he doesn't tell her that. It would >panic the group and >interfere with their ability to carry out their mission. Again, we're not stupid and figured out this part too. >They aren't the only ones waiting for him. Kronos has assigned one >of his best agents, a Baron, to wait for Rasposo's plane to arrive >and take the dagger from him. The human is, to use drug parlance, a >mule; once he gets the dagger into San Francisco, his usefulness >ends. Kronos, however, is a prudent demon, and expects trouble, so >this local team is assigned to make sure that whatever trouble >occurs helps Hell. The Baron, Timetheus, is a Balseraph with the >Malakite resonance. His assistants -- Alex, Beth, Chad, and Dana -- >are impudites. > >Eileth is also waiting for him, only she's a loyal servant of >Secrets who wants to get the dagger for Aleamon. Secrets being what >it is, she's its only servitor in the city. > >Now, Rasposo may not know he's being stalked by three groups, but >the dagger sure does. It may be insane and dying, but it still >resonantes with Secrecy. It prompts Rasposo to kill the crew, >believing (rightly) that the confusion will mask his getaway. Figured that out too. >The crash occurs pretty much like the module says. The PC, being >good angels, proceed to the crash site to Do Some Good. They help >the dying people, see that Eileth is a demon, and get the clues >about Rasposo. A search of the passenger compartment results in a >Divine Intervention, so I figure that the dagger didn't destroy >-all- the evidence -- they find Rasposo's hotel reservation. It takes a Divine intervention to find a clue? This after some otherwise impressive search totals that got us his name and a description of "Dark, swarthy man with a mustache." The other clue, if you can call it that, was that he threatened the Pedroza's Church. No clues as to why, when, or how. None of these facts came to the surface during out investigations. Aside: At this point Rasposo had been labeled KWM (Knife Weilding Maniac) to differentiate him from our SWM (Sword Weilding Maniac), the Sword Malakite. :) Hint: Resting the entirety of an Adventure from the start on the requirement of a Divine Intervention is not good form. >Some of them meet Timetheus, who passes himself off as a professor with his four grad students. With no seraphim present, they believe him, and he decides to keep an eye on the party, figuring that they'll do all the work, so he can keep a low profile. When the time is right, he'll take the dagger from them. We were always suspicious of him and his amazing ability to leave before we hooked up with the Seraph of Justice. (My Mecurian can't get above an equivalent of a check digit of 3 on a resonance roll to save his life.) >So far so good, right? This is where things go pear-shaped. > >They decide to stake out the hotel where Rasposo is staying. Not a >problem; the malakite covers the parking garage, and the Kyrio >inhabits the doorman. A few hours later, a police car pulls up, and >Eileth gets out. PCs converge. Malakite gets a sloppy result on a >stealth roll. Eileth invokes Captain of Private Chambers and >disappears. Ah, here's where the rules of the game started to change in *this* adventure. The Malakim can either a) spend Essence to improve the roll and making Noise or b) take it like a man and be obvious. Not wanting to scream "There is a angel following you!", he chose b. Events transpire and then next session; GM:"Oh, you can use Essence cards on skills and it doesn't create a distubance." (The malakim had just such a card availible to it.) Players:"That would've been nice to know last time." GM: "Oh, I thought I told you. Oh well." >Confused, they decide to check Rasposo's room to see if she's there. >They arrive in time to find it already ransacked (Eileth finds >nothing; Rasposo had not yet arrived at the hotel, as the players >already knew.) > >Begin chase sequence. Kyrio inhabits the police car, only to find it >booby-trapped against such tampering; attempting to start it >detonates the bomb inside. Kyrio gets out in time. PCs converge on >the parking garage, since that's where Eileth will go to get away >now that her car is gone. > >The next few moments are rather like the opening sequence of >Highlander. Antony, the Seraph of Justice, is nearly run over by >Eileth in a hotwired car. Bezekiel, the Kyrio of Jean, inhabits the >car to stop it. Eileth invokes Celestial Charm, and convinces Zeke >that he really wants to drive her away. Antony doesn't want her to >get away, so shoots her with a Holy 9mm bullet. He spends essence to >boost the score. The shot is -so- good it immediately kills her by >severing the 2nd and 3rd vertebrae, then proceeds through her into >the dashboard, engine block, and fuel line, before inbedding into >the concrete floor. Needless to say, this makes the car blow up, and >Zeke experiences the unique sensation of detonation. For which he gained dissonance. Unfairly I think, but then I'm not the GM. >They didn't know what to do after this. They had intended to >interrogate Eileth, but with her vessel dead that becomes >problematic. Investigation into her files reveals that they are >similarly booby-trapped; the Kyrio barely avoids taking severe >Etheral damage as the files self-destruct. > >Now they're confused, so they just decide to wander around for a >while, hoping something will bite them in the butt. They don't >resume the stakeout, Entirely our fault: 1) Most of us hovering at 0 essence and resources chasing useless leads, while a known Demon gang is roaming town. 2) Investigations occuring into his backgound (in Spain!), the morgues in SF and the secondary plot points were taking all our time. 3) Spent a game session (and more resources) in an encounter with Eli so he could give us that all-important clue "When is art not art?" which apperently we didn't 'get'. 4) We only considered the KWM to be insane, not stupid. (Eileth was a cop. Cop disappears - two explosions and a gunshot later, the hotel is swarming with cops and firemen. We though it a bad place to be for a guy on the lamb. Silly us, KWM was insane *and* stupid.) 5) Wasted part of the 56 game time hours of the adventure (from the KWM parking the jet on I-280 to Timmy boy waking the Dagger) on supporting our roles. >they don't do anything involving the Pedroza church other than >look inside to see if Rasposo is there..... In actuallity, we searched the outside and talked with the people who looked after the church while the Pedrozas were in the hospital. Result: no reason for KWM to even care about it. >After much dilly-dallying with a secondary plot involving >music-inspired violence, Which you played up like it was a Primary plot, half the time we didn't know which one to follow. Seeing as our investigations were drawing up zilch, some members concentrated on the one they could *do* something about. >the Appointed Hour rolls around. [...rest of the story of the Night of Destinies...] - ------------------------------ Earl Wajenberg wrote: >One element of style is whether the GM is a "dramatist," as Jo calls >it, or less directed. When I do the GMing, I have a clear plot in >mind. Usually, the PCs get pointed toward a clear goal ("save the >world," "rescue person X") and get occasional signs reading "This >Way to the Main Plot" thrust on them. Of course, I try to avoid >the extreem of "railroading." As the GM in the immediate preceeding game (and doing that for 5 years) I know that a definable and remotely attainable goal is required. Our Goal was to stop the KWM. Finding him was the impossible part. GM's explanation: "This is the Prince of Secrets you're dealing with." - ------------------------------ Julian Breen wrote: >I sympathise. Recently, my campaign has been going along the same >lines as your adventures, Casca! > [...discussing things with players...] > >From the conversations that followed I was told that as my campaign >is highly complicated with subplots, I wasn't really giving them >enough time to sort out one thing before throwing another at them. Okay Eric, here's your hint #2. >Now; that is part and parcel of how I work as a GM, always has been >and always will, yet if this means that my players are not enjoying >their game as much as they should be (oh, *I* sure am BTW) then >something needs to be done. Hint #3. [...] >What I'm saying is this. Although a scenario may look clear cut to >you as a referee that's because you have the advantage of knowing >what's going on in your campaign. I guess it boils down to looking >at it from their angle, and if you still can't see how they can >continue to miss the Big Picture, then it might take a spate of >playing rather than reffing. He plays in my TORG game from 1:30 - 5:00. I play in his game from 6:00 - 10:30. He's been playing for a while. >I myself have refereed almost exclusively for 14 years. Prior to >this I was definately a player, but hell, maybe I'm out of touch..? Try playing sometime, I know it's hard to go from the Omnipotence of GMing to PC grasping at straws but it is a very 'enlightening' transition. It has helped my game. >Another thing to consider is why people actually play RPGs? Some >like to powergame or rules lawyer, Eric would accuse me of that, but I just want to know how damage is dealt. >some like *intricate* character background and 'angst' That would be the Seraph's player >and some merely like to be part of a continuing, entertaining story. Sometimes me. Othertimes I need to act too. >They're *happy* taking a back seat and might get somewhat flustered >if you push anything other than that upon them. The player of the former Elohite. >If you don't want this type of player then fine, but be aware that >they are out there. To Eric's credit we've kinda worked these points out. - ------------------------------ Kevin Walsh wrote: [...generating characters and the whys behind the choices...] There is no core rule system availible to the players, so specialization is required to make sure the dice don't screw us, leaving precious little left for generalization. The problem with specialization is the ol' fish out of water routine. - ------------------------------ Julian Breen "David Streeter" Mideval Andrew Frades all wrote: [about communication] For communication to be useful, both parties must act on the info. My 'communication' with Eric has been rather one sided, me listening - him disregarding. It took a week's worth of discussion emails and the Seraph's player and I tag-teaming Eric for an additional 45 mins for him to see that Mercurians were being screwed out of 12 'freebie points'. (Everything else was the same but Seraphs had a base essence max capacity of 7 for no cost, Mecurians base max was 1 - with the WoD rules that is the same as 12 freebie's) Other choirs were being screwed too, but for progressively less. ************************************************* That's it for this response, back to writing my IN stories. - -Garrett Taylor Macintosh Specialist / Lotus Administrator / Domino Drone / Web Wonk ERAU: IT - Infrastructure taylorg@cts.db.erau.edu "I've got twenty guys out there, packing their shorts with dry-ice. If that isn't entertainment, I don't know what it is." - --Red Green, "New Red Green Show" on PBS ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 11:19:21 +0000 From: Sam Kington Subject: Re: IN> Interview with a Clueless PC (was Herding clueless PCs) Garrett Taylor wrote: [snip] > Calling us 'clueless' because we didn't come up with the exact plot in > an adventure *designed* to destroy clues deserves at least a word or > two response. [whacking great huge snip] BTW, what happened to Kadris, the Mercurian of Revelation? He's supposed to help the party if clues vanish. Sam - -- Home page: http://www.illuminated.co.uk/ INWO Homebrew has moved: http://www.illuminated.co.uk/inwo/ Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 12:34:52 -0500 From: Andrew Frades Subject: Re: IN> Discordant Questions Nana Yaw Ofori wrote: > > I'd been paging through the APG's Choir-specific Discords, and ran > across "Evil Warnming", that Malakite Discord that lets you know there are > Demons in the Area while letting them know there's a Malakite in that > direction. And as I read the description, I noticed that while it says that > it detects the demons "in range" it gives no mention as to how large that > range is. And secondly, other than the reaction penalty, and fifteen extra > points to the character, I couldn't find any difference between Evil > Warning/1 and Evil Warning/6. As written you could definitely have some problems with this. You could do one of a few things but the one I am fond of is having the Malakite detect Demons indirectly by hearing a low level Disturbance based on the number of forces that they have (i.e. nine force Demon, nine point Disturbance) but the detetion will not include direct information, just a distant rumbling of Demonic drums. Conversely the Demons get a roll based on a Disturbance level equal to the Forces of the Malakite plus the level of Discord. > Second, I've found meyself in the rather unenviable position of > playing a Bright Lilim struck with the Aura Discord, due to a bad > Judgement. Now the Aura discord does say Angels can tell the subject's a > Demon if she belongs to the band of Lilim...but what about the Choir? If you look at someone and know that they are a Celestial and that they are a Demon, they must be Lilim, their the only ones the Discord works like this on, therefor you can tell by exclusion. Andrew ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 12:42:09 -0500 From: Andrew Frades Subject: Re: IN> Artifact Cost Drake wrote: > > So my suggestion, and this has been discussed by others and agreed apon, > that Relics should cost an average of 1 point per level of the song in > it; 2 if the user is attuned to it as per Corporeal Artifacts, and 3 if > attuned to it and it gives a skill bonus. This makes much more sense to > me, but I would like to see what others think about it. First off In Nomine does not protest that many of the costs of items are not balanced with the costs of songs, etc that do the same thing. In Nomine is not a game that is terribly concerned with game balance at most times. Second, Talisman are additive to your normal skill. If you use a Talisman/4 and have the skill at 4 you use it as if your skill were 8. Also ever try to use the Ranged Weapons skill without a weapon. Talisman often provide the item needed to use the skill as well as the skill. On Relics, many of them not only contain the song, but the essence needed to power it (thus 3 points per level). Sure you have to put the essence in yourself (unless it is also a reliquary) but once it is in there you can use the song out of the relic at reduced (or zero) cost to you. Good enough? Sure they are expensive, but they are also very powerful if used correctly. If you have questions about Relics etc. look to the Liber Reliquarum, it answers most if not all of the game questions you might have. Pax, Andrew ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 12:44:34 -0500 From: Andrew Frades Subject: Re: IN> Bodies David C. Shadle wrote: > > What happens to the vessels of celestials that go celestial? Do they goto > sleep, disappear, or what? Poof. Gone. While you are Celestial your body is nowhere until you re-corporealize. Andrew ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 19:17:37 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Interview with a Clueless PC (was Herding clueless PCs) I'm just curious why someone's PC got onto the List for the pure point of flaming us all. *sigh* Weva. Get a clue, dude. We don't all play in your game. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 19:56:46 -0500 (EST) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> Interview with a Clueless PC (was Herding clueless PCs) On Sat, 14 Mar 1998, Emily Dresner wrote: > I'm just curious why someone's PC got onto the List for the pure point of > flaming us all. No, no, no. You don't understand. The only person he's flaming is me, Em. And being badmouthed by him is nothing compared to the HUGE breach of etiquette he committed: I told him not to read something because it was a GM secret, yet he did it anyway. This is incredibly unprofessional of you, Garret. I'm diappointed that you would stoop this low. Of course, this brings up all sorts of complications for me. Either I: A) change the plot so that it no longer resembles what you read, B) kick you out as a object lesson, or C) come down on you like a load of bricks when you act on knowledge you shouldn't possess. The problem here is that A is too much work, C will bring cries of GM unfairness, and B...well, if I go with B, I might as well just end the campaign, because I -know- the game won't survive the schism. This also means that I am now denied a tremendous resource: the list itself. Since I can no longer trust you to read things you shouldn't, I can't use -anything- posted here and hope to keep it a surprise. Thanks a whole hell of a lot, Garrett. Happy Fucking Birthday to Me. > *sigh* Weva. Get a clue, dude. We don't all play in your game. I apologize to the list for this airing of dirty laundry in public. - -- Casca, Seraph of Archives (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 19:33:25 -0500 From: eswhanu@juno.com Subject: Re: IN> Hardcover version of In Nomine If you are ever in NE USA, and I run another In Nomine LARP... It was a hell of a lot of fun. Brian Ward On Fri, 13 Mar 1998 13:25:55 -0500 Jesse writes: >>Angel of 420 >> >>"You know, they say that Fire is all-consuming. But then again, it >>always manages to leave some resin for you to scrape and pack in your >>bowl. Thank God for small wonders. Wanna hit?" >> >>Eli, to a Servitor of Gabriel, at my live action In Nomine game. > >Man, I gotta get in that game. > >-Jesse > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #679 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.