From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sun Mar 15 21:03:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA19035 for ; Sun, 15 Mar 1998 21:03:42 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id UAA26577 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sun, 15 Mar 1998 20:53:54 -0600 Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 20:53:54 -0600 Message-Id: <199803160253.UAA26577@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #680 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Sunday, March 15 1998 Volume 01 : Number 680 In this digest: IN> Re: Eviiiiiiil! IN> New to the list..... Re: IN> Kobal (was Re: In Nomine Flavor) Re: IN> Kobal (was Re: In Nomine Flavor) Re: IN> Re: IN- In Nomine Flavor Re: IN> New to the list..... IN> Interview with a Clueless PC (was Herding clueless PCs) Re: IN> Re: IN- In Nomine Flavor Re: [Fwd: Re: IN> In Nomine Flavor] Re: [Fwd: Re: IN> In Nomine Flavor] Re: IN> Bodies Re: IN> New to the list..... IN> Bodies-Fluff response Re: IN> Bodies-Fluff response IN> test IN> IN INWO: Cards still to be done ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 02:31:04 +0000 From: "Ad." Subject: IN> Re: Eviiiiiiil! > ------------------------------ > > Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 17:09:49 EST > From: WCLove > Subject: Re: IN> Kobal (was Re: In Nomine Flavor) > > In a message dated 98-03-13 15:40:31 EST, you write: > > << I'd say that his love of people goes beyond even loving to see > them fall apart. Consider that "evil" in In Nomine isn't necessarily > wanting the worst for everyone, just wanting your vision imprinted on the > Symphony rather than the ineffable plan of God. So Kobal sees that people > are suffering on earth, some of them suffering a lot, and thinks to > himself "well, if I could teach them to laugh at misfortune, they'd all be > a lot happier." So he sets out to do so and all of a sudden he's a demon > because the ineffable plan says that humans aren't supposed to enjoy > suffering. >> > > I'm new to this list, but I must say that I agree with this statement totally. > Evil in this world seems to me to be separation from the Symphony, and a > willingness to believe your vision of the Symphony is superior to God's. > > Kobal may mean well (in a demonic way), but his vision is different from God's > and he puts it above the real Symphony. Thus, he is evil. > > Remember the old chestnut. . ."the road to hell is paved with good > intentions." I'm not completely convinced. The ineffible plan of God (assuming he exists as an entity in the sense that is being used here) is unknown. What are the archangels doing except trying to impose their view of the symphony on the symphony. Sometimes they will even go against the Seraphim council which should be the closest thing to God's ineffible plan. They regularly conflict with each other. I also believe that it would be possible for a group of angels to split from heaven and organise outside of heaven, even considering themselves not to be serving God, and still be angels, if their actions were truely selfless. In Nomine is excellant in it's replacement of good and evil with selfish and selflessness. In conclusion Kobal must go beyond simply having something to impose on the symphony (otherwise known as being word-bound :) ) and not seeing himself as serving God. The essence of his word is laughing at OTHER peoples misfortunes, failings, and problems - and is hence selfish. Oh, and if not wanting to impose your own view of the symphony above that of God makes you an angel - Habbalah really are. :D No, I don't believe the road to hell is paved with good intentioned, the road to hell is paved with actions which are at a fundamental level motiavated purely by self interest. (that and breaking your dissonance requirements) Adam, after sitting staring at a creen for two hours, undoubtably a dissonant Ofanite of Last Minute Player Recruitment. PS: Uriel is up on my page now - come to: http://homepage.tinet.ie/~kelly - -- "The seas boiled and the living envied the dead. All was shattered and all but memory lost, and one memory above all others, of him who brought the Shadow and the Breaking of the World. And him they named Dragon." - - from: The Breaking of the World, Author Unknown, Fourth Age. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 22:40:10 -0500 From: Soviet Subject: IN> New to the list..... Hi, I'm new to this list, and I just bought the game.....I have a few questions regarding the game..but first has anyone done a conversion or campaign based on the Prophecy novels?(that's the main reason I bought this game, after seeing how cool it would be to play a 'bad' angel)...... - -- "I want that power. By right, it is mine. For ultimate power is the ultimate destiny of Doom." Spectacular Spider-Man #159 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 23:15:43 -0500 (EST) From: Kevin Mowery Subject: Re: IN> Kobal (was Re: In Nomine Flavor) On Fri, 13 Mar 1998, Andrew Frades wrote: > Kevin Mowery wrote: [my summary of Kobal wanting to help people snipped] > > I'm not really sure about this. I'm going to have to say that I > strongly disagree. Kobal, IMO of course, makes a habit of pointing out > how stupid you are, and makes others laugh at you (oversimplifying). If > he were teaching people to laugh at misfortune and be better because of > it, he would be an Angel. > > The key to Demons is not that they disagree with God's plan, it is that > they think that they have a better one and act on it. They are all > about being selfish. They want the best for themselves and damned be to > all the rest. But he *does* think he has a better plan, and he *is* acting on it. He thinks he's helping humanity, but so do the Habbalah. His intention is to make people better able to withstand their own suffering and the suffering of others (well-adjusted humans tend to be remarkably empathetic). So a bit of sangfroid would help people in Kobal's opinion. The problem is, Kobal's not teaching people to laugh at their own misfortune. In an ideal world, Kobal the angel would promote the idea that when you fail, you have a good laugh and chalk it up to experience. But Kobal the demon teaches people that nothing is as funny as someone else failing, that when something horrible happens to you or anyone else, it's the object of ridicule. > > Andrew Kevin "Professor Bobo" Mowery_________________________www.io.com/~profbobo "The small one is too small, the large one too large, and the other just right . . . but I can't reach it." --Russian proverb **See _The Seven Stars_ MSTing at www.io.com/~profbobo** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 04:27:56 +0000 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: IN> Kobal (was Re: In Nomine Flavor) At 17:07 13/03/98 -0500, you wrote: >Kevin Mowery wrote: > >> I'd say that his love of people goes beyond even loving to see >> them fall apart. Consider that "evil" in In Nomine isn't necessarily >> wanting the worst for everyone, just wanting your vision imprinted on the >> Symphony rather than the ineffable plan of God. So Kobal sees that people >> are suffering on earth, some of them suffering a lot, and thinks to >> himself "well, if I could teach them to laugh at misfortune, they'd all be >> a lot happier." >I'm not really sure about this. I'm going to have to say that I >strongly disagree. Kobal, IMO of course, makes a habit of pointing out >how stupid you are, and makes others laugh at you (oversimplifying). If >he were teaching people to laugh at misfortune and be better because of >it, he would be an Angel. > I agree with Andrew here. Look at the attunement Kobal gives to his Impudites (they can kill mortals, as long as it's funny), and then magnify it a lot. Then remember that he finds a lot of things funny that normal people wouldn't. It's quite plausaible that he sits around and smirks when he hears reports of mass mortal deaths, whether he caused them or not, 'Ah well, you have to see the funny side.' I don't think his aim is to try to make humanity happier ;) If he loves mortals, its purely because they are more amusing than demons (not difficult). I suspect the most amusing thing about Dark Comedy is that most of it's servitors -- including the Prince -- take it all SO SERIOUSLY. At least, that would match up with stand-up comedians I have known. Lucifer probably gets a good laugh out of it. I think Andre is probably an even worse Impudite. Anyone really think he gets dissonance if he hurts or kills a mortal? ;) jo - ---------- "I like getting into hot water, it keeps me clean." G. K. Chesterton jhart@btinternet.com -- http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~jhart/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 00:56:41 +0000 From: Nathaniel Eliot Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- In Nomine Flavor > > And I was thinking that instead of, or rather in addition to, their > > normal attributes and alignments, they should have a Choir attribute > > and a Superior alignment or attribute. That way, you can have plot > > cards that affect the various choirs and superiors, like resonance, > > dissonance, etc... > > No need; got it covered. You don't need a seperate choir and > superior stat--it's the name of the card itself. If we want a card > to affect all servitors of Kobal, all we have to say on the card is > "...to all Servitors of Kobal." The rules make the terminology > clear. Dissonance is covered as well...a bit generified, but > covered. That's true; I'm used to Magic rules, where if it wasn't explicitly stated as an attribute, it couldn't be refered to without a lot of tapdancing... Then I would recommend one attribute for all of them: Celestial. So you can do special stuff with Distrubance, if you want, and so on. Do you need ideas for Plot cards ? > > > The reason people play Servitors of Kobal is the same reason people > > > play Discordia in INWO...because they'd rather have fun than > > > powergame. If you want to kick ass, serve Belial or Saminga (or play > > > Cuthulu or Zurich); Kobal is for roleplaying and having some real > > > fun...at the expense of others whenever possible. :) > > > > Actually, Cthulu can be fun, as long as you attack your own structure > > too... > > Ah, it's still a powergamer's Illuminati...attacking your own > structure is tactically sound when you're Cuthulu, and you can make > it privileged so no one else can interfere. I tell you, Discordia, > Bermuda, and the UFOs... But I don't have the cards to make them fun (in fact, given the *small* amount of cards I have, due to the lack of local players, I may not even have those the UFOs)... Hmmm - wondering if it is possible to get a really nastily long, convoluted Illuminati game going online. Course, some rules would have to be fudged... (And we are really wandering off-topic, so if you want to shoot this off the list, let me know...) Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@mci2000.com "It's the eternal question, really; to be a slave in Heaven, or a star in Hell. But sometimes Hell doesn't look like Hell. On a good day, it can look like LA." - Playing God ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 00:56:41 +0000 From: Nathaniel Eliot Subject: Re: IN> New to the list..... > I'm new to this list, and I just bought the game.....I have > a few questions regarding the game..but first has anyone done a > conversion or campaign based on the Prophecy novels? Novels? I wasn't aware of a novel. Would the movies be based on them? > (that's the main reason I bought this game, after seeing how > cool it would be to play a 'bad' angel)...... There has been some speculation along those lines, yes (assuming the books and the movie have similar plots). Check the digests, at the end of September, beginning of October, for a thread labelled "A thought: Opinions wanted". The digest is at: http://www.sjgames.com/ftp/sjgames/in-nomine/digests/ Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@mci2000.com "It's the eternal question, really; to be a slave in Heaven, or a star in Hell. But sometimes Hell doesn't look like Hell. On a good day, it can look like LA." - Playing God ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 01:54:20 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Interview with a Clueless PC (was Herding clueless PCs) >>>I'm just curious why someone's PC got onto the List for the pure point of flaming us all. *sigh* Weva. Get a clue, dude. We don't all play in your game.<<< Actually, it looked to me like he was flaming the GM after the GM has spent a great deal of time telling all of us (who don't play in his game) how clueless his players are. As for the situation in general: been there, done that, I can see a gaming group that's about to implode if they don't hash out their differences *in private* without telling the whole wide world how pissed off they are at one another. - -David (the only thing I enjoy more than reading transcripts of someone else's game is transcripts of someone else's OOC game disputes...) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 03:22:15 -0500 (EST) From: Pee Kitty Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- In Nomine Flavor On Sun, 15 Mar 1998, Nathaniel Eliot wrote: > > > And I was thinking that instead of, or rather in addition to, their > > > normal attributes and alignments, they should have a Choir attribute > > > and a Superior alignment or attribute. That way, you can have plot > > > cards that affect the various choirs and superiors, like resonance, > > > dissonance, etc... > > > > No need; got it covered. You don't need a seperate choir and > > superior stat--it's the name of the card itself. If we want a card > > to affect all servitors of Kobal, all we have to say on the card is > > "...to all Servitors of Kobal." The rules make the terminology > > clear. Dissonance is covered as well...a bit generified, but > > covered. > > That's true; I'm used to Magic rules, where if it wasn't explicitly > stated as an attribute, it couldn't be refered to without a lot of > tapdancing... Heh. Fortunately, it's safe to make the assumption that INWO players can understand a rule even if it isn't completely translated into 4 pages of legalese in the rulebook. :) > Then I would recommend one attribute for all of them: Celestial. So > you can do special stuff with Distrubance, if you want, and so on. Already covered, my man! Except there's two: Angelic and Demonic. We haven't really covered any global rules for disturbance (except an attribute freeze card "Symphonic Ripples", that'll freeze both attributes)...even the dissonance rules, as I said, are very simple and generic--if a celestial group rolls an 11 or 12, they screwed up and get a dissonance token. They can remove 'em with difficulty. If they do it again while dissonance, they're outcast (destroyed). > Do you need ideas for Plot cards ? Yes, always! This is my baby, but that doesn't mean it's closed to the public! Alex Yeager has done several servitors already, and Jesse Rooney worked up Plots to turn Personalities into Soldiers. I just posted some Intervention plots, and MANY more spaces are open to be filled. Join inwo-cards...it's not a prolific list; your mailbox can handle it...I think the address to join is inwo-cards-request@lists.io.com with the message body "subscribe". > > > Actually, Cthulu can be fun, as long as you attack your own structure > > > too... > > > > Ah, it's still a powergamer's Illuminati...attacking your own > > structure is tactically sound when you're Cuthulu, and you can make > > it privileged so no one else can interfere. I tell you, Discordia, > > Bermuda, and the UFOs... > > But I don't have the cards to make them fun (in fact, given the > *small* amount of cards I have, due to the lack of local players, I > may not even have those the UFOs)... Proxy 'em. I loaded up on blank cards and razored-clean some useless commons (like Foiled!) and proxied the hell out of 'em. Or find a gaming store with a OWE and talk 'em down to $8 for the thing. > Hmmm - wondering if it is possible to get a really nastily long, > convoluted Illuminati game going online. Course, some rules would > have to be fudged... It's been done, but I'd hate to write the rules for it. > (And we are really wandering off-topic, so if you want to shoot this > off the list, let me know...) Hmm, yeah, good point. Okay, reply in private next time. Anyone else who's interested in IN INWO (or just INWO), get on the inwo-cards list and join in the fun! Or sit back and wait...it'll all be put up on my web page when it's done (http://www.concentric.net/~pkitty). Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! And finally, a special message to \|/ ____ \|/ anyone who thinks I give a damn... ~@-/ oO \-@~ /_( \__/ )_\ \__U_/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 03:12:13 -0600 From: tom timberlake Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: IN> In Nomine Flavor] [massive snip of Werewolves in IN] ArchBeth wrote: > Have a good time in the Marches... > > This is really neat. Are they going to discover any *more* IN stuff? I really don't know; the Shadow Lord doesn't even remember his encounter with the Marches--erased memories to hide the knowledge of the War--or he would know not to look a Lilim in the eyes. They are going to end up looking [eventually] for a lost Totem--Adonis, patron of _male_ Black Furies [that's how long he has been lost] and will probably end up finding out more about the War than they know now--looking for spirits will probably lead them to more knowledge of other spirits, including Angels and Demons. But what specifically they will discover, I don't know. tom timberlake, cadre Cherub of Heaven ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 03:13:47 -0600 From: tom timberlake Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: IN> In Nomine Flavor] Jo Hart wrote: > > At 18:22 13/03/98 -0600, you wrote: > > Watcher's name was Ari-El [Earl--does this mean Lion of God like I think > it does, > >or is Ari a specific name for a particular lion, > > Lion = Aryeh (thats the usual one, I think) > > Ariel could be Lion of God (as opposed to Auriel) > > jo > ---------- > "I like getting into hot water, it keeps me clean." > G. K. Chesterton > > jhart@btinternet.com -- http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~jhart/ Thanks, Jo. I appreciate the knowledge. tom ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 23:07:48 -0500 From: Nana Yaw Ofori Subject: Re: IN> Bodies At 12:44 PM -0500 3/14/98, Andrew Frades wrote: >David C. Shadle wrote: >> >> What happens to the vessels of celestials that go celestial? Do they goto >> sleep, disappear, or what? > >Poof. Gone. While you are Celestial your body is nowhere until you >re-corporealize. > >Andrew Yep. With up to 10 x Corp Forces of stuff. That's a lot of weight. Enough to carry a number of nice weapons, or a small animal or infant. Time doesn't flow for the Vessel, because otherwise your Vessels might bleed to death while you're not using them. Also means you have to keep resetting your watch every time you swap Vessels. Small price to pay for a whole bunch of new Body. Disturbance makes it a bit inconvenient, though. Watch out, my mind's running away again. Bear with me, I'm doing this on three hours of sleep... "Allright, here's the situation. Jaraith, Cherub of Laurence was on a mission, the details of whch even I'm not privy to. Unfortunately, things got a bit too hairy for him, and a bunch of Baal's boys decided to take him down. Things went bad from there. Near as we can tell, they ganged up on him Celestially and made him a Remnant. Backup arrived a few hours later, and they caught the Demons wating for his body to to show up again and plonk him in limbo. In the ensuing...mayhem, the Remnant Jaraith apparently manifested and ran off. But since he's a Remnant, his memories are probably useless to us. And that would pretty much be the end of it, were it not for one thing. "Jaraith had a partner, a Familiar Reliever named Pierce, with a cat Vessel It's quite possible that Piece has the information that we need as well. Problem is, we can't find Pierce. His Heart shows he's still alive, and hasn't gone Outcast...but we can't track him by it, either. Lord knows what happened to him. "It's possible that he's hanging around with Jaraith, but that should have given us a bee-line to them both. So our leads were null, until one of David's Ofanim, Hannah thought he spotted him in your city So what I want you to do is track Jaraith down, and see if he can lead you to Pierce, so we can get Pierce back Heavenside, and get that information." "Jaraith has two Vessels, one male and one female. Here are pictures of both, but he's using the male one, as all signs point to that one having been his favorite, not to mention it being the one the Davidian spotted. He's probably using a name like 'Jerry' Here's a picture of Pierce's Vessel as well. Hanna will meet you out by the McDonalds at 2nd Street and Jefferson. Good luck." Phew. Allright, what happened. Pretty much precisely what the breifing said. Pierce does have the necessary info. There's one small problem in getting it, though. Jaraith, for whatever reason, was in the Femail Vessel, feeing from the Demons with Pierce in her arms She took a burst of automatic fire, one that nearly killed the Vessel. She swapped Vessels, taking everything she was carrying with her, including Pierce. Jaraith planned to swap back in a safer location when time allowed. Time didn't. He wound up being amubushed, and tried to call down Laurence, but the call didn't go through. After getting more crap beaten out of him, he went celestial and tried to Ascend. That didn't work either. He tried to flee into the ground, but they were on him too quickly, and that was that. The forces flew, and Jaraith became a Remnant. The Remnant, Jerry doesn't remember anything of his Celestial existence. He doesn't even remember he has another Vessel. Pierce is with the other Vessel, frozen in time, and protected from harm. The trick is going to b finding Jerry, and figuring out what happened to Pierce. Once you've donethat, there's the matter of getting the Remnant to swap Vessels. A rather cruel way of doing that would be simplly doing massive damage to the Remnant's current Vessel, and hoping that triggers a vessel-swap... = http://www.io.com/~beholder ===================== nofori@pop3.utoled.edu === Nana-Yaw "The Fish" Ofori, Freelance Soldier of Heck, presenty serving Jaraith, Shedite Baron of Nightmares, the Demon of NONONOAUUUAARRGGGHHH!!! ===== ><{{"> ============ "Life's a Fish, then you Fry." ======= <"}}>< ====== ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 10:32:45 -0500 From: Soviet Subject: Re: IN> New to the list..... Nathaniel Eliot wrote: Novels? I wasn't aware of a novel. Would the movies be based on Oops the I meant the movies..sorry guess I have to much in my mind.... - -- "I want that power. By right, it is mine. For ultimate power is the ultimate destiny of Doom." Spectacular Spider-Man #159 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 11:31:13 -0500 From: Frank Lazar Subject: IN> Bodies-Fluff response At 12:44 PM -0500 03/14/1998, Andrew Frades wrote: >David C. Shadle wrote: >> >> What happens to the vessels of celestials that go celestial? Do they goto >> sleep, disappear, or what? > >Poof. Gone. While you are Celestial your body is nowhere until you >re-corporealize. > >Andrew Angels go "Poof" or sometimes "ting". Demons typically go "BAMF". - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- | _ | | We are dreamers, shapers, singers and makers. /_\ | | We study the mysteries of laser and circuit, // \\ | | Crystal and scanner, holographic demons, \\ //___\\ | | And invocations of equations. \\ // \\ | | \\__// \\ | | These are the tools we employ. And we know... many things. \\ | | \\ | | | Frank Lazar http://www.interactive.net/~fmlazar | \\ | - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 10:13:37 -0800 From: Armand Subject: Re: IN> Bodies-Fluff response >At 12:44 PM -0500 03/14/1998, Andrew Frades wrote: >>David C. Shadle wrote: >>> >>> What happens to the vessels of celestials that go celestial? Do they goto >>> sleep, disappear, or what? >> >>Poof. Gone. While you are Celestial your body is nowhere until you >>re-corporealize. >> >>Andrew > > > >Angels go "Poof" or sometimes "ting". Demons typically go "BAMF". Oh, come on, he's not a demon, he's a blue elf. I think that demons make a sound more like the squishing of a rotten melon, but I'm prejudiced. Armand, Ofanim of X-men Giant-Sized #1, first apearance of Nightcrawler 0 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 17:53:15 -0600 From: John L Veazey Subject: IN> test I haven't gotten any mail in about 8 hours. Just testing Vz ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 02:37:07 +0000 From: Sam Kington Subject: IN> IN INWO: Cards still to be done Hi, In case you want to join in the IN INWO card design effort, here's a list of cards that haven't yet been done. (Cards should be posted to inwo-cards, not in_nomine-l.) Plots: +10 (Angelic and Demonic) Power to 6 (Angelic and Demonic) Reload (Angelic and Demonic) - should probably be Sunrise and Sunset Zap (Angelic and Demonic) Paralyse (Angelic and Demonic) Servitors: Blandine and Jordi are out, and I believe Dominic and Yves are claimed. Vapula is also claimed, which leaves the Demonic servitors of the following Demon Princes (Beleth, Haagenti and Lilith are not in the expansion): Andrealphus, Prince of Lust Asmodeus, Prince of the Game Baal, Prince of the War Belial, Prince of Fire Kobal, Prince of Dark Humor Kronos, Prince of Fate Malphas, Prince of Factions Nybbas, Prince of the Media Saminga, Prince of Death Valefor, Prince of Theft In addition, there aren't any NWOs, Resources, Places or Personalities. Sam - -- Home page: http://www.illuminated.co.uk/ INWO Homebrew has moved: http://www.illuminated.co.uk/inwo/ If you can count your money, you don't have a billion dollars. - J Paul Getty ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #680 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.