From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Mar 18 12:21:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA00053 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 12:21:52 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id LAA20909 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 11:59:17 -0600 Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 11:59:17 -0600 Message-Id: <199803181759.LAA20909@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #683 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, March 18 1998 Volume 01 : Number 683 In this digest: Re: IN> Re: Vampires Re: IN> Re: Campaign Ideas Re: IN> Re: Campaign linking IN> Re: IN- Re: Campaign Ideas Re: IN> Wandering Jew? Re: IN> Character Problems Re: IN> Re: Vampires Re: IN> Wandering Jew? Re: IN> Preacher Campaign? IN> Free Lilim Re: IN> Preacher Campaign? Re: IN> Free Lilim Re: IN> Wandering Jew? Re: IN> Wandering Jew? IN> Variant Campaigns (Was Preacher Campaign) IN> Re: IN- Free Lilim IN> In Nomine Homo Superior Re: IN> Character Problems IN> Re: Distubances IN> Fallen Re: IN> Re: Distubances Re: IN> Wandering Jew? IN> Dies Irae: a jumprope chant? Re: IN> Character Problems Re: IN> Re: Campaign Ideas Re: IN> Free Lilim ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 20:23:18 +0900 From: Simon Hailes Subject: Re: IN> Re: Vampires At 05:28 PM 17/03/98, you wrote: >Is it me or is the IN NOMINE digest turning into the Vampire digest? > >It seemed that people were discussing the WoD but maily in comparison with, or about combining it with In Nomine, believe me, some discussions can last for a long time but as far as I know they have never taken over the whole list! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 20:52:39 +0900 From: Simon Hailes Subject: Re: IN> Re: Campaign Ideas At 02:17 PM 17/03/98 -0800, you wrote: >> > For a while I was pretty much straight when it came to In Nomine, ie, I kept pretty much to the rules and canon and everything, a few things bothered me though and I decided to change them, the first was the rule about Interventions in the Celestial Realms, I thought that sucked so I made it that God doesn't intervene in Hell, neither does Lucifer intervene in Heaven (much) IMO God has really taken a step back, to see if Lucifer can put his money where his mouth is, oh yeah, the Angels of Final Judgment are Fallen in my campaign, this way I see things evened up. However once I got on this list I saw people had all sorts of ideas, like converting In Nomine to the Kabbalah, to Buddhism, Hinduism, changing Archangel Words, etc so I thought, why not have a go at it, anyway, in some cases it would be simple, like In Nomine Spawn, or In Nomine Star Wars (the sci fi parts would be difficult but you've got the angel demon thing set with the dark side and the light side of the Force) Jedi could be Soliders of God, Sith could be Soliders of Hell, etc, but I guess a more challening notion came to me, based as it was on a recent book I read, about the whole ancient astronaut theory, which may be directly responsible for a large number of our myths, the book was called 'Gods of the New Millennium and I recommend reading it, it talks about queries on evolution and human culture, claiming that gods (immortal beings from the stars with great powers of science and magick) genetically engineered humanity in Eden (which comes from Sumerian that means home of the gods) in fact there were two Edens, one where man was originally created, the other where man was cloned for slavery. For those who are familiar with Sumerian Mythology, you know that they already had myths about the flood and about an earthly Paradise, in fact, it seems the early sections of the Bible are just convoluted interpretations of Sumerian Myth, the God Yahweh in fact is described as the Sumerian deity Ishkur, and he had Moses create a communication device for listening in (The Ark of the Covenant) the gods are in fact divided between the Enkiite Gods, the Serpents, descemded from Enki who created Mankind and then behind his brother Enlil's back gave them the ability to reproduce, he also worked out the Processioanal Cycle and was responsible for other feats such as the Sphinx and Stone henge, the Enliliite Gods however served Enlil, who had claim to Earth by genetic purity, Enki disagreed of course and this created a schism between themselves and their children that has lasted to this very day, just how I will convert this I have yet to decide but hopefully I will come up with something, any ideas? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 00:23:38 +0000 (GMT) From: Steve Jessop Subject: Re: IN> Re: Campaign linking On Tue, 17 Mar 1998, Nathaniel Eliot wrote: > > would anyone be interested in linking our campaigns together? > > It's an interesting idea, but I'd worry about the execution. I would > put down a couple of ground rules: I agree that anything like this would require that the 'grand plot' of the two games be the same. However, if all people want is a source of background material (wars and rumours of wars), I would love to be involved in some kind of exchange of NPCs, in-game events, situations, and the like. Irregular reports along the lines of 'this cool thing happened in my game yesterday' are always fun to read (and write), and can be used without any official 'game link'. If PCs from different games meet, they can either play out the meeting between them (essentially, each is 'guest NPCing' in the other campaign), or else each GM can NPC the visitor, and the meeting will go differently in the different campaigns, with no harm done. My main reason for suggesting this is selfish, in that my campaign could never fit in with anyone else's (Unless there is someone else out there who has celestials using Mage Spheres). Basically, I'm suggesting that those involved all run their own games, but swap stories as much as possible. Bags I Oxford. Steve. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 17:10:28 PST From: "David Streeter" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Re: Campaign Ideas Use full stops. Sorry, I had to say that. SurturZ Habbalite of Factions, Demon of Constructive Criticism - ------------------------------------------------------ > For a while I was pretty much straight when it came to In Nomine, ie, >I kept pretty much to the rules and canon and everything, a few things >bothered me though and I decided to change them, the first was the rule >about Interventions in the Celestial Realms, I thought that sucked so I >made it that God doesn't intervene in Hell, neither does Lucifer intervene >in Heaven (much) IMO God has really taken a step back, to see if Lucifer >can put his money where his mouth is, oh yeah, the Angels of Final Judgment >are Fallen in my campaign, this way I see things evened up. >However once I got on this list I saw people had all sorts of ideas, like >converting In Nomine to the Kabbalah, to Buddhism, Hinduism, changing >Archangel Words, etc so I thought, why not have a go at it, anyway, in some >cases it would be simple, like In Nomine Spawn, or In Nomine Star Wars (the >sci fi parts would be difficult but you've got the angel demon thing set >with the dark side and the light side of the Force) Jedi could be Soliders >of God, Sith could be Soliders of Hell, etc, but I guess a more challening >notion came to me, based as it was on a recent book I read, about the whole >ancient astronaut theory, which may be directly responsible for a large >number of our myths, the book was called 'Gods of the New Millennium and I >recommend reading it, it talks about queries on evolution and human >culture, claiming that gods (immortal beings from the stars with great >powers of science and magick) genetically engineered humanity in Eden >(which comes from Sumerian that means home of the gods) in fact there were >two Edens, one where man was originally created, the other where man was >cloned for slavery. For those who are familiar with Sumerian Mythology, >you know that they already had myths about the flood and about an earthly >Paradise, in fact, it seems the early sections of the Bible are just >convoluted interpretations of Sumerian Myth, the God Yahweh in fact is >described as the Sumerian deity Ishkur, and he had Moses create a >communication device for listening in (The Ark of the Covenant) the gods >are in fact divided between the Enkiite Gods, the Serpents, descemded from >Enki who created Mankind and then behind his brother Enlil's back gave them >the ability to reproduce, he also worked out the Processioanal Cycle and >was responsible for other feats such as the Sphinx and Stone henge, the >Enliliite Gods however served Enlil, who had claim to Earth by genetic >purity, Enki disagreed of course and this created a schism between >themselves and their children that has lasted to this very day, just how I >will convert this I have yet to decide but hopefully I will come up with >something, any ideas? > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 12:26:25 +1100 From: christopher.stevenson@aihw.gov.au (Chris Stevenson) Subject: Re: IN> Wandering Jew? 8< >See the movie "The Seventh Sign" for an example. Variants of this tale >put one of the Roman Centurions responsible for carrying out the >Crucifixion into this role, although how a Roman became the Wandering >*Jew* is rarely clear. > >Mark McKenzie A Roman auxilliary could easily be a Jew, as could any Jew who became a Roman citizen. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 16:34:52 +0000 (GMT) From: "The blue eyes, the leather, some guys just like leather" Subject: Re: IN> Character Problems Are Free Lilim considered renergades as they do not have a superior, or is a demon only a renegade if he/she had a superior and then ignored that superior? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 01:18:24 +0000 From: Julian Breen Subject: Re: IN> Re: Vampires >Is it me or is the IN NOMINE digest turning into the Vampire digest? > "Ah, the Celestials of the Night... What beautiful music they make!" - -- Vlad Jules }:[ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 02:20:47 +0000 From: Julian Breen Subject: Re: IN> Wandering Jew? Soviet writes >can anybody give some info on him? > There seems to be confusion about the guy's origins. Some legends identify him as Cartaphilus, a porter of Pontius Pilate who struck Jesus as he was led to his judgement (again, other stories say that it was as he bore his cross) bidding him to "go quicker". There is also the version that has the centurion, Gaius Cassius Longinus (he who thrust what was to become The Spear of Destiny into Christ's side), in this role. No matter which way you go for your game here's a few snippets I found that support the former story, yet are perfectly tweakable. :) In AD 1228, the Abbey at St.Alban's England was visited by an archbishop from Armenia who told the monks there that Cartaphilus had spoken to and even dined with him. Cartaphilus had been baptized by Ananias (who had also baptized the apostle Paul). His new name was Joseph. Throughout the Middle Ages reports of him were widespread. The descriptions of him was that he was generally impoverished, wearing little more than threadbare garments and going about barefoot. He was tall with long hair. He would accept no charity and would severely rebuke blasphemers. He had a remarkable knowledge of history(!) and could speak many languages. He *never* laughed. Sightings were made of him in Cracow and Moscow in 1601, Paris in 1604, Hamburg (1633) Brussels (1640) Leipzig (1642) and Munich (1721). In the 1800's he was travelling throughout Scandinavia. Apparently, the most recent sighting of him is in 1868, in Salt Lake City, Utah! I did some research a while back because I thought of using him in a game. Yet for me the intriguing question was this; What was Christ's purpose in condemning him to wait until the Second Coming? If Christ was prepared to forgive his killers as he hung upon the cross, does it not seem somewhat out of character that he should punish a man so for a single blow? - -- Jules - A Meandering Gentile ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 23:34:46 -0500 From: Soviet Subject: Re: IN> Preacher Campaign? Mark McKenzie wrote: > > > Having adapted an existing fictional universe to IN (in my case, the TV > series "American Gothic"), in retrospect I'd have had an easier time of > things taking the elements and ideas that I liked from my source > material and creating a separate, freestanding game that was not "In > Nomine in the Universe". Think about the story > and setting elements in both the comic and movies that appeal to you, > and try to implement them in a setting of your own. It's a bit more work > at the start, but it's easier going later. > -- > Hey thanks for your answer you have noted very important points on how to work the campaign, I'll implement some element from Preacher, I know I'll be deviating a lot from the In Nomine setting but I really like the concept of God quiting (if after all he really quit, perhaps it is just a test?).What I'm planning is perhaps some of the more powerful Archangels trying to keep it secret knowing that if Gods absence were to be known it could spark a civil war among the hosts of Heaven, but those that already know the secret have already started to create factions to prepare for when the moment comes, in Hell Lucifer has somehow felt the vacuum in the symphony and suspects something is amiss (strangely the absence of God has had minor effects on the symphony), on Earth The organization of Grail prepares for the Armageddon and discovers the truth that no matter who wins Armageddon Humanity will be screwed. If hell wins Humanity will be damned but If heaven wins it will be enslaved, so to wrest freedom for it self Humanity must war against Heaven and Hell. There are also some celestials that see the true potential of Humanity and have decided to help it and stand by its side in the upcoming war. I know its pretty quirky buts it is my preliminary draft....... -- "I want that power. By right, it is mine. For ultimate power is the ultimate destiny of Doom." Spectacular Spider-Man #159 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 19:49:24 PST From: "David Streeter" Subject: IN> Free Lilim >Are Free Lilim considered renergades as they do not have a superior, >or is a demon only a renegade if he/she had a superior and then >ignored that superior? While on the subject... When do Free Lilim get Lilith's rites? Only when they are directly working for her? Does this include when they are working off a starting Geas that she has traded to someone else? I'm GMing a Free Lilim, who will be appearing in both Angelic and Infernal parties. What cost (in terms of a Geas) should I assign Attunements and Rites? For example, I'll be running Feast of Blades soon, and at the end I'd like to give the Lilim the opportunity to gain a rite or attunement from the Demon Prince involved in that module. A Band attunement is normally 5 points - a Geas/2 is 6 points at character creation. A Geas/2 in exchange for a band attunement seems a little cheap, to me. And how much should rites be? Here I think a Geas/2 would be about right. I guess since the Free Lilim works off a Geas/3 per adventure (IMC), I'm giving the equivalent of 9 points (in addition to any experience - usually 2 - I award). Of course, once the Lilim is "in the black", he doesn't get this 9 points per adventure. I suppose if I can get the character to agree to a Geas/3 in exchange for attunement (in essence getting an attunement instead of working off a Geas), I'm reducing this to 5 points an adventure. I think I'm being a bit generous - still, I'm only starting my campaign, so I'll get a bit more miserly as time goes on. I think rewarding Free Lilim with rites/attunements from the lesser superiors (particularly those in the canonical supplements) is a good idea. Makes them a bit different from run of the mill Lilim. SurturZ Dissonant Elohite of Stone ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 23:59:23 -0500 From: "Mark McKenzie" Subject: Re: IN> Preacher Campaign? Soviet wrote: > - -snip- > > Hey thanks for your answer you have noted very important points on how to > work the campaign, I'll implement some element from Preacher, I know I'll be > deviating a lot from the In Nomine setting but I really like the > concept of God quiting (if after all he really quit, perhaps it is just a > test?). A possible take on that is assuming that Eli (In Nomine Archangel) is actually Yahweh/Jehovah/God/whathaveyou, slumming to see how Creation came out. This is vaguely possible without twisting canon IN too much, Eli's true nature and goals being somewhat vague. (Being that Eli's Word is "Creation", you can sort of justify this idea, if you're inclined to do so). - -snipping story ideas- All this can still work with "Eli-as-God". Eli wouldn't *tell* anyone what he was up to if this were the case, preferring (in that ineffable way) to set events in motion and see how they turn out. (Not simply playing dice with the universe, but occasionally Russian Roulette...) - -- Mark McKenzie E-mail: markadv@kinekom.com ICQ 7946364 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 23:51:07 -0500 (EST) From: Pee Kitty Subject: Re: IN> Free Lilim On Tue, 17 Mar 1998, David Streeter wrote: > When do Free Lilim get Lilith's rites? Only when they are directly > working for her? Does this include when they are working off a starting > Geas that she has traded to someone else? You only get Lilith's rites (AND her dissonance conditions - you never get one without the other!) when you are directly working for her. Remember that she only hires temps...she has *no* permanent Servitors. > I'm GMing a Free Lilim, who will be appearing in both Angelic and > Infernal parties. What cost (in terms of a Geas) should I assign > Attunements and Rites? Band attunements, 5 points. Relatively simple rites (or hard ones with multiessence payoffs), 5 points. Hard rites, 3 points. All IMHO. > A Band attunement is normally 5 points - a Geas/2 is 6 points at > character creation. A Geas/2 in exchange for a band attunement seems a > little cheap, to me. Incorrect. A Geas/2 is 0 points at character creation. Reread Geas...it is not a normal Discord, and can NOT be taken at character creation for extra points. > I think rewarding Free Lilim with rites/attunements from the lesser > superiors (particularly those in the canonical supplements) is a good > idea. Makes them a bit different from run of the mill Lilim. True. But don't feel that you "owe them" any rites or attunements for those Geasa. Not being bound to *any* Superior is a powerful position to be in...that's what the Geasa are for. Only award the Lilim an attunement if you would normally be giving her 5 character points for the adventure. Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! And finally, a special message to \|/ ____ \|/ anyone who thinks I give a damn... ~@-/ oO \-@~ /_( \__/ )_\ \__U_/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 17:27:25 +1100 From: christopher.stevenson@aihw.gov.au (Chris Stevenson) Subject: Re: IN> Wandering Jew? >8< >A Roman auxilliary could easily be a Jew, as could any Jew who became a >Roman citizen ... join the legions of Rome. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 23:08:43 -0500 From: "David C. Shadle" Subject: Re: IN> Wandering Jew? > can anybody give some info on him? Not much. He's supposed to be the Roman Legionaire that peirced Jesus' side with a spear. He was cursed to wander the earth until the 2nd Coming. I can't remember much, although I do remember the TV show "Roar" had an episode that focused on him. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 18:35:57 From: Peter Frederick Subject: IN> Variant Campaigns (Was Preacher Campaign) Dear List odd thought popped into my head yesterday. IN/Supers cross over. It was a perfectly ordinary War. Heaven and Hell struggling to save Humanity from each other and themselves all the while ignoring the vast bulk of those they struggled for. And then Vapula released the WildCard virus. That's as far as inspiration went so far, but it looks good for lots of work and GM'ing avoidance :) . Regards, Peter. Reply to peterf@wr.com.au May the Goddess shelter you in the palm of her hand until we meet again. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 23:55:50 PST From: "David Streeter" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Free Lilim Pee Kitty meowed: >You only get Lilith's rites (AND her dissonance conditions - you never get >one without the other!) when you are directly working for her. Remember >that she only hires temps...she has *no* permanent Servitors. Yeah, but what I really wanted to know is whether Free Lilim get her rites/dissonance in the following situations: a> Working off a starting Geas that Lilith herself has called in b> Working off a starting Geas that Lilith has traded to another being >Band attunements, 5 points. Relatively simple rites (or hard ones with >multiessence payoffs), 5 points. Hard rites, 3 points. All IMHO. My answer to this is a bit long, so here's the skinny: * Rites are worth approximately 3 character points per essence generated * The Geas of a starting Free Lilim is worth around 1 point per level. So if a new Free Lilim is bargaining with a Superior, the superior should expect a Geas/3 for a rite, or Geas/5 for a choir/band attunement. A bit more or less due to role-playing, of course. Read on if you want to know how I came up with these numbers... >Band attunements, 5 points. Relatively simple rites (or hard ones with >multiessence payoffs), 5 points. Hard rites, 3 points. All IMHO. OK, but how do these translate to Levels of Geas? I don't want the Free Lilim to be able to simply buy attunements and rites with character points. I think this more-or-less goes against canon. IMC the ONLY way for the Free Lilim to get rites & attunements will be to trade for them, typically trading Geases. Thus I need to know whether how much a band attunement is worth is Geas levels. >Incorrect. A Geas/2 is 0 points at character creation. Reread Geas...it is >not a normal Discord, and can NOT be taken at character creation for extra >points. Okay, fair enough, but the estimate of each level of Geas being worth 3 points is plausible, since most discords are worth 3 points per level at character creation. The temporary nature of Geases, though, cheapens them, I guess. Actually, it should cheapen them a *lot*, now I think of it. Here's the canonical maths of the situation: 1 Force = 10 or 12 points Choir/Band Attunements = 5 points Servitor Attunements = 10 points Starting Discords = 3 points/level Songs = 1 point/level Skills = 1 point/level Rites = unknown Geas = unknown VALUE OF GEASES - --------------- A Free Lilim starts with 9 x Geas/3, owed to Lilith "one for each force". This would indicate that a Geas is worth 10/3 = 3.33 or 12/3 = 4 points per level, which is seems too high. A Geas should be worth less to the character than a normal starting discord, since you can get rid of it much easier than other discords. HOWEVER, to the holder of the Geas, it could be worth quite a bit, depending on the power of the Lilim. For example a Geas/1 from Lilith herself would be worth heaps (The service of a Demon Princess for a whole hour?). Let's say that for a starting character each level of Geas is nominally worth 1 point, increasing to 3 points per level for a word-bound Free Lilim. Actually, I don't think a Free Lilim CAN be word bound. VALUE OF RITES - -------------- You can't buy rites. However, a reliquary costs 3 points a level and generates 1 essence per day. No act is required for a reliquary, but it can be lost or destroyed. Kobal's attunements are basically rites, but can be worth two essence if the demon can laugh in the victim's face afterwards. Thus these conditionally 2 essence rites are worth five points. So let's say rites are nominally worth 3 points per essence generated, a bit more or less depending on the difficulty of the rite. CONCLUSION - ---------- When a free Lilim at the end of an adventure has pleased a superior, that superior might offer a reward (attunement, rite, song etc) in exchange for future service of that Free Lilim. The rule of thumb is that for starting characters, the Demon Prince will agree to provide a reward to a value in character points identical to the level of Geas agreed to by the Lilim. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 00:05:11 PST From: "David Streeter" Subject: IN> In Nomine Homo Superior >odd thought popped into my head yesterday. IN/Supers cross over. > >It was a perfectly ordinary War. Heaven and Hell struggling to save >Humanity from each other and themselves all the while ignoring the vast >bulk of those they struggled for. And then Vapula released the WildCard >virus. >That's as far as inspiration went so far, but it looks good for lots of >work and GM'ing avoidance :) . YES. Actually, I'd thought of how you would go about "In Nomine Hero" i.e. a Champions conversion. Essence would become END, reliquaries would be END Batteries, etc. I figured that In Nomine would lose much of its flavour if you translated it to a generic system like GURPS or Hero. I haven't seen the GURPS version, so I can't say for sure, but I have a sneaking suspicion that you'd end up with Angels and Demons just being additional sorts of characters. You could run a game where all the PCs were Celestials, and almost all NPCs were supers, though. Super Soldiers? Chuckle. SurturZ Habbalite of Factions, Demon of Constructive Criticism ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 10:41:08 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Character Problems On Tue, Mar 17, 1998 at 07:21:37PM +0000, Steve Jessop wrote: > > If a Seraph makes a promise, with no intention of keeping it, that is one > note of dissonance there and then for the lie. If he makes a promise, then > later changes his mind, that *might* be one dissonance. If circumstances > dictate that the promise is somehow escapable, no dissonance at all. > What do you mean by "escapable"? Personally, I'd probably interpret it as being breakable if new knowledge comes to light that alters what's reasonable for the Seraph to do. For example, a Seraph might promise to help a friend when that friend is in trouble, and then discover that that friend wants to blow up a school. I'd consider that that knowledge should allow the Seraph to change his/her mind, since it's reasonable to assume that when the promise was made, it was sincere. (It also blurs the lines between Seraphim and Balseraphs further. I find that desirable, though others mightn't.) > Basically, a Serpah when he promises something ought to say 'if I can'. > Otherwise, he will gain dissonance if circumstances make it impossible. > (Like, if somone else does it first, or whatever). > Seraphim should say things like "if I can", but that's mean. They're stating intentions, after all, not making predictions. > The Malakim shouldn't say 'if I can'. When they make an Oath, that's it. > The business about 'destroy evil if possible' always struck me as > unpleasant legalese, Legalese is important, especially for Malakite lawyers. > And they gain a note of dissonance *each time* they break an Oath, rather > than just the once. > Absolutely right. > I let Seraphim get away with being picky about the letter of what they > say, but with Malakim it is very much the spirit of their words that > matters. > Actually, I tend to think that the letter of an Oath is very important for Malakim as well, and that the spirit of a promise is more important for Cherubim. (Cherubim have problems with breaking promises too.) Actually, the most bound, IMO, are Servitors of the Sword, who get dissonance for every order they ever receive which they break in spirit or letter. That is so massively unpleasant it hardly bears thinking about. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "as for their relations with others, that is a long story, but it can be expressed shortly and clearly by saying that of all people we know the Spartans are most conspicuous for believing that what they like doing is honourable and what suits their interests is just." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 12:47:26 +0000 From: "Ad." Subject: IN> Re: Distubances > JIMHO, for simplicity's sake, I'd say it ought to work as a continuous (but > non-cumulative) disturbance of the discord level. > > Yes, disturbance calculations are too complicated: but they ought to be > simplified over the whole system, instead of complicating other rules to > avoid the disturbance formula. Me, I use 1/20 mile (88 yds. 264 ft) per > disturbance level rolled against Perception + Celestial Forces. > I agree the disturbance rules are impossible but I simplify them in a completely different manner. I rarely roll dice for disturbances. If something loud happens in the same region as the PC's, manifesting, killing, entropy, thunder or possesion then all celestials hear it and get a rough idea of what happened. If something quiet happens in the characters immediate vicinity then it is also heard. I feel this gives the right atmosphere and relatively similiar results. It also means that it is practically impossible to act in a celestial manner without being heard which should make the characters cautious. Oh, and I need some advice, okay, how should you resolve it when a shedite sets of a nuclear warhead and destroys a small city? By the proper rules it should be heard by an average celestial 30 light minutes away with echoes lasting several decades (conservative estimates). I think this is a little extreme, but I'm going to be continueing that game soon so I better sort it out. I like the idea of every celestial being able to track that annoying shedite by the echos for a long time (serves him right for being a 5 Cel Force, 12 Will, 6 Fighting, celestial combat character.) Adam - -- "The seas boiled and the living envied the dead. All was shattered and all but memory lost, and one memory above all others, of him who brought the Shadow and the Breaking of the World. And him they named Dragon." - - from: The Breaking of the World, Author Unknown, Fourth Age. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 12:03:30 +0000 From: Julian Breen Subject: IN> Fallen We just got this movie here in the UK, and it's well worth seeing. For once Hollywood managed to handle a film like this competantly. It's not overly spectacular, not brimmed with special effects, but has *a good story* and I was totally engrossed for the two hours or so that it lasts. It is also, completely relevent to In Nomine. In the film, Azazel, a shedite (wasn't he supposed to be a grigori?) can possess animals as well as humans...I wonder if this is something that we shall see in the IPG? Expanded resonance perhaps? And... whilst I'm on this subject... :) Does a celestial possessing a human still count *as* a human for purposes of a shedite wishing to possess it? Reason for asking is that damage dealt to a kyrios host makes noise in the Symphony, implying that it is. Does the same hold true for somebody using the Song of Possession? - -- Jules - Calabite of Popcorn Buckets jules@bigjules.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 13:15:24 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Re: Distubances On Wed, Mar 18, 1998 at 12:47:26PM +0000, Ad. wrote: > > I feel this gives the right atmosphere and relatively similiar results. > It also means that it is practically impossible to act in a celestial > manner without being heard which should make the characters cautious. > Actually, all you have to do is get hostile interventions on your Perception roll. (In a Con, he blinded me Celestially for the entire session. That gun nut Balseraph blew up a truck and I didn't hear anything.) But more seriously, ruleslawyer though I am, I am not going to use the disturbance rules for far away stuff if I ever GM. It's just too much of a headache, though I might to a table certain round numbers. > Oh, and I need some advice, okay, how should you resolve it when a shedite > sets of a nuclear warhead and destroys a small city? Very off-topic, but Colin gave a little talk last night on just how difficult it is to set off nukes these days. Apparently the way he did it (teleporting a grenade into the reaction chamber) wouldn't work. Apparently nuking nukes doesn't work. I thought it was great that that was the session for which the Servitor of Technology didn't show up. Very...ironic. > By the proper rules it should be heard by an average celestial 30 light > minutes away with echoes lasting several decades (conservative estimates). > I think this is a little extreme, but I'm going to be continueing that > game soon so I better sort it out. Oh? I thought that was going on the back burner. > I like the idea of every celestial being able to track that annoying > shedite by the echos for a long time (serves him right for being a 5 Cel > Force, 12 Will, 6 Fighting, celestial combat character.) > And apart from a Vessel, nothing like that happened to me, and it was entirely to my benefit. And I was able to say (after I recovered from Trauma) "Yes, Boss, I manipulated him into doing it, so no-one can blame us." Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "as for their relations with others, that is a long story, but it can be expressed shortly and clearly by saying that of all people we know the Spartans are most conspicuous for believing that what they like doing is honourable and what suits their interests is just." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 11:34:59 EST From: MarkDEddy Subject: Re: IN> Wandering Jew? Hmm... looks like someone's mixing legends again. The Wandering Jew was, in many of the legends, one of those who cursed Jesus while he was on the cross. In a show of irritation, Jesus replied 'You curse me now, but until you bless me you shall not die." And he didn't. Another version of the wandering Jew legend is that the Wandering Jew is Lazarus of Bethany, who Jesus did such a good job of raising from the dead that he never has died again. Note: None of the 'traditional' wandering jew legends say that he was one of the Roman soldiers. Now, on to the Roman soldier Legend. In the Bible, it says that the Centurion cried out, 'Surely this was the Son of God!' when the events around Jesus' death occured. He was identified as Caius Longinus, who also pierced Jesus' side. He was, in legend, later baptized. He then moved to Britian, where his descendants became the Fisher-King. The Fisher-King was the guardian of both the Spear of Longinus and the Holy Grail. And now we're getting into Arthurian legends. Mark (But boy is it fun!) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 11:20:50 EST From: MarkDEddy Subject: IN> Dies Irae: a jumprope chant? You know you went to a hardline Parochial school when: Your idea of a good jumprope rhyme is the Dies Irae... (to the 'tune' of 'Cinderella dressed in yella' ) DIes IRę, DIes ILla, SOLvet SAEClum IN favILLA, TESte DAVid CUM SibYLLA...... Just thought I'd share something that would scare everyone. Most appropriate for young Malakim. Mark(Just don't ask me for a translation...) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 98 12:26 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Character Problems >Are Free Lilim considered renergades as they do not have a superior, or is a demon only a renegade if he/she had a superior and then ignored that superior? Free Lilim are not, by definition, renegades, though they can become such by crossing the wrong people, or doing anything Asmodeus dislikes and considers renegade behavior. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 08:35:39 -0900 From: Scott Tengelin Subject: Re: IN> Re: Campaign Ideas At 08:52 PM 3/17/98 +0900, you wrote: >... once I got on this list I saw people had all sorts of ideas, like >converting In Nomine to the Kabbalah, to Buddhism, Hinduism, changing >Archangel Words, etc so I thought, why not have a go at it, anyway, in some >cases it would be simple, like In Nomine Spawn, or In Nomine Star Wars (the >sci fi parts would be difficult but you've got the angel demon thing set >with the dark side and the light side of the Force) Jedi could be Soliders >of God, Sith could be Soliders of Hell, etc, but I guess a more challening >notion came to me, based as it was on a recent book I read, about the whole >ancient astronaut theory, which may be directly responsible for a large >number of our myths, the book was called 'Gods of the New Millennium and I >recommend reading it.... Hi, all. I'm new to the list. Anyway, for my 2 cents, I get the feeling that all religions are represented in the Heaven of In Nomine (which is where a lot of conflict can come from in a campaign perspective). And that would probably mean the "ancient astronaut" theory is there as well. Maybe somewhere there could be Hubbard, the Arch-angel of Ancient Astronauts? For that matter, maybe there could also be Sagan, the Arch-angel of Atheists... or maybe a Demon Prince.... (No disrespect to Dr. Sagan or Mr. Hubbard intended of course. :-) - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Scott Tengelin Claymore Dragon -=(UDIC)=- Slyfeind Apollo of the Elves of Spiritwood (An Ultima Online guild) http://www.angelfire.com/wa/slyfeind - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 98 12:42 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Free Lilim >When do Free Lilim get Lilith's rites? Only when they are directly >working for her? Does this include when they are working off a starting >Geas that she has traded to someone else? This is in the FAQ -- they get Lilith's Rites *and* dissonance conditions as long as they don't bind to a Prince. >I'm GMing a Free Lilim, who will be appearing in both Angelic and >Infernal parties. What cost (in terms of a Geas) should I assign >Attunements and Rites? There will be some guidelines in a future book. I use: Geas/3: 1 character point (i.e., a Song or skill) Geas/4: 3 character points (i.e., a Rite or vessel/1) Geas/5: 5 character points (i.e., Band Attunement) Geas/6: 10 character points (i.e., a Force or Servitor Attunement) >A Band attunement is normally 5 points - a Geas/2 is 6 points at >character creation. A Geas/2 in exchange for a band attunement seems a >little cheap, to me. Geases have *no* character point value at character creation -- you can't get them then. Free Lilim geases don't count for character points either -- this should be in the FAQ, but doesn't appear to be.... >And how much should rites be? Here I think a Geas/2 would be about >right. Mummies can buy a Rite for 3 character points, I'd charge a Geas/4. Rites aren't all *that* common, that a mere Geas/2 ought to buy one, I think. >I guess since the Free Lilim works off a Geas/3 per adventure (IMC), I'm >giving the equivalent of 9 points (in addition to any experience - >usually 2 - I award). Of course, once the Lilim is "in the black", he >doesn't get this 9 points per adventure. Since they don't get 9 points for the Geas/3, they aren't really working off that much, either.... >I think I'm being a bit generous - still, I'm only starting my campaign, >so I'll get a bit more miserly as time goes on. It's usually easier to start out miserly and get more generous later -- fewer complaints that way. - ---Walter ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #683 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.