From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Fri Mar 20 11:25:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA06642 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 11:25:15 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id LAA31471 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 11:03:49 -0600 Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 11:03:49 -0600 Message-Id: <199803201703.LAA31471@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #686 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Friday, March 20 1998 Volume 01 : Number 686 In this digest: IN> Blood by Michael Moorcock Re: IN> The Endless Re: IN> Haagenti's Menu Re: IN> The Endless Re: IN> The Endless Re: IN> vessels? Re: IN> The Endless IN> More On Campaign Linking Re: Shedim and Possession (Re: IN> Fallen) Re: Shedim and Possession (Re: IN> Fallen) IN> Prophecies Re: IN> Haagenti's Menu Re: IN> Haagenti's Menu RE: IN> Haagenti's Menu Re: IN> Wandering Jew? Re: IN> Prophecies Re: IN> Prophecies IN> Exorcism and Limbo IN> Rewards and character evolution IN> Re: IN- vessels? Re: IN> The Endless Re: IN> Anti-Puritans Re: IN> The Endless Re: IN> Rewards and character evolution Re: Rewards and character evolution (was Re: IN> Re: IN- Free Lilim) Re: IN> Re: IN- vessels? Re: IN> Re: IN- vessels? Re: IN> Re: IN- vessels? Re: IN> Re: IN- vessels? IN> Sharon's Adventures in Wonderland Re: IN> Anti-Puritans ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 16:18:16 -0500 From: Sean Michael Whipkey Subject: IN> Blood by Michael Moorcock Has anyone from the list considered incorporating any aspects of _Blood_ by Michael Moorcock (from a short story in _Confederacy of the Dead_ called, IIRC, "Colour") into their In Nomine game? Or has anyone here even read it? I'd forgotten the Heaven/Hell aspects of the books (indeed, the third novel is supposed to be called _The War Between the Angels_). The battles between the Singularity and the Chaos Engineers are mirrors to the battles between Heaven and Hell, with Heaven (seemingly) being the faceless lawful Singularity and Hell become the individualistic freewheeling Chaos Engineers. It's set (sort of) on an alternate Earth, where the Union lost the Civil War but the slaves are part of the degenerate white race, where "color" is mined for energy and an experimental drill through the multiverse opened up the Biloxi Fault, a huge hole in space-time, the place where there's enough energy for anything but it cannot be transmitted beyond it's boundaries. Electricity elsewhere doesn't work "right" anymore. It's a very bizarre book - though, IMHO, very interesting. High tech, yet anachronistic, *very* alternate. SeanMike - -- Sean Michael Whipkey, smw4s@virginia.edu Weldon Cooper Center for Public Service, Publications Div. 804/924-4185 voicenet, 804/982-5536 fax http://www.virginia.edu/~cpserv/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 16:27:46 -0500 From: "Mark McKenzie" Subject: Re: IN> The Endless I'd agree with all of Earl's comments in principle (the Endless would be Avatars, I suppose); however, adding NPCs of that power-level to a game may not be the best plan. Not much you can do to or about them except put up with them - difficult for players who already have Superiors to deal with. Adding Avatars means not only can the players not deal with them, the Superiors can't either. Other than trying to play on the personality of an Endless (at the risk of a Really Bad Thing (tm) if you screw up), what would be the purpose? Or is that enough right there? - -- Mark McKenzie E-mail: markadv@kinekom.com ICQ 7946364 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 16:35:18 -0500 From: "Kirt A. Dankmyer -- aka Loki" Subject: Re: IN> Haagenti's Menu At 12:51 PM 3/19/98 +0000, you wrote: >So. Haagenti has devoured quite a few rivals on his way to the top and >we now find that he ate Mariel, Princess of Oblivion (it's in the LR). Yes. Now it can truely be said that through Haagenti's maw lies Oblivion. -Loki - -- Kirt "Loki" Dankmyer PGP key avail. My opinions are my own. love * Eris * RPGs * Anime * Magick * Carroll * techno * hats * cats * Dada I waked, she fled, and day brought back my night. --Milton ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 16:54:34 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> The Endless Mark McKenzie wrote: > I'd agree with all of Earl's comments in principle (the Endless would > be Avatars, I suppose); however, adding NPCs of that power-level to a > game may not be the best plan. Not much you can do to or about them > except put up with them - difficult for players who already have > Superiors to deal with. I think you could use them in a game of high political tension, where the Superiors are already going to be on stage a lot and the PCs are under intense scrutiny, at least some of the time. The Endless then add a whole sticky wad of complexity to the politics. If PCs encounter one of the Endless by themselves, it *is* a lot like coping with a more-or-less neutral Superior from your own side. But if the PCs encounter an Endless and a Superior from their side both at once (say Dream and Blandine together), the PCs have to pussyfoot around a situation where two Superiors are not from the same side but not from opposite sides either. The Endless also upset the Cold War polarity of the situation. An Endless can be very hardnosed to an individual Superior, but won't risk stirring up Lucifer or the whole Seraphim Council. They may freely annoy individual Superiors and stymie Superior agendas unless they are backed by the united cause of Good or Evil. Random plot idea: a string of freaky dream-related events plague the PC servitors of Blandine, who dutifully report it to her. Time passes, while the GM finishes up some other plot thread. Then Blandine calls the PCs up to the Tower and tells them that she's been told the cause of the problem: "One of the Greater Arcana has gone missing." "One of the who?" "One of the greater servants of Morpheus, ethereals but not gods or myth-creatures, not shaped by mortal dreams. Instead, they do the shaping. Usually, they stay out there in the Deep Dreaming. Apparently, one has decided to take a vacation on Earth. Or somewhere near it. Allow me to introduce a ... colleague." And a gaunt, white-skinned stranger in a black cloak, with disshelved hair, walks in and says {Good evening} with a black dialog balloon. Morpheus then proceeds to give the alarming particulars about this AWOL arcanum, then he and Blandine bicker about what to do about it. For a real laugh, Morpheus could summon Beleth for additional consultation, and you know how thick the angst gets if B&B get together. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 17:02:56 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> The Endless Another possible use of the Endless is to provide orthogonal plot lines, lines unconnected with the immediate clash of good and evil. Very disrupting to, say, competing servitors of Mammon and Marc to suddenly be swept up in, say, a quest by Desire for Delirium, who has gone missing, and we don't want to repeat anything like what happened to Dream. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 17:56:31 -0500 From: Andrew Frades Subject: Re: IN> vessels? Soviet wrote: > > Okay I have a couple of questions about vessels: > > 1) when a celestial creates a vessel,does he really creates it?or does > he just posses a human that fits his vessels description? If he > creates it then how does one explain the background for it,especially > those with high role and status? dothey just appear without no one > being the wiser? Celestials do not make their own Vessels. Only Superiors can do that. As far as background goes, I think that the Superior would make the Vessel, define the role, and write it into the Symphony so that the mortals are none the wiser. > 2) on vessel death:ok when a vessel dies were does the character gets > the points to buy a new one? does he gets the exact amount of points > used in the first vessel or does he has to put new points for > it(losing those of the original vessel)? Look to the FAQ on the Steve Jackson page. If you want the skinny all I can say is it depends upon the servant's standing with their Superior. Andrew ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 18:01:41 -0500 From: Andrew Frades Subject: Re: IN> The Endless Soviet wrote: > > Hi,You must have guess it by now , I'm a huge fan of DC Vertigo andwas > planning on adding the Endless(Death,Dream,Destiny,etc).. for my > campaign.... > Okay How could the Endless be madeinto the In Nomine Setting,would > they just replace the Archangels of the same word or would they be > powerful Ethereals(or maybe both)? Honestly, my opinion would be that they don't fit too well with the IN universe. Basically they are too powerful to be Ethereals and don't fit well with the scheme of Heaven/Hell in IN. If you really want to do this I would make them separate from Heaven/Hell and eliminate any AA/DP whose words conflict (i.e. Blandine/Beleth, Saminga, and others including probably Yves/Kronos). Another option would be to give the Endless dominion over their respective domains and make the AA/DP very influential there but beneath them (i.e. Beleth/Blandine have their realms in the Marches, but Dream is supreme). Andrew ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 16:13:02 PST From: "Chris Crowe" Subject: IN> More On Campaign Linking i don't think they should be interconnected DIRECTLY (as in, the characters meeting or interacting, although the possibility would be nice), so much as linking the plots of individual Superiors. I.E.--> if i decide that Baal wants to step the progression of the War by holding a few large scale brawls in remote places, then eveyone else drop hints to this effect in their own games, or even reveal it directly if characters are serving Baal. When Uriel returns, obviously some drastic events will take place on all three planes, so we can coordinate some of these events. If someone wants to go so far as to "kill-off" a Superior, then we could all discuss its potential and details. As Nathaniel posted, if at any time a particular GM "wants out", so be it, noone will be bound to use this linkage, it will just be a resource. i want to do it more to ensure that there aren't whole flocks of Angels of Lead-Free Paint or different Superiors with the same Word. i've seen references on this list to Charon as the Angel of Death, but what i've read and "known" for a while says the Angel of Death to be Azrael. For those interested i have a neat background story invovling my Malakim of Destiny, Krowe--(soon to be Arch-)Angel of Redemption. to some it up, he has 36 forces and was nearly an Archangel, when for an unknown reason he went underground in Limbo and hasn't been heard from since, though secretly leaving 9 Forces in a corporeal vessel (this would be my actual character). this will be worked into my campaign once it gets started and eventually the whole story will be revealled and my players will (hopefully) find out how to get Krowe's remaining 27 Forces to return from Limbo. i'll write the whole background story if anyone wants to read it. i assume their are others of you who have Wordbound characters or Archangels in your own games and this is the main thing i want to be constant between our games. Obviously, those who have created these wordbound celestials will have final say as to their doings in the world. of course if someone REALLY doesn't want to listen then there's no way to enforce our will, but hey, that's life for ya. any Questions? Krowe ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 20:54:20 +0900 From: Simon Hailes Subject: Re: Shedim and Possession (Re: IN> Fallen) At 03:03 PM 19/03/98 -0500, you wrote: >On Thu, 19 Mar 1998, Julian Breen wrote: > >> >If you got a Prince of the right Word (Fallen Jordi!!), then that >> >would be where Shedim possessing animals would show up, probably. >> >> Caim - Prince of Beasts! Anybody wanna do a write up? >> (looks hopefully t'ward Hitherby :) ) > >Check out the INC. There's a nice prince of Beasts there, Beezlebub. > > > >Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian > Meow! >And finally, a special message to \|/ ____ \|/ >anyone who thinks I give a damn... ~@-/ oO \-@~ > /_( \__/ )_\ > \__U_/ > > >Uh, where does it say, Canon wise, that Shedim can't possess animals? eh? in my games they can, it's like that raven from Snow White, it really can steal your soul if you look in to its eyes, oh yeah, Fallen Jordi, No Way! Outcast Jordi, there you could have some fun! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 20:59:42 -0500 (EST) From: Pee Kitty Subject: Re: Shedim and Possession (Re: IN> Fallen) On Thu, 19 Mar 1998, Simon Hailes wrote: > >Uh, where does it say, Canon wise, that Shedim can't possess animals? eh? > in my games they can, it's like that raven from Snow White, it really can > steal your soul if you look in to its eyes, oh yeah, Fallen Jordi, No Way! > Outcast Jordi, there you could have some fun! In the main book. I don't have it with me, so I can't cite references, but it states clearly that Shedim can only possess humans. It's also in the FAQ. Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! And finally, a special message to \|/ ____ \|/ anyone who thinks I give a damn... ~@-/ oO \-@~ /_( \__/ )_\ \__U_/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 21:02:33 -0500 (EST) From: Sheep Boy Subject: IN> Prophecies Hello, I'm fairly new to the list as well, but the mention of the Prophecy movies caught my interest. As a matter of fact, that is the very premise I'm using for the campaign I will be starting soon. I thought that if Soviet was interested we could start collaberating, as I've already put a good amount of work into the world. However, as it is also not exactly hard core In Nomine, I thought it might be done better in private e-mail, with cc's to whoever would be interested of course. Unless, of course, the list would be interested, and that's mainly why I'm writing this e-mail, to see if the thread is best carried on here or not. Also, the worlds may end up being completely different, as my premise is only based on the Prophecy movies, and has no DC influence. (Although I have to say the idea of the Endless showing up sounds VERY interesting. :) As for myself, I'm not a very experienced GM, and even less experienced at In Nomine itself, so I'm keeping a lookout for all those helpful tips and ideas that keep popping up. Great list, everyone! Whoa, rambling again. :) - Rob stavro@interport.net http://www.users.interport.net/~stavro/ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Everybody talks about apathy, but nobody does anything about it. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 21:22:17 EST From: Heretic103 Subject: Re: IN> Haagenti's Menu In a message dated 98-03-19 09:26:21 EST, you write: << So. Haagenti has devoured quite a few rivals on his way to the top and we now find that he ate Mariel, Princess of Oblivion (it's in the LR). Who *was* the Prince of Sloth and did Haagenti also eat the Princes/Princesses of Envy, Pride, and Wrath? >> ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 21:23:34 EST From: Heretic103 Subject: Re: IN> Haagenti's Menu In a message dated 98-03-19 09:26:21 EST, you write: << So. Haagenti has devoured quite a few rivals on his way to the top and we now find that he ate Mariel, Princess of Oblivion (it's in the LR). Who *was* the Prince of Sloth and did Haagenti also eat the Princes/Princesses of Envy, Pride, and Wrath? >> I always assumed that those rivals were not all princes, instead maybe some were only word bound demons that competed with him ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 18:31:51 -0800 From: "Steven Feldon (Exchange)" Subject: RE: IN> Haagenti's Menu Meserach. Http://www.serv.net/~srf/encyc.htm has my list. It's not up to date, as I haven't had the Liber long enough to have that data incorporated, but it still has all the stuff known from before that. . . . steve -----Original Message----- From: Heretic103 [SMTP:Heretic103@aol.com] Sent: Thursday, March 19, 1998 6:22 PM To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Subject: Re: IN> Haagenti's Menu In a message dated 98-03-19 09:26:21 EST, you write: << So. Haagenti has devoured quite a few rivals on his way to the top and we now find that he ate Mariel, Princess of Oblivion (it's in the LR). Who *was* the Prince of Sloth and did Haagenti also eat the Princes/Princesses of Envy, Pride, and Wrath? >> ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 02:45:33 +0000 From: Julian Breen Subject: Re: IN> Wandering Jew? > >Another version of the wandering Jew legend is that the Wandering Jew is >Lazarus of Bethany, who Jesus did such a good job of raising from the dead >that he never has died again. As a side line, there is an excellent short story entitled "Lazarus" by one Leonid Andreyev. It continues the story of him after his resurrection. (It was in an anthology of horror stories and yes, I have the ISBN if anybody happens to be *that* interested) - -- Jules ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 23:07:11 -0500 From: Soviet Subject: Re: IN> Prophecies Excellent count me in , And the Idea of the Endless stiring some political conflict between AA & DP is a concept that is definitvely worth trying (after all what would be a cooler story than Lucifer quiting his post and closing Hell). Sheep Boy wrote: > Hello, > > I'm fairly new to the list as well, but the mention of the Prophecy movies > caught my interest. As a matter of fact, that is the very premise I'm > using for the campaign I will be starting soon. I thought that if Soviet > was interested we could start collaberating, as I've already put a good > amount of work into the world. However, as it is also not exactly hard > core In Nomine, I thought it might be done better in private e-mail, with > cc's to whoever would be interested of course. Unless, of course, the > list would be interested, and that's mainly why I'm writing this e-mail, > to see if the thread is best carried on here or not. > > Also, the worlds may end up being completely different, as my premise is > only based on the Prophecy movies, and has no DC influence. (Although I > have to say the idea of the Endless showing up sounds VERY interesting. :) > > As for myself, I'm not a very experienced GM, and even less experienced at > In Nomine itself, so I'm keeping a lookout for all those helpful tips and > ideas that keep popping up. Great list, everyone! > > Whoa, rambling again. :) > > - Rob > > stavro@interport.net http://www.users.interport.net/~stavro/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Everybody talks about apathy, but nobody does anything about it. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- - -- "I want that power. By right, it is mine. For ultimate power is the ultimate destiny of Doom." Spectacular Spider-Man #159 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 22:56:22 -0500 From: "Mark McKenzie" Subject: Re: IN> Prophecies Soviet wrote: > what would be a cooler story than Lucifer quiting > his post and closing Hell). > Maybe an IN variant based on James Blish's "Black Easter/Day After Judgement" duology? - -- Mark McKenzie E-mail: markadv@kinekom.com ICQ 7946364 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 00:05:43 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Exorcism and Limbo >>>It seems to me there are two basic possibilities for an exorcized celestial: either they are forced into the Celestial plane or they are cast into Limbo (and, in Heaven or Hell, their Heart shatters). I like the latter because it gives so much more incentive to avoid exorcism.<<< There may be some Songs in the Songbook which do either or both of those things... - -David, Songbook editor ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 22:56:32 PST From: "David Streeter" Subject: IN> Rewards and character evolution >>inexperienced characters improve more quickly than experienced >>characters. This means if a character dies or is replaced etc the > >I've actually never had a problem with this in a game -- most of the >systems I play in, a character's contribution to the game and >survivability generally have more to do with the character design than >with the number of experience points they have. Well, in GURPS, Champions, In Nomine and most modern RPGs, experience tends to be fairly linear, with characters not improving THAT much beyond their starting power level. AD&D is the only system I've played where a starting character is extremely weak and improves rapidly. I wasn't actually talking about survivability, since I usually GM such that characters can't die unless they are really trying to (although I try not to let the players know that). I was talking more about disparity in power level between a new character, and characters that have been around for a few years. You want a new/replacement character to be of a comparable power level to older characters fairly quickly, or they'll feel like a fifth wheel. Of course, older characters should always be a little bit better than newer characters. I like the AD&D system where a new character will basically end up a level behind older characters when the older characters go up a level (since each level needs approximately double the previous levels XP). It's very artificial of course, which is why modern games don't tend to use such systems. >Also note that IN's reward system is *very* vague in canon, and >characters will tend to get rewarded by Superiors in very different ways >for the same actions. Thus, there's a lot of GM flexibility in >balancing characters by differential rewards. True. >GM- (as opposed to Superior-)awarded experience points should probably >be kept to a minimum. This is probably best for game flavor, anyway, >though I admit I tend to just give out points, at least so far, not >having actually finished my first plot line, so I don't want to drag >Superiors into the middle of things. I'm planning to award 2 character points per session, with the possibility of 3 for good roleplaying, etc. I find my players like their characters to evolve fairly rapidly (in a game mechanics sense). When I'm a player, I do too. In a sense, as a GM, it doesn't really matter how much XP you give out, because you can always beef up the bad guys accordingly. You could give out 30 points a session if you multiplied the bad guys by 5 every session. I guess it comes down to how often you play. If you play once a week, you'll be giving out less XP per session than if you play once every three months. SurturZ Dissonant Elohite of Stone ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 23:10:23 PST From: "David Streeter" Subject: IN> Re: IN- vessels? >Okay I have a couple of questions about vessels: > >1) when a celestial creates a vessel,does he really creates it?or does >he just posses a human that fits his vessels description? If he >creates it then how does one explain the background for it,especially >those with high role and status? dothey just appear without no one >being the wiser? Vessels are created by a superior (however, in "Heaven and Hell", (I think), you can create vessels if you go to Limbo). A vessel with a high role and status can come about two ways: one, the celestial can spend a lot of time in his vessel and work on making a role, by interacting with humans and doing non-celestial things (going to work, making friends, etc). Two, and much easier, is to assume the identity of a human who died. If the human was killed "before his time" by celestial intervention, so much the better. For example, say you are a Demon of Technology who wants to be Bill Gates. You'd kill him with a poisoned cream pie in the face, do a song of form on your vessel so that you look like him, and viola! Role/6 Status/6! Of course, many would say that Microsoft Internet Explorer is evidence that this has already happened. (actually, I quite like Microsoft products, but I owe a few favours to Kobal) >2) on vessel death:ok when a vessel dies were does the character gets >the points to buy a new one? does he gets the exact amount of points >used in the first vessel or does he has to put new points for >it(losing those of the original vessel)? He should put new points in, theoretically. But it's really up to the GM, since once you have no vessel, it's hard to get more character points. SurturZ Habbalite of Factions, Angel of Constructive Criticism ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 23:36:23 -0800 From: Armand Subject: Re: IN> The Endless >Hi,You must have guess it by now , I'm a huge fan of DC Vertigo andwas >planning on adding the Endless(Death,Dream,Destiny,etc).. for my >campaign.... >Okay How could the Endless be madeinto the In Nomine Setting,would >they just replace the Archangels of the same word or would they be >powerful Ethereals(or maybe both)? The Endless are greater than any thing Celestial or Ethereal. They are ideas that have existed before all things, and as all things. While you could name certain of the AA's after the Endless, you then have to reference that with all the angelic interaction that occurs in "Seasons in the Mist" and other references to the Heavenly Host. Basically, don't let them be ruled by the rules of the game. Only allow them to be constrained by their own laws: Daniel has always been Dream, Despair passed away - but no one knows what happened to her, etc. Beyond that, they are seperate entities from both the celestial and ethereal planes. Armand ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 04:13:25 +0900 From: Simon Hailes Subject: Re: IN> Anti-Puritans At 10:56 PM 19/03/98 PST, you wrote: >>> I am calling on all you pro Blandine, pro Ethereals out there to stand up for the Ethereals right to live, and to denounce Uriel's abhorent Crusade. I am calling this club the Anti-Puritans and am using this to shed light on the Ethereals predicament. The ethereals are not lecherous entities who are sucking the Essence from our dreams, they are our children, the fruits of our creative labor given form. They are the magical denizens of the Marches, the spirit of the Marches, the Voice of our Musings. Imagine these poor things, who have spent centuries of blissful co-dependance with Man, only to discover that because they aren't 'Of Heaven' they must be destroyed! It is probably the way the jews felt when the Third Reich said they were slated to die because of impurity, in fact, had Uriel continued he probably would have whole heartedly endorsed the Nazis. Now a lot of people counter 'Uriel was just doing his job' really, so were the people who dropped the atomic bomb on Hiroshima, they were doing their jobs, does that make what they did right? does that make Uriel right, no, It makes Uriel a narrow minded fanatic willing to do anything to make his Word Ascendant. No wonder God called him back, no matter how the trial went it would have been bad, if they had ratified him he would have gone on to greater extremes and Fallen, if deemed guilty, he would have gone renegade an eventually Fallen, God did the best thing calling him back. So in the name of equality and fair treatment I propose the Anit-Puritan Society to make sure Uriel never happens again. Simon, Archangel of Never Forget "I know you're not really human," Goethe, Schindler's List ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 23:45:43 -0800 From: Armand Subject: Re: IN> The Endless >I'd agree with all of Earl's comments in principle (the Endless would >be Avatars, I suppose); however, adding NPCs of that power-level to a >game may not be the best plan. Not much you can do to or about them >except put up with them - difficult for players who already have >Superiors to deal with. Adding Avatars means not only can the players >not deal with them, the Superiors can't either. Other than trying to >play on the personality of an Endless (at the risk of a Really Bad Thing >(tm) if you screw up), what would be the purpose? Or is that enough >right there? Color me a little on the argumentative side. A lot of the Endless' canon is more about their interaction with the "world". Take "Four Septembers and a January" as an example. All of the Endless, save Destiny and Destruction, appear and interact in some way with Emperor Norton I. I didn't get the impression that anyone was being brow beat by the Endless. Only "subtle" manipulation was employed. Using the Endless in an IN game should be run something like that. They show up, and their cent or two, and leave the seeds to grow on their own. To compare them with "superiors" I see as ludicrous myself. End Rant, Armand ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 09:24:05 -0000 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: Re: IN> Rewards and character evolution - ---David Streeter wrote: > I was talking more about > disparity in power level between a new character, and characters that > have been around for a few years. You want a new/replacement character > to be of a comparable power level to older characters fairly quickly, or > they'll feel like a fifth wheel. I don't think this needs to be so much about power levels as it is about making sure that the new character has some skills, abilities or allies/ contacts which aren't duplicated by any of the old PCs. Then when you run them through a session, make sure the new character gets lots of opportunities to use its specialisation so that everyone else can see how useful it (potentially) is ;-) In IN terms this would actually be quite easy -- just have the new character be of a choir/ superior which no--one else is. eg. If everyone else is playing fighting-type seraphs/ cherubs/ malakites of warlike angels, get the new player to pick a mercurian and stick them in a scenario in which it becomes vital to go and talk to mortals. Or something. I don't think the experience spread is as important as the ability spread. In some systems, more experienced characters will be better at EVERYTHING than starting characters and that might be a problem IMO. Some players like to play very weak characters though, and don't mind the disparity ;-) I do this a lot myself. jo ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 10:58:53 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: Rewards and character evolution (was Re: IN> Re: IN- Free Lilim) On Thu, Mar 19, 1998 at 03:06:00PM -0500, Walter Milliken wrote: > >In the non-IN campaign I play in, we have an objective formula for > >character advancement that I like. We roll percentile dice in play. > >If your stat is X, you want to roll X% or lower. After a session, > >you make a "learning roll" for each stat you used successfully > >during the session. Failing miserably makes you learn things as well, though, such as specifically how not to do something. > Roughly like the Chaosium system, if I recall it right. This lends > itself to the "I'll use every skill I can to qualify for improvement" > munchkin syndrome. The canonical case, paraphrased: > Ick. The example you gave was not nice. I'd personally like guidelines for how long it takes to learn a skill or improve it beyond a certain level, as well as what else it requires. How far is constant practice going to take you before you need more training? How does Intelligence factor in? > > I far prefer the point-based advancement systems myself, with some GM > guidance/aproval in spending points. Concerning points, how does characteristic advancement, as opposed to Force purchasing, work? Can you develop your characteristics yourself, or do you have to ask your Superior to increase them for you? Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "as for their relations with others, that is a long story, but it can be expressed shortly and clearly by saying that of all people we know the Spartans are most conspicuous for believing that what they like doing is honourable and what suits their interests is just." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 11:15:10 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- vessels? On Thu, Mar 19, 1998 at 11:10:23PM -0800, David Streeter wrote: > For example, say you are a Demon of Technology who wants to be Bill > Gates. You'd kill him with a poisoned cream pie in the face, do a song > of form on your vessel so that you look like him, and viola! Role/6 > Status/6! > And then half an hour later your Song runs out and you no longer look like Bill Gates. (With a check digit of 8 and 6 Celestial Forces you can push it up to 48 minutes.) You have to ask Vapula, or whoever, to make your Vessel look like Bill Gates, and then you have to ask for Bill Gates' memories, and you have to be a good actor. And when Vapula finds out that you killed Bill Gates, he'll probably toast, eh, invite you to take part in a highly experimental project, such as gravitic tissue mutation. (Of course, one could argue that Bill Gates' attempts to restrict advances in technology by placing them under his control run directly counter to Vapula's interests.) Accruing Roles over time can actually happen more or less accidentally, simply as a result of interacting with lots of humans, especially if you do real world jobs in order to get money. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "as for their relations with others, that is a long story, but it can be expressed shortly and clearly by saying that of all people we know the Spartans are most conspicuous for believing that what they like doing is honourable and what suits their interests is just." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 04:57:42 -0500 From: "David C. Shadle" Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- vessels? > (Of course, one could argue that Bill Gates' attempts to restrict advances > in technology by placing them under his control run directly counter to > Vapula's interests.) So that means that he's either a renegade, or a servant of Jean. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 09:55:07 -0500 From: Andrew Frades Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- vessels? David C. Shadle wrote: > > > > (Of course, one could argue that Bill Gates' attempts to restrict > advances > > in technology by placing them under his control run directly counter to > > Vapula's interests.) > So that means that he's either a renegade, or a servant of Jean. Or a selfish human. Be careful when assigning demonic and/or angelic status to real people. Many in your game may disagree and might have some problems with your descisions. This is especially true with political figures. For example does anyone else have a real issue with the renaming of Dulles Airport? Andrew ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 15:11:01 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- vessels? On Fri, Mar 20, 1998 at 09:55:07AM -0500, Andrew Frades wrote: > Or a selfish human. Be careful when assigning demonic and/or angelic > status to real people. Many in your game may disagree and might have > some problems with your descisions. This is especially true with > political figures. > It's just very tempting sometimes. The idea that Ian Paisley is a Habbalite of Factions (or maybe Nightmares in service to Factions) occured to me this morning, and I just found it funny. > For example does anyone else have a real issue with the renaming of > Dulles Airport? > (Don't kill me. I have a Word to serve.) Why? What did John Foster Dulles do again? I've heard the name, but I can't recall what it should mean to me. Where is Dulles Airport? To what is it being renamed? Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "as for their relations with others, that is a long story, but it can be expressed shortly and clearly by saying that of all people we know the Spartans are most conspicuous for believing that what they like doing is honourable and what suits their interests is just." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 16:49:25 -0000 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: IN> Sharon's Adventures in Wonderland 1. Sharon returns to her abode to find two messages from Tracey. One of them was from the same morning, hoping that things would go well and asking Sharon to pick up 200 B&H in duty free if she got the chance. The second is from about half an hour ago, har voice is wavering, and she just asks Sharon to come over as soon as she gets the chance. 2. Tracey's flat. The Mercurian's face is streaked with tears and she looks to be in some kind of shock. She asks dully how things went and makes tea. finally she gets to the point. She has been working at a hostel for abused and battered wives. (She finds it hard to go on... more deep breaths). So much cruelty. So many ruined lives. So much self-hate. Sharon must go there and punish the men responsible. They must feel Gabriel's fire! It is clear that something must have happened but she isnt in much of a state to ask. 3. The hostel. It's a little concrete building in one of the less nasty parts of Walworth, someone has obviously been making an effort to prettify its garden and some of the windows are covered with bright cut out pieces of paper, like you might see in a primary school. The security on windows and doors is noticeable though. Sharon has to press a buzzer and give her name and details before she can go inside. There are children, women, lots of notes up on the noticeboard for local action groups.. one advertising a demonstration. 4. She can find out that there was a disturbance earlier that day. One of the men came around, drunk, and tried to abduct his daughter. Fortunately one of the social workers was able to hold him off, although she hit him over the head with a chair. Police have decided not to press charges for assault. She can talk to some of the women and care workers. 5. Bloke #1 The family are asian, very poor. His worst offence is wife beating. His best is working extra hours in order to pay upkeep for his children. Note: pictures on the wall. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 11:51:41 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> Anti-Puritans On Fri, 20 Mar 1998, Simon Hailes wrote: > At 10:56 PM 19/03/98 PST, you wrote: > >>> I am calling on all you pro Blandine, pro Ethereals out there to stand > up for the Ethereals right to live, and to denounce Uriel's abhorent Crusade. Well, I am obviously the voice ot the opposition here. I will be addressing your rather demagogic [ :::) ] claims point by point. This should not be construed as an attack; rather, it is an attempt to explain why the Crusade *had* to occur. > I am calling this club the Anti-Puritans and am using this to shed light > on the Ethereals predicament. The ethereals are not lecherous entities who > are sucking the Essence from our dreams, they are our children, the fruits > of our creative labor given form. They are the magical denizens of the > Marches, the spirit of the Marches, the Voice of our Musings. If by "our", you mean mortals, then yes. I agree. They are the product of human dream and imagination. So far, we have no disagreement. > Imagine these poor things, who have spent centuries of blissful > co-dependance with Man, only to discover that because they aren't 'Of > Heaven' they must be destroyed! It is probably the way the jews felt when > the Third Reich said they were slated to die because of impurity, in fact, > had Uriel continued he probably would have whole heartedly endorsed the Nazis. Ahem. They were not destroyed because they were not "of Heaven". They were destroyed because they were a threat to the plan of the Divine. The Lord God had commanded through several servants that "thou shalt have no other Gods before Me". Had the mortals continued to hold Our Lord foremost in their thoughts, and then also worshipped the creations of their imaginations, there would have been no conflict. However, the Ethereals seduced the mortals into worshiping *them* first, and into disregarding Our Lord. This could not be tolerated. Please remember that destruction of the Ethereals was not our primary goal. The primary goal of the Crusade was to remove the influence of the Ethereals from the Corporeal Realm. Diplomacy was used first. Ethereals that were willing to leave when warned were given safe passage into the Deep Marches; the totem spirits of the Dreamtime are a prime example. Destruction was reserved for those Ethereals who refused to depart the Corporeal Realm, thinking they could stand against Heaven. Now, as to your slanderous charge that Archangel Uriel would have endorsed the German National Socialist Party. The short answer is to simply state that you are wrong. The Word of Uriel is Purity, not Fascism (as you seem to believe). The Crusade was an unprecedented and extreme aspect of his Word, but it is hardly an atrocity comparable with the Holocaust. Uriel's Word resonates with all that is pure and holy, and against all that is unclean and unholy. > Now a lot of people counter 'Uriel was just doing his job' really, so > were the people who dropped the atomic bomb on Hiroshima, they were doing > their jobs, does that make what they did right? does that make Uriel right, > no, It makes Uriel a narrow minded fanatic willing to do anything to make > his Word Ascendant. Perhaps the same could be said of any Archangel? You accuse Uriel of being "a narrow minded fanatic willing to do anything to make his Word ascendant". Is Dominic a "narrow minded fanatic" for pursuing his Word, and maintaining the Celestial Inquisition? Is Jordi a "narrow minded fanatic" for promoting the good of animals above all? Is Michael a "narrow minded fanatic" for seeking victory for Heaven in the Great War, even at the cost of occasionally defying Laurence and the Seraphim Council? Is Novalis a "narrow minded fanatic" for seeking peace, even at the price of obstructing Michael and Laurence? The list could continue, but I think you see my point. You speak as if being "narrow minded" is a bad thing, but you fail to define the term. In my experience, this typically means that the "narrow minded" person has committed the awful, unpardonable sin of not agreeing with the person making the accusation. No effort is made to understand why the "narow minded" person may have another point of view; instead, a simplistic accusation is made. The charge of "narrow minded" then sticks, as the person accused fears being thought of as "narrow minded". No thought is given as to what the accused actually thinks. His view is automatically invalid because it is "narrow minded". I agree that having an open mind is a good thing, but it can also be worse than having a "narrow mind". A narrow mind can also mean a focused mind, one that sees what needs doing, and does it. > No wonder God called him back, no matter how the trial went it would > have been bad, if they had ratified him he would have gone on to greater > extremes and Fallen, if deemed guilty, he would have gone renegade an > eventually Fallen, God did the best thing calling him back. First, the obvious. Uriel cannot Fall. David cannot Fall. Laurence cannot Fall. They are all three Malakim. Malakim cannot Fall. Furthermore, you are engaging in baseless speculation at this point. You claim Uriel "would have gone on to greater extremes". Please, produce your evidence. Support your accusations. Even Dominic is required to do so, and he is a much greater Archangel than you. As a Servitor of Uriel who participated in the Crusade, I can stand to tell you that you are wrong. Uriel gave us very specific objectives to accomplish, no less and no more. There were no plans for "greater extremes". Please, produce your evidence. Or admit that this point comes from pure personal bias. > So in the name of equality and fair treatment I propose the Anit-Puritan > Society to make sure Uriel never happens again. But what is this "Anti-Puritan Society" organized to do? Other than attempt to demonize Uriel? I would comment on it, but there is no description of the proposed society. Rich Gant Malakim of Uriel, in service to Eli ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #686 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.