From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Mar 23 10:19:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA24307 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 10:19:44 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id HAA20729 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 07:53:48 -0600 Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 07:53:48 -0600 Message-Id: <199803231353.HAA20729@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #689 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, March 23 1998 Volume 01 : Number 689 In this digest: Re: IN> Metatetron? IN> Re: IN-Kobal's big joke Re: IN> Metatetron? Re: IN> Ancient Angels? Re: IN> Metatetron? IN> An apology for Uriel IN> Ramped advancement? Re: IN> Ramped advancement? Re: IN> Metatetron? IN> in_nomine-l acronyms IN> in_nomine-l acronyms IN> Re: IN- An apology for Uriel Re: IN> An apology for Uriel IN> Re: IN- Ramped advancement? Re: IN> Re: IN- Ramped advancement? Re: IN> Ancient Angels? IN> Kyrio Question IN> Re: IN- Re: IN- Ramped advancement? RE: IN> Kyrio Question IN> More word-bound NPC type demons Re: IN> Kyrio Question ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 08:04:02 EST From: SienarFLT Subject: Re: IN> Metatetron? In a message dated 98-03-21 23:35:30 EST, you write: > Soviet wrote: > > > > Okay has anyone heard of this Angel? I found its name on a > > old Theology spanish book, his names is supposed to mean "Word of > > God"...any Ideas? > > Often translated as the Voice of God. According to canon he is dead but > this doesn't mean much if you like the idea... > > Andrew If I remember correctly from the gnostic Books of Enoch, when God took Enoch to Heaven, he was transformed by God into Metatron, Angel above (just about) all other angels, which made more than a couple of them upset. Metatron was punished (how I don't exactly remember) to show him humility, to appease the (jealous?) angels, but mostly to show that no one is equal to the power of God. He is described: "He was enlarged and increased in size until he was nearly equal to the entire earth in length and breadth; he then received 36 pairs of wings (for 72 in all) and was given 365,000 eyes....to make the metamorphosis complete, the Lord turned Metatron into a burning, living flame, his sinews like the hottest of fire, his eyes like torches, and his flesh the very essence of heat..." as per Matthew Bunson's very handy reference "Angels A to Z" p 180. Here's hoping I haven't repeated any info already done for the list previously. Supposedly the APG states Metatron is dead, though I don't know the circumstances behind it. -- Thom D. (reply to SienarFLT@aol.com) "Men rarely (if ever) manage to dream up a god Superior to themselves. Most gods have the Manners and morals of a spoiled child." -- Lazarus Long. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 05:54:43 PST From: "David Streeter" Subject: IN> Re: IN-Kobal's big joke >There's been a lot of speculation as to what Kobal's "big joke" is. > > >It's really quite obvious. You just have to practice reading the fnords. > --Querent, Angel of Widescreen. > Mercurian Servitor of Creation. Our apologies. Querent will have been processed for food by morning for revealing our plans. A replacement AI has been installed. You won't notice the difference. But we will. SurturZ Dissonant Elohite of Stone, Angel of the Illuminati ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 10:37:28 -0500 From: Soviet Subject: Re: IN> Metatetron? Who or what is APG? Doctor TOC wrote: > I brought up the subject of the Metatron a while back (before you joined > the list I think). It's a fascinating entity, but I think the answer to > my inquiries was that the APG says he's dead. Of course that might not > mean a lot to a being of Archangel level power or higher... > > Doctor TOC > -- > The Reverend Doctor "The Other Chris" > "The pen is mightier than the sword...especially when shot from a high > powered air-rifle" > UIN # 4814586 > URL: http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/wilhelm/148/ - -- "I want that power. By right, it is mine. For ultimate power is the ultimate destiny of Doom." Spectacular Spider-Man #159 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 11:28:55 -0800 From: Drake Subject: Re: IN> Ancient Angels? >Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 22:54:02 -0500 >From: Soviet >Subject: IN> Ancient Angels? >Ok my question is this are all Celestials been there since the >begining of times or have some new ones have risen through the ages? Well according to the APG, only 7 were around from the beginning of time, Michael, Lucifer, Baal, David, Eli, Gabriel, and Uriel. The next wave of the Angels and Archangels came about around the time the Earth was forming and there was a lot of tectonic movement. After that, Angels and Archangels slowly came about over time, so no, most Angels haven't existed since the beginning of time. >If they have always been why do they have so little >knowledge(A.K.A. skills and songs)? Well most of the Angels that have been around that long, do have most skills and songs. Look at Hamet from Feast of Blades, he has all skills at level 2 because of his age. Most Celestials this old would not show up as regular player characters anyway. You can start out as an Ancient Celestial if you want to, but it does require a bit of work and a good story. Such as my character, Amon-Nahashel, is a 15,000 year old Angel that served Lucifer before the Fall. At the height of his power, he was renowned as one of the best and most powerful Angels in existance (Not Archangel, just Angel), and knew a great many skills and songs, but about half a century ago, he made a grave mistake and went to Hell to rescure a Renegade Lilim that he was in love with, but was ambushed. He personally fought Baal as his companions escaped from Hell. He and his companions were heavily Force stripped because of the battle, but Amon-Nahashel was left in Hell to be experimented on and tortured, in an effort to make a Malakite Fall. Long story short, he some how escaped and came back to Earth with his mind and body and soul heavily weakened and most of his skills and songs long forgotten, and due to his now Outcast status, all his Distinictions gone. He is currently preforming various missions for Michael to regain his favor and such. Anyway that was my idea on how to play a balanced starting character that is an Ancient Angel. :) >If they are new, how does this happens?is it when a celestial dies a new one rises >to take its place? New Celestials are created as needed by Heaven, and most likely, created as quickly as possible by Hell (Heaven goes by quality, Hell goes by quantity). Amon-Nahashel "Drake", Ancient Angel of bad choices "Lilim, they're cute, but don't taste the forbidden fruit." Ofanite Perspective on Lilim. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 16:19:37 +0000 From: Julian Breen Subject: Re: IN> Metatetron? Soviet writes >Okay has anyone heard of this Angel? I found its name on a >old Theology spanish book, his names is supposed to mean "Word of >God"...any Ideas? > Yep, essentially, Metatron is the "Voice of God". God's Megaphone if you like. I posted something about how I intend to use him IMC in digest 659. I saw reference to him in the APG as being the first Seraph killed by Lucifer, but it does not elaborate and I started wondering what his Word was...Probably something like "Archangel of the Divine Face". - -- Jules ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 12:29:15 -0500 From: neel@cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Subject: IN> An apology for Uriel Okay, for my own campaign I have a general rule that the archangels are very morally aware; they are the good guys and act like it, though of course this doesn't preclude strife or genuine disagreement about what the good *is*. Now, this meant that I needed to come up with some explanation for Uriel's purge that didn't amount to "Uriel was an unthinking fanatic" -- I want my players to seriously consider the possibility that Uriel was correct and justified in her actions. So, here's what I came up with. (I stole liberally from C.S. Lewis's _The Problem of Pain_ and _Miracles_. You might notice an example or two.) God has given human beings the ability to make free choices and accept moral responsibility for their actions. This fact requires that reality be more-or-less consistent and predictable. If reality were chaotic and fluid, then it wouldn't make sense to say that people were responsible for the consequences of their actions, since they would have no idea what the consequences could be. Further, it wouldn't even make any sense to claim that humans were at any liberty at all, since they cannot change their condition according to their will. [*] Now, the Marches are a chaotic and fluid realm, which is all well and good -- this aspect of Creation helps to inspire an appreciation of the numinous in mankind. But when the beings of the Marches begin to enter the corporeal realm, by their very nature does they do damage to the physical world. And if enough of them came through, they could break down the laws of the corporeal realm by simply offering enough exceptions to the rules that the rules would no longer hold. And mankind would no longer be able to exercise moral choice. This was an incredibly bad outcome, and Uriel acted to prevent it. Her action was desperate and violent, but then, it was a catastrophe she sought to avert, and no one begrudges the surgeon her scalpel. [**] [*] The occasional miracle -- like the presence of angels in the corporeal realm -- is excused by the observation that in a game of chess, you can spot a weaker player a piece and still be playing chess. But too many arbitrary rules changes and you aren't. (This is why angels act in secret on Earth, and why their presence causes disturbance.) [**] There's more to it IMC, but the rest is fairly non- canonical. - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Mar 98 09:52:50 -0800 From: Sean K Reynolds Subject: IN> Ramped advancement? OK, in the IN rulebook, characters that have gotten achievement points for successful missions can spend them to buy resources at the same cost as at character creation. Has anyone noticed that characters can advance very rapidly doing this? Imean, if a character is getting 2-4 or more character points per playing session, they could theoretically buy themselves a new song at level 6 every other game session. - - Sean - -- Sean K Reynolds http://home.earthlink.net/~skreyn/ To see how I would rule as a benign despot, see my web page. "Ask for me tomorrow and you shall find me a grave man." - - Mercutio ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 14:13:46 -0500 (EST) From: Pee Kitty Subject: Re: IN> Ramped advancement? On Sun, 22 Mar 1998, Sean K Reynolds wrote: > OK, in the IN rulebook, characters that have gotten achievement points > for successful missions can spend them to buy resources at the same cost > as at character creation. Has anyone noticed that characters can advance > very rapidly doing this? Imean, if a character is getting 2-4 or more > character points per playing session, they could theoretically buy > themselves a new song at level 6 every other game session. That's up to you. There's many different kinds of advancement. I like to give the players a total of 4-6 points per adventure (NOT session - my adventures tend to last about 4-6 sessions), and give them the rest in Superior-awarded perks. This doesn't have to be a powerful gift...at the end of my last adventure, one character was VERY happy with his Superior refilling his Essence, healing his vessel, and generously wiping out his 3 points of dissonance after hearing the mitigating circumstances - happier than he would've been with a new attunement, I'm sure. Another player got nothing but sanctuary from another player's Superior and the suggestion that they may work together in the future; this is what the player wanted more than anything [*], and is just as good to him as a more tangible reward. On the flip side, one player did VERY well - he promoted Malphas' word to a high degree and brought in a potential spy...Malphas refilled his Essence and listened to his request. He wanted the Bal band attunement, so Malphas allowed him to buy it for 4 of his character points (chipping in 1 point as a gift). I can't speak for others, but my players feel the rewards they get are very fair, and are gradually advancing at a manageable pace. Most of them spend their points on skills and songs, with a few attribute improvements here and there. No one's gotten another Force yet, and I don't expect it to happen very soon. [*] The quick version: She serves Andre, but got involved in this adventure halfway through without Andre knowing (or caring, actually); it ended up with the PCs in serious danger, and the servitor of Malphas spoke for her behalf with his Prince. Malphas agreed to provide the sanctuary that Andre would not (he didn't care about her helping the PCs, but he would be hard pressed to put himself out for her; Malphas, OTOH, sees a chance to get an agent inside Andre's place). Also, when the player was making his Lilim, he waffled between Malphas and Andre, loving the attunements for both equally...he wished that he could serve Andre but somehow beg a band attunement from Malphas. I'm going to give him the chance. Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! And finally, a special message to \|/ ____ \|/ anyone who thinks I give a damn... ~@-/ oO \-@~ /_( \__/ )_\ \__U_/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 14:53:18 EST From: "Perry M. Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Metatetron? This entry is information taken from the book: _Encyclopedia of Angels_ by Constance Victoria Briggs. Copyright 1997 by Constance Victoria Briggs. Published by the Penguin Group. I cannot claim this information to be my own and no attempt is being made to infringe upon copyright. (And it's *certainly* NOT In Nomine canon.) {{{{{{{{{ * Metatron: According to Judaic Lore, Metatron is the greatest angel in Heaven. The Third Book of Enoch tells us that Metatron was once the biblical prophet Enoch. God took Enoch bodily from earth because he was a righteous man. When he reached Heaven, he was immediately transformed into a mighty angel and renamed Metatron. According to lore, God blessed him with 1,365,000 blessings, enlarged his size until he was as large as the world; gave him seventy-two wings, each the size of the world; gave him 365,000 eyes, a crown of precious stones, and a majestic throne that sits in the seventh place. God called him the Lesser Yahweh (God's Name) and placed him over all the princes of Heaven. He is responsible for the welfare and provisions of mankind and is mankind's direct connection to God. In one account he is put above the archangels Michael and Gabriel for ousting Jannes and Janbres (Pharaoh's Egyptian wizards) from Heaven. The Calaba states that it was Metatron who led the Hebrews through the wilderness after they fled Egypt. The Calaba lists him as an archangel of the Holy Sefiroth. He holds many titles including the Chancellor of Heaven, Prince of Divine Presence, Prince of the Torah, Prince of the Divine Face, Angel of the Covenant, Prince of the Seraphim, King of Angels, Prince of Princes, the Demiurge, the Angel of Death, the Angel of Music, and Angel of Humankind, and Heavenly Scribe. According to the chronicles of Enoch, he has seventy-eight names. All of these names are based on the name of God. They are Yaho'el Yah; Yoppie'el; Apap'el; Margay'el; Geyor'el; Tandu'el; Tatnadi'el; Tatri'el; Tabtabi'el; Ozahyah; Zahzahyah; Ebed; Zebuli'el; Sapsapi'el; Sopri'el; Paspasi'el; Senigron; Sarpupirin; Mita-tron; Sigron; Adrigon; Astas; Saqpas; Saqpus; Mikon; Miton; Ruah Pisqonit; Atatyah; Asasyah; Zagzagyah; Paspasyah; Mesamyah; Masmasyah; Absannis; Mebargas; Bardas; Mekarkar; Maspad; Tasgas; Tasbas; Metarpitas; Paspisahu; Besihi; Itmon; Pisqon; Sapsapyah; Zerah Zerahyah; Ab'abyah; Hahhahyah; Pepatpalyah; Rakrakyah; Hashasyah; Taptapyah; Tamtamyah; Sahahyah; Ar'aryah; Al'alyah; Zazruyah; Aramyah; Sebar Suhasyah; Razrazyah; Tahsanyah; Sasrasyah; Sabsebibyah; Qeliqalyah; Warwahyah; Zakzakyah; Titrisyah; Sewiryah; Zehapnuryah; Za'za'yah; Galrazyah; Melakmelapyah; Attaryah; Perisyah; Amqaqyah; Salsalyah. When invoked, Metatron becomes a pillar of fire. }}}}}}}}} Of course, I believe according to In Nomine canon, Metatron is Dead. So... yeah. Looks like he was a pretty powerful, important angel according to some of the scriptures. - -Perry Perry M. Lloyd Check out the PBEM In Nomine: Soldiers of Linn webpage! (Whenever we get around to bringing the Host computer closer to the net...) Gaming Quote of the week: "There're things crawling up your legs now." - Perry (GM) "Okay, I cut them off. NO! Not my legs!" - Sumner ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 19:37:40 PST From: "David Streeter" Subject: IN> in_nomine-l acronyms >Soviet asked what APG was Yeah, this list seems to use a lot of acronyms. These are the few I've worked out... The following are In Nomine books from Steve Jackson Games: IN = In Nomine NM = Night Music (Revelations II) H&H = Heaven & Hell (Revelations III) FOTM =Fall of The Malakim (not released) APG = Angelic Players' Guide IPG = Infernal Players' Guide (not released) LR = Liber Reliquarum descriptions of the above can be found on the Steve Jackson Games website (www.sjgames.com) Other acronyms: SJG = Steve Jackson Games RPG = Role Playing Game(s) FRP = Fantasy Role Playing IMC = In My Campaign IYC = In Your Campaign OOC = Out Of Campaign INS/MV = In Nomine Satanus/Magna Veritas - the original French Game on which In Nomine is based INDV = In Nomine Dark Victory, an online IN variant campaign WOD = World Of Darkness, some Vampire supplement (?), which people insist on comparing IN to. I guess IN *is* SJG's answer to Vampire, inasmuch as it is a "cinematic" RPG. It's about as light on rules as SJG is likely to get :-) SurturZ Dissonant Elohite of Stone, Angel of the Illuminati ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 19:39:23 PST From: "David Streeter" Subject: IN> in_nomine-l acronyms >Soviet asked what APG was Yeah, this list seems to use a lot of acronyms. These are the few I've worked out... The following are In Nomine books from Steve Jackson Games: IN = In Nomine NM = Night Music (Revelations II) H&H = Heaven & Hell (Revelations III) FOTM =Fall of The Malakim (not released) APG = Angelic Players' Guide IPG = Infernal Players' Guide (not released) LR = Liber Reliquarum descriptions of the above can be found on the Steve Jackson Games website (www.sjgames.com) Other acronyms: SJG = Steve Jackson Games RPG = Role Playing Game(s) FRP = Fantasy Role Playing IMC = In My Campaign IYC = In Your Campaign OOC = Out Of Campaign INS/MV = In Nomine Satanus/Magna Veritas - the original French Game on which In Nomine is based INDV = In Nomine Dark Victory, an online IN variant campaign WOD = World Of Darkness, some Vampire supplement (?), which people insist on comparing IN to. I guess IN *is* SJG's answer to Vampire, inasmuch as it is a "cinematic" RPG. It's about as light on rules as SJG is likely to get :-) SurturZ Dissonant Elohite of Stone, Angel of the Illuminati ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 19:43:19 PST From: "David Streeter" Subject: IN> Re: IN- An apology for Uriel >players to seriously consider the possibility that Uriel was correct and >justified in her actions. "Her"? I thought Uriel was "male"? SurturZ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 22:56:18 EST From: Heretic103 Subject: Re: IN> An apology for Uriel I believe that uriel is has been send to his room for a timeout untill he can say he is sorry. Imagine a not so happry god grabbing him by his ear and taking him to the higher heavens. :) Heretic Archangel of Cop Killers ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 20:00:26 PST From: "David Streeter" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Ramped advancement? >very rapidly doing this? Imean, if a character is getting 2-4 or more >character points per playing session, they could theoretically buy >themselves a new song at level 6 every other game session. IMC, and I suspect this is implied in the main rulebook, is that purchase of new songs, skills etc should be vetted by the GM. Of course, the GM should be informed whenever a character spends XP, but for *new* abilities, the understanding should be there that it is up to the player to convince the GM that he should be allowed to buy the new ability. This, of course, is to encourage players to specialise in their starting abilities & keep variety in the party, rather than all players eventually having Numinous Corpus Acid/6 because it's the most effective. I have a question, though - can one angel teach a song to another angel? Of do you have to be taught by a superior? I imagine the best would be "Celestials can teach each other new songs, but need to ask for permission first". SurturZ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 22:14:07 -0600 (CST) From: Dataweaver Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Ramped advancement? On Sun, 22 Mar 1998, David Streeter wrote: > >very rapidly doing this? Imean, if a character is getting 2-4 or more > >character points per playing session, they could theoretically buy > >themselves a new song at level 6 every other game session. > > IMC, and I suspect this is implied in the main rulebook, is that > purchase of new songs, skills etc should be vetted by the GM. Of course, > the GM should be informed whenever a character spends XP, but for *new* > abilities, the understanding should be there that it is up to the player > to convince the GM that he should be allowed to buy the new ability. I'd say even raising an existing ability can be banned by the GM; the difference would be that improving an existing ability is done unless the GM specifically prohibits it, whereas gaining a new ability only happens with explicit GM approval. > This, of course, is to encourage players to specialise in their starting > abilities & keep variety in the party, rather than all players > eventually having Numinous Corpus Acid/6 because it's the most > effective. > > I have a question, though - can one angel teach a song to another angel? > Of do you have to be taught by a superior? > > I imagine the best would be "Celestials can teach each other new songs, > but need to ask for permission first". OK; but who would the Outcasts and Renegades go to to ask permission (to teach)? - ---- Jonathan Lang ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver --------- Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing, FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer. submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 14:33:26 From: Peter Frederick Subject: Re: IN> Ancient Angels? Dear Soviet, and List. >If they have always been why do they have so little >knowledge(A.K.A. skills and songs)? IMHO the other reason that Old Celestials don't always have every Skill/Song is that their Superiors can fiddle with them anytime they can meet up/catch up with them. This is obviously worse for Demons than Angels. Angels at least can rely on some good will from their Superiors. This was a useful tack to take when my players were creating characters. One wanted to have done 20 years or so around Europe from the 50's onward, which for consistancy would require him to have had several levels of Euorpean languages. I ruled that after that stretch on Earth his Superior could have "reprogrammed" him removing the Language skills and replacing them with whatever he needed for his next mission. As it turned out he had a few points left over so ended up with a couple of levels of German, but might well have had more languages when he was active in Europe. Within reason this could be done with Songs, Roles, Vessels, Servants, Artifacts and even Forces. It might be easier for a Superior to provide a Servitor with the Skill to do something than provide another Servitor who can do that Skill. The other reason I like this idea is it that it reinforces the "these are NOT humans" theme in IN that I think gets blurred over sometimes. It also gives Renegades another very strong reason not to be caught by their former Superior. There is a seperate question of the relation of "age" to "experience", but as Celestials can spend a long time doing things that wouldn't provide much in the way of experience points it isn't hard to rack up a fair number of years without getting too much milage. How Celestials who are active on Earth for more than a few deacdes fail to go from 9 Forces to 18 and bulk goodies is a question I am still a bit hazy on. Thanking you for your indulgence. Regards, Peter. Reply to peterf@wr.com.au May the Goddess shelter you in the palm of her hand until we meet again. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 23:49:43 -0600 (CST) From: Ziggy Subject: IN> Kyrio Question Ok, I know there haen't been many of these, and I'm sorry if this one's been explained somewhere, but: What is the difference between skills and abilities? Kyrios of Jean get to use their hosts skills, while Kyrios of Zadkiel (AA of Protection from H&H) get tose their hosts abilities. Is there a difference? - -Tim ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 22:46:34 PST From: "David Streeter" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Re: IN- Ramped advancement? Dataweaver spake thusly: >I'd say even raising an existing ability can be banned by the GM; the >difference would be that improving an existing ability is done unless the >GM specifically prohibits it, whereas gaining a new ability only happens >with explicit GM approval. Yes, I agree. The players should know that improving existing abilities will normally be okay, and adding new abilities will normally not be okay. >> I imagine the best would be "Celestials can teach each other new songs, >> but need to ask for permission first". > >OK; but who would the Outcasts and Renegades go to to ask permission (to >teach)? That was kind of my point. If you can only learn songs from a superior, then Outcasts & Renegades have a tough time getting new songs. If the rule is that "You _should_ get permission from your superior before teaching or learning a song", then the rule is more flexible - and there are more role playing opportunities. Of course, the *real* reason a GM will veto a character learning a new song is usually for game balance or plot reasons, but it is good if you can justify it in game too. The APG songs that allow Angels to procreate are examples of restricted songs - so there is a precedent. Perhaps the Songs in main rulebook are the "Public Domain" songs, that can be freely taught and learnt, whereas with other songs it is wise to ask permission first. Here's a tricky one: In Game, it makes sense that you can learn new skills from your companions. For example, learning the Detect Lies skill from someone else in your party. Out of Game (OOG), however, it's probably better to have only a minor overlapping of skills - so that each character is "special". How do you resolve it? I guess ideally each ability would be known by two people in the party (in case one doesn't show up for a session, or is knocked unconscious, etc). The GM could simply tell the third player wanting a particular ability that it would be more interesting to pick something else, I guess. SurturZ Dissonant Elohite of Stone ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 02:40:45 EST From: "Perry M. Lloyd" Subject: RE: IN> Kyrio Question Ziggy asks: >What is the difference between skills and abilities? Kyrios of Jean get >to use their hosts skills, while Kyrios of Zadkiel (AA of Protection from >H&H) get tose their hosts abilities. Is there a difference? > >-Tim IMO and IMC, "Abilities" extends to Attunements, and Songs, as well as the use of an Relics which should only work for that being. Skills are skills. Of course, IYC things might be run differently than IMC, but IIRC (and IM*H*O) I should be always be right I'm GM for any RPG, FRP. And certainly when I'm GM for INS/MV, WOD, or INDV and SJG games in general, like GURPS or IN. But... that's merely MHO. (FYI: Couldn't resist it O:::) - -Perry, Seraph of Flowers. (Don't hurt me! Don't hurt me!) Perry M. Lloyd Gaming Quote of the moment: "It's 7:35, you've just fragged the entire inner city. ... It's Miller Time." -Ben H. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 10:26:55 -0000 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: IN> More word-bound NPC type demons These ones are all from Dark Humour. - -- Rumpole, Balseraph of Dark Humour, Demon of Lawyer Jokes A demon that typically appears in a hearty, corpulent vessel with twinkling eyes, gets itself invited to nice dinner parties and entertains the masses with witty anecdotes about life in the legal profession. In its spare time it encourages all-comers to bring their claims and suits to court. Especially the really pointless cases which will steal a lot of airtime and tarnish the reputation of the legal profession even more than it already is (viz. the people who are suing Ultima Online). L'Envie, Impudite Knight of Dark Humour, Demon of Fashion L'Envie appeared on the scene, or 'burst onto the scene in a glorious cascade, as of a star zat gives up its life for one solitary moment of eternity!' as he would put it, a couple of centuries ago. The scene is still recovering. He is outrageous, flamboyant, petulant, brilliant and obsessive, so naturally all the most shallow demons in Hell instantly placed him on a pedestal and adored him. Almost as much as he adores himself. The demon prince of Lust just stared in disbelief, and then with envy. Having considered himself the standing expert in creating beautiful demons, he felt cheated that Kobal had managed to make this ... *thing*! L'Envie ignored him with a shrug. What does Lust know of style? And more importantly, Lust can really put stains and creases into a perfectly well tailored jacket -- it simply isn't worth the effort. The demon prince of Fate glared at the glittering thing which painted swathes of colour over the mortal world. What business did Kobal have inventing something which could predict every little nuance and trend so damned accurately? L'Envie yawned and stood up on his appointment with Kronos to get himself fitted for a new coat instead. Fate can be amusing, yes, but hardly chic. Unless you like the black, gloomy goth look. The demon prince of the Game invited him for a quiet drink and quiet words. How had humour made this thing which made mortals dance to new rules around itself. What was the angle? What was the game? L'Envie was curious enough to turn up and admire Asmodeus' water-gardens. But he shrugged and found the Game singularly unamusing and humourless and that would hardly do at all. Politely, he excused himself and went to the opera instead. A much more glamorous endeavour all around. Kobal suggested politely to his masterpiece that it might want to annoy Lust further by gathering recruits from precisely the kind of angels who Andrealphas set his eyes on. L'Envie has a marvellous sense of humour, he claims (how else can one explain Jean-Paul Gaultier?), and decided that this was a most appropriate idea -- and it also allows him to exercise his shallow critical faculties. At some point very soon after his creation he garnered a word and settled in Paris, where he continues to impress his employer by the idiotic things people are persuaded to wear and spend their money on. As the supreme arbiter of fashion, he has a touching knack for working out what people will be wearing, hearing and doing -- enough to make a servitor of Fate blanche with envy. But he only uses it to predict the cut and colour of the next season's coats. Ruleswise: He has charisma +5. And none of that is due to his personality, which is maximally fickle. Maybe he really is Lucifer, slumming it with style. (Hey, it's just a rumour ;) ) - --- (And.. a double act) Phosphorus, Habbalite of Dark Humour, Demon of Over-Reaction A manic individual with a variety of wild-eyed vessels with bitten fingernails. It has an absolute genius for creating scenes in shops over being shortchanged by a penny or two and a true thespian's eye for how much stimulation a crowd of observers can take before they will join in of their own accord. It happily encourages ranters of all persuasions, especially if the subject of the rant is particularly trivial Its favourite hobby is playing Monopoly, but it gets driven into a screaming frenzy of paranoia by comments such as 'lighten up dude, its only a game.' Has quite a good relationship with Malphas. Plumbum, Djinn of Dark Humour, Demon of Under-Reaction A particularly stoic Djinn which has a nice selection in one-word put-downs and particularly good comic timing. It is actually one of the funniest demons in hell, which is amusing because it also has one of the worst senses of humour. Actually failing to 'get' just about every joke going was one of the reasons Kobal originally decided to forward its name for the word. Has a selection of roles as policemen, traffic wardens and other exceedingly humourless civil servants, such as employees at the job centre and benefit office. The word of Over-Exaggeration for Comic Effect is still open, and has half of the unworded Balseraphs in Kobal's organisation vying for it ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 08:42:33 -0500 From: Andrew Frades Subject: Re: IN> Kyrio Question Ziggy wrote: > > Ok, I know there haen't been many of these, and I'm sorry if this one's > been explained somewhere, but: > > What is the difference between skills and abilities? Kyrios of Jean get > to use their hosts skills, while Kyrios of Zadkiel (AA of Protection from > H&H) get tose their hosts abilities. Is there a difference? I would read this as skills being simply skills. Abilities are all those things that are not skills such as attunements, songs, artifacts, etc. Andrew ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #689 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.