From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Mar 23 14:40:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA14700 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 14:40:44 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id MAA26709 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 12:41:09 -0600 Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 12:41:09 -0600 Message-Id: <199803231841.MAA26709@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #690 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, March 23 1998 Volume 01 : Number 690 In this digest: IN> Why Uriel got pulled out Re: IN> Re: Sharon Re: IN> Re: Sharon Re: IN> Re: Sharon Re: IN>Kobal's big joke Re: IN> IN Slang, Take Two Re: Rewards and character evolution (was Re: IN> Re: IN- Free Lilim) Re: IN> in_nomine-l acronyms Re: IN> Kyrio Question Re: IN> Re: IN- Ramped advancement? Re: IN> Ancient Angels? IN> Uriel. Re: Rewards and character evolution (was Re: IN> Re: IN- Free Lilim) Re: Rewards and character evolution (was Re: IN> Re: IN- Free Lilim) Re: IN> Ancient Angels? Re: IN> Ramped advancement? Re: IN> Re: IN- Ramped advancement? Re: Rewards and character evolution (was Re: IN> Re: IN- Free Lilim) Re: IN> Kyrio Question Re: IN> Ancient Angels? Re: IN> Bound! Re: IN> Kyrio Question Re: IN> Re: Sharon Re: IN> Ancient Angels? Re: IN> An apology for Uriel Re: IN> Ramped advancement? Re: IN> Ramped advancement? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 09:01:06 EST From: JFZeigler Subject: IN> Why Uriel got pulled out I think of it in terms of process theology. Angels are, in a sense, facets of God's personality. But as the universe changes, so does God. Sometimes God recognizes that one of His own aspects, once useful and appropriate, no longer fits new circumstances. God doesn't destroy angels. Maybe He can't, since that would be a kind of self-destruction. But He can "retire" them by calling them to the Higher Heavens. Maybe Uriel got removed from the game because God decided the universe needed more diversity than the Angel of Purity was willing to allow. - ---------- Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, freelance writer, amateur historian, science fiction fan, occasional scribbler of bad poetry JFZeigler@aol.com "Never speak for others. You can get in enough trouble speaking for yourself." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 15:04:27 +0100 (MET) From: David Skogsberg Subject: Re: IN> Re: Sharon On Fri, 20 Mar 1998, Hart, Joanna wrote: > Oops, sorry. I sent that to the wrong email. (Don't you just hate Friday > afternoons...) No, 'cos then I'm usually on my way to an inebriated state... cd - -- d97skog@dtek.chalmers.se | cd skogsberg ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 14:25:51 -0000 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: Re: IN> Re: Sharon - ---David Skogsberg wrote: > > On Fri, 20 Mar 1998, Hart, Joanna wrote: > > > Oops, sorry. I sent that to the wrong email. (Don't you just hate Friday > > afternoons...) > > No, 'cos then I'm usually on my way to an inebriated state... > > cd You're Swedish, aren't you? ;-) ;-) jo ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 15:53:12 +0100 (MET) From: David Skogsberg Subject: Re: IN> Re: Sharon On Mon, 23 Mar 1998, Hart, Joanna wrote: > ---David Skogsberg wrote: > > > > On Fri, 20 Mar 1998, Hart, Joanna wrote: > > > > > Oops, sorry. I sent that to the wrong email. (Don't you just hate Friday > > > afternoons...) > > > > No, 'cos then I'm usually on my way to an inebriated state... > > > > cd > > You're Swedish, aren't you? ;-) ;-) Gee, how'd you guess? And anyway, friday afternoons usually herald the arrival of two days of blessed relaxation, even if no drunkenness is involved. cd - -- d97skog@dtek.chalmers.se | cd skogsberg ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 07:27:17 -0800 (PST) From: Querent Subject: Re: IN>Kobal's big joke You can't see the fnords, can you? - ---Nana Yaw Ofori wrote: > > At 7:42 PM -0500 3/20/98, Querent wrote: > >There's been a lot of speculation as to what Kobal's "big joke" is. > > > >Duh. > > > >Any diligent reader of the Weekly World News can tell you that the > >Chinese have on several occasions organized "mass jumpings". > >Thousands of Chinese nationals jump in unison in an effort to shift > >the orbit of the Earth. > > > >An asteroid is on a course for our solar system in the year 2028. > >Scientists argue about whether it will hit. Current theory is no. > >But, that assumes that Earth's orbit doesn't change. This is why > >Kobal organizes such mass jumpings. > > > > Problem is...it doesn't work. You jump off the planet, and the > planet moves away an infinitesimal amount. But it moves back almost exactly > the same amount when you land. No momentum change unless you don't come > back down... == --Querent, Angel of Widescreen. Mercurian Servitor of Creation. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 10:40:09 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> IN Slang, Take Two On Fri, Mar 20, 1998 at 12:46:42PM -0500, Emily Dresner wrote: > > CABBAGE: Originally for 'cherubs', now a catch-all term for Player > Characters. Coined by Archangel Beth. > I give up. Why? > BALSERAPH HAIR: Term for a, well, Bal's hair, which is always good. > Trust me. "Your hair is so good it could be Balseraph Hair!" > My hair is desperate, as is my attire, and I am most definitely a Balseraph. I don't think there's any question about that in those who I deal with on a regular basis. Balseraph hair is not always good. > > THIEFIES: Term used for those who serve Valefor. They can dress, man. > If you just call them "thieves" it's much better. That way Seraphim of the Wind can pretend to be Servitors of Valefor, with an absolutely straight face. > MICHAELITES: Those who serve War. > Or Michelins, in honour of the tyre company. > GABRIELITES: Those who serve Fire. > For those on either side of the Fire divide who are into too much Smiting, how about Toaster? Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "as for their relations with others, that is a long story, but it can be expressed shortly and clearly by saying that of all people we know the Spartans are most conspicuous for believing that what they like doing is honourable and what suits their interests is just." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 10:55:59 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: Rewards and character evolution (was Re: IN> Re: IN- Free Lilim) On Fri, Mar 20, 1998 at 02:50:00PM -0500, Walter Milliken wrote: > [Kevin:] > >I'd personally like guidelines for how long it takes to learn a skill > >or improve it beyond a certain level, as well as what else it requires. > >How far is constant practice going to take you before you need more > >training? How does Intelligence factor in? > > I suspect IN will not publish canon rules for this -- Steve has made it > quite clear that he wants IN to be much more "mechanics light" than > GURPS, which does address such questions. > I didn't want mechanics as such. Guidelines are different from mechanics, IMO. > I suggest you borrow the GURPS rules (1 cp = 200 hours of hard study, > sometimes half-speed if you don't have a teacher). There is the problem that not all character points are equal in value. I think moving from 3 in a skill to 4 in a skill should be harder than moving from 0 to 1, which should only take a couple of hours with a good teacher, if you're paying attention. (I'm basing this on my own experience.) I hate seeing skills at level 6, because it seems to me like that's the kind of thing you should only get if you spend 2-3 hours a day practicing them, and should decrease if you fail to practice them. The characters I make these days usually only have one or two skills at level 4, if that. Songs tend to be slightly higher in order to have a reasonable chance of singing them. There also a useful > Roleplayer article from a long way back on learning skills in GURPS that > might be adaptable to IN: > > http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/Roleplayer/Roleplayer18/QuickLearning.html > I'll have a look at that sometime. > I believe you can improve your own characteristics yourself, and if you > build them up to the point where an additional Force would be implied, > you get that automatically. Otherwise adding a Force requires a > Superior to "glue it on". That more or less agrees with my instincts on the matter. I vaguely recall this being mentioned > somewhere in canon as being a feature for demons who don't want the boss > to know how powerful they're getting.... > I can't imagine how you'd survive in a place like Gehenna without that option. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "as for their relations with others, that is a long story, but it can be expressed shortly and clearly by saying that of all people we know the Spartans are most conspicuous for believing that what they like doing is honourable and what suits their interests is just." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 11:42:24 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> in_nomine-l acronyms On Sun, Mar 22, 1998 at 07:39:23PM -0800, David Streeter wrote: > WOD = World Of Darkness, some Vampire supplement (?), which people > insist on comparing IN to. Sorry. It would be dissonant for me to ignore this. "A World of Darkness" is, indeed, a sourcebook published under White Wolf's Vampire line. The World of Darkness itself, however, is the setting of Vampire, and Werewolf, and Mage, and Wraith, and Changeling, though not Trinity. This is the primary meaning ascribed to thw WOD, and when you see that acronym in a discussion, you can take it that that is what is being referred to. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "as for their relations with others, that is a long story, but it can be expressed shortly and clearly by saying that of all people we know the Spartans are most conspicuous for believing that what they like doing is honourable and what suits their interests is just." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 11:47:16 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Kyrio Question On Sun, Mar 22, 1998 at 11:49:43PM -0600, Ziggy wrote: > Ok, I know there haen't been many of these, and I'm sorry if this one's > been explained somewhere, but: > > What is the difference between skills and abilities? Kyrios of Jean get > to use their hosts skills, Surely you mean Kyrios of Yves. while Kyrios of Zadkiel (AA of Protection from > H&H) get tose their hosts abilities. Is there a difference? > One possibility is that abilities include Songs and attunements as well as skills, should the host possess such. Have you checked the errata for H&H? Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "as for their relations with others, that is a long story, but it can be expressed shortly and clearly by saying that of all people we know the Spartans are most conspicuous for believing that what they like doing is honourable and what suits their interests is just." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 12:00:12 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Ramped advancement? On Sun, Mar 22, 1998 at 08:00:26PM -0800, David Streeter wrote: > >very rapidly doing this? Imean, if a character is getting 2-4 or more > >character points per playing session, they could theoretically buy > >themselves a new song at level 6 every other game session. > 1-2 is the standard, surely. And of course they'd have to convince you why their Superior would spend so much effort doing a mind dump that big, and how it is that they managed not to learn anything about detectling lies, or driving, or whatever. If they insist on putting all their xp into something unrelated to what they actually did during the session, ask them if they really think they learned nothing during the session. Also, as long as adventures don't pop up every week, character advancement proceeding in bursts shouldn't be a problem. > > This, of course, is to encourage players to specialise in their starting > abilities & keep variety in the party, rather than all players > eventually having Numinous Corpus Acid/6 because it's the most > effective. > If you make NC:Acid based on Precision alone, with no addition of Fighting Skill, it becomes usefully different. It places a premium on learning it at high levels, of course, but not that much more than with most Songs. The big problem is with singing it. I admit that I haven't been playing for very long, but I fail to see how characters can end up copying each other's speciality. Most Roles have 7 or 8 Skills associated with them, and even specialised starting characters are going to have plenty of room for improvement with them. > I have a question, though - can one angel teach a song to another angel? > Of do you have to be taught by a superior? > > I imagine the best would be "Celestials can teach each other new songs, > but need to ask for permission first". > I'd tend to agree with that. After all, Sorcerors can learn songs from Ethereals, and snotlings. A Bright Dream suggests that Celestials can teach Songs to Soldiers. And given that a Song is a sequence of words, gestures, and (most importantly) mental patterns, there seems to be no logical reason that one Celestial couldn't teach one to another. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "as for their relations with others, that is a long story, but it can be expressed shortly and clearly by saying that of all people we know the Spartans are most conspicuous for believing that what they like doing is honourable and what suits their interests is just." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 12:11:56 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Ancient Angels? > > There is a seperate question of the relation of "age" to "experience", but > as Celestials can spend a long time doing things that wouldn't provide much > in the way of experience points it isn't hard to rack up a fair number of > years without getting too much milage. How Celestials who are active on > Earth for more than a few deacdes fail to go from 9 Forces to 18 and bulk > goodies is a question I am still a bit hazy on. > Because if you're not continually stretching your skills, they tend to settle around levels 2 or 3, IMO. Essentially, if Drive 1 is enough to get you anywhere, why bother improving your skill, assuming you're not in regular high-speed chases? And over time, they can forget how to do things that they used to be able to do, though a GM should probably be charitable in allowing them to "rebuy" them. And so they've constantly been pouring experience into maintaining their skill level. Also, some skills require study, which an angel mightn't be willing or even able to put in. Servitors of the Wind or Theft, especially, probably find it quite hard to changes in technology because they can't stay in one place long enough to apply themselves to studying something. (I find this very ironic, personally.) So being constantly on Earth may actually erode their skill base and render it obsolete. And there are certain skills which some occupations/lifestyles may discourage you from learning. There are lots of reasons why they wouldn't necessarily advance quickly on Earth. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "as for their relations with others, that is a long story, but it can be expressed shortly and clearly by saying that of all people we know the Spartans are most conspicuous for believing that what they like doing is honourable and what suits their interests is just." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 13:27:33 +0000 From: "Ad." Subject: IN> Uriel. I've been thinking about what would have happened if Uriel's actions hadn't been questioned and if he hadn't been called away. So, he finishes off what he set out to do, the Ethereals are gone. What next, here's one idea, Kyriotates, Alien, disgusting perversions of the purity of angels. They interfere with the free will of humans, they've even been heard to deny that man was made in God's image. And, everyone knows what they become. Every self respecting angel should oppose them. Every last one should be destroyed because heaven is too good for them. Especially Jordi who refuses to acknowledge that man was God's main creation whom the animals should serve. He even wanted to defend the Ethereals. And next, Ofanim, madness, or destruction, Calabim or Gabriel, sometimes like Belial, a bit of both. Destroy them all, purify heaven. Mercurians, they love humanity so much that they forget that they must be willing to destroy impurity. They are not to be trusted. They must not be tolerated. Hmmmm... the purification of Heaven, Uriel could not avoid it, if you want Malakim to be the only angelic characters available, support Uriel. Or he could start on Earth, hey, you, you're too tall, you must be destroyed. Run far, run fast. Or maybe he's already at work in the higher heavens - you climb up that ladder, and if you don't fit Uriel's idea of purity you are soul killed instantly, or put to work serving the pure.... urg. Malakim may never fall, but believe it or not there are worse things than falling. Adam, Impudite of Gluttony. -- "The seas boiled and the living envied the dead. All was shattered and all but memory lost, and one memory above all others, of him who brought the Shadow and the Breaking of the World. And him they named Dragon." - - from: The Breaking of the World, Author Unknown, Fourth Age. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 11:02:51 -0500 From: John Karakash - LUCENT ASCC Subject: Re: Rewards and character evolution (was Re: IN> Re: IN- Free Lilim) Walter Milliken wrote: > Roughly like the Chaosium system, if I recall it right. This lends > itself to the "I'll use every skill I can to qualify for improvement" > munchkin syndrome. The canonical case, paraphrased: > > PC#1: "Why are you using that battle axe on the troll? You're a > broadsword expert!" > > PC#2: "Because I don't know how to use an axe, and this is the only way > to learn." > > I far prefer the point-based advancement systems myself, with some GM > guidance/aproval in spending points. I normally only let people spend > points on things they could plausibly acquire or improve, and my players > are pretty good about this. Of course, good players aren't subject to > munchkinism, anyway. I had a composite system worked out for Runequest that was a mixture of the two ideas. Everyone would get a certain number of 'advancements' each session. You can spend these on skills you had been practicing either inside or outside of playtime. This did mean that sometimes people would use weapons they were uncomfortable with, but they wouldn't try to use eight different things in the same melee! ("Wait, wait! Don't die yet! I haven't had a chance to use my Bec-de-Corbin!") - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 11:10:28 -0500 From: John Karakash - LUCENT ASCC Subject: Re: Rewards and character evolution (was Re: IN> Re: IN- Free Lilim) Walter Milliken wrote: > >Concerning points, how does characteristic advancement, as opposed to > >Force purchasing, work? Can you develop your characteristics yourself, or > >do you have to ask your Superior to increase them for you? > > I believe you can improve your own characteristics yourself, and if you > build them up to the point where an additional Force would be implied, > you get that automatically. Otherwise adding a Force requires a > Superior to "glue it on". I vaguely recall this being mentioned > somewhere in canon as being a feature for demons who don't want the boss > to know how powerful they're getting.... I proposed this as 'semi-canon'. Stuff I strongly suggested, but hadn't been approved by the Seraphim Council. ;) IMO, the granting of a Force is a major reward by a Superior. Forces are the benchmark against which celestials measure each other (and other beings as well!) and aren't granted lightly. OTOH, if you sweat your way up by building up your characteristics (which I regard as not having to go through a Superior), you can get extra forces on the sly. Sure, it's more expensive (12cp vs 10), but it can be done without help and it doesn't attract as much attention (important for the infernal characters especially). I imagine there might be demons out there who have built up their characteristics slowly so that they are almost ready to get Forces in all three realms and are just biding their time so they can take out their immediate superior. Heh-heh-heh. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 11:09:22 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Ancient Angels? Besides forgetfulness -- the Angelic Player's Guide says that, aside from their early years, most celestials can't remember much that happened more than ten thousand years ago -- I think lack of Earth duty would keep even ancient angels from getting overloaded with skills. The TV show "Touched by an Angel" uses a version of this. One of the two main characters, Monica, is said in one show to be 80,000 years old. It's not clear this is meant very seriously, but take it for the sake of argument. She has spend the bulk of this time in "the Choir," where "everybody starts out." Very recently, in fact about 1940, she began doing Annunciations ("Fear not," etc.). From there, she went to Search & Rescue, and she has only recently (i.e. at the beginning of the series) started doing Case Work. It is notable that, despite ages in the Choir, her voice on Earth is not celestial at all and other angels occasionally ask her not to sing. We are told in one episode (by an archangel) that it is being on Earth itself that does this, and *she* can't sing for sour apples while on Earth either. So skills may not be transferrable from realm to realm, or skills for one realm may quickly erode if a lot of time is spent in another realm. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 11:14:51 -0500 From: John Karakash - LUCENT ASCC Subject: Re: IN> Ramped advancement? Sean K Reynolds wrote: > > OK, in the IN rulebook, characters that have gotten achievement points > for successful missions can spend them to buy resources at the same cost > as at character creation. Has anyone noticed that characters can advance > very rapidly doing this? Imean, if a character is getting 2-4 or more > character points per playing session, they could theoretically buy > themselves a new song at level 6 every other game session. In my campaign (definitely NOT canon, but a good idea) you cannot get more than one level of any Song/Skill/etc per game session. This makes a lot of sense and also is a simple rule of thumb. If someone becomes an expert at a Song in SIX game session, this is not unreasonable. They mere were focussing very intently on that ability and had a knack for it. (For scenarios that run longer than one game session, the increase might be limited to once per scenario... it all depends.) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 11:20:40 -0500 From: John Karakash - LUCENT ASCC Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Ramped advancement? David Streeter wrote: > > I have a question, though - can one angel teach a song to another angel? > Of do you have to be taught by a superior? > > I imagine the best would be "Celestials can teach each other new songs, > but need to ask for permission first". A little of both, but not quite. This will be covered in detail in the Songbook, but it's looking like this so far: Certain celestials will have an Attunement that lets them grant Songs to others. Of course, this is a great responsibility and their superior will be very displeased if it is used without due care and consideration. Certain Songs probably can only be 'taught' with explicit permission (depending on the Superior). Songs, unlike skills, are enhancements on the personal symphony of the being in question. It is theoretically possible for a being to create a new Song, but such a process would be long and arduous. The easist way is to simply have another being that knows the Song (and has the ability to do the necessary adjustments) do the dirty work of adding a new string to another. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 11:27:34 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: Rewards and character evolution (was Re: IN> Re: IN- Free Lilim) John Karakash: > IMO, the granting of a Force is a major reward by > a Superior. Forces are the benchmark against which celestials > measure each other (and other beings as well!) and aren't > granted lightly. This brings up an issue I have put to the list a few times. In most games, things like character points and hit points are just features of the mechanics and have no reality for the characters. But it seems that Forces, being so coarse- grained, and spoken of as they are in canon, may be things that the celestial characters *are* aware of. Clearly, this is the way your campaign works it. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 11:31:11 -0500 From: John Karakash - LUCENT ASCC Subject: Re: IN> Kyrio Question Ziggy wrote: > > Ok, I know there haen't been many of these, and I'm sorry if this one's > been explained somewhere, but: > > What is the difference between skills and abilities? Kyrios of Jean get > to use their hosts skills, while Kyrios of Zadkiel (AA of Protection from > H&H) get tose their hosts abilities. Is there a difference? Both are identical, but should include one thing (that I _should_ have caught, darn it). The 'skill' that goes along with a Role for a being is included in the package. So if you take over a bartender as a Kyrio of Jean/Zadkiel, you'll still know how to tend bar (at least as well as the host!) Most of the time you don't roll against this freebie 'skill' (at least in my campaign). If you know how to make a Margarita, you do. If you absolutely need to make a roll in the case where a human is being possessed, using the Status of the human as a rough indicator of their skill works well enough. Or the GM can just fudge it (my personal suggestion). If the NPC is a good bartender, give 'em a 3 or 4. If he's a part-timer, they have a 1 or 2. If they are a GREAT bartender (and they exist!) they will have a 5 or 6. No problemo. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 11:37:24 -0500 From: John Karakash - LUCENT ASCC Subject: Re: IN> Ancient Angels? Peter Frederick wrote: > There is a seperate question of the relation of "age" to "experience", but > as Celestials can spend a long time doing things that wouldn't provide much > in the way of experience points it isn't hard to rack up a fair number of > years without getting too much milage. How Celestials who are active on > Earth for more than a few deacdes fail to go from 9 Forces to 18 and bulk > goodies is a question I am still a bit hazy on. Simple. Superiors rarely grant Forces... plus you can always lose some in celestial combat now and then. Likewise, a servitor might get ordered to help produce a new angel/demon (which requires a permanent expenditure of Forces... sometimes quite a few!). - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 11:56:13 -0500 From: John Karakash - LUCENT ASCC Subject: Re: IN> Bound! Walter Milliken wrote: > > >If a celestial has the Bound discord, but more than one vessel, are > >there any problems changing vessels? Can a celestial with the Bound > >discord have more than one vessel? > > I would think changing vessels would have the same problems as going > celestial. It's probably not terribly helpful to have more than one > vessel with Bound. You can have multiple vessels but, as Walter surmised, it's not easy to switch between them. > >If a celestial is bound to an object, and that object is destroyed, what > >happens? For that matter, if he is bound to his vessel, and the vessel > >is slain, what happens? > > I think John Karakesh answered the latter question a while back, but it > doesn't seem to be in the FAQ. Hmmmm, this _does_ seem vaguely familiar. Here's the scoop, then (it'll be in the next FAQ): If you are bound into a vessel, you are in DEEP doo-doo. Since you cannot ascend to the celestial plane, your traumatized soul hangs around the dead body for the entire time of the Trauma. Yep, anybody can come along and toast you until you are destroyed. Ouch! After that point, things aren't much brighter. You are forced to be near the mortal remains (suggested distance: 6 yards minus the level of the Bound Discord). The situation is similar when bound into an artifact if it's the ONLY vessel the being owns. If they have another vessel, they will take Dissonance up until they point the item is destroyed. Then they will fall into Trauma (their current vessel will vanish back into potentiality) and their spirit gets sucked over the broken item. Follow the above scenario. In either case, if another vessel is available, that one can be manifested near the destroyed vessel after the trauma ends. Several options follow (this can be expanded upon by creative GMs!) * Repair the broken item/vessel somehow and this will take you back to the status quo. (This is a rough one for vessels, but with help or certain artifacts/songs it could be managed.) * Bind self to another vessel/item. The old one can be trashed at this point. Increase the level of the discord by at least one to take this option. If the being does not have another vessel to do this with, then binding into an object is the only other option here. If the Discord was already at 6, then a new level of some other discord (GMs option) is added on. Probably something suitable to the means used to destroy the old vessel/item. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 12:11:13 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Kyrio Question > Most of the time you don't roll against this > freebie 'skill' (at least in my campaign). If you > know how to make a Margarita, you do. If you absolutely > need to make a roll in the case where a human is > being possessed, using the Status of the human as a > rough indicator of their skill works well enough. > Or the GM can just fudge it (my personal suggestion). > If the NPC is a good bartender, give 'em a 3 or 4. > If he's a part-timer, they have a 1 or 2. If they > are a GREAT bartender (and they exist!) they will > have a 5 or 6. No problemo. A Great Bartender? Okay, John, cough it up. We want names, addresses, directions, and times the places are open. :) No fair hording that information away from the needy. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 17:12:45 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Re: Sharon > > > No, 'cos then I'm usually on my way to an inebriated state... > > > What's so good about being inebriated? It inhibits your capacity for rational argument. It weakens your perceptions, so that other people will be more easily able to take advantage of you, and it costs money which might be better spent on roleplaying games. > > > > You're Swedish, aren't you? ;-) ;-) > > Gee, how'd you guess? > I miss the connection. Is there something specifically Swedish about drinking on Friday? > And anyway, friday afternoons usually herald the arrival of two days of > blessed relaxation, even if no drunkenness is involved. > For me, it's two days of being stuck with my family, and not having instant access to a computer from which I can explore the wonders of mailing lists, Usenet, etc. Also, I hate the fact that I keep getting new inspirations on Saturday, which I can't type until Monday. Weekends are bad. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "He was wont moreover to complain openly of the condition of the times wherein he lived, as not being renowned by any public calamities...And, at times, he wished for some terrible carnage of his armies, a famine, a pestilence, conflagrations, or an earthquake." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 98 12:08 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Ancient Angels? >Ok my question is this are all Celestials been there since the >begining of times or have some new ones have risen through the ages? A lot of the canon in this area is in the APG (Angelic Player's Guide) and the forthcoming IPG. Most celestials are relatively young (a few thousand years at most, I would guess) -- only the oldest date back to the start of the universe. PCs, in particular, are assumed to be relatively new celestials, at least for Earth duty. This isn't very clear in the main book, but is explained in the APG. The APG (and IPG) also includes various suggestions for creating older characters. > If they are new, how does this >happens? This is in the main book -- Superiors create new Servitors when they feel like it. There are also rules in the APG and IPG for celestials to "breed", though it still requires a Superior's assistance (in canon, anyway). - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 12:20:50 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> An apology for Uriel On Sun, 22 Mar 1998, Heretic103 wrote: > I believe that uriel is has been send to his room for a timeout untill he can > say he is sorry. Imagine a not so happry god grabbing him by his ear and > taking him to the higher heavens. :) :) But, there has been no real explanation of why uriel was taken or what is hapening to him (or her, whatever; I just seem to visualize him as Rutger Hauer for some reason). Your theory could be correct. My theory could be correct. The theory of the Cult of Purification could even be correct. But I doubt it. Rich Gant still out of character ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 98 12:16 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Ramped advancement? > Imean, if a character is getting 2-4 or more >character points per playing session, they could theoretically buy >themselves a new song at level 6 every other game session. I worry more about Forces than Songs, but yes, advancement can be fairly rapid. This is an area where GM discretion is *very* important. I'm only giving 1-2 points per session, and Superior rewards only at the end of an adventure (which in my groups tends to take 3+ sessions). Another way to control character points is to enforce the dissonance rules carefully -- if characters are taking dissonance/Discord occasionally, it can sop up some of those points to get rid of it. I don't really worry about characters picking up Songs and skills -- there are enough of those to keep them busy for quite a while, and many Songs and skills have limited circumstances where they're useful. (Also, the Songbook will add a lot of new Songs when it comes out.) Anyone who really wants a Song or two at 6 won't have any trouble picking them up at character creation, anyway. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 10:29:29 -0800 From: Dale Friesen Subject: Re: IN> Ramped advancement? Kevin Walsh wrote: >On Sun, Mar 22, 1998 at 08:00:26PM -0800, David Streeter wrote: >> >very rapidly doing this? Imean, if a character is getting 2-4 or more >> >character points per playing session, they could theoretically buy >> >themselves a new song at level 6 every other game session. >> >1-2 is the standard, surely. And of course they'd have to convince you why >their Superior would spend so much effort doing a mind dump that big, and >how it is that they managed not to learn anything about detectling lies, >or driving, or whatever. If they insist on putting all their xp into >something unrelated to what they actually did during the session, ask them >if they really think they learned nothing during the session. So what are character points representing, within the context of IN canon? I propose that they signify the growth of the character's Symphonic theme (think of them as crescendo points, if you like). In other words, the character has a specific role (or gig, to keep the metaphor consistent), and as his/her actions advance that role the theme grows within the Symphony, building toward a cadence (the spending of the points). Whether the purchase is an Attunement or a skill or a Song or anything else is irrelevant; they're just different types of cadences. The point is that the Symphony recognizes the contributions of the character, and builds toward an emphasis, thus giving greater overall importance to the character's theme. What this means, imho, is that character points are significantly different from experience points, and thus can certainly be spend on skills they haven't used, or anything else the GM cares to permit. Of course characters learn about driving by driving a lot, but not necessarily enough to increment their skill level. If the worst trained driver is skill level one and a pro is skill level six there's an awful lot of room for improvement without actually changing the number. Character points thus are the wrong way to represent learning through doing, which (again, just imho) should be represented by GM rewards at the end of a campaign. Any opinions expressed are mine and not necessarily the book store's. Dale Friesen Sysadmin Bolen Books, Inc Victoria, BC Canada dfriesen@amtsgi.bc.ca http://www.bolen.bc.ca ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #690 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.