From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Mar 23 17:48:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA26646 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 17:48:03 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id QAA31268 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 16:22:36 -0600 Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 16:22:36 -0600 Message-Id: <199803232222.QAA31268@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #691 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, March 23 1998 Volume 01 : Number 691 In this digest: IN> List Consensus (was Re: IN> Anti-Puritans) Re: Rewards and character evolution (was Re: IN> Re: IN- Free Lilim) Re: Rewards and character evolution (was Re: IN> Re: IN- Free Lilim) Re: IN> List Consensus (was Re: IN> Anti-Puritans) Re: IN> Kyrio Question Re: IN> List Consensus (was Re: IN> Anti-Puritans) Re: IN> Ramped advancement? Re: Rewards and character evolution (was Re: IN> Re: IN- Free Lilim) Re: IN> Haagenti's Menu Re: IN> vessels? IN> Re: IN- Ramped advancement? IN> Jax, the Angel of Gargoyles IN> Dameron, the Demon Prince of Slavery Re: IN> Re: Sharon Re: IN> Ramped advancement? Re: IN> Ramped advancement? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 10:29:15 -0800 From: Dale Friesen Subject: IN> List Consensus (was Re: IN> Anti-Puritans) >> Okay, I guess this was a little harsh in its preconception, but I >> was just trying to get my point across. > >Ummm - maybe it's just me, but I think you've just pretty well >outlined the consensus the list had reached a while ago about >Uriel... > >(Don't feel too bad - I did the same thing with the Janus/Valefor >thing, when I actually took a second to compare their attunements. >It's something to think about before you post, though; are you >preaching to the choir?) So, for those of us who have joined the list recently, where can we find list consensi reached before we signed on? eg I'm interested in Janus/Valefor, but I expect most list members might be tired of the subject (if they'd reached consensus already, then you brought it up again). I guess I'm asking if there's a FAQ or archive (or both). tia Any opinions expressed are mine and not necessarily the book store's. Dale Friesen Sysadmin Bolen Books, Inc Victoria, BC Canada dfriesen@amtsgi.bc.ca http://www.bolen.bc.ca ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 98 13:30 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: Rewards and character evolution (was Re: IN> Re: IN- Free Lilim) [Kevin, about skill learning:] >I didn't want mechanics as such. Guidelines are different from mechanics, >IMO. There's not *that* much difference, other than how rigid they're supposed to be. I doubt there'll be much in the way of this in official IN stuff. >> I suggest you borrow the GURPS rules (1 cp = 200 hours of hard study, >> sometimes half-speed if you don't have a teacher). > >There is the problem that not all character points are equal in value. I >think moving from 3 in a skill to 4 in a skill should be harder than >moving from 0 to 1, which should only take a couple of hours with a good >teacher, if you're paying attention. This is why GURPS uses a partly-progressive cost model for skills, though it does eventually level out in cost/level. IN seems to have opted for simplicity over realism. If you want more realism in IN, you're going to have to change a lot of things beyond skill progression.... > I hate seeing skills at level 6, because it seems to me like >that's the kind of thing you should only get if you spend 2-3 hours a day >practicing them, and should decrease if you fail to practice them. This is a level of realism even GURPS dropped -- at one time during the original playtest, it apparently had skill practice and deterioration rules, which were so much trouble they were trashed. I can't see messing with this level of complexity in IN. I suppose you could do something simple like only allow skill/6 in conjuction with a Role that frequently exercised it, or as part of a celestial's main job description, if they don't have a Role they spend most of their time in. It's also worth keeping in mind that celestials aren't human, and it's not necessarily true that what's realistic for humans is realistic for celestials. (Of course, the game rules don't make a distinction, but they also don't model humans as well as they do celestials.) - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 98 13:35 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: Rewards and character evolution (was Re: IN> Re: IN- Free Lilim) > I imagine there might be demons out there who have >built up their characteristics slowly so that they are >almost ready to get Forces in all three realms and are >just biding their time so they can take out their immediate >superior. Heh-heh-heh. Then there's Elizabeth's Lilim character in our game, who is increasing characteristics, but avoiding gaining new Forces because it would make her noisier (switching vessels, going celestial, etc.), and she's rather paranoid about attracting attention (most from the Game, I think). - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 98 13:48 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> List Consensus (was Re: IN> Anti-Puritans) >So, for those of us who have joined the list recently, where can >we find list consensi reached before we signed on? eg I'm interested >in Janus/Valefor, but I expect most list members might be tired of >the subject (if they'd reached consensus already, then you brought >it up again). > >I guess I'm asking if there's a FAQ or archive (or both). http://www.sjgames.com/ftp/sjgames/in-nomine/digests/ is the URL for the archive of the mailing list. Be warned, there's a *lot* of stuff there. Fortunately, it's searchable -- that will probably cut things down a bit. There's no "executive summary" around for the various topics of discussion on the mailing list, though, except for those questions that make it into the FAQ. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 14:34:58 -0500 From: John Karakash - LUCENT ASCC Subject: Re: IN> Kyrio Question John Karakash - LUCENT ASCC wrote: > > Both are identical, but should include one thing > (that I _should_ have caught, darn it). The 'skill' that > goes along with a Role for a being is included in the > package. So if you take over a bartender as a Kyrio > of Jean/Zadkiel, you'll still know how to tend bar > (at least as well as the host!) [That should be Yves, btw. D'oh!] > Most of the time you don't roll against this > freebie 'skill' (at least in my campaign). If you > know how to make a Margarita, you do. If you absolutely > need to make a roll in the case where a human is > being possessed, using the Status of the human as a > rough indicator of their skill works well enough. > Or the GM can just fudge it (my personal suggestion). > If the NPC is a good bartender, give 'em a 3 or 4. > If he's a part-timer, they have a 1 or 2. If they > are a GREAT bartender (and they exist!) they will > have a 5 or 6. No problemo. > > -- > ___________________________________________________ > / \ > | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | > | (919)380-4629 | > | | > | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | > | -Chief Justice Marshall | > \___________________________________________________/ - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 14:30:43 -0500 From: Jesse Subject: Re: IN> List Consensus (was Re: IN> Anti-Puritans) >>Ummm - maybe it's just me, but I think you've just pretty well >>outlined the consensus the list had reached a while ago about >>Uriel... >So, for those of us who have joined the list recently, where can >we find list consensi reached before we signed on? eg I'm interested >in Janus/Valefor, but I expect most list members might be tired of >the subject (if they'd reached consensus already, then you brought >it up again). > >I guess I'm asking if there's a FAQ or archive (or both). If you can find a list consensus about anything I think the State Deparment may have a job opening for you in the Arab-Israeli talks. I bet we couldn't even agree on how long In Nomine's frist printing was delayed for. - -Jesse ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 20:19:45 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Ramped advancement? On Mon, Mar 23, 1998 at 10:29:29AM -0800, Dale Friesen wrote: > >1-2 is the standard, surely. And of course they'd have to convince you why > >their Superior would spend so much effort doing a mind dump that big, and > >how it is that they managed not to learn anything about detectling lies, > >or driving, or whatever. If they insist on putting all their xp into > >something unrelated to what they actually did during the session, ask them > >if they really think they learned nothing during the session. > > > What this means, imho, is that character points are significantly > different from experience points, and thus can certainly be spend on > skills they haven't used, or anything else the GM cares to permit. Given that experience points aren't named in the rulebook, but there are things called character points there which fit the general purpose of what other games call experience points, I see no reason not to treat them as the same thing. The purchase of new Songs and attunements is rationalised by saying it was the stuff you had to do to please your Superior, not the Symphony. Of > course characters learn about driving by driving a lot, but not > necessarily enough to increment their skill level. If the worst trained > driver is skill level one and a pro is skill level six there's an awful > lot of room for improvement without actually changing the number. There's an awful lot of room for improvement by changing the number. Such as moving it to level 2 from level 1. Anyway, the worst trained driver is the one who can't drive at all. > Character > points thus are the wrong way to represent learning through doing, which > (again, just imho) should be represented by GM rewards at the end of a > campaign. > You're confusing me now. In what way are character points different from GM rewards? And how do you propose to reward learning by doing, then? Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "He was wont moreover to complain openly of the condition of the times wherein he lived, as not being renowned by any public calamities...And, at times, he wished for some terrible carnage of his armies, a famine, a pestilence, conflagrations, or an earthquake." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 20:34:22 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: Rewards and character evolution (was Re: IN> Re: IN- Free Lilim) On Mon, Mar 23, 1998 at 01:30:00PM -0500, Walter Milliken wrote: > [Kevin, about skill learning:] > >I didn't want mechanics as such. Guidelines are different from mechanics, > >IMO. > > There's not *that* much difference, other than how rigid they're > supposed to be. Conceptually, there isn't that much difference, but in practice guidelines are easier to remember. I doubt there'll be much in the way of this in official > IN stuff. > It certainly doesn't look like it. > >There is the problem that not all character points are equal in value. I > >think moving from 3 in a skill to 4 in a skill should be harder than > >moving from 0 to 1, which should only take a couple of hours with a good > >teacher, if you're paying attention. > > This is why GURPS uses a partly-progressive cost model for skills, > though it does eventually level out in cost/level. IN seems to have > opted for simplicity over realism. If you want more realism in IN, > you're going to have to change a lot of things beyond skill > progression.... > It depends on what you mean by realism. In the IN universe, I find the idea of angels manifesting green flame on their hands to be more realistic than the same angels flipping over cars. (So long as they're not Strength 10-12.) Attunements, Songs and Vessels are magic, and shouldn't follow mundane rules. Knowing how to point a gun isn't, and should. > > I hate seeing skills at level 6, because it seems to me like > >that's the kind of thing you should only get if you spend 2-3 hours a day > >practicing them, and should decrease if you fail to practice them. > > This is a level of realism even GURPS dropped -- at one time during the > original playtest, it apparently had skill practice and deterioration > rules, which were so much trouble they were trashed. I wasn't intending to have rules for those things. Just that, should I ever be a GM, I'd think long and hard before allowing them, and that as a player, I'd think very long and hard before asking for them. And I'd like to see you using those skills IC. I can't see > messing with this level of complexity in IN. I suppose you could do > something simple like only allow skill/6 in conjuction with a Role that > frequently exercised it, or as part of a celestial's main job > description, if they don't have a Role they spend most of their time in. > Absolutely. It doesn't alter the system in any way, and makes something resembling sense. > It's also worth keeping in mind that celestials aren't human, and it's > not necessarily true that what's realistic for humans is realistic for > celestials. (Of course, the game rules don't make a distinction, but > they also don't model humans as well as they do celestials.) > No, but I think the material in the APG strongly implied that celestials learned by experience in a very similar way to humans (apart from mind-dumps by Superiors, of course). Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "He was wont moreover to complain openly of the condition of the times wherein he lived, as not being renowned by any public calamities...And, at times, he wished for some terrible carnage of his armies, a famine, a pestilence, conflagrations, or an earthquake." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 14:23:04 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Haagenti's Menu At 12:51 PM +0000 3/19/98, Julian Breen wrote: >So. Haagenti has devoured quite a few rivals on his way to the top and >we now find that he ate Mariel, Princess of Oblivion (it's in the LR). > >Who *was* the Prince of Sloth p. HH97, Perdition. Meserach was his name. >and did Haagenti also eat the >Princes/Princesses of Envy, Pride, and Wrath? It has not been stated that he did so... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 14:27:56 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> vessels? At 2:30 PM -0500 3/19/98, Soviet wrote: >Okay I have a couple of questions about vessels: > >1) when a celestial creates a vessel,does he really creates it? Celestials don't (generally) create vessels. Superiors do. Vessels *are* really created. With the exceptions of Kyriotates and Shedim, who possess humans. Semi-exception: Laurence's Kyrios have a special trick. >creates it then how does one explain the background for it,especially >those with high role and status? dothey just appear without no one >being the wiser? A combination of false paperwork, living the Role, and the occasional implanted memories. >2) on vessel death:ok when a vessel dies were does the character gets >the points to buy a new one? does he gets the exact amount of points >used in the first vessel or does he has to put new points for >it(losing those of the original vessel)? This is in the FAQ, if I recall correctly. Basically, it depends on the GM/Superior. If an Outcast or other Heartless celestial goes to Limbo because his vessel was slain, then he can (maybe) create a new one. This is, naturally, no character points (unless the GM wants there to be). The GM may decide that you get to have a "free" replacement of the same level as your old vessel. The GM may decide that you screwed up enough that your Superior will punish you by putting you in a *worse* vessel (for free; upgrade possible with points). The GM may decide that you have to pay the points. The GM may decide that you did *such* a good job that your Superior will replace your vessel at a higher level, for free! - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 15:55:01 -0500 From: Nana Yaw Ofori Subject: IN> Re: IN- Ramped advancement? >Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 20:00:26 PST >From: "David Streeter" >Subject: IN> Re: IN- Ramped advancement? [snip] >This, of course, is to encourage players to specialise in their starting >abilities & keep variety in the party, rather than all players >eventually having Numinous Corpus Acid/6 because it's the most >effective. > Unbelievably so. I think Paul Strack had a fix for that one, namely that when you're spitting acid, Power + Accuracy = Song's Level, so with Acid/6, you could spit a thin Accuracy-6, Power-0 stream, or hurl up a massive Power-6, Accuracy-0 gusher, or any combination inbetween. Me, I'm just surprised that a swarm of 30 insects (admittedly, Kyrio-driven) does more damage than a pistol. >I have a question, though - can one angel teach a song to another angel? >Of do you have to be taught by a superior? > >I imagine the best would be "Celestials can teach each other new songs, >but need to ask for permission first". > We've been playing is that way, without the "Must ask permission first" part, and requiring an absolute minimum of going through the full hour-long ritual to learn the Song. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 13:11:16 -0800 From: "Steven Feldon (Exchange)" Subject: IN> Jax, the Angel of Gargoyles This is an idea that's been banging around my head for quite a while, but I just found the energy to write him up last week. . . . steve Jax Angel of Gargoyles Kyriotate Friend of Stone, in service to Protection "The world is harsh; it is good to have a strong protector." Jax is an old angel. He doesn't remember the Fall, but he does remember when large towns and simple ports became the first cities. Jax began in the service of David, helping humans to build those cities. In time, he noticed that humans were now packed so tightly that it was possible for one to make a vocation of preying on another. He came to know that as good as David was in assisting the humans to grow, firm and hard but caring, nonetheless too many potentialities were being lost to those who would take what wasn't theirs, or to accidents that could be prevented. He petitioned to be released into the service of Zadkiel, the Archangel of Protection, and his petition was granted. For many hundreds of years, he tried to protect the defenseless and keep cities safe for those who deserved safety. Some of his vessels were terrible stone monsters; until the Purification Crusade, he had a stone dragon which was often seen flying over cities in Europe. . . . And this dragon was modeled. Humans began putting small statues, some amusing in countenance and some awful, on the tops of their buildings, hoping that these tokens would keep Jax pleased with them and their streets would be safe. And Jax saw this, and knew it was the next step in his mission. He applied for, and was granted, the word of Gargoyles. Because he was still a faithful servitor of both of his masters, they co-operated and helped him be one of the few non-Archangels with a Servitor Attunement. Corporeal Forces -- 6 Strength 12, Agility 12 Ethereal Forces -- 5, Intelligence 9, Precision 11 Celestial Forces -- 5 Will 12, Perception 9 Vessels: Human Male Statue/3, 10x Small Gargoyle/2, Stone Lion/2, Stone Dragon/5 Songs: Healing (Corporeal/5, Ethereal/3, Celestial/2), Numinous Corpus (Claws/3, Wings/6), Possession/5, Skills: [I'll fill this in later--I think selecting skills is more tedious than not. :/ ] Attunements: Kyriotate of Stone, Elohite of Stone, Mercurian of Stone, Deep Gaze, Vassal of Stone, Friend of the Subterranean World, Kyriotate of Protection, Malakite of Protection, Succor, Vassal of Protection Special Rites: Keep a stone vessel on the Corporeal Plane in a city without moving for twenty-four hours. Dissonance: Angels of Gargoyles are subject to the Dissonance conditions of both David and Zadkiel, as well as the one mentioned below in the Gargoyle attunement. However, due to the combination of the two influences, Jax's Angels are likely to wait long enough to see if a human is capable of helping themselves before rushing to their assistance, and to assist after the incident in helping to get someone information or training to avoid the situation again. Thus, helping a human before it is clear that they will not be able to salvage the situation themselves is Dissonant, as well. Angels of any choir in service to Gargoyles may purchase David's Kyriotate of Stone and Zadkiel's Malakite of Protection attunements at normal price. They may also purchase both the attunements of Protection and Stone for their Choir. They may not purchase other attunements from David or Zadkiel without proving their worth to the appropriate Archangel, although all attunements have been granted over the last thousand years. Servitor Attunement: Gargoyle The servitor attunement Gargoyle grants a number of small abilities, rather than a single large one. 1) Angels with the Gargoyle attunement may choose to leave their stone vessels on the Corporeal plane when they manfest other vessels or take Celestial form. This results in a statue that looks exactly like the vessel. The Angel will know if the vessel is moved or damaged. 2) Angels with the Gargoyle attunement may "leave" one force in a stone vessel and continue to see through its eyes, even after they manifest another vessel or take Celestial form. To take Celestial form, the angel must have at least three free forces, and to manifest another vessel, the angel must have at least the number of forces that type of vessel would normally have--for example, five for a human, and two for a cat. Kyriotates may leave one force in as many vessels as they have forces if they want many viewpoints and no action. 3) Angels with the Gargoyle Attunement may use the Song of Possession on statues. The statue functions as a stone vessel for the duration of the Song. It is dissonant to not have returned the statue to its original resting place by the time the Song ends; this note is removed when the statue is finally returned to its proper place, as long as that is within twenty four hours. After twenty four hours, the note is permanent. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 13:11:25 -0800 From: "Steven Feldon (Exchange)" Subject: IN> Dameron, the Demon Prince of Slavery Dameron Demon Prince of Slavery By Steve Feldon , from discussions with Elizabeth McCoy, about Superiors who might have been diminished without being destroyed. . . . Incorporating several useful suggestions from Lonnie Foster. "The world is in need of a master. Give it one." The Word of Slavery When one human hurts another, you have cruelty. When one human forces another to do something, you have coercion. But when one human systematically destroys options and breaks the soul of another, you have slavery. You have Dameron. As with most evils, the humans did it to each other first, and then the demons stepped in to make sure they couldn't stop. Once Dameron got his word, there were entire countries running on slave labor within a century. Tribes becames slaves to other tribes, and eventually lost their identity. There was no place where slavery wasn't; there was no voice calling to end it but Lilith's. And one day it changed. Vapula and Dameron's grandest plan, the Industrial Revolution, started as a way to make more people into virtual slaves to poverty and danger, but eventually, something went wrong. The work got easier, and social changes made it less dangerous to work in a factory. People began . . . living. Not in fear. Without terror. The humans were unbroken. And the economies that rode this wave were strong enough that they threw off Dameron's shackles. Dameron, an Impudite, is a shadow of his former self. Just three hundred years ago, he held a Word which was powerful worldwide. Now, only tiny pockets of influence remain. Thailand. Togo. Scattered sweatshops and houses of prostituation. Even South Africa has reformed, and Slavery's Demons no longer call it home. The change hasn't been easy for Dameron. He never worked particularly closely with any of the other Princes, but at least he was respected in Hell, for in Hell every soul is a slave to something or someone. Now, he's a laughing stock. Lilith is actively attempting to have Lucifer demote Dameron to a mere Demon, and several of his primary Servitors, including Alnax, the Demon of Sexual Slavery, and Loqis, the Demon of Conscription, have defected to the service of Andrealphus and Baal. Even his most trusted lieutenant, Yuw, the Demon of Mastery Over Others, has separated himself from Dameron and is trying to widen his Word so that Dameron's fall won't affect him any more than it has to. Dameron is in the embarrassing position of not being able to punish Yuw, for several reasons: Dameron can't afford the loss of support of the Word of Slavery that Yuw _does_ provide, and, frankly, Yuw may very well be more powerful than Dameron is, if not now, then in the future. Dameron is hard-pressed simply to keep this fact a secret. Dissonance: It is dissonant for the followers of Dameron to encourage slaves to disobey or masters to cease owning slaves. It is also dissonant for them to abuse slaves themselves, or to take no action to prevent slaves from being abused, although they regularly take _very_little_ action against this behavior. It is also dissonant for them to allow slaves to run away or disobey without being punished, although that recapture or punishment does not need to come at their hands. Band Attunements: Balseraphs Slavery's Balseraphs get a bonus of their Celestial forces to any roll to convince people that slavery is correct or just, that they should start or continue owning slaves, or that it's okay to use products produced by slaves or to use a slave for physical pleasure. They also gain this bonus when trying to convince people that the slaves shouldn't be harmed. Djinn If a slave has run away, these Stalkers may attune to them with as little as a description or a picture; no touch is needed. Furthermore, they don't need physical contact to renew this attunement. However, it's unwise for them to use this ability carelessly, as since Dameron's viewpoint is that the slave is doing themselves harm by running away, the Djinn receives a note of dissonance as soon as they stop actively tracking the runaway. This note is removed when the Djinn begins tracking again, and is removed nonetheless when the Djinn knows that the slave has been returned to captivity. Calabim The Calabim of Slavery, instead of breaking something physical, can destroy the wills of those they use their resonance on. With a successful resonance roll, they lower the will of a slave by one point. This loss is permanent until the slave does something to indicate rebellion against the master, at which point half of the points are returned, rounded up. The remaining points are returned when the slave performs a second rebellious act. Habbalah Slavery's Habbalah can use their resonance, adding their Corporeal Forces, to make their victims, uniformly slaves, feel Punished as if whipped. This feeling lasts a number of hours equal to the check digit of the roll plus the Ethereal forces of the Habbalite. This functions exactly as Sadness, except that the Punished slave will still follow orders rather than remaining idle; indeed, suffers a penalty equal to the check digit on any Will rolls to not follow orders immediately. Lilim Slavery has no Lilim. He occasionally is able to get one for a single operation or mission via trading geasa with others, but Lilith will not trade geasa with him, and will not create Lilim for him. The one Lilim that came into his service after being Renegade was destroyed by the Game at Lilith's request. Even when she was one of his Servitors, he was unable to alter Lilith's creation enough to give her any attunements or rites at all. Shedim Shedim of Slavery may possess slaves or masters without a roll and without needing to corrupt their host. They can stay in their host as long as the slave-master relationship remains undisturbed--no successful acts of disobedience on the part of a slave if possessing a master, or no behavior that would have caused the host to attempt an act of disobedience if possessing a slave. Impudites Dameron's Impudites get a bonus of their Ethereal forces to the target number of a resonance roll against slaves or masters. They always get a check digit of 6 when stealing Essence from slaves. Pachadites Unlike most other Superiors, Beleth has loaned Dameron enough Pachadites that he has developed a special Band Attunement for them. Frighteners of Slavery add their Celestial forces to the Will of all fears they cause in slaves, and are also given a vessel/2 of whatever type is needed to walk undetected among the slaves where Dameron has placed them. Servitor Attunements: Chains of the Body With this attunement, one of Dameron's Servitors can bind a single human who is with a number of yards equal to the Demon's total Forces. The human will be able to move at a slow walk or not move at all, at the will of the Demon. There is no visible effect, and the Demon may do this to as many humans as he wishes, one at a time. The effect continues as long as the Demon can see the bound human. Chains of the Mind With this attunement, a Demon of Slavery can impose a prohibition into the mind of a slave by simply speaking it out loud, and it will be obeyed. The command must be simple: "Don't run away", "Don't cross this line", or "Don't attack your master". There is no visible effect, and the Demon may do this to as many humans as he wishes, one at a time. The effect continues for the Demon's total forces in minutes, or hours if the target is currently under the effect of any of Dameron's attunements or resonances. Distinctions: Knight of the Chain When promoted to Knight, Dameron's Demons gain the ability to detect masters and slaves by sight, and detect who is owned/controlled by whom. Captain of the Whip Dameron's Captains can remind a slave of any punishment the Demon has witnessed the slave enduring with a glance. This will inflict, for a single round, the maximum amount of pain or distress that was suffered during the punishment. Baron of the Broken Soul The Barons of the Broken Soul can spend Essence to keep a slave from rebelling. For each Essence spent, the slave's Will is reduced by 1 for purposes of disobeying or rebelling. This normally lasts for a number of days equal to the base Essence spent, but if the slave is currently under the effects of _any_ of Dameron's Servitor's resonances or attunements, the duration is in _weeks_, instead. Relations: Allied: Beleth, Kronos. Associated: Vapula, Andrealphus, Asmodeus. Neutral: Baal, Valefor, Haagenti, Kobal. Hostile: Belial, Malphas, Nybbas. Enemy: Lilith, Saminga. Beleth appreciates how the nightmare of slavery resonates within souls and societies; Kronos simply likes how it prevents so many individuals from knowing that their destiny is even available. Vapula appreciates that his beloved Industrial Revolution was borne on the backs of slaves and those working nearly as slaves. Andrealphus only recently began to appreciate Dameron, as sexual slavery became more prominent. Asmodeus simply likes his control over people and Demons. Belial and Malphas dislike anything that keeps a social structure in stagnation. Nybbas dislikes the effect shows about slavery have on his viewers' desire to Watch More(tm). Saminga simply hates that Dameron is actually careful with his humans, caring more about the fact that they're enslaved then that they're _alive_. And Lilith holds a burning hot hatred for Dameron, as he is the institutionalization of everything she stands against. Dameron's opinions of his fellow Princes basically depend on who isn't attacking or who he has recently received help from. He tries to put up a bold face, but he knows his Word isn't worthy of a Prince any longer, and some day, Lilith will free him from this misery. He hates her--that's the only constant. Even Saminga he sometimes looks to for support, although he never gets it. Basic Rites: - - Rest in a dwelling/building with slaves for four hours while no acts of disobedience occur. - - Convince someone to use a product made by slaves or be served by slaves. - - All of Dameron's servants generate an additional point of Essence every day they are in a country (geopolitical unit) where slavery is legal. - - Enslave a free human. (3 essence, but only once per day no matter how many humans are enslaved.) Invocation: Basic Chance:1 Modifiers- +1 An anklechain +2 A bound human being broken for slavery +3 A slave +4 A dwelling where slaves are kept +5 A person born into slavery +6 The owner of business that couldn't run without slave labor ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 21:18:09 +0000 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: IN> Re: Sharon At 17:12 23/03/98 +0000, you wrote: >> > > No, 'cos then I'm usually on my way to an inebriated state... >> > > >What's so good about being inebriated? It inhibits your capacity for >rational argument. It weakens your perceptions, so that other people will >be more easily able to take advantage of you, and it costs money which >might be better spent on roleplaying games. > There you go answering your own questions again ;-) >> > >> > You're Swedish, aren't you? ;-) ;-) >> >> Gee, how'd you guess? >> >I miss the connection. Is there something specifically Swedish about >drinking on Friday? > It just means that I have too many Danish friends. (They have a steroetype of Swedes as heavy drinkers.) > Weekends are bad. Maybe you should work harder! jo - ---------- "I like getting into hot water, it keeps me clean." G. K. Chesterton jhart@btinternet.com -- http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~jhart/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 14:08:43 -0800 From: Dale Friesen Subject: Re: IN> Ramped advancement? On Sun, 22 Mar 1998 22:46:34 PST David Streeter said: >Here's a tricky one: > >In Game, it makes sense that you can learn new skills from your >companions. For example, learning the Detect Lies skill from someone >else in your party. > >Out of Game (OOG), however, it's probably better to have only a minor >overlapping of skills - so that each character is "special". > >How do you resolve it? > >I guess ideally each ability would be known by two people in the party >(in case one doesn't show up for a session, or is knocked unconscious, >etc). The GM could simply tell the third player wanting a particular >ability that it would be more interesting to pick something else, I >guess. FWIW, here's my solution. Each player has at least two characters, and can make as many more as they like. Before each separate story, I (as GM) choose which characters will be participating. This solves the problem of more than one player wanting to play an obscure character type (eg a Bright Lilim of Destiny) by letting each of them playing one occasionally. It also gives you flexibility in what character types are around (I don't want to run any Malakim in "The Demon Prince of Rock & Roll" for example). Finally, it makes more sense for different characters to be assigned to different missions, instead of always having the same party go from place to place regardless of who would logically be there. YMMV, of course. Any opinions expressed are mine and not necessarily the book store's. Dale Friesen Sysadmin Bolen Books, Inc Victoria, BC Canada dfriesen@amtsgi.bc.ca http://www.bolen.bc.ca ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 14:08:37 -0800 From: Dale Friesen Subject: Re: IN> Ramped advancement? On Mon, Mar 23, 1998 Kevin Walsh wrote: >On Mon, Mar 23, 1998 at 10:29:29AM -0800, Dale Friesen wrote: >> >1-2 is the standard, surely. And of course they'd have to convince you why >> >their Superior would spend so much effort doing a mind dump that big, and >> >how it is that they managed not to learn anything about detectling lies, >> >or driving, or whatever. If they insist on putting all their xp into >> >something unrelated to what they actually did during the session, ask them >> >if they really think they learned nothing during the session. >> > > >> What this means, imho, is that character points are significantly >> different from experience points, and thus can certainly be spend on >> skills they haven't used, or anything else the GM cares to permit. > >Given that experience points aren't named in the rulebook, but there are >things called character points there which fit the general purpose of what >other games call experience points, I see no reason not to treat them as >the same thing. The purchase of new Songs and attunements is rationalised >by saying it was the stuff you had to do to please your Superior, not the >Symphony. But if you're purchasing them with character points then those points couldn't have been experience points in the sense I think you mean (I could, of course, be misunderstanding things). Unless character points are only used to improve skills exercised in the course of the session, they're not actually representing experience, but some other form of potential. I think that the reason that they're not called experience points is that they're quite a different concept. >> Of course characters learn about driving by driving a lot, but not >> necessarily enough to increment their skill level. If the worst trained >> driver is skill level one and a pro is skill level six there's an awful >> lot of room for improvement without actually changing the number. > >There's an awful lot of room for improvement by changing the number. Such >as moving it to level 2 from level 1. Anyway, the worst trained driver is >the one who can't drive at all. I accept the correction of my game mechanics. I'm not sure this affects the point I was making, namely that in IN a single skill point is a fairly big Compare, for example, GURPS, where an *average* person with no training at all has a skill of five and with a little work can get it to nine or ten. In other words, numerically each point in IN is much more significant, and not as likely (imho) to improve due to routine use. >> Character >> points thus are the wrong way to represent learning through doing, which >> (again, just imho) should be represented by GM rewards at the end of a >> campaign. >> >You're confusing me now. In what way are character points different from >GM rewards? And how do you propose to reward learning by doing, then? Sorry, I wasn't very clear. Character points are one type of GM reward, and skill improvements are another. "Good adventure. You get two experience points, your driving skill goes up by one after all its protracted use, and your Superior would like to talk to you." Any opinions expressed are mine and not necessarily the book store's. Dale Friesen Sysadmin Bolen Books, Inc Victoria, BC Canada dfriesen@amtsgi.bc.ca http://www.bolen.bc.ca ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #691 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.