From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Mar 30 12:37:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA03534 for ; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 12:37:23 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id MAA15721 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 12:30:23 -0600 Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 12:30:23 -0600 Message-Id: <199803301830.MAA15721@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #700 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, March 30 1998 Volume 01 : Number 700 In this digest: IN> Colandria (a story and writeup) Re: IN> Colandria (a story and writeup) IN> In Nomine PBEM: Fade to Gray: Web Page IN> Variant Undead - Wight Re: IN> Ethereals as PCs? IN> Songs and other actions Re: IN> Word-Bound Outcasts Re: IN> Variant Undead - Wight Re: IN> Songs and other actions IN> Source Book Reviews Re: IN> Source Book Reviews Re: IN> Source Book Reviews Re: IN> Source Book Reviews Re: IN> Source Book Reviews Re: IN> Source Book Reviews Re: IN> Variant Undead - Wight Re: IN> Source Book Reviews Re: IN> Source Book Reviews ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 20:17:25 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Colandria (a story and writeup) Well, I am pleased to see my little non-canon work has inspired such a detailed character. I'd like to make one observation, though: >>> " We continued to move around the Earth, even travelling to the western continents. There had been life there for several centuries, but it was not until it was "discovered" by the English that Bethanel decided it was worthy of his attention." <<< Actually, the only continents where there were no cities before the Europeans arrived are Australia (I don't think any Aboriginal settlements would have qualified as cities), and of course Antarctica, which still has no cities (unless you're using the Cthulhu mythos in your campaign ;)). North and South America and Africa (including sub-Saharan Africa), however, had some quite sizeable (by pre-industrial standards) cities long before Europeans ever set foot there. I'm sure Bethanel would have taken great interest in Axum, Great Zimbabwe, Cahioka, Yautepec, Machu Picchu, etc. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 20:58:26 -0500 (EST) From: Pee Kitty Subject: Re: IN> Colandria (a story and writeup) On Sun, 29 Mar 1998, David Edelstein wrote: > Well, I am pleased to see my little non-canon work has inspired such a > detailed character. I'd like to make one observation, though: > > >>> > " We continued to move around the Earth, even travelling to the > western continents. There had been life there for several centuries, but it > was not until it was "discovered" by the English that Bethanel decided it > was worthy of his attention." > <<< > > Actually, the only continents where there were no cities before the > Europeans arrived are Australia (I don't think any Aboriginal settlements > would have qualified as cities), and of course Antarctica, which still has > no cities (unless you're using the Cthulhu mythos in your campaign ;)). > North and South America and Africa (including sub-Saharan Africa), however, > had some quite sizeable (by pre-industrial standards) cities long before > Europeans ever set foot there. I'm sure Bethanel would have taken great > interest in Axum, Great Zimbabwe, Cahioka, Yautepec, Machu Picchu, etc. Hmm. Okay, my bad. I'm going to leave it be and chalk it up to a simple mistake on Colandria's part. She wasn't assigned anywhere near the Western Hemisphere until (coincidentally) just after it was "discovered", so she assumed what she said about Bethanel. HER bad. :) Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! And finally, a special message to \|/ ____ \|/ anyone who thinks I give a damn... ~@-/ oO \-@~ /_( \__/ )_\ \__U_/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 02:59:12 -0600 From: ehp Subject: IN> In Nomine PBEM: Fade to Gray: Web Page Hello all. This is a shamefull plug for the In Nomine Pbem game I am currently running, called "Fade to Grey". After several months of procrastination I have finally set up a web page for the game, and it is about as done as I can manage for now. No spiffy graphics, just text, including the entire back story, so hopefully an interresting set of pages none the less. Comments, links et al, welcomed. If you would like to become a lurker for the game, just email me, and I will take care of it. (actually rez, one of my players, will take care of it, but there you go...) http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/7677/f-index.htm All the best, Evan ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 20:53:00 From: Peter Frederick Subject: IN> Variant Undead - Wight Dear List Just something that came to me, hope someone gets some use out of it. Created by a ritual similar to that which creates Mummies, the Wight was once a popular type of Undead. In many ways the Wight is similar to the Mummy, but with an additional "advantage". Once the Mortal’s Forces are bound into his Corporeal Form as a Wight he will not die unless his corpus is substantially destroyed. Instead he will enter a deathlike coma for days equal to his total Forces. After that time he will rise with all his body hits restored. As long as the 80% or more of the Wight’s body survives their death in close proximity, or scattered parts are recovered and placed together, he will revivify. Some Servitors of Saminga know rituals which can revivify a Wight faster than “natural”. On the down side the Wight retains permanently the outward appearance of all the fatal wounds he has suffered and randomly loses a point off a characteristic each time he revivifies. Some poorly made Wights lose a whole Force every time they revivify. When any of the Wight’s characteristics reach zero he will die the final death and his soul go to it’s appropriate place. Thanking you for your indulgence. Regards, Peter. Reply to peterf@wr.com.au May the Goddess shelter you in the palm of her hand until we meet again. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 12:29:41 +0100 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals as PCs? On Fri, Mar 27, 1998 at 04:21:45PM -0500, Andrew Frades wrote: > Soviet wrote: > > > > This came up in my gaming group....is there any official/unofficial > > ruling for this? > > Any number of options. I would tend to give them 9 forces just like > angels/demons and let the player go to town. From the evidence of the Marches, 7 Force Ethereals seem to be a fair bit more powerful than the average run of Ethereal spirits. The Valkyries, for instance, are 7 Force. So they're below the Gods/Faerie Monarchs, but not by all that much. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "He was wont moreover to complain openly of the condition of the times wherein he lived, as not being renowned by any public calamities...And, at times, he wished for some terrible carnage of his armies, a famine, a pestilence, conflagrations, or an earthquake." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 08:41:30 EST From: SienarFLT Subject: IN> Songs and other actions A question came up in last night's session concerning the performance of songs that had not come up before (the players are trying to settle in to their character's advancements and such). I thought I'd post the question to the list as well as my ruling to see what you think. Q: A song at level 5 or 6 can be performed by sheer force of will, with no vocal or hand gestures needed. The effects for the most part are instantaneous. But can a character perform a level 6 song and do other actions in the same round? My ruling: The performance of the song becomes a little easier, but still takes the same duration. Simple actions like walking, or even running could be done at the same time, but not complicated things like electronics repair, actions that would take some degree of attention. And even if running and performing at the same time, for a moment at least, the character would not be paying attention to where he was going as he concentrated on the song. Comments? -- Thom Dawson (reply to SienarFLT@aol.com) "Men rarely (if ever) manage to dream up a god Superior to themselves. Most gods have the Manners and morals of a spoiled child." -- Lazarus Long. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 09:25:32 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Word-Bound Outcasts Jon Zeigler wrote: > Well, in mythology there *was* a faction of angels which sided with > neither God nor Lucifer at the Fall. Dante placed these outside > the gates of Hell, rejected by both sides. One medieval theory on the nature of fays was that they were these "neutrals" from the Rebellion. That could be easily folded into IN by having some of these celestials living in exile in the Far Marches, as far from the War as they can get. They might even be powers among the fay courts. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 09:33:15 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Variant Undead - Wight Peter Frederick wrote: > When any of the Wight’s characteristics reach zero he will die the > final death and his soul go to it’s appropriate place. If the wight's soul goes anywhere instead of crumbling away with the body, it has an "advantage" over the other undead (if going to Hell instead of being extinguished is your idea of an advantage; a difference, anyway). Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 09:36:56 -0500 From: "Thomas Davidson" Subject: Re: IN> Songs and other actions - ---------- > From: SienarFLT > To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > Subject: IN> Songs and other actions > Date: Monday, March 30, 1998 8:41 AM > > A question came up in last night's session concerning the performance of songs > that had not come up before (the players are trying to settle in to their > character's advancements and such). I thought I'd post the question to the > list as well as my ruling to see what you think. > > Q: A song at level 5 or 6 can be performed by sheer force of will, with no > vocal or hand gestures needed. The effects for the most part are > instantaneous. But can a character perform a level 6 song and do other > actions in the same round? > > My ruling: The performance of the song becomes a little easier, but still > takes the same duration. Simple actions like walking, or even running could > be done at the same time, but not complicated things like electronics repair, > actions that would take some degree of attention. And even if running and > performing at the same time, for a moment at least, the character would not be > paying attention to where he was going as he concentrated on the song. > > Comments? > I'm not very picky when it comes to rules, so I always allow my players one movement, and two of the following: a supernatural action, an offensive action, or a defensive action every round. This is the way *I* interpret the rules, and I find that it works for what it's worth. I did this because of my frustration with Champions' action system -- not having enough Actions to dodge that fatal bullet wasn't what I wanted to replicate with IN. But what I find is that players have a tendency to hoard their actions -- if they take a supernatural action, they won't take an offensive action so that they will have that defensive action. I haven't yet encountered a Song with a skill higher than 4, so I haven't had to think about how that would affect this. But your answer is just as good. :) NOTE: some special abilities (such as the Ofanite Resonance) allow for more actions per round, but I haven't been able to decide how that would work, yet. > -- Thom Dawson (reply to SienarFLT@aol.com) > > "Men rarely (if ever) manage to dream up a god > Superior to themselves. Most gods have the > Manners and morals of a spoiled child." -- Lazarus Long. > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 10:05:35 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: IN> Source Book Reviews Warning: This is all just _my opinion_. Take it or leave it. On Saturday, I finally hauled myself to the hobby store, and after several months, I dropped a nice slick $75 on sourcebooks. Some of that actually went to filling out my IN collection, so I didn't have to steal from my players anymore. Oddly, I now own more IN sourcebooks then Shadowrun books, a game I played for over four years straight, but then again that isn't saying much. The best two sourcebooks to compare (and seriously contrast) are the APG and the Liber Reliquarium. ANGELIC PLAYERS GUIDE When I skimmed through the book the first time and picked out a half a dozen typos, I knew there was going to be a problem. By the time I had read it all the way through, I was ready to donate a copy of _Elements of Style_ to Steve Jackson Games. Technically, the book needs work, and reads like a second draft. The book is rife with spelling mistakes and typos (date for data, for example). The writing style needs a generous application of a red marker. I found myself trying to edit the book while I read through it. The worst section was the section on FALLING, since the author apparently thinks use of the ellipses is cool and interesting, and consistently used it in place of a comma. Worse, it was apparently the same person who did some of the choir descriptions, because it was there was well. Bad author, no donut. Poor plurals, sentances without subjects, dangling modifiers. The style was seriously worse then any of the other sourcebooks to date, and I have to wonder if there was a rush to get out to press. The material wasn't all that wonderful either. The choir descriptions were nice, but the expanded resonances are game breakers, especially Mercurians and Kyriotates. Why are you making Mercurians into Lilim? Why are you making Kyriotates into overpowered Shedim? Isn't it good enough that the Choirs and Bands have distinctive styles? And why do only half of the Choirs have expanded resonances, and the other half have helpful, and marginally useful, hints on application of the standard package? Did someone just get bored half way through? It not only feels unfinished, but it feels unbalanced. There are a few Discords that have a disclaimer on them, "Can be abused". I have to wonder, if the Discord can obviously be abused and this was discovered during playtest, why are you including it? Why didn't it just end up on the cutting room floor? The worst part of the book is that the end of the 'Degeneration of the Malakim' section is a flat out advertisement for Fall of the Malakim. Look, we know you want our money, but you can at least be marginally subtle. It's not only insulting, but it keeps the book from standing alone outside the Revelations Cycle. The entire last paragraph needs to be rewritten. I found the History section to be personally lackluster. One of my Jewish friends went on a rant about how it made the game so Euro-Christian centric that she almost didn't want anything to do with the game anymore. (The conversation about IN and how Protestant Eurocentric it is was the matter of a 3 hour argument on Saturday, so it isn't without some merit. It came down to, "They have Christianity, Catholicism in particular, they have some modern Islam, but where are we, the Jews?" My answer was: "The angels hate you. You get to go on another diaspora. Suck.") As a saving grace, the 'what it means to be an Angel' was passingly interesting, and some of the 'working with your Superior' might actually be useful. The book layout was okay, it probably could have been arranged a little better, since some of the material is split up and scattered around a bit. In the end, I ended up just vetoing the entire book and sticking it on my shelf for completeness. I chalked this up to a 'learning experience', and figured with this little bit of experience, the IPG will be better. I was a little bugged, because some people from an alternate Ann Arbor gaming group had gotten their hands on the APG, and were disappointed enough to skip some IN sourcebooks for a while. Overall Grade: D+ LIBER RELIQUARIUM This is almost exactly what I want out of a sourcebook. It is what the APG and the REVELATIONS CYCLE are NOT - extremely useful to the GM. The text is concise, the layout facilitates quick flip-throughs and finding objects, the descriptions are complete, useful, and informative, there are almost no quickly noticable technical errors. And the best part is that plenty of time and space are dedicated to the _subject_ of the book, the objects, instead of spending 1/3rd of the book on the main topic and then spending the other 2/3rds on other information which is occasionally more then superfluous (the problem of HEAVEN AND HELL, in specific.) I especially appreciated how the artifacts were presented, with which category they fall into, how much they cost, how much they are to activate. I found this useful, and informative. There are only three bugs with the book, and one is minor. The first bug is the SONG OF SYMPHONY, which is a campaign breaker. In no way should there be a song, spell, artifact, or anything which allows the PC, on a check digit of 6 or through the use of some essence, to get the GM to cough up their entire plot and ruin the game for not only the players but for the GM as well. Also, among all the songs which were geared entirely toward artifact creation, this song seemed extremely out of place. Ick, horrible, not-in-my-game. The second bug is more of a rant toward the plot seeds in the back of the book. I couldn't understand why they were there in the first place, being very obviously tacked on to the end as an afterthought. The second seed shouldn't have even been included, and the first seed, which has promise, was hampered by the lack of space - which it wouldn't have had if the second seed wasn't there. One note - IMO, the game is about Angels and Demons. I know people have their pet Greek Gods, and lots of people watch XENA: WARRIOR PRINCESS, but if the game was about Ethereals it wouldn't be called IN NOMINE. Between the one about Nybbas and the one about a bunch of Muses, I would take the seed about Nybbas every time. It's simply more pertinant to the game. My last one is a quibble about an artifact or two. The Maat Feather was my favorite, simply because, from an Egyptology standpoint, it was so truly bad. It's like the whole Bodhisattva fiasco. One of the writers comes across, on the web, in some 'beginning intro to...' reference, or on TV, some concept. The name of it sounds really cool, so cool it should be included somewhere in the text. And unfortunately it gets published and eventually noticed by someone who _does_ know. Those three are actually fairly minor in the scope of the entire book, so from me, as a GM, buying the Liber Reliquarium comes well recommended. Good content, good layout, useful material, only a few flaws. Overall Grade: A- **** A few notes - At the same time I bought some CoC stuff. For the price of a few extra pages, Chaosium is able to add some badly needed content - backgrounds on occultists, drugs used in asylums, some extra roleplaying notes for certain insanities, that sort of thing. Not only does this make for and excellent supplement, but it has the grace of being used for _other games_. Some of their stuff does fall on its face, but in general, it's very good, and the fact that I buy their books to use for In Nomine instead of In Nomine supplements is saying something. In general, one thing I learn from my spending habits is that it is better to spend a little more time in a book on some useful interesting details then it is to throw in another few weeniemaker toys, an adventure, or NPCs. What the previous sourcebooks sorely lack (and the LR has, for the most part) is detail, because the space is all frittered away on other stuff. A most excellent thing to happen is for someone to pick up a sourcebook for another game and then suddenly decide it's cool enough to buy _all_ the books from that game. Like I do with KULT, CoC, and a few other horror systems. On the other hand, I own no White Wolf supplements. Not a one. They're no good for my writing, or for other games. They have no material that is really relevant to anything else outside of their own little universe. Hmm. Something to ponder. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 16:52:13 +0100 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: Re: IN> Source Book Reviews - ---Emily Dresner wrote: 2 things that I hope to see in the IPG (she says, now that the thing has gone to the printers and it is too late to modify them). 1) An errata for the Impudite resonance. As it stands, the poor things have almost no chance to charm anyone. I'm ruling for my NPCs that they can charm someone on a normal resonance roll (ie. will) if the charmee fails a will roll to resist. They can take the eth+cel negative modifier on attempts to steal essence. I think this should be more official though as I am certain I am not the only person to have noticed! 2) A note in amongst the 'suggested names' which will tell people whether the names are generally considered to be feminine or masculine. For most of them, it'll be neither as they aren't really mortal names but for Biblical or Hebrew names, often they are. I don't think it applied to very many in the APG so it won't be that much work! jo ps. I adore CoC sourcebooks also. I also highly recommend Ars Magica books - -- the ones they have been putting out lately (esp the one on Hedge Magi) is just aching to be plumbed for IN ideas. pps. I think its quite amusing that they don't use much Jewish stuff, because it means I can freely plumb Jewish folklore and mythology and make my players think I am astoundingly creative and came up with it all on my own ;) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 17:22:15 +0100 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Source Book Reviews On Mon, Mar 30, 1998 at 10:05:35AM -0500, Emily Dresner wrote: > > Warning: This is all just _my opinion_. Take it or leave it. > I'm incapable of taking things or leaving them. I'm just offering my opinion. > The material wasn't all that wonderful either. The choir descriptions > were nice, but the expanded resonances are game breakers, especially > Mercurians and Kyriotates. This may be true of Mercurians, but I actually liked the Kyriotate stuff. I dislike it when demonic resonances bear no relation to what the angelic resonance was like, like the Impudite stealing Essence thing, because I can't understand where the ability came from in the first place, and it makes no sense to me. Also, I don't think it's likely to be a game-breaker, because the expanded part of the Kyriotate resonance is based on Perception, at a penalty. Given that Kyriotates, even with high Celestial Forces, don't tend to have wonderful Perception, I don't see it as too much of a problem. So on the one hand, I don't think it makes them too powerful, and on the other it explains stuff about how Shedim came into existence. And I like the expanded dissonance stuff for them, too. >Why are you making Mercurians into Lilim? Weren't they somewhat like Lilim already? And why do only half > of the Choirs have expanded resonances, and the other half have helpful, > and marginally useful, hints on application of the standard package? Did > someone just get bored half way through? It not only feels unfinished, > but it feels unbalanced. > I think that the thinking was that the Seraphic and Malakite resonances were powerful enough already. That's just a guess, of course, but I've noticed that Malakim can detect demons very easily. > > LIBER RELIQUARIUM > > This is almost exactly what I want out of a sourcebook. I was pleasantly surprised by it, given that I'm opposed to books of artefacts in principle. (No, I'm not the one who bought it.) I thought it was well put together, though I haven't read it all. > The second bug is more of a rant toward the plot seeds in the back of the > book. I couldn't understand why they were there in the first place, being > very obviously tacked on to the end as an afterthought. I disliked that in "The Marches" as well. Why was Blood & Circuses included at all? If it was deemed necessary to have a plot seed, why couldn't it have been more Marches specific? And wouldn't it have been better if the extra pages were dedicated to more stuff about the tactics of Servitors of Blandine and Beleth, and if that which was there was better organised? Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "He was wont moreover to complain openly of the condition of the times wherein he lived, as not being renowned by any public calamities...And, at times, he wished for some terrible carnage of his armies, a famine, a pestilence, conflagrations, or an earthquake." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 11:24:12 -0500 (EST) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> Source Book Reviews On Mon, 30 Mar 1998, Hart, Joanna wrote: > pps. I think its quite amusing that they don't use much Jewish stuff, > because it means I can freely plumb Jewish folklore and mythology and make > my players think I am astoundingly creative and came up with it all on my > own ;) I don't suppose you'd mind putting some of this into writing, so that those of us who haven't had the upbringing can use it? - -- Casca, Seraph of Archives (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 11:51:00 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Source Book Reviews > This may be true of Mercurians, but I actually liked the Kyriotate stuff. > I dislike it when demonic resonances bear no relation to what the angelic > resonance was like, like the Impudite stealing Essence thing, because I > can't understand where the ability came from in the first place, and it > makes no sense to me. Also, I don't think it's likely to be a > game-breaker, because the expanded part of the Kyriotate resonance is > based on Perception, at a penalty. Given that Kyriotates, even with high > Celestial Forces, don't tend to have wonderful Perception, I don't see it > as too much of a problem. It's not so much an issue of symmetry, as two other completely distinct problems: 1) It makes Kyrios of Yves obsolete and pointless. 2) I find an invasion of the mind, even if it's non-intrusive, to be counter to the entire Angelic mindset. Shedim are so horrible _because_ they can invade the hosts minds and take their memories and skills. Granted in one case the host remembers and in the other the host does not, but it strikes me as a greedy misuse of the host on the part of the Kyriotate. It's not "I can break into the computer because I'm a Kyriotate of Jean" its "I can break into the computer because I possessed a hacker". It seems to me a break in the philosophy behind angels in the first place. Not only that, but this is a big hole in the mechanics. Instead of the Kyrio using their own skills, they'll just go body hopping to find the 'best person at this skill', and after using them they'll leave him like a used tampon - and the person won't be any WORSE for it, so there will be no dissonance. Mechanics-wise, it's probably passible for a weenie PC. Philosophy-wise, it's not so kosher. > >Why are you making Mercurians into Lilim? > > Weren't they somewhat like Lilim already? No. Absolutely not. Play a Lilim and Play a Mercurian and come back and give me a report. A Lilim resonates for Needs and Desires. A Mercurian resonates for Politics. One is single person centric, the other is centered on a group of people as a whole. A Lilim will fill a short term Need for one person which may or may not be destructive and require a favor in return, a Mercurian will work with an ailing grandparent in which to ultimately help the family as a whole, and require no thanks. Resonating for Desires and Trust is just asking to be abused. The Mercurian should not have his resonance do all his role-playing help for him. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 12:14:55 EST From: SienarFLT Subject: Re: IN> Source Book Reviews In a message dated 98-03-30 11:35:45 EST, you write: [big snip] > I dislike it when demonic resonances bear no relation to what the angelic > resonance was like, like the Impudite stealing Essence thing, because I > can't understand where the ability came from in the first place, and it > makes no sense to me. Sometimes an ability is just so cool that it has to be included. These things don't have to make sense. The resonances don't necessarily *have* to be reflections of their angelic/diabolical counterpart. An impudite's resonance fits the profile so well that frankly I can't imagine an Impudite NOT being able to steal essence. }:-) -- Thom Dawson (reply to SienarFLT@aol.com) Impudite of Peanut Butter in service to Haagenti, or ... Mercurian of Lost Endings in service to Yves ... I just haven't made up my mind yet! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 12:39:57 -0500 (EST) From: Pee Kitty Subject: Re: IN> Variant Undead - Wight On Mon, 30 Mar 1998, Peter Frederick wrote: Nice Mummy variant. Not too powerful, but a definite advantage over the Mummies (from Saminga's point of view, at least). I'd wonder why he didn't make more of these...the loss of a characteristic and permanent wounds aren't such a big deal when you consider that a Mummy would've been dead (totally dead) by that point. > whole Force every time they revivify. When any of the Wight’s > characteristics reach zero he will die the final death and his soul go to > it?s appropriate place. I should point out that Undead souls do NOT go anywhere when they die. The soul is destroyed. That's what really sucks about being undead... Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! And finally, a special message to \|/ ____ \|/ anyone who thinks I give a damn... ~@-/ oO \-@~ /_( \__/ )_\ \__U_/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 18:43:35 +0100 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: IN> Source Book Reviews At 11:51 30/03/98 -0500, you wrote: > >Resonating for Desires and Trust is just asking to be abused. The >Mercurian should not have his resonance do all his role-playing help for >him. > Actually I don't mind it. They are supposed to be 'friends of man' so it doesn't seem so bad that they can figure out what they might have to do to get some mortal to be their friend, on a more difficult resonance roll. jo - ---------- "I like getting into hot water, it keeps me clean." G. K. Chesterton jhart@btinternet.com -- http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~jhart/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 13:18:43 -0500 (EST) From: Pee Kitty Subject: Re: IN> Source Book Reviews On Mon, 30 Mar 1998, Emily Dresner wrote: > ANGELIC PLAYERS GUIDE > This kind of stuff doesn't bug me that much; I just mentally errata it as I read. Nothing in the APG got on my nerves to anywhere NEAR the degree that Night Music did...letting someone spend two full sections of the book referring to 'disturbance' as 'dissonance'?? That drove me CRAZY and I can NOT see how it got missed. The APG stuff? Minor typos and a few grammatical errors. No biggee. > The material wasn't all that wonderful either. The choir descriptions > were nice, but the expanded resonances are game breakers, especially > Mercurians and Kyriotates. Why are you making Mercurians into Lilim? Why > are you making Kyriotates into overpowered Shedim? Isn't it good enough > that the Choirs and Bands have distinctive styles? And why do only half > of the Choirs have expanded resonances, and the other half have helpful, > and marginally useful, hints on application of the standard package? Did > someone just get bored half way through? It not only feels unfinished, > but it feels unbalanced. First, let me defend what they did, then let me comment on what I didn't like. Most of the Choirs got expanded resonances; the only ones who got nothing were the Malakim (the Seraphim only got a VERY minor expansion as well). The Ofanim and Elohim only got a small additional ability, while the Cherubim, Kyriotates, and Mercurians got full expansions. This feels okay to me (see below for exceptions). The Malakim and Seraphim already have powerful resonances. The Seraphim are the most powerful in the game, bar none...GM's *hate* them. :) The Malakim come right on their tails; a Malakim can just look at a person and get blackmail material on them effortlessly; on a good roll, they're practically Yves examining the person's life thread! (An exaggeration, but not much of one.) I don't want these two choirs being able to know anything more than what they can already find out. The Ofanim were clarified (well, I might add) WRT what skills can be boosted. They also can add to the check digit (a minor, logical ability) and can do that "warp" thing...it's a fitting ability, IMO, and one that won't overbalance anything (hell, they're still not as fast as a Wheel of Laurence with a good Resonance-boosted Running roll). The ELohim got a very time-consuming and difficult but rather cool ability; it's not easy to do, but when they do it, it's damned useful. Again, it feels balanced to me. The Cherubim got two new tables; the first is fairly intuitive--I'm surprised it wasn't in the main book; the second is pushing their resonance a bit (hence the major penalty), but it only makes sense that it's an ability they would've picked up over time since it is so darned useful (but still not overpowered). The Kyriotates' first ability makes sense...I mean, when you're inhabiting a person, you should be able to figure out SOMETHING about them. The second ability...well, see below. :) And then the Mercurians. My first feeling when reading their choir was, "Man, do these guys have a weak resonance or what?" It can be useful, of course...but it tells you so LITTLE about the person. "Okay, I know his name, who his closest friends are, and his self-esteem," isn't much to go by. I was VERY glad that they expanded 'em. Now they can tell (with some effort) what the person likes; that makes perfect sense. With a lot of effort, they can tell how to get the person to trust them. While pushing it a bit (hence the major penalty), it comes under "applied resonance"...the intuitive way that these angels can figure out how to best approach those people based on what they sense about them. Frankly, the last table would almost (almost!) make sense as the Mercurian's main table...it always seemed to me, from their description and that little opening paragraph, that the whole idea behind the Friends of Man was that they could walk up to anyone and get the person to like them and open up to them. The only thing I did *NOT* like was the second Kyriotate table. Yuck. BAD, BAD, BAD writers!!! BAD! Okay, granted it's at Perception-4 instead of Will-4, and most Kyrios have bad Perception. Doesn't matter! BAD ability. Everything you said about it was right, plus more. I do not allow it, I fight against it, I HATE it. Bad. > There are a few Discords that have a disclaimer on them, "Can be abused". > I have to wonder, if the Discord can obviously be abused and this was > discovered during playtest, why are you including it? Why didn't it just > end up on the cutting room floor? Because they had faith that the people playing were serious about it and not just powerhungrymunchkins? Faith that the GM could handle such sitations, or if she felt otherwise, would have the common sense to disallow it? We don't all need child safety scissors here... > The worst part of the book is that the end of the 'Degeneration of the > Malakim' section is a flat out advertisement for Fall of the Malakim. > Look, we know you want our money, but you can at least be marginally > subtle. It's not only insulting, but it keeps the book from standing > alone outside the Revelations Cycle. The entire last paragraph needs to > be rewritten. No argument here. > I found the History section to be personally lackluster. One of my Jewish > friends went on a rant about how it made the game so Euro-Christian > centric that she almost didn't want anything to do with the game anymore. It IS rather Eurochristian...that can be changed, but it seems to be the direction they're sticking with. > Overall Grade: D+ My overall Grade: B+ > LIBER RELIQUARIUM > > This is almost exactly what I want out of a sourcebook. It is what the > APG and the REVELATIONS CYCLE are NOT - extremely useful to the GM. The > text is concise, the layout facilitates quick flip-throughs and finding > objects, the descriptions are complete, useful, and informative, there are > almost no quickly noticable technical errors. And the best part is that > plenty of time and space are dedicated to the _subject_ of the book, the > objects, instead of spending 1/3rd of the book on the main topic and then > spending the other 2/3rds on other information which is occasionally more > then superfluous (the problem of HEAVEN AND HELL, in specific.) Yeah...I didn't like H&H either. Too little useful info, too much fluff. My main complaint with this book was that it was rather...boring. I loved the expanded artifact design stuff (all the new features, etc.), and I didn't find any artifact that I didn't like...but nothing really jumped out and GRABBED me. Nothing made me go, "Wow! I'm going to make an adventure revolving around THAT!" It was all useful, but not very awe inspiring. > The first bug is the SONG OF SYMPHONY, which is a campaign breaker. In no > way should there be a song, spell, artifact, or anything which allows the > PC, on a check digit of 6 or through the use of some essence, to get the > GM to cough up their entire plot and ruin the game for not only the > players but for the GM as well. Also, among all the songs which were > geared entirely toward artifact creation, this song seemed extremely out > of place. Ick, horrible, not-in-my-game. Fortunately, they make it clear that all the songs in the book are NOT for starting characters, but awards that CAN be gotten during game play. The SoS is one that my players will NEVER see. :) > The second bug is more of a rant toward the plot seeds in the back of the > book. I couldn't understand why they were there in the first place, being > very obviously tacked on to the end as an afterthought. The second seed > shouldn't have even been included, and the first seed, which has promise, > was hampered by the lack of space - which it wouldn't have had if the > second seed wasn't there. I (and everyone else who got the book and has commented on it so far, it seems) agree with this 100%. The NC was an interesting idea, presented first in the main book and perfect for a LR adventure...it had a lot of potential, but was CRIPPLED by the tiny amount of space it got! The collector was a lame idea, poorly conceived, and it got a dozen pages that would've been better put to use for more artifacts and more Nybbas Computer info. > Overall Grade: A- Overall Grade: B- (A for quality, C- for inspiration) Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! And finally, a special message to \|/ ____ \|/ anyone who thinks I give a damn... ~@-/ oO \-@~ /_( \__/ )_\ \__U_/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #700 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.