From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Mar 31 06:59:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA19933 for ; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 06:59:13 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id GAA32524 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 06:13:30 -0600 Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 06:13:30 -0600 Message-Id: <199803311213.GAA32524@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #701 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, March 31 1998 Volume 01 : Number 701 In this digest: Re: IN> Source Book Reviews Re: IN> Source Book Reviews Re: IN> Source Book Reviews Re: IN> Variant Undead - Wight Re: IN> Source Book Reviews Re: IN> Source Book Reviews RE: IN> Ethereals as PCs? IN> Anyone recognize this reference? Re: IN> Anyone recognize this reference? Re: IN> Anyone recognize this reference? IN> History (was Source Book Reviews) Re: IN> Variant Undead - Lich Re: IN> History (was Source Book Reviews) Re: IN> Source Book Reviews Re: IN> History (was Source Book Reviews) IN> Archangel of Grocers? IN> Source Book Reviews Re: IN> History (was Source Book Reviews) Re: IN> Source Book Reviews Re: IN> History IN> Re: A favour ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 19:27:14 +0100 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Source Book Reviews On Mon, Mar 30, 1998 at 11:51:00AM -0500, Emily Dresner wrote: > It's not so much an issue of symmetry, as two other completely distinct > problems: > > 1) It makes Kyrios of Yves obsolete and pointless. > Automatic success on a special use of resonance is pretty powerful. I don't think it makes them pointless. > 2) I find an invasion of the mind, even if it's non-intrusive, to be > counter to the entire Angelic mindset. Malakim do something pretty similar. Though admittedly they aren't possessing someone. Shedim are so horrible _because_ > they can invade the hosts minds and take their memories and skills. > Granted in one case the host remembers and in the other the host does not, > but it strikes me as a greedy misuse of the host on the part of the > Kyriotate. How about "I don't want this guy to miss a date because I'm possessing him, so I'll see if he has a date he should be on time for."? The fact that they can access the memories can be a boon for the host. > > Not only that, but this is a big hole in the mechanics. Instead of the > Kyrio using their own skills, they'll just go body hopping to find the > 'best person at this skill', and after using them they'll leave him like a > used tampon - and the person won't be any WORSE for it, so there will be > no dissonance. > I don't think that that specific issue is a problem, because of the aforementioned mechanics points, but Kyriotates seem to behave in that sort of way in general. I find Kyriotates very scary, but a strict definition of what it's like to be worse off after a possession can offset that. (I would certainly include missing a date as being worse off, by and large.) > > >Why are you making Mercurians into Lilim? > > > > Weren't they somewhat like Lilim already? > > No. Absolutely not. Play a Lilim and Play a Mercurian and come back and > give me a report. A Lilim resonates for Needs and Desires. A Mercurian > resonates for Politics. One is single person centric, the other is > centered on a group of people as a whole. Mercurians can already resonate on a single person. And I wasn't referring to their behaviour, but to their information gains. Learning what sort of relationships people have, and what their hobbies are is already similar to learning their Needs. A Lilim will fill a short term > Need for one person which may or may not be destructive and require a > favor in return, a Mercurian will work with an ailing grandparent in > which to ultimately help the family as a whole, and require no thanks. Absolutely, so long as they're behaving in an appropriately demonic/angelic way. > Resonating for Desires and Trust is just asking to be abused. The > Mercurian should not have his resonance do all his role-playing help for > him. > I can't comment on this, because I haven't seen the special resonance for Mercurians being used. (Obviously I agree to the second statement in principle.) Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "He was wont moreover to complain openly of the condition of the times wherein he lived, as not being renowned by any public calamities...And, at times, he wished for some terrible carnage of his armies, a famine, a pestilence, conflagrations, or an earthquake." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Mar 98 14:08 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Source Book Reviews [Kevin Walsh:] >> The second bug is more of a rant toward the plot seeds in the back of the >> book. I couldn't understand why they were there in the first place, being >> very obviously tacked on to the end as an afterthought. > >I disliked that in "The Marches" as well. Why was Blood & Circuses >included at all? If it was deemed necessary to have a plot seed, why >couldn't it have been more Marches specific? I had the same reaction, myself. Of all the advetures in the first cycle (so far), this is the least relevant and least interesting. I fully expected something set in the Marches, or at least involving Blandine and Beleth in an illustrative way. Instead, we get something completely different. And it's not even funny.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Mar 98 14:18 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Source Book Reviews [Em:] >It's not so much an issue of symmetry, as two other completely distinct >problems: > >1) It makes Kyrios of Yves obsolete and pointless. > >2) I find an invasion of the mind, even if it's non-intrusive, to be >counter to the entire Angelic mindset. Shedim are so horrible _because_ >they can invade the hosts minds and take their memories and skills. I disagree here -- I don't think that's the horrible aspect of Shedim. Rather, it's their ability to insidiously change the host *while he thinks it's his own idea* that squicks me the most. At least Kyrio "victims" are unaware of their behavior while "under".... Granted, that could be pretty mind-bending, but I don't see it as being in the same class as Shedim. >Not only that, but this is a big hole in the mechanics. Instead of the >Kyrio using their own skills, they'll just go body hopping to find the >'best person at this skill', and after using them they'll leave him like a >used tampon - and the person won't be any WORSE for it, so there will be >no dissonance. I found one aspect of the Kyrio resonance a little bit troublesome, though -- the fact that they were too likely to cause trouble for their hosts through ignorance. This is why I invented the "headbond" relic, which made it into LR under a slightly different name. The main intent was to give Kyrios a *little* access to their host's memories and job skills, so they weren't as likely to mess up their lives. This relic is *also* superfluous with the expanded Kyrio resonance. Frankly, I think it's much more balanced, and not particularly prone to "skill-hopping" abuse. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 14:53:00 -0400 From: Nana Yaw Ofori Subject: Re: IN> Variant Undead - Wight >Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 12:39:57 -0500 (EST) >From: Pee Kitty > >On Mon, 30 Mar 1998, Peter Frederick wrote: > > > >Nice Mummy variant. Not too powerful, but a definite advantage over the >Mummies (from Saminga's point of view, at least). I'd wonder why he didn't >make more of these...the loss of a characteristic and permanent wounds >aren't such a big deal when you consider that a Mummy would've been dead >(totally dead) by that point. > >> whole Force every time they revivify. When any of the Wightís >> characteristics reach zero he will die the final death and his soul go to >> it?s appropriate place. > >I should point out that Undead souls do NOT go anywhere when they die. The >soul is destroyed. That's what really sucks about being undead... > But it doesn't suck. Relatively, anyway. The alternative generally is "Spend the rest of all Eternity in Hell for deeds that you are guilty of." Given the option of instantly ceasing to exist upon death, or spending what remains of my afterlife being hunted down and Force-stripped by Sammy's goons, I'm pretty sure I'd choose the former. Sure, becoming Undead precludes you ever winding up in Heaven. But if they're going to make you a Mummy, well, you're probably way, way past the point where you had a chance of getting in. And if you ever do get sick and tired of working for your Demon Boss, just find a good situation to off yourself. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Mar 98 15:07 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Source Book Reviews [The Rev. Pee Kitty:] >I (and everyone else who got the book and has commented on it so far, it >seems) agree with this 100%. The NC was an interesting idea, presented >first in the main book and perfect for a LR adventure...it had a lot of >potential, but was CRIPPLED by the tiny amount of space it got! Since I wrote the original NC item, I'd like to clarify things a little bit. The Nybbas Computer item was originally written to go into the Superior Relics section, along with other powerful items that had been mentioned in the core rules or elsewhere, which the SJGames Superiors wanted in the book. When I wrote it, though, it came out as more of a plot seed. Since the editor (David Edelstein) needed a short adventure to fill a slot that had been in the outline from day one, he promoted the NC there, and added some material (most notably the NPCs). I was generally pleased with the result, and I'm not sure I would have known what to do with 10-12 pages, had I been trying for that. (Okay, I probably *could* have filled it, but it probably wouldn't have been the proper tone for "standard" IN -- I tend more towards the humorous when I write adventures.) > The >collector was a lame idea, poorly conceived, I actually liked the character, but was less impressed with the adventure. (I admit I haven't read the final version -- I saw a partially-completed draft late in the LR production cycle.) >Overall Grade: B- (A for quality, C- for inspiration) As one of the writers who contributed a fair number of items, I can explain at least where I was coming from, which may perhaps illuminate the inspiration issue. When I was writing up items, they tended to develop from roughly four sources: - an item name I thought interesting: Angel's Feather (which was cute *very* late -- the picture at the front of the common relics section belongs to it, though), the Slow Djinn Fuzz, Dehydrated Essence. - generally useful items that *someone* ought to have made: the Headbond (I forget the name it finally got), the Forceprinter, the Nap Sack, Song Grenades, etc. - Superior-related relics, where the item was related to a particular Superior's Word: Poison Pen, Skates Like the Wind, Power Ties, Nap Sack. At one point I had a list of Superiors which I was running through, asking myself the question, "What would this Superior think was a cool item to give to favored Servitors (or others)?" The list wasn't exhaustive, and I didn't try to make something for *every* Superior, but I was trying to spread things around a little. - filling in the blanks in game mechanics: the "Songman" (which didn't make the final cut, I think -- it taught Songs) was one of these, so were Primordial Clay, and Discord Dolls. None of the things I wrote was just an uber-cool description that I *had* to write, which is probably what you're looking for in the way of "inspiration". OK, maybe the B'lixteroth was, but it got cut (possibly for good reason -- it was a little... *strange*, and maybe just a bit silly). It was really late at night when I did that one.... My items were probably a bit pedestrian in feel -- I'm an engineer, not a writer (that's Elizabeth's job...). I certainly would have been hard put to come up with several dozen items with the mythic feel of the Grail, though. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 15:48:52 -0500 (EST) From: "York H. Dobyns" Subject: Re: IN> Source Book Reviews Walter Milliken writes: [...] >[Kevin Walsh:] [...] >>I disliked that in "The Marches" as well. Why was Blood & Circuses >>included at all? If it was deemed necessary to have a plot seed, why >>couldn't it have been more Marches specific? > >I had the same reaction, myself. Of all the advetures in the first >cycle (so far), this is the least relevant and least interesting. I [...] I think the relevance to The Marches is that it showcases sorcerers, and the respective resonances and dissonances of Menunim and Pachadim. Of course, the adventure in H&H, given that it has Loki and Thor running around, would have made a great deal more sense in The Marches. (Oddly enough, of all the characters wandering around in the H&H scenario -- yes, I've forgotten the title -- the one that captivated my interest, to the point where I found myself composing an entire campaign intro around him as a pivotal NPC, was Tancred the Malakite Remnant. Go figure.) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 15:37:51 -0500 From: "Kirt A. Dankmyer -- aka Loki" Subject: RE: IN> Ethereals as PCs? > For anyone considering including the Fay in their game as PC's, >NPC's, or even strong background, I can not recommend enough going out and >finding a copy of the Castle Falkenstein supplement, _The Memoirs of Auberon >of Faerie_. This book may not be a hundred percent faithful to the real >legends, but as a sourcebook for gaming the Fay, I have never seen anything >halfway as good. Much better (as gaming supplements go), IMHO, is the _Faeries_ supplement for 4th Edition Ars Magica. Of course, it denies this Seelie/Unseelie nonsense, but not everyone buys that division... -Loki - -- Kirt A. Dankmyer --- Academic Computing Specialist http://www.wfu.edu/~dankmyka/ -- (910) 759-4202 -- PGP public key available. For the Snark _was_ a Boojum, you see. --Lewis Carroll ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 18:29:09 EST From: JFZeigler Subject: IN> Anyone recognize this reference? Recently picked up Constance Victoria Briggs, _The Encyclopedia of Angels_. (ObReview: OK as a list of things angelic. Truly abysmal otherwise. Very New Age. Rather badly researched. There are better sources out there.) Anyway. One item that caught my eye was a notation about "reprobated angels." Seems the Church of Rome "reprobated" seven angels in the year 745 CE. Uriel was one of the seven. This has *got* to be tied in with the canonical story about Uriel being called to the Higher Heavens in the same year. Unfortunately, there isn't an ounce of explanation anywhere in the book, as far as I can tell. Does anyone have details about this? Why did the Church decide to "reprobate" seven angels, and what did the action imply? - ---------- Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, freelance writer, amateur historian, science fiction fan, occasional scribbler of bad poetry JFZeigler@aol.com "Never speak for others. You can get in enough trouble speaking for yourself." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 15:44:05 -0800 (PST) From: Querent Subject: Re: IN> Anyone recognize this reference? It's very tied to the IN story of Uriel. As has been beaten to death in the past, Uriel was recalled in 745 because in real life, the Catholic church decided to relegate him from the position of Archangel to saint. Why they did so, I don't know. I only know about the game specific tie in. Personally, I think they were reprobated because they got ugly haircuts. I know that if I was in 745 and my servants all looked like Alfalfa from the Little Rascals, I'd teach them a little something or other... They are most likely serving their penance in bald vessels. I think one of them might be responsible for rogaine, he seems the dissonant type... - ---JFZeigler wrote: > > Recently picked up Constance Victoria Briggs, _The Encyclopedia of Angels_. > > (ObReview: OK as a list of things angelic. Truly abysmal otherwise. Very > New Age. Rather badly researched. There are better sources out there.) > > Anyway. One item that caught my eye was a notation about "reprobated > angels." Seems the Church of Rome "reprobated" seven angels in the year > 745 CE. Uriel was one of the seven. > > This has *got* to be tied in with the canonical story about Uriel being called > to the Higher Heavens in the same year. Unfortunately, there isn't an ounce > of explanation anywhere in the book, as far as I can tell. > > Does anyone have details about this? Why did the Church decide to "reprobate" > seven angels, and what did the action imply? == --Querent, Angel of Widescreen. Mercurian Servitor of Creation. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 18:48:06 -0500 From: Jesse Subject: Re: IN> Anyone recognize this reference? >Anyway. One item that caught my eye was a notation about "reprobated >angels." Seems the Church of Rome "reprobated" seven angels in the year >745 CE. Uriel was one of the seven. >Does anyone have details about this? Why did the Church decide to "reprobate" >seven angels, and what did the action imply? In 745 AD the Catholic Church declared Uriel to be a mere angel, rather than the saint he was represented as, prior to 745. This is why Dereck picked 745. - -Jesse ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 00:46:01 +0100 From: Julian Breen Subject: IN> History (was Source Book Reviews) Emily wrote: >I found the History section to be personally lackluster. One of my Jewish >friends went on a rant about how it made the game so Euro-Christian >centric that she almost didn't want anything to do with the game anymore. >(The conversation about IN and how Protestant Eurocentric it is was the >matter of a 3 hour argument on Saturday, so it isn't without some merit. >It came down to, "They have Christianity, Catholicism in particular, they >have some modern Islam, but where are we, the Jews?" My answer was: >"The angels hate you. You get to go on another diaspora. Suck.") > The In Nomine history, to-date, is very poor. I think that an expanded history with canon on Biblical events (Old Testament specifically, and including such things as the Deluge, and the Covenant with the Hebrews), is needed. _Badly_. I have said this before and here it is again. I find the fact that SJG are touching on Christianity and Islam and avoiding Judaism extremely annoying. For example; there are patrons for both former religions and yet none for the latter. In the APG section on Religion, Christianity and Islam get a mention (however briefly) and Judaism gets...ignored. As a referee, I'd just like a canon viewpoint on the status of this faith. Is there a problem here? Is it assumed that many of us that aren't Jewish will get upset if IN assumes that the Jews *are* God's chosen people? Ick! I sure hope not. Please, all you good folk at SJG, stop sweeping this under the carpet and integrate it into the game. - -- Julian ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 22:15:09 +0900 From: Simon Hailes Subject: Re: IN> Variant Undead - Lich At 08:53 PM 30/03/98, you wrote: >Dear List > >Just something that came to me, hope someone gets some use out of it. > >Created by a ritual similar to that which creates Mummies, the Wight was >once a popular type of Undead. In many ways the Wight is similar to the >Mummy, but with an additional "advantage". Once the Mortal’s Forces are >bound into his Corporeal Form as a Wight he will not die unless his corpus >is substantially destroyed. Instead he will enter a deathlike coma for >days equal to his total Forces. After that time he will rise with all his >body hits restored. As long as the 80% or more of the Wight’s body >survives their death in close proximity, or scattered parts are recovered >and placed together, he will revivify. Some Servitors of Saminga know >rituals which can revivify a Wight faster than “natural”. > >On the down side the Wight retains permanently the outward appearance of >all the fatal wounds he has suffered and randomly loses a point off a >characteristic each time he revivifies. Some poorly made Wights lose a >whole Force every time they revivify. When any of the Wight’s >characteristics reach zero he will die the final death and his soul go to >it’s appropriate place. > >I have been thinking baout variant undead myself, though the Lich was what I was more interested in, in fact, one of my settings, In Nomine Chicago, has a Lich of its own that causes trouble theirin. Stats-A Lich starts out with 7 Forces, having two taped on to its physiogonomy or whatever, he has a natural aura of fear emanating from him (an attunement prehaps) which forces individuals to make will rolls or run screaming away, this aura can be suppressed. They can learn all types of songs and like the afformentioned wights, survive attacks that would be fatal to other undead, they have a phylactery that stores life energy and if this is destroyed then so is the Lich. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 22:28:18 +0900 From: Simon Hailes Subject: Re: IN> History (was Source Book Reviews) At 12:46 AM 31/03/98 +0100, you wrote: >Emily wrote: > > > >>I found the History section to be personally lackluster. One of my Jewish >>friends went on a rant about how it made the game so Euro-Christian >>centric that she almost didn't want anything to do with the game anymore. >>(The conversation about IN and how Protestant Eurocentric it is was the >>matter of a 3 hour argument on Saturday, so it isn't without some merit. >>It came down to, "They have Christianity, Catholicism in particular, they >>have some modern Islam, but where are we, the Jews?" My answer was: >>"The angels hate you. You get to go on another diaspora. Suck.") >> >The In Nomine history, to-date, is very poor. I think that an expanded >history with canon on Biblical events (Old Testament specifically, and >including such things as the Deluge, and the Covenant with the Hebrews), >is needed. _Badly_. > >I have said this before and here it is again. I find the fact that SJG >are touching on Christianity and Islam and avoiding Judaism extremely >annoying. For example; there are patrons for both former religions and >yet none for the latter. In the APG section on Religion, Christianity >and Islam get a mention (however briefly) and Judaism gets...ignored. >As a referee, I'd just like a canon viewpoint on the status of this >faith. > >Is there a problem here? Is it assumed that many of us that aren't >Jewish will get upset if IN assumes that the Jews *are* God's chosen >people? Ick! I sure hope not. > >Please, all you good folk at SJG, stop sweeping this under the carpet >and integrate it into the game. > >No offence to anyone, but IRL if I heard that any race, not just Jews, were chosen of God, I would be offended, and would embrace Atheism in an instant (Atheism or Paganism) at the shock of a racist God, and in In Nomine I'm glad that God doesn't play favorites, however Judaism does need some Canonical explanation, as for Biblical events, you already have the Garden of Eden. The Deluge, and Sodom and Gomorah, are things I personally, can do without. > > > >-- > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 21:26:50 -0500 (EST) From: Pee Kitty Subject: Re: IN> Source Book Reviews On Mon, 30 Mar 1998, Walter Milliken wrote: > Since I wrote the original NC item, I'd like to clarify things a little > bit. The Nybbas Computer item was originally written to go into the > Superior Relics section, along with other powerful items that had been > mentioned in the core rules or elsewhere, which the SJGames Superiors > wanted in the book. When I wrote it, though, it came out as more of a > plot seed. > > Since the editor (David Edelstein) needed a short adventure to fill a > slot that had been in the outline from day one, he promoted the NC > there, and added some material (most notably the NPCs). > > I was generally pleased with the result, and I'm not sure I would have > known what to do with 10-12 pages, had I been trying for that. (Okay, I > probably *could* have filled it, but it probably wouldn't have been the > proper tone for "standard" IN -- I tend more towards the humorous when I > write adventures.) Maybe you couldn't have used 10-12 pages, but it would have been much better if you'd gotten maybe 4-5 of those pages and then the other pages went towards more artifacts or another medium-sized plot seed. Basically, there were two plot seeds. One tiny, one huge. Two mediums would've been much better, especially if one of them was NOT The Collector. > > The collector was a lame idea, poorly conceived, > > I actually liked the character, but was less impressed with the > adventure. (I admit I haven't read the final version -- I saw a > partially-completed draft late in the LR production cycle.) Cute idea, okay character, stupid adventure, WAYYYYY too much space given in the book. It was NOT worth the space it was given. > >Overall Grade: B- (A for quality, C- for inspiration) > > As one of the writers who contributed a fair number of items, I can > explain at least where I was coming from, which may perhaps illuminate > the inspiration issue. When I was writing up items, they tended to > develop from roughly four sources: > > - an item name I thought interesting: Angel's Feather (which was cute > *very* late -- the picture at the front of the common relics section > belongs to it, though), the Slow Djinn Fuzz, Dehydrated Essence. Nice ideas, all of those. > - generally useful items that *someone* ought to have made: the > Headbond (I forget the name it finally got), the Forceprinter, the > Nap Sack, Song Grenades, etc. Useful, yes. I'll more than likely use most of them. > - Superior-related relics, where the item was related to a particular > Superior's Word: Poison Pen, Skates Like the Wind, Power Ties, Nap > Sack. At one point I had a list of Superiors which I was running > through, asking myself the question, "What would this Superior think > was a cool item to give to favored Servitors (or others)?" The list > wasn't exhaustive, and I didn't try to make something for *every* > Superior, but I was trying to spread things around a little. They were well done, also. Some would fit nicely into an adventure. > - filling in the blanks in game mechanics: the "Songman" (which didn't > make the final cut, I think -- it taught Songs) was one of these, so > were Primordial Clay, and Discord Dolls. I didn't see those as filling in any blanks, to be honest. > None of the things I wrote was just an uber-cool description that I > *had* to write, which is probably what you're looking for in the way of > "inspiration". OK, maybe the B'lixteroth was, but it got cut (possibly > for good reason -- it was a little... *strange*, and maybe just a bit > silly). It was really late at night when I did that one.... Post it! > My items were probably a bit pedestrian in feel -- I'm an engineer, not > a writer (that's Elizabeth's job...). I certainly would have been hard > put to come up with several dozen items with the mythic feel of the > Grail, though. Even the Holy Grail didn't grab me...mainly because I didn't like that one at all. The writeup was silly...if it's supposed to be a mystical mythical force, why give it stats? Why not just write up an adventure or plot seed based on it, and just DESCRIBE it there? Again, a waste of paper. I thought most of the artifacts were good and I'm going to use many of them. But I just wish there had been even ONE thing that just grabbed me as UberCool and made me HAVE to run an adventure featuring it. Nada. Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! And finally, a special message to \|/ ____ \|/ anyone who thinks I give a damn... ~@-/ oO \-@~ /_( \__/ )_\ \__U_/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 21:31:31 EST From: JFZeigler Subject: Re: IN> History (was Source Book Reviews) This bothers me too, a little. Maybe it's just because I'm an ancient history buff. The historical tie-ins that already exist in the canon are interesting, but there aren't enough of them. Those that are present *do* leave some awfully big gaps. No mention of Judaism, very little mention of Christianity outside of Catholicism. Islam is mentioned here and there, but again not in detail. Cultures outside the Judeo-Christian-Islamic tradition are almost ignored too. Hmmmm. How about an IN NOMINE sourcebook devoted to how the celestials have related to various human cultures throughout history? Along with some ideas for running IN NOMINE games in periods other than the present day? That's something I bet a lot of GMs out there could use. Comments? - ---------- Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, freelance writer, amateur historian, science fiction fan, occasional scribbler of bad poetry JFZeigler@aol.com "Never speak for others. You can get in enough trouble speaking for yourself." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 21:44:48 -0500 From: Neel Krishnaswami Subject: IN> Archangel of Grocers? I was looking up various real-world references to angels to loot for my game, and I came across something that boggled me: Michael, in addition to being the patron saint of such people as paratroopers, mariners and police, is also named the patron of grocers. (I was looking at Catholic stuff, btw.) Does anyone know the circumstances which led the Church to decide that the Prince of the Seraphim had a special place in his heart for grocers? (Obviously, this is so cool that I must include it in my game.) - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 22:41:03 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Source Book Reviews Wow, Emily, keep this up and I might think you've gone soft. Not only did you actually like my book, but you mostly liked and disliked the same sections as me in the APG (and didn't pan any that I wrote) ;) Seriously, would it surprise you that I agree with many of your comments? But naturally, not all. >>>The choir descriptions were nice, but the expanded resonances are game breakers, especially Mercurians and Kyriotates.<<< I don't use these in my games either. >>>And why do only half of the Choirs have expanded resonances, and the other half have helpful, and marginally useful, hints on application of the standard package? Did someone just get bored half way through?<<< No, different writers did different Choirs. One thing our illustrious Line Editor is doing now is making sure there is more consistency between writers who are working on the same project. >>>The first bug is the SONG OF SYMPHONY, which is a campaign breaker.<<< This falls very much into the YMMV category -- you'll see it and more Songs in the Songbook which some GMs will probably love, and others will probably say NIMC. The important thing about Songs (for which there wasn't enough space to go into detail in the LR, naturally), is that you can limit the ones that you consider "campaign breakers" to plot devices -- i.e. let them exist in your campaign, just make sure the PCs never learn them. >>>The second bug is more of a rant toward the plot seeds in the back of the book. I couldn't understand why they were there in the first place, being very obviously tacked on to the end as an afterthought.<<< No, actually the adventure seeds were planned from the first draft of the layout. >>>The second seed shouldn't have even been included, and the first seed, which has promise, was hampered by the lack of space - which it wouldn't have had if the second seed wasn't there.<<< Well, sorry to hear another "nay" vote on John Tyne's adventure, but _I_ still think Hypatia is cool. >>>One note - IMO, the game is about Angels and Demons. I know people have their pet Greek Gods, and lots of people watch XENA: WARRIOR PRINCESS, but if the game was about Ethereals it wouldn't be called IN NOMINE. Between the one about Nybbas and the one about a bunch of Muses, I would take the seed about Nybbas every time. It's simply more pertinant to the game.<<< Not sure what you mean here -- the Library of Alexandria only indirectly has anything to do with ethereals at all. The "Muses" call themselves that (or rather, Hypatia calls them that because of her classical sense of aesthetics), but they are all Soldiers of one Archangel or another. >>>My last one is a quibble about an artifact or two. The Maat Feather was my favorite, simply because, from an Egyptology standpoint, it was so truly bad.<<< Well, literary realism will take a back seat to playable material every time, but exactly why was Maat's Feather so very bad, just out of curiousity? - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 22:28:12 -0800 From: Armand Subject: Re: IN> History (was Source Book Reviews) >Emily wrote: > > > >>I found the History section to be personally lackluster. One of my Jewish >>friends went on a rant about how it made the game so Euro-Christian >>centric that she almost didn't want anything to do with the game anymore. >>(The conversation about IN and how Protestant Eurocentric it is was the >>matter of a 3 hour argument on Saturday, so it isn't without some merit. >>It came down to, "They have Christianity, Catholicism in particular, they >>have some modern Islam, but where are we, the Jews?" My answer was: >>"The angels hate you. You get to go on another diaspora. Suck.") >> >The In Nomine history, to-date, is very poor. I think that an expanded >history with canon on Biblical events (Old Testament specifically, and >including such things as the Deluge, and the Covenant with the Hebrews), >is needed. _Badly_. > >Julian Isn't this one of the points that SJG has tried to avoid? The history I mean. White Wolf goes the opposite direction. They have history tied down and gagged. Every supenratural entity that can, manipulates that version of history. Some of us have stated how SJG has gone the better way. Hence, history is going to suck. There are going to be major gaps. Guess what kids? We get to build it. Yep, it's hard work; but not impossible. We all sit here and toot our little horns on how creative we are. Let's get off the high horse and build a universe. I don't want a detailed crystalized history. I want something that I can make mine. Geez Armand Ofanim of "What Chasm?" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 10:50:25 +0100 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Source Book Reviews On Mon, Mar 30, 1998 at 03:48:52PM -0500, York H. Dobyns wrote: > I think the relevance to The Marches is that it showcases sorcerers, and > the respective resonances and dissonances of Menunim and Pachadim. Of Which it didn't exactly do very well. For one thing, it blatantly ignored the fact that all Sorcerors have to have a minimum of 6 Will. Also, it gave them the Song of Corporeal Entropy, which is surely the one Song that no demon will ever teach a Sorceror of its free will. That was just stupid. Also, it made out that there was an entire cabal of Sorcerors who were into nothing more than doing parlour tricks to get some money. AFAIR, their motivations weren't fleshed out at all. The vignette at the start of the Sorcery section was _much_ better than the entire scenario. As for the Menunim and Pachadim, I think that could have been done with more direct relevance to their creators. In all honesty, being robbed at a carnival is not one of my darkest nightmares. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "He was wont moreover to complain openly of the condition of the times wherein he lived, as not being renowned by any public calamities...And, at times, he wished for some terrible carnage of his armies, a famine, a pestilence, conflagrations, or an earthquake." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 07:01:08 -0500 From: Andrew Frades Subject: Re: IN> History Julian Breen wrote: > I have said this before and here it is again. I find the fact that SJG > are touching on Christianity and Islam and avoiding Judaism extremely > annoying. For example; there are patrons for both former religions and > yet none for the latter. In the APG section on Religion, Christianity > and Islam get a mention (however briefly) and Judaism gets...ignored. > As a referee, I'd just like a canon viewpoint on the status of this > faith. I agree that mre should be said about Judaism in general in IN but one needs to be careful. The game itself is not very Christian or Muslim (although it leans strongly occasionally) even though it has a great deal in common with both. There are however some serious problems from a canon IN point of view with Judiasm and specifically with a patron AA. Judaism does not believe in Hell and Lucifer is not the Adversary and is more like (sorry) the Devils's Advocate. His purpose is the temptation of the world to prove out who is worthy of Heaven. To the Jews this is all part of God's plan. Seriously though, am I the only one who sees this as a difficut possition for an AA to defend? IMC Michael is the defender of the Jews, he cares about them strongly but he is not the patron of their religion. IMO, IN has two difinitive sides, Heaven and Hell (arguably you can add the Ethereals), and they are enemies. In IN Hell is not part of God's plan, if that were so it would weaken the game, in my mind at least. Sure you could come up with all sorts of interesting stories and play them out, but in the end where does free will stand if there was only one choice all along. I think one of the best things you can do in an IN campaign is blur the lines of free will, but this blurs them too far for my game. For the record, I'm not real sure that having AA be the patrons of religions in the game was a real good idea. IMO in the game all Judeo/Christian/Muslim religions should have been an experiment of Yves. Just had a thought. What if Yves dicated the tenants of Judaism before the fall? At the time the religion was fairly true. Then after the fall Judaism was no longer true, but its believes were strong and held on to their religion and survived for thousands of years. Michael loves the Jews because they are survivors and he is their patron because of this. Andrew ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 13:02:35 +0100 From: "Ad." Subject: IN> Re: A favour > I (and everyone else who got the book and has commented on it so far, it > seems) agree with this 100%. The NC was an interesting idea, presented > first in the main book and perfect for a LR adventure...it had a lot of > potential, but was CRIPPLED by the tiny amount of space it got! The > collector was a lame idea, poorly conceived, and it got a dozen pages that > would've been better put to use for more artifacts and more Nybbas > Computer info. Could I point out that this comment could potentially cripple the use of that scenario for any GM like myself who has a player on this list. It might be an idea if people didn't mention anything specific about any published scenarios, just a thought, Adam. - -- "The seas boiled and the living envied the dead. All was shattered and all but memory lost, and one memory above all others, of him who brought the Shadow and the Breaking of the World. And him they named Dragon." - - from: The Breaking of the World, Author Unknown, Fourth Age. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #701 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.