From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Mar 31 11:43:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA05482 for ; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 11:43:09 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id KAA05258 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 10:58:46 -0600 Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 10:58:46 -0600 Message-Id: <199803311658.KAA05258@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #702 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, March 31 1998 Volume 01 : Number 702 In this digest: Re: IN> Variant Undead - Lich Re: IN> Variant Undead - Wight Re: IN> History IN> Pyrrhic Havens Re: IN> History (was Source Book Reviews) Re: IN> History (was Source Book Reviews) Re: IN> History Re: IN> Re: A favour Re: IN> History Re: IN> History (was Source Book Reviews) Re: IN> History (was Source Book Reviews) Re: IN> History (was Source Book Reviews) Re: IN> History (was Source Book Reviews) Re: IN> History (was Source Book Reviews) Re: IN> Source Book Reviews Re: IN> History (was Source Book Reviews) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 07:08:20 -0500 From: Andrew Frades Subject: Re: IN> Variant Undead - Lich Simon Hailes wrote: > I was more interested in, in fact, one of my settings, In Nomine Chicago, > has a Lich of its own that causes trouble theirin. > Stats-A Lich starts out with 7 Forces, having two taped on to its > physiogonomy or whatever, he has a natural aura of fear emanating from him > (an attunement prehaps) which forces individuals to make will rolls or run > screaming away, this aura can be suppressed. They can learn all types of > songs and like the afformentioned wights, survive attacks that would be > fatal to other undead, they have a phylactery that stores life energy and > if this is destroyed then so is the Lich. Give them a modified form of the bound discord and give them the points for it. I see no reason that a starting Lich type would be any more powerful than a starting Mummy (game wise all undead are just mummies with appropriate discord). Individual Mummies would gain extra powers as they aged and perhaps buy a force or two, but why would Saminga create undead that had more free will than demons and were just as powerful? Six forces is fine for starters and the extra points from the discord would allows them to buy extra songs, perhaps even a reverse version of the songs of attraction to push people away from them. Giving undead resonance is probably a bad idea. Andrew ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 22:48:47 From: Peter Frederick Subject: Re: IN> Variant Undead - Wight >>On Mon, 30 Mar 1998, Peter Frederick wrote: >>> whole Force every time they revivify. When any of the Wightís >>> characteristics reach zero he will die the final death and his soul go to >>> it?s appropriate place. >>Pee Kitty Commented >> >>I should point out that Undead souls do NOT go anywhere when they die. The >>soul is destroyed. That's what really sucks about being undead... Nana Yaw Ofori added > But it doesn't suck. Relatively, anyway. The alternative generally >is "Spend the rest of all Eternity in Hell for deeds that you are guilty >of." Given the option of instantly ceasing to exist upon death, or spending >what remains of my afterlife being hunted down and Force-stripped by >Sammy's goons, I'm pretty sure I'd choose the former. This is pretty much what I found myself thinking. If the Soul is destroyed with the Corpus then you're much better off being an Undead if you thought you were going to Hell, unless you believe all the propoganda about it being okay if you're in the organisation. I prefer to think that the Souls of Undead still get judged after their Corporeal form is destroyed. > Sure, becoming Undead precludes you ever winding up in Heaven. But >if they're going to make you a Mummy, well, you're probably way, way past >the point where you had a chance of getting in. And if you ever do get sick >and tired of working for your Demon Boss, just find a good situation to off >yourself. This sort of depends, if the only people handing out Unlife are Hell then you can be pretty sure that they pick the candidates fairly carefully. On the other hand, if you're immortal you've got a long time to straighten up and fly right. If a Demon can Redeem why not an undying Mortal? Thanking you for your indulgence. Regards, Peter. Reply to peterf@wr.com.au May the Goddess shelter you in the palm of her hand until we meet again. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 13:48:26 +0100 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: Re: IN> History - ---Andrew Frades wrote: > There are however some serious problems from > a canon IN point of view with Judiasm and specifically with a patron AA. > > Judaism does not believe in Hell and Lucifer is not the Adversary and is > more like (sorry) the Devils's Advocate. His purpose is the temptation > of the world to prove out who is worthy of Heaven. To the Jews this is > all part of God's plan. Yep, but of course in IN they don't have to be right about that ;) The reason I think it doesn't work is that as soon as you designate an AA as patron of Jews/ Judaism, you get the inevitable question 'So what was that AA doing during the holocaust/ spanish inquisition etc etc?' (I'm also not sure it was a great idea to designate AAs as patrons of religions. It does also beg the question of whether any DPs decided to inspire religions also -- maybe that is just to close to the bone), What might work better is either to designate a deceased/ departed Archangel (ie. Uriel) to that, or say that it was originally Michael but he turned that responsibility over to Yves whilst they were still on good terms. [Uriel might be interesting as there are tons of laws on ritual purity (such all the food preparation/ kashrut), and it implies that Laurence sponsors Christianity because he wants to prove that he can do better ;) ] Canonically, if you want to keep the chosen people thing, you could say that God really did speak personally through the burning bush (which would make it the only religion that was originated by God, rather than Gabriel/ Yves) and after God absconded, with no notes on what His intentions were, Michael took a personal interest (because he is so ultra-loyal) and Yves thought about it, and then decided to experiment with some copy-angel religious inpsiration. Michael may well think that Yves got jealous and set things up personally so that the religions he inspired deliberately became anti-semitic (although it has been pointed out previously that Jews lived quite happily alongside Muslims in Arab lands for a long time). But I think thats just Jewish-seraphic paranoia ;-) Other archangels who might suit: Dominic (all those laws -- 613 in total, not including the books and books and books of legal interpretation), David, Marc, Janus ... Archangels who would not suit: Laurence, Jordi, Eli Or maybe the other archangels decided this monotheism thing was a good idea but Judaism just wasn't spreading fast enough on its own so they each grabbed different sects and had a competition to see who could invent the most popular religion. (A bit like playing Populous with life). jo (nb. I may try to write up some of the myth-stuff but its tricky because some of it requires a lot of background to put it into context and althoguh I'm familiar with the stories, I'm not sure that I am expert enough to get it all absolutely right -- enough for other people to use). ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 23:03:13 From: Peter Frederick Subject: IN> Pyrrhic Havens Dear List another small piece of work avoidance. These rare artifacts are the ultimate in defensive installations, but at a price. Physically they generally appear as small statues or ornaments. While active they shield a number of people in a small dwelling from any Celestial and Ethereal Contact. No Celestial form may leave or enter the dwelling and the protected beings will not be able to enter the Ethereal plane by dreaming. The subjects may leave the dwelling, but will not be protected outside the dwelling and all must be present when the Haven is recharged. No Song will find or effect the protected subjects while they remain in the dwelling, although resonances will still be effective. There are some reports of Havens shielding their subjects from the direct attention of Archangels and Demon Princes, but these may be exaggerated. Every 24 hours the Haven requires 2 Essence for each person protected. Different Havens need to be recharged at different times of the day. Additionally every 12th time that a person recharges a Haven they will permently lose a Force. Where these Forces and Essence go is not known. Some have suggested that they go to the Haven's creator, but since no Haven's creator has ever been identified this theory is untestable. Due to the severe cost of using a Haven they tend to be used only by the desperate and then only for short periods of time. Thanking you for your indulgence. Regards, Peter. Reply to peterf@wr.com.au May the Goddess shelter you in the palm of her hand until we meet again. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 08:03:20 EST From: SienarFLT Subject: Re: IN> History (was Source Book Reviews) In a message dated 98-03-30 21:38:48 EST, you write: > The historical tie-ins that already exist in the canon are interesting, but > there aren't > enough of them. Those that are present *do* leave some awfully big gaps. > No > mention of Judaism, very little mention of Christianity outside of > Catholicism. > Islam is mentioned here and there, but again not in detail. Cultures > outside > the > Judeo-Christian-Islamic tradition are almost ignored too. > > Hmmmm. How about an IN NOMINE sourcebook devoted to how the celestials > have related to various human cultures throughout history? Along with some > ideas > for running IN NOMINE games in periods other than the present day? That's > something I bet a lot of GMs out there could use. ...And this is just one of the problems IMO that such a sourcebook would create. Pretty soon you have all sort of people coming out of the "gaming woodworks" complaining that their religion isn't represented. Personally I don't want a sourcebook that gives me all the different religions, for the same reason that I am NOT big on historical sourcebooks. I have enough history books sitting on my shelf. What I can't find, I go to the library. That's what this List is for. We've had A LOT of good ideas that gamers have contributed, on buddhism, different historical times, etc. Keep posting those ideas to the list; I find them highly useful, but they don't necessarily have to have a sourcebook for each and every one of them. My campaign takes place in the contemporary world, and yes while angels are ancient entities, my players have had a fun time researching, sometimes just making stuff up, and coming up with darn good ideas for their angels' histories. -- Thom Dawson (reply to SienarFLT@aol.com) Impudite of Peanut Butter in service to Haagenti, or ... Mercurian of Lost Endings in service to Yves ... I just haven't made up my mind yet! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 08:19:32 EST From: JFZeigler Subject: Re: IN> History (was Source Book Reviews) In a message dated 98-03-31 01:28:46 EST, armand@spiretech.com writes: << White Wolf goes the opposite direction. They have history tied down and gagged. Every supenratural entity that can, manipulates that version of history. Some of us have stated how SJG has gone the better way. >> Objection noted. I never liked the White Wolf version of history, for just this reason -- ordinary human beings seemed to have no role in it. Everything was just the machination of some vampire Clan or werewolf Tribe or mage Tradition or *some* blasted thing. I once ran a campaign set in ancient times, using a lot of the White Wolf material, but ignoring their history entirely (which wasn't hard -- they didn't have much canon for the Bronze Age :-). IN NOMINE seems to me to be a lot more about real human beings, and the dignity they have because of their free will. That's much better. Still, it's the old problem with producing source material for an RPG. Some people want things laid out for them so they can concentrate on the details of a campaign. Other folks *like* worldbuilding. How do you satisfy everyone? I refer you to a fine sourcebook: GURPS TIMELINE. It was published as a companion volume for GURPS TIME TRAVEL. Basically it's a compressed world history -- slanted only slightly toward Western civilization -- with lots of adventure seeds and campaign ideas salted throughout. Nowhere did the book say "this happened because time travellers made it happen," but one came away from it with plenty of ideas for one's personal campaign. Maybe something like this is what IN NOMINE needs. A summary of real- world history and the beliefs of real-world religions. Some ideas as to how the relevant myths fit in. Ideas and adventure seeds regarding how the celestial realm might have interacted with the historical events. If done properly, such a thing wouldn't have to put the canon in a strait- jacket. And those who found even that much source material intolerable wouldn't be required to buy or use the book. - ---------- Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, freelance writer, amateur historian, science fiction fan, occasional scribbler of bad poetry JFZeigler@aol.com "Never speak for others. You can get in enough trouble speaking for yourself." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 08:36:11 EST From: JFZeigler Subject: Re: IN> History In a message dated 98-03-31 07:21:34 EST, afrades@sprintmail.com writes: << Just had a thought. What if Yves dicated the tenants of Judaism before the fall? At the time the religion was fairly true. Then after the fall Judaism was no longer true, but its believes were strong and held on to their religion and survived for thousands of years. Michael loves the Jews because they are survivors and he is their patron because of this. >> Interesting notion. If you riffle through the Old Testament, it sure looks as if Lucifer is an accepted part of the Heavenly hierarchy all the way into historical times -- check out his role in the Book of Job, for instance. Near as I can tell from a quick glance through my concordance, there's no mention of "fallen angels" as such in the Old Testament at all. There are a couple of references to "evil spirits" in the time of the Kings, say about 1000 BCE and later. One could probably make a case that the Fall happened sometime near the end of the Bronze Age, by which time Judaism was already well- established. - ---------- Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, freelance writer, amateur historian, science fiction fan, occasional scribbler of bad poetry JFZeigler@aol.com "Never speak for others. You can get in enough trouble speaking for yourself." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 09:09:40 -0500 From: Sean Michael Whipkey Subject: Re: IN> Re: A favour At 13:02 +0100 3/31/98, Ad. wrote: >Could I point out that this comment could potentially cripple the use of >that scenario for any GM like myself who has a player on this list. >It might be an idea if people didn't mention anything specific about any >published scenarios, Unfortunately, a number of GMs on the list (such as myself) have players on the list, too. My suggestion? First, if you are using something that you posted to the list, give them a warning at the beginning. (I usually say something like "Read this and die, Dan, and then I'll ... ) but I won't go there despite my resonance. Secondly, never use anything without mangling it. Sure, my players *know* they're playing Feast of Blades right now, especially Dan who's been on this list for a while, but I've been busy throwing in a lot more stuff to Richmond (where mine takes place) then they know what's going on. So sure it may *look* like what he's read (and I trust him enough not to act on OOC information), but who knows what's really going on? Finally - you can always ask the player to use his discretion. Like it or not, there's going to be discussions of published scenarios on here; that's one of the reasons the list is here. Ask him to watch what he's reading and use his head; there's no fun in a scenario spoiled. If he's the kind of player that *likes* to have it spoiled so he can rampant over it, then you've got another problem all together...:) SeanMike Balseraph of Kobal, Demon of gratuitous unnecessary disgusting statements. - -- "'What I figure,' Calla continued, 'is that anything adult humans want to do in the privacy of their bedrooms is going to be unspeakably disgusting. So there's no point in drawing distinctions between one revolting act and another.'" - David Drake ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 09:40:52 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> History Jon Zeigler wrote: > Interesting notion. If you riffle through the Old Testament, it sure > looks as if Lucifer is an accepted part of the Heavenly hierarchy all > the way into historical times -- check out his role in the Book of > Job, for instance. ... > One could probably make a case that the Fall happened sometime near > the end of the Bronze Age, by which time Judaism was already well- > established. There is no unifed tradition in the monotheistic religions for the time of the Fall. As mentioned, in some forms of Judaism there is no Fall at all. In Islam, it happened shortly after the creation of Adam, when Iblis (Satan) refused to do honor to the new creature. I think IN canon puts it at the same time? In the Christian theology of Scholasticism, the Fall was at the beginning of time. Milton uses this in "Paradise Lost." In a lot of Christian folklore, the Fall is at some time around the life of Christ. This is at least partly derived from the book of Revelation. There, right after a vision in which "the Woman of God" gives birth to a baby who is caught up into heaven, Michael and Satan make war in heaven and Satan is cast down. One could suppose that, prior to this, the revolt was just political dissent (at least at the time of Job), escalating into an underground resistance movement, until it boils over into war at the time of Christ. But that means going out of the IN canon. - --- On the general question of Judaism: I agree that the IN books should say something about Judaism, at least for parity's sake. And it is no good saying that Jewish pneumatology is incompatible with the IN world. So are Christian and Moslem. WAY incompatible. I get the strong feeling that the IN writers simply do not realize how deeply deviant and heretical their picture of the nature of God is. At least, they don't care. And besides, much of IN is already borrowed from Jewish sources. The whole tale of Lilith is at least ostensibly Jewish in origin (though it may be a non-Jewish fake). And there is certainly Jewish precedent for a community of evil spirits, even if there isn't a standard Jewish doctrine of Hell -- the Caballa and its fans list lots and lots of demons, and describe their political relations. The issue of "who is the chosen people" can be left alone, just as the claims of Christianity and Islam both to be the only true religions can be left alone. As to all the other religions -- tough. IN is clearly a game about the body of angel/demon folklore held in common by the three monotheistic religions. That's its premise. Anything incompatible with that HAS to be marginalized to some degree or another, or the game gets diluted. I think the smarted course for SJG regarding other religions in IN is to ignore them as much as possible. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 09:50:29 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> History (was Source Book Reviews) JFZeigler wrote: > I refer you to a fine sourcebook: GURPS TIMELINE. It was published > as a companion volume for GURPS TIME TRAVEL. Basically it's a > compressed world history -- slanted only slightly toward Western > civilization -- with lots of adventure seeds and campaign ideas salted > throughout. Nowhere did the book say "this happened because time > travellers made it happen," but one came away from it with plenty of > ideas for one's personal campaign. Good idea. An IN timeline, however, could be garnished with dates -- or at least relative sequence -- for legendary and mythical events, and give special attention to religious events, e.g.: Creation of Adam and Lilith Creation of Eve Fall of Humanity Birth of Cain Death of Abel Birth of Seth Founding of the city of Enoch Ascension of the patriarch Enoch Flood Tower of Babel Fall of Atlantis (& Mu & Hyperborea if you like) Trojan War & events of Illiad the Exodus Events of Odyssey and Anaeid (sp?) Wars of the Fomorians and Tuatha de Danaan reign of Arthur in Britain etc. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 09:55:11 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> History (was Source Book Reviews) > Hmmmm. How about an IN NOMINE sourcebook devoted to how the celestials > have related to various human cultures throughout history? Along with some > ideas > for running IN NOMINE games in periods other than the present day? That's > something I bet a lot of GMs out there could use. > Trivia fact: I have a "IN TO-DO List" on my white board behind me. On this board are the words "Do a 70 AD scenario for In Nomine". Although I think that was before the time of Plotinus, I think I can scrape up enough material to keep me happy for, oh, maybe several decades. :) Personally, I believe doing a much better, and accurate, history would be excellent, and have it include other Cultures outside the nasty Eurocentric thing we have going here. Hell, I'd be happy to do the research for it for accuracy, because there are some pretty excellent points in history... and I can make them appropriately dark and interesting. As an aside, I have always thought it would be cool to do late Roman Conquest of England, and have Artius, who supposedly became Arthur, be a servant of Baal, and Mordred be a servant of Uriel... and have human history 'give it to the victor'. I know it's not very Mallory like, but it's appropriately dark and nasty for that point in history. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 09:57:19 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> History (was Source Book Reviews) > Isn't this one of the points that SJG has tried to avoid? The history I > mean. White Wolf goes the opposite direction. They have history tied down > and gagged. Every supenratural entity that can, manipulates that version > of history. Some of us have stated how SJG has gone the better way. > Hence, history is going to suck. There are going to be major gaps. Guess > what kids? We get to build it. Yep, it's hard work; but not impossible. > We all sit here and toot our little horns on how creative we are. Let's > get off the high horse and build a universe. I don't want a detailed > crystalized history. I want something that I can make mine. Geez > I have no quibble about letting 'human history be the GMs', but I believe, in general, that CELESTIAL history needs work, not Human history. Remember, there are things that happened up on that plane of existance that only affects mankind as an aftershock. And what there is right now is extremely watered down Western European Generic Christianity. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 10:29:30 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> History (was Source Book Reviews) > >No offence to anyone, but IRL if I heard that any race, not just Jews, > were chosen of God, I would be offended, and would embrace Atheism in an > instant (Atheism or Paganism) at the shock of a racist God, and in In > Nomine I'm glad that God doesn't play favorites, however Judaism does need > some Canonical explanation, as for Biblical events, you already have the > Garden of Eden. The Deluge, and Sodom and Gomorah, are things I > personally, can do without. Not to quibble, but have you read Deuteronomy lately? Torahtorahtorah - "For you are a people holy to the LORD your God. The LORD your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession." - Deuteronomy 7:6 "For you are a people holy to the LORD your God. Out of all the peoples on the face of the earth, the LORD has chosen you to be his treasured possession." - Deuteronomy 14:2 And this is the last line before it starts ripping into the dietary/lifestyle laws. I know it's picking nits, but the Law states that the Jews are the Chosen People. It's just how it is, and maybe it's justification for 4000 years of pain and blood and anger. It's a tenant of the religion. Not that God Himself came down and said this (it's in Deuteronomy after all) but that is what is written. You may pick up your Atheism pamphlet complete with a copy of "Being and Nothingness" by Jean-Paul Sartre at the door on the way out. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 11:12:13 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> History (was Source Book Reviews) \> The In Nomine history, to-date, is very poor. I think that an expanded > history with canon on Biblical events (Old Testament specifically, and > including such things as the Deluge, and the Covenant with the Hebrews), > is needed. _Badly_. > > I have said this before and here it is again. I find the fact that SJG > are touching on Christianity and Islam and avoiding Judaism extremely > annoying. For example; there are patrons for both former religions and > yet none for the latter. In the APG section on Religion, Christianity > and Islam get a mention (however briefly) and Judaism gets...ignored. > As a referee, I'd just like a canon viewpoint on the status of this > faith. > > Is there a problem here? Is it assumed that many of us that aren't > Jewish will get upset if IN assumes that the Jews *are* God's chosen > people? Ick! I sure hope not. > > Please, all you good folk at SJG, stop sweeping this under the carpet > and integrate it into the game. There is an easy, quick, and mostly painless way to integrate some of Judiasm into In Nomine. And it's all in Genesis 18 and some of the theories that have come out about that. To Abraham's tent come three strange men, who are "The Lord". They come and tell Sarah that she is going to bear a son (Isaac) and that Abraham will be the 'Father of Nations'. And then the three strangers tell Abraham that he is going to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah. Who the strange men are who spoke as the Lord is up to speculation, the book of Genesis doesn't come right out and SAY. I've seen it written down that it is Michael-Gabriel-Uriel or Michael-Gabriel-Raphael. As to the two angels who fulfill Abraham's request (if there are any Righteous in all of Sodom get them out so that only the unrighteous perish, yadda) they are again probably Michael and Gabriel. So there you go. They came down and announced that Abraham is the 'Father of Nations', kicking off not one, but three major religions. (Ishmael is supposedly the founder of the Arab people, and in a way, Islam.) Heck, if this is so, and that Ishmael is the founder of the Arab people in In Nomine, then Gabriel coming down to preach to Mohammad was a matter of 'Destiny' as set forth from Yves. It was prophesied by 'the Lord' in Genesis that Ishmael's decendants would make a great nation: 'And Abraham said to God, "If only Ishmael might live under your blessing!" Then God said, "Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him. And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation. But my covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you by this time next year."' - Genesis 17:18/21 It all ties up neatly. The Angels cause Sarah to bear Isaac. They bear the message that he will begin Judiasm. You've got your patrons. ... don't mind me, I'm still a little obsessed with Abraham and Isaac after reading Kierkegaard's "Fear and Trembling". - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 11:42:01 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Source Book Reviews > Wow, Emily, keep this up and I might think you've gone soft. Not only did > you actually like my book, but you mostly liked and disliked the same > sections as me in the APG (and didn't pan any that I wrote) ;) Maybe I'm just getting old. :) Hey, I give due. It's not often, but I do. > >>>And why do only half of the Choirs have expanded resonances, and the > other half have helpful, and marginally useful, hints on application of the > standard package? Did someone just get bored half way through?<<< > > No, different writers did different Choirs. One thing our illustrious Line > Editor is doing now is making sure there is more consistency between > writers who are working on the same project. > I had noticed, in the difference in writing styles. This may be why some of the Choir writeups seem 'sane' (I thought Elohim wasn't too bad) and some feel like they're off the wall. > This falls very much into the YMMV category -- you'll see it and more Songs > in the Songbook which some GMs will probably love, and others will probably > say NIMC. The important thing about Songs (for which there wasn't enough > space to go into detail in the LR, naturally), is that you can limit the > ones that you consider "campaign breakers" to plot devices -- i.e. let them > exist in your campaign, just make sure the PCs never learn them. > Songs and Artifacts, in my opinion, are much easier to limit then expanded Choir resonances and the like. I have no quibble - well, not much - of Songs which are over the top. Just that some of them are going to have big Nos on them for belonging to PCs, just like artifacts. > >>>The second seed shouldn't have even been included, and the first seed, > which has promise, was hampered by the lack of space - which it wouldn't > have had if the second seed wasn't there.<<< > > Well, sorry to hear another "nay" vote on John Tyne's adventure, but _I_ > still think Hypatia is cool. You're outnumbered and outgunned! :) > >>>One note - IMO, the game is about Angels and Demons. I know people have > their pet Greek Gods, and lots of people watch XENA: WARRIOR PRINCESS, but > if the game was about Ethereals it wouldn't be called IN NOMINE. Between > the one about Nybbas and the one about a bunch of Muses, I would take the > seed about Nybbas every time. It's simply more pertinant to the game.<<< > > Not sure what you mean here -- the Library of Alexandria only indirectly > has anything to do with ethereals at all. The "Muses" call themselves that > (or rather, Hypatia calls them that because of her classical sense of > aesthetics), but they are all Soldiers of one Archangel or another. Mmmmm... I think my comment was more aimed at the adventures in general. Out of the adventures, we've had two which revolved around Ethereals. I think the adventures, if we have to have them, should be more celestial-centric, or politics-centric. But this is just my opinion. > >>>My last one is a quibble about an artifact or two. The Maat Feather was > my favorite, simply because, from an Egyptology standpoint, it was so > truly bad.<<< > > Well, literary realism will take a back seat to playable material every > time, but exactly why was Maat's Feather so very bad, just out of > curiousity? It's difficult to describe, but one of my Egyptian Religon books (the good yet boring one translated from German) spends over half of the book on 'the Concept of Ma'at in the Egyptian Mindset'. I don't want to get into details, I can do some quick refresher reading and make a post if people are really that interested in Ma'at, but: A) It's spelled wrong. :) Okay, it's minor, but the word is written with a glottal stop. b) Ma'at is the Egyptian equivalent of the Holy Ghost. Like Amann, the Hidden One (the air), Ma'at is possessed in every being and every thing. Every person tries to strive to become one with Ma'at, and speak truthfully at all times. When a person dies, they become 'full of Ma'at' which is "Maa?-Hrw", literally "True of Voice". So the translation for a funerary document is "Ani, True of Voice, Speaks:" and then he gives some large proclimation about life, the universe, and everything. The normal documents and stories have people like Sinuhe and the Advisor of Amenope and other 'wise beings' being "Full of Truth" and "With Truth" and "Containing Truth" - all of which translates to maa?, or the feminine version which is poorly translated - maa?t. Ma'at is not a deity in the way that the very popular Ennead Gods tend to be - Isis, Osiris, Horus, etc. She technically has no real physical 'being'. She is a presence, like a life force, and an ideal in which one is to attain. Everything has truthfulness, everything that is in being contains truth and law. The Egyptians were more then passingly obsessed with 'uttering the truth'. c) The Ma'at feather you are thinking of is from the Book of the Dead (the prt m hrw - technically the Book of Going Forth By Day). In specific the 121st chapter of the book of the dead. Even more specific, the 121st part B chapter of the book of the dead from the Papyrus of Ani. Hell, even more specifically, the 121st chapter of the Book of the Dead from the Papyrus of Ani from the Translation by Sir E. A. Wallis Budge - and THERE is where your problem is. Poor translations will bite you on the butt every time. This is all better known as the "Weighing of the Heart Ceremony" which is a very important piece - and important enough that I've translated it! Ah ha! I know it well. The heart of the Deceased, in this case the Advisor-Priest Ani, is in the shape of a jar, painted red. (The Egyptians believed that the soul lived in the heart, and that the heart held all memory of 'impure thoughts and acts'. This is why they could pull the brains out, they believed the brains were just headstuffing. ) On the other side of the scale is the Feather of Truth, referred to as "Maa?" just like it is everywhere. If the Heart will be lighter then the divine Truth then you have lived your life well and are permitted to the AmDuat. If you were a lying scumbag, you were fed to the Eater of Souls. Ma'at is not listed among the 'Gods present at the Trial' because she's not a God. She never has been a God, even though she's caught up in the firm Ogdoad version of Symmetry. She's a Concept. That's why there aren't huge temples to Ma'at, or entire cities dedicated to her, and why no occultist I've ever spoken to has ever heard of her. The Egyptians were a literary people. They loved puns, word plays, metaphors, parables, and the like. There is nothing like translating along, thinking you're doing well, and going "What the HELL is THIS?" because you've hit another pun, which is difficult to translate without the vowels. In the Book of the Dead, the entire chapter is a Metaphor. d) The concept of having Ma'at have an artifact made me spew Coke all over the place. :) ******************* Sorry for inundating the list with this mess. It's all be sitting in my head. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 08:51:03 -0800 From: Armand Subject: Re: IN> History (was Source Book Reviews) >> Isn't this one of the points that SJG has tried to avoid? The history I >> mean. White Wolf goes the opposite direction. They have history tied down >> and gagged. Every supenratural entity that can, manipulates that version >> of history. Some of us have stated how SJG has gone the better way. >> Hence, history is going to suck. There are going to be major gaps. Guess >> what kids? We get to build it. Yep, it's hard work; but not impossible. >> We all sit here and toot our little horns on how creative we are. Let's >> get off the high horse and build a universe. I don't want a detailed >> crystalized history. I want something that I can make mine. Geez >> > >I have no quibble about letting 'human history be the GMs', but I believe, >in general, that CELESTIAL history needs work, not Human history. >Remember, there are things that happened up on that plane of existance >that only affects mankind as an aftershock. And what there is right now >is extremely watered down Western European Generic Christianity. > >- Em Even so, I think the history is up to us. In the main book, they have a list of dire enemies of the Superiors. Each AA has a list of enemies and allies among their own side of the chess board. Again, it sounds like it's up to us. Yesterday, I was watching an interview with Anne Rice. She was asked how she writes. In response, she stated that she came up with situations for the characters to over come. The characters will do what is in their nature. Celestial history is likewise. For instance, the hate between Laurence and Saminga (I'm trying to play with one that hasn't been too horribly extrapolated upon), who started it? The easy way is to say that Saminga was just a bit miffed at the idea that Laurence, who's Word is an instrument of death, should still remain in heaven. My take would be the idea that there was an AA of Death, he died during the Fall. (ironic) In Hell, Saminga gets the word of Death. There are a number of angels gone that have Saminga's name ascribed to them. One of those angels was named Laurence. Laurence, who had known only LOVE, now had a taste for war, and now a desire for more of it. With all the Uriel stuff going on, Laurence saw his chance to advance. He becomes an AA and continues to war on Saminga. It still irritates him that Saminga doesn't take credit for the pain that he has caused in Heaven. Even worse, occasionally Laurence needs bailed out after one of their skirmishes. This only raises Laurences ire. Saminga, meanwhile, has only recently taken notice of the young AA. (For a visual reference, think of Bruce from Kids in the Hall in his white trash role. Saminga is Andre the Giant.) At first, Saminga was amused, but had other business to attend to. However, the little guy wouldn't stop. So, Saminga plotted to get the annoying twit out of his way. Saminga, was directly involved with the death of thirty of Laurence's servitors. The stage was set. Laurence, with all the rage of one who has suffered personal loss, comes to some predetirmined spot. There, Saminga is waiting for him. The fight last for days, but near the end, it becomes apparent that Saminga is letting Laurence know that it could be ended far quicker. Laurence is blinded by his rage. Saminga's feint is successful. A nearly crippling blow is dealt to the AA. Michael had been watching this to see how his lap dog would do. As Saminga was pressing for a killing blow, Michael interfered. The body of the young AA is carried to Heaven by the AA of War. Saminga has waited in the shadows for a final chance to finish off Laurence. All the while, the war continues. There, while the Celestial history may not be all mapped out, we may take the tools offered and build the world. I have never cared about either Laurence or Saminga before. Just this morning, over my cerial, I used the simple facts that Laurence and Saminga hate each other and Michael has bailed out Lawrence a time or two. Am I the only one revelling in the freedom that I have as a GM in this game? Armand Ofanim on the go! ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #702 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.