From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Mar 31 22:46:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA01044 for ; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 22:46:43 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id WAA17940 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 22:38:29 -0600 Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 22:38:29 -0600 Message-Id: <199804010438.WAA17940@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #703 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, March 31 1998 Volume 01 : Number 703 In this digest: Re: IN> Source Book Reviews Re: IN> Source Book Reviews Re: IN> Source Book Reviews IN> RE: Lich IN> RE:APG and another book Re: IN> History (was Source Book Reviews) IN> RE:history Re: IN> History IN> Re: innomine question Re: IN> Source Book Reviews IN> Plot Seed: The Mirror People IN> LAST TIME I SWEAR: off topic again!! Re: IN> Re: A favour IN> A Note and A Question Re: IN> A Note and A Question Re: IN> History (was Source Book Reviews) Re: IN> History (was Source Book Reviews) IN> History (was Source Book Reviews) Re: IN> History (was Source Book Reviews) Re: IN> History Re: IN> A Note and A Question IN> History IN> History IN> Fluff break Re: IN> Fluff break Re: IN> History Re: IN> History (was Source Book Reviews) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 11:57:55 -0500 From: Sean Michael Whipkey Subject: Re: IN> Source Book Reviews At 11:42 -0500 3/31/98, Emily Dresner wrote: >metaphors, parables, and the like. There is nothing like translating >along, thinking you're doing well, and going "What the HELL is THIS?" >because you've hit another pun, which is difficult to translate without >the vowels. In that case, I would definitely blame Kobal. Okay, I'll butt back out again. I'm still waiting to see if I convinced rpg.net to give me a free copy of Liber Reliquarium...:) SeanMike - -- "'What I figure,' Calla continued, 'is that anything adult humans want to do in the privacy of their bedrooms is going to be unspeakably disgusting. So there's no point in drawing distinctions between one revolting act and another.'" - David Drake ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 98 11:59 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Source Book Reviews >Basically, there were two plot seeds. One tiny, one huge. Two mediums >would've been much better, especially if one of them was NOT The >Collector. Having looked at the final version last night, I'd agree -- as an adventure it's a rather weak one. >> - filling in the blanks in game mechanics: the "Songman" (which didn't >> make the final cut, I think -- it taught Songs) was one of these, so >> were Primordial Clay, and Discord Dolls. > >I didn't see those as filling in any blanks, to be honest. Well, the "Songman" was originally intended to explain how celestials managed to give Songs to Soldiers. (This is mentioned in one of the stories in the core book -- there are now going to be other mechanisms for Song transfer in upcoming canon.) Clay was intended to offer a way for Outcasts/Renegades to get vessels without involving a Superior. Discord Dolls were intended as a way for the heavily-Discordant to be able to function in the corporeal realm for a while without being *too* obvious. >> None of the things I wrote was just an uber-cool description that I >> *had* to write, which is probably what you're looking for in the way of >> "inspiration". OK, maybe the B'lixteroth was, but it got cut (possibly >> for good reason -- it was a little... *strange*, and maybe just a bit >> silly). It was really late at night when I did that one.... > >Post it! I can't -- SJGames holds the rights to all the stuff I wrote, so it needs official action. At some point, I'd like to see some of the items cut from the LR published in Pyramid, or on the INC. This is probably do-able, but I've not had time to pursue it. I'm not sure you'd have found it uber-cool, anyway... it was more strange/potentially silly than mythic. >Even the Holy Grail didn't grab me...mainly because I didn't like that one >at all. The writeup was silly...if it's supposed to be a mystical mythical >force, why give it stats? Why not just write up an adventure or plot seed >based on it, and just DESCRIBE it there? Again, a waste of paper. I didn't think so (and no, I didn't do it). Personally, I really liked the Grail writeup, and wished I could have done it as well. As far as giving it stats, there would be just as many complaints if it had been done the way you suggest, I think. I don't mind not having plot seeds for the Grail -- in some ways it's *the* relic McGuffin. People are *always* chasing after it. It's a Cheap Plot Trick, in my book. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 12:10:19 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Source Book Reviews > >metaphors, parables, and the like. There is nothing like translating > >along, thinking you're doing well, and going "What the HELL is THIS?" > >because you've hit another pun, which is difficult to translate without > >the vowels. > > In that case, I would definitely blame Kobal. I personally blame Kobal for several sad little translations that came out "The Peasant sat on the Pharoah's (nsw) Face" instead of "The Peasant cowered before the Pharoah's might." Hah. And people wonder why I didn't come out of that sane. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 09:12:20 PST From: "Chris Crowe" Subject: IN> RE: Lich >>>Stats-A Lich starts out with 7 Forces, having two taped on to its physiogonomy or whatever, he has a natural aura of fear emanating from him (an attunement prehaps) which forces individuals to make will rolls or run screaming away, this aura can be suppressed. They can learn all types of songs and like the afformentioned wights, survive attacks that would be fatal to other undead, they have a phylactery that stores life energy and if this is destroyed then so is the Lich.<<< Sounds very AD&D-ish to me, not tha i'm poking fun or anything. i used stuff from AD&D to help me with the Songs i wrote and a few attunements for the rules on Elementals that i'm writing. which, by the way, are almost done and will be posted on my webpage soon. i have fire and earth elementals "done" (i.e. written but un-playtested) and air elementals are near completion. my next project will be lycanthropes and undead (similar to the wight and lich stuff recently posted along with wraiths and some others). nice idea, just keep working at it. Krowe, Malakim of Destiny, Angel of Redemption ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 09:18:08 PST From: "Chris Crowe" Subject: IN> RE:APG and another book >>>The worst part of the book is that the end of the 'Degeneration of the Malakim' section is a flat out advertisement for Fall of the Malakim. Look, we know you want our money, but you can at least be marginally subtle. It's not only insulting, but it keeps the book from standing alone outside the Revelations Cycle. The entire last paragraph needs to be rewritten.<<< i liked the description of how Malakim could acquire dissonance and how they react to it, but i agree with you on it being a shameless plug for _Fall of the Malakim_. on another note: >>>Recently picked up Constance Victoria Briggs, _The Encyclopedia of Angels_ (ObReview: OK as a list of things angelic. Truly abysmal otherwise. Very New Age. Rather badly researched. There are better sources out there.)<<< I recently got that one from my local library and have had the same reaction to it. some of the things in it are completely silly. such as the movies and organizations listed simply because they use the word Angel. oh well..... Krowe, Malakim of Destiny, Angel of Redemption ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 98 12:13 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> History (was Source Book Reviews) >The historical tie-ins that already exist in the canon are interesting, but >there aren't >enough of them. Those that are present *do* leave some awfully big gaps. I can't speak authoritatively, but my impression is that part of this is deliberate -- there's a desire not to define celestial involvement in the corporeal realm *too* rigidly, leaving GMs scope for customization. That said, yes, I also see the need for "In Nomine - Historical" or some such thing. > No >mention of Judaism, very little mention of Christianity outside of >Catholicism. >Islam is mentioned here and there, but again not in detail. Cultures outside >the >Judeo-Christian-Islamic tradition are almost ignored too. That, I'm unsure about -- it may simply be that the stuff that's been done so far is what's most easily accessible, *plus* the fact that IN assumes, to some extent, that the Christian mythos is true. I'd be happy to see other religions or factions thereof brought into the game, but to some extent, the game really *isn't* about religion, per se -- it's about celestials. >Hmmmm. How about an IN NOMINE sourcebook devoted to how the celestials >have related to various human cultures throughout history? Along with some >ideas >for running IN NOMINE games in periods other than the present day? That's >something I bet a lot of GMs out there could use. Some guidelines for historical IN, yes, I've said something similar. I don't particularly like the idea of "World History According to In Nomine", though. For one thing, it's too big a project (look at the limited amount of detail GURPS Timeline manages to handle while covering *everything*). For another, I'd find it too constraining as a GM. *Some* more historical detail, yes. I suspect we'll see some in upcoming cycles and/or sourcebooks. One thought I had was an IN book which tied in with some of the GURPS historical worldbooks, which already have much of the necessary background information. Thus, you'd have the celestial slant in the IN book, and could get the "mundane" stuff from the existing GURPS book. I don't know how well this would work in practice, but it seems a shame to do an entirely new set of historical books when there are already good ones from the same publisher for another game line. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 09:26:43 PST From: "Chris Crowe" Subject: IN> RE:history given my recent 'exploits' i don't want anyone to take this as being hostile. i think a detailed hisory is pretty irrelevant to the game. a simple outline of events is good enough for me. the game is about the Now and Here, and maybe the future of Man. spending time debating the past isn't a need since it (the past) is all dependent upon your point of view anyway and individuals will create their own pasts as they see fit. if your campaign needs to know about Cain and Abel, then make it up yourself. you want to know what angels and demons were present at historical events, decide yourself. relying on others to write a history that you may potentially not agree with anyway is a trap. i'm sure if you find yourself in a bind the rest of us on the list will help however we can, at least i will. Krowe, Malakim of Destiny, Angel of Redemption ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 98 13:09 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> History > I get the strong feeling that the >IN writers simply do not realize how deeply deviant and heretical >their picture of the nature of God is. At least, they don't care. I think most or all of the writers are aware that the IN canon is heretical. Certainly the original French version was designed that way, and I don't think that's changed. And I wouldn't say "don't care" as much as "consider it unimportant". IN isn't intended to map onto any existing human religion perfectly. Rather, it treats human religions as "shadows" of the Truth -- at least some of them, since the religions associated with the Ethereals get short shrift. I think that puts it pretty much in the heretical category by definition - -- most human religions claim to *be* Truth, not vague, distorted approximations thereof. >And besides, much of IN is already borrowed from Jewish sources. >The whole tale of Lilith is at least ostensibly Jewish in origin >(though it may be a non-Jewish fake). Not to mention a strong trend to use Hebrew names for celestials (especially angels).... >As to all the other religions -- tough. IN is clearly a game about >the body of angel/demon folklore held in common by the three >monotheistic religions. That's its premise. Anything incompatible >with that HAS to be marginalized to some degree or another, or >the game gets diluted. That's pretty much my understanding, at least. > I think the smarted course for SJG regarding >other religions in IN is to ignore them as much as possible. I don't think "ignore" is quite the right thing -- religion is an important aspect of human culture, which the War is intertwined with. It's a legitimate topic for treatment in the game, but I don't think it's vastly more important that other cultural aspects of the societies with which the celestials are interacting. In particular, I don't see the motivations of the angels to be based on getting humans to worship God, so much as to take on particular moral and ethical precepts. (This is especially implied in the Yves writeups.) In other words, human religions are just tools to the celestials, and whether they approach the truth of existance or not isn't nearly as important as whether they have the right effects on the humans who believe in them. At least, that's my take of where canon is heading. Elizabeth or SJ are more authoritative, though -- I'm just extrapolating, and describing what model I use in my own writing for IN. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 13:21:28 -0500 From: John Karakash - LUCENT ASCC Subject: IN> Re: innomine question jokismurf wrote: > > hi > we have been playing the game and we are still unclear about Dominc's > servitor attunement "Heavenly Judgement". will it attack celestials? if > so,what if they have some armor of 6 will it negate the armor or hit for > 1 pt. does the sword do corporeal or celestial damage or both? if the > guilty party is a celestial he can only die by soul hits.. correct? The sword will attack any being that has a soul that can be judged (including celestials). Armor (and dodging) will affect the damage done. The attack will affect both corporeal _and_ celestial forms and do the appropriate damage in either form. If the being switches forms, the sword will continue to attack for the appropriate damage type. Escape to another plane of existance will negate the attack (there's a certain amount of GM-moderated lag time here... so just popping up to the etheral and back again the next round won't work). The sword will pass harmlessly through any barrier to attack the judged being (this does not include armor... there has to be _room_ for the sword to materialize and swing!) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 98 13:35 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Source Book Reviews >> >metaphors, parables, and the like. There is nothing like translating >> >along, thinking you're doing well, and going "What the HELL is THIS?" >> >because you've hit another pun, which is difficult to translate without >> >the vowels. >> >> In that case, I would definitely blame Kobal. > >I personally blame Kobal for several sad little translations that came out >"The Peasant sat on the Pharoah's (nsw) Face" instead of "The Peasant >cowered before the Pharoah's might." > >Hah. And people wonder why I didn't come out of that sane. I always figured it was natural talent.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 14:00:15 -0500 From: "Kirt A. Dankmyer -- aka Loki" Subject: IN> Plot Seed: The Mirror People This is the result of too much Love N Rockets, among other things... THE MIRROR PEOPLE A prominent Balseraph of Fate has dropped out off the face of the earth. If the PCs are angels, this should be someone who has bedeviled them in the past, who they'll notice is gone. If the PCs are demons, it can be a friend, a superior, a rival or just someone they've heard about over the grapevine. Some demons of Fate are looking for him, and a couple of demons who were working under him. Eventually the mortal authorities, of all people, find him. Tracing reports of the disappearence of various children, they find him in an apartment, calmly and disinterestedly munching on the entrails of one of the children in question. The other children, also dead, have been stripped clean of any flesh, except for their eyes. He doesn't resist as he is taken away to jail, staring placidly at his captors. Whether or not the PCs get involved or not (if demons, they might get assigned to spring him, if their Princes are friendly to Fate), when one of the PCs is alone, he is attacked. By himself. Or someone who *looks* like him, but with different abilities. After fending off the attack (the entitity in question is low on Corporeal Forces), the PC may or may not notice something odd -- he no longer casts a reflection. What's going on? One of the demons working under the missing Balseraph had been assigned to help corrupt a sorcerer, a man named John Derrington. Derrington was an up-and-coming young sorcerer: smart, selfish, well-informed and powerful. A little too well-informed, unfortunately -- during a brief contact with a Servitor of Destiny (which his "patron" slew to keep him away from Derrington), John found out about the Songs of Entropy (increased distrust of demons, in the form of believing they're holding out on him, was the first step toward his Destiny), and has been bothering his "parton" demon to give him the keys to immortality. The demon denies that such a thing exists, at least, without a price -- but he's not a Balseraph like his boss, and Derrington doesn't believe him. Derrington, as mentioned before, is a little too well-informed, and like many sorcerers, impatient as well. What his "patron" didn't know is that Derrington had acquired a sorcerous grimoire with an ancient, lost working - -- the Curse of Mirrors -- and despite the Hermetic encoding and some outright mistakes in the text, Derrington had figured out how to make it work. Unfortunately for the celestials in the area, it was designed to work on humans, but Derrington managed to get it to work on celestials anyway. This means that every Celestial in a several mile radius -- including the PCs -- have been inflicted with the Curse of Mirrors. Unfortunately for Derrington, the working stole a good portion of his life force and killed him, simultaneously releasing a Mirror Person with his face. Who are the Mirror People, and how does the Curse work? The Mirror People are a group of nightmare-generated Ethereals: cold, unfeeling monsters with a variety of supernatural powers. Each has their own nightmarish quirk -- the thing captured by the police is a Mirror Person, and many of them have habits which, while just as horrible, are more subtle than killing children and eating them. They are created with one Force less than the person they look like, but with their character points and Forces distributed however the GM likes: they are fond of Ethereal Songs and due to a long-time association with Sorcerers and an strong alliance with Beleth, many of them have the Sorcerer attunement and the appropriate skills! If the Celestial they're copying has multiple Vessels, so will the Mirror Person, all looking identical to the Vessels of the "original", though the vessels might be bought at a lower or higher level. This makes them more dangerous than a mere relfection of the person in question, because there is no way of telling what they can do. In addition to their other powers, they can step into any mirror and then step out of any other mirror they have seen. The Curse works like this: When no one is looking, a Mirror Person will step out of a mirror the victim had looked into at one time or another. Naturally, the Mirror Person will look like the victim. Until the Mirror Person is killed or goes away, the victim will cast no reflection. The first thing the Mirror Person will try to do is kill the person they look like -- they'll retreat if badly damaged, but they'll keep trying, biding their time and using their ability to travel through mirrors to set up an unexpected ambush. Once that person is dead, they'll settle in for a long period of time on the Corporeal Plane, terrifying mortals and enjoying themselves in their own cold and alien ways. Already there are five Mirror People out there: Three for the Balseraph and the two demons working under him (including John's "patron"), one for John, and one for the PC who was attacked. More will be forming, and stalking the Celestials they are a reflection of. Since the Curse has never been directed at a Celestial before, these Mirror People are the nobles of their kind, more powerful than those normally released on Earth -- they haven't been to Earth in centuries. This is their biggest weakness -- they don't understand the modern Earth, and especially modern technology, very well. Some of them don't even speak any modern languages... Once there are enough Mirror People around, they will begin to hold court, a twisted reflection of a monarchy, conducted in an incomprehensible dream-language. Others of their kind will start to arrive -- the Mirror People of the Dead, reflections of people who have died recently, who do not need the Curse to enter the corporeal plane, once enough Mirror People are gathered. It is unusual for so many Mirror People to be released at once, and they intend to take advantage of it. If they have their way, they will transform the local area into a living nightmare. Fate knows their agents were killed -- they snapped back to their Hearts, after all -- but they're still in Trauma except for the Balseraph, and they want to figure out what's going on before letting anyone know what happened. This is especially true since the Balseraph remembers being attacked by himself, one of his subordinates and John, though the subordinate in question had snapped back to his heart a couple of hours earlier. Beleth knows what's going on, and it pleases her -- she's not going to tell anyone anything. This odd behavior from a Balseraph of Fate has, of course, interested the Game... On the Heavenly side, it hasn't gone unnoticed that this has happened right after a Servitor of Destiny died. Blandine has some inkling of what's going on, and likely will send down Servitors to work with the angels of Destiny to figure out what's going on. Michael and Janus, seeing this as an opportunity to capitalize on chaos on the demonic side of things (the Mirror People for the local demons will, generally speaking, come out first, since John meant to direct the Curse at a demon), will be sending in servitors as well. Regardless, any demons or angels that arrive on the scene, rather than being locals, will NOT be affected by the Curse -- something that should confuse the PCs even more. Aside from killing all the Mirror People (difficult, since some of them are very good at hiding), there are two other ways to get rid of them: Smash the mirror John used to cast the Curse (it's still in his apartment, guarded by his Mirror Person doppleganger), or convince them to go away. The latter is easier than it seems -- the Mirror People rely on their ability to terrify, and are, in reality, cowards. A sufficient show of force followed by a threat, perhaps backed up (probably falsely) with Beleth's name, should see them beating a hasty retreat into nearby mirrors and not returning. They can also be convinced to go away if given a large number of mortals to drag back to the Mirrorlands with him -- really only an option if the PCs are demons. - -- Kirt "Loki" Dankmyer PGP key avail. My opinions are my own. love * Eris * RPGs * Anime * Magick * Carroll * techno * hats * cats * Dada I waked, she fled, and day brought back my night. --Milton ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 14:02:12 -0400 (EDT) From: gibsonc@NKU.EDU Subject: IN> LAST TIME I SWEAR: off topic again!! Thtanx for the last reply. I now have the aliens book in route to me. I have one more request, if anyone has or know where a any of the space atlases are or an alien bestiary please respond. sorry to the archangels i may have disrespected by these off topic q's. javan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 14:24:59 -0500 (EST) From: Pee Kitty Subject: Re: IN> Re: A favour On Tue, 31 Mar 1998, Ad. wrote: > > I (and everyone else who got the book and has commented on it so far, it > > seems) agree with this 100%. The NC was an interesting idea, presented > > first in the main book and perfect for a LR adventure...it had a lot of > > potential, but was CRIPPLED by the tiny amount of space it got! The > > collector was a lame idea, poorly conceived, and it got a dozen pages that > > would've been better put to use for more artifacts and more Nybbas > > Computer info. > > Could I point out that this comment could potentially cripple the use of > that scenario for any GM like myself who has a player on this list. > It might be an idea if people didn't mention anything specific about any > published scenarios, I agree completely. That's why I don't see what's wrong here. I didn't mention ANYTHING specific about ANY of the adventures in there; I just mentioned the titles, and that's it. Not the plot, not the characters, not the scenes or scenarios, nothing...just the titles. If your players can divine what's going on in an entire adventue just from the title, you've got bigger problems that this...you've got a bunch of durned psis in your house. :) Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! And finally, a special message to \|/ ____ \|/ anyone who thinks I give a damn... ~@-/ oO \-@~ /_( \__/ )_\ \__U_/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 13:35:21 -0600 From: tom timberlake Subject: IN> A Note and A Question Just a quick note to the list..... I am changing the setting on my email, so my mail, though still coming from your [virtually] local at-large Cherub of Heaven, it will bear the name of Uncle Wolf as the sender. [aside to Peter Frederick et al.: you may want to make note of this, if it will affect your mailings to me for the Eternal Dawn game]. ...and a question: Back on 20 Feb., I bought, with my c-card, a Cherub pin, bronze, but haven't seen it yet. Has there been a hold-up, or am I just being a bit too impatient? Sorry about sending this to the list, but I wasn't sure who to send this to at SJG--I didn't see a connection for questions about customer orders over on the IN jewelry portion of SJG's website. tom timberlake ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 15:18:55 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> A Note and A Question At 1:35 PM -0600 3/31/98, tom timberlake wrote: >...and a question: > Back on 20 Feb., I bought, with my c-card, a Cherub pin, bronze, but >haven't seen it yet. Has there been a hold-up, or am I just being a bit >too impatient? Sorry about sending this to the list, but I wasn't sure >who to send this to at SJG--I didn't see a connection for questions >about customer orders over on the IN jewelry portion of SJG's website. I'd try the general e-mail address: sjgames@io.com, myself. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 15:25:16 EST From: MarkDEddy Subject: Re: IN> History (was Source Book Reviews) In a message dated 3/30/98 5:56:39 PM, hailes@senet.com.au writes: <> I hate to tell you this, but IRL *Christianity*, one branch of theology says that God is indeed racist, and that the only reason non-Jews can be saved is because Jesus adopts us into the Jewish family. (cf. Seventh Day Adventist or 'Messianic Judaism'.) ObIN: I may have said this before, but I think that Michael and David are the co-sponsors of Judaism. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 15:53:17 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> History (was Source Book Reviews) MarkDEddy wrote: > I hate to tell you this, but IRL *Christianity*, one branch of > theology says that God is indeed racist, and that the only reason > non-Jews can be saved is because Jesus adopts us into the Jewish > family. This is actually mainstream Christian theology. If I recall correctly, it's in Paul's letter to the Romans. > ObIN: I may have said this before, but I think that Michael and > David are the co-sponsors of Judaism. Makes sense. Michael is explicitly called the "prince" of Israel in the book of Daniel, in a speech by Gabriel. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 16:45:34 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> History (was Source Book Reviews) >>>Is there a problem here? Is it assumed that many of us that aren't Jewish will get upset if IN assumes that the Jews *are* God's chosen people? Ick! I sure hope not.<<< But what if IN assumes they *aren't*....? - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 17:04:40 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> History (was Source Book Reviews) > >>>Is there a problem here? Is it assumed that many of us that aren't > Jewish will get upset if IN assumes that the Jews *are* God's chosen > people? Ick! I sure hope not.<<< > > > But what if IN assumes they *aren't*....? Then they'll all utter God's Name in a set of goofy mindless rhymes and roll around in a big vat of pork fat, giggling. (I'm a little stoned on drugs right now...) - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 17:40:12 -0500 From: neel@cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Subject: Re: IN> History >From: "Hart, Joanna" > >- ---Andrew Frades wrote: >> There are however some serious problems from >> a canon IN point of view with Judiasm and specifically with a patron AA. >> >> Judaism does not believe in Hell and Lucifer is not the Adversary and is >> more like (sorry) the Devils's Advocate. His purpose is the temptation >> of the world to prove out who is worthy of Heaven. To the Jews this is >> all part of God's plan. > >Yep, but of course in IN they don't have to be right about that ;) Satan would make a great replacement for Dominic. "You know God's court? Well, I'm His DA." >The reason I think it doesn't work is that as soon as you designate an AA as >patron of Jews/ Judaism, you get the inevitable question 'So what was that >AA doing during the holocaust/ spanish inquisition etc etc?' Well, everyone seems agreed that the Jews will get it really bad before the Messiah comes.[*] So perhaps Michael just grits his teeth and accepts the suffering as a necessary prerequisite before God to come down and smite them once and for all. [*] I think Christians and Jews should agree to table the question of Christ's divinity until God's kingdom is reestablished on Earth. I also think God should answer any questions about prior incarnations with an "I do not recall." (Not original to me, but I forget the source.) >(I'm also not sure it was a great idea to designate AAs as patrons of >religions. It does also beg the question of whether any DPs decided to >inspire religions also -- maybe that is just to close to the bone), Kobal and Scientology? :) >Canonically, if you want to keep the chosen people thing, you could say that >God really did speak personally through the burning bush (which would make >it the only religion that was originated by God, rather than Gabriel/ Yves) >and after God absconded, with no notes on what His intentions were, Michael >took a personal interest (because he is so ultra-loyal) and Yves thought >about it, and then decided to experiment with some copy-angel religious >inpsiration. I've actually read several (probably apocryphal) accounts that name Michael as "the angel of the burning bush," appointed by God to talk with Moses. Since Michael couldn't lie about something like that, it preserves the whole special covenant thing, while allowing us to admit the possibility of miscommunication since neither Michael nor Moses could communicate perfectly like God. (Hence oversights like forgetting to mention that there's an entire army of fallen evil angels out to corrupt mankind.) >Michael may well think that Yves got jealous and set things up personally so >that the religions he inspired deliberately became anti-semitic (although >it has been pointed out previously that Jews lived quite happily alongside >Muslims in Arab lands for a long time). But I think thats just >Jewish-seraphic paranoia ;-) That's so brilliant, it must be true. :) You have just written a piece of my game's canon. > >(nb. I may try to write up some of the myth-stuff but its tricky because >some of it requires a lot of background to put it into context and althoguh >I'm familiar with the stories, I'm not sure that I am expert enough to get >it all absolutely right -- enough for other people to use). This is in fact why I chose to use a rather Christian cosmology for my game; I grew up in South Carolina, which is part of the Bible Belt, so I know the culture of fervent fundamentalist Christianity better than the others. Although I think that it would probably be easier to make IN conform doctrinally with Islam rather than Christianity or Judaism. (That is, it would take a smaller amount of hacking to make IN doctrinally correct for Islam than for Christianity or Judaism. Though I could be wrong; I haven't read too much Islamic theology.) - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 17:53:50 -0500 From: Jesse Subject: Re: IN> A Note and A Question >...and a question: > Back on 20 Feb., I bought, with my c-card, a Cherub pin, bronze, but >haven't seen it yet. Has there been a hold-up, or am I just being a bit >too impatient? Sorry about sending this to the list, but I wasn't sure >who to send this to at SJG--I didn't see a connection for questions >about customer orders over on the IN jewelry portion of SJG's website. Hopefully SJG ships these out quicker than they shipped out the In Nomine main book. - -Jee ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 18:03:49 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> History >>>The reason I think it doesn't work is that as soon as you designate an AA as patron of Jews/ Judaism, you get the inevitable question 'So what was that AA doing during the holocaust/ spanish inquisition etc etc?'<<< Well, you could ask what were Laurence and Dominic doing when the Church was selling indulgences and turning the Vatican into a brothel? (Actually, that's partly been answered in Night Music -- Laurence wound up accidentally spurring the creation of Protestantism in his attempts to reform the Church.) The point is, just because an Archangel is the patron of a particular group of people doesn't mean he's going to be able to protect them from all harm. (Or you could take an even more sinister viewpoint -- imagine David as the patron of the Jews. It kind of makes sense; *let* them suffer inoordinately over dozens of centuries, until the survivors have become one of the hardiest and most enduring peoples on Earth.) >>>(I'm also not sure it was a great idea to designate AAs as patrons of religions. It does also beg the question of whether any DPs decided to inspire religions also -- maybe that is just to close to the bone),<<< Someone suggested Mammon as the patron of Scientology. ;) But you're right, listing a Demon Prince as the patron of a religion -- unless it's a long-dead and probably fictitious one -- is probably not something you'll ever see in canon. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 18:03:52 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> History >>>I get the strong feeling that the IN writers simply do not realize how deeply deviant and heretical their picture of the nature of God is. At least, they don't care.<<< One thing you should keep in mind is In Nomine's CROC origins. The French version of In Nomine is _far_ more satirical and utterly heretical than SJG's version. The people who get upset because of how a particular Archangel was designated in In Nomine would be apoplectic at some of what the French writers did in their version, if they took it nearly as seriously. SJG took the game much more seriously than the source does, but it's intended to be able to go either way, into Deep Theological Thoughts or tongue-in-cheek religious satire. That said, I too would like to see some more "serious" theology and history explored in In Nomine, but it's not likely to happen. Not only is it touchy, but there's no satisfying anyone, and when you get into Deep Thoughts, anything you write is establishing canon for the universe that will contradict numerous other GMs' Deep Thoughts. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 18:38:02 -0500 From: Jesse Subject: IN> Fluff break >>>>The reason I think it doesn't work is that as soon as you designate an >AA as patron of Jews/ Judaism, you get the inevitable question 'So what was >that AA doing during the holocaust/ spanish inquisition etc etc?'<<< It is pretty obivous why the angels didn't do anything about the Spanish Inquisition, they didn't expect it. - -Jesse Now back to your regualarly scheduled email ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 19:20:47 -0500 From: "Mark McKenzie" Subject: Re: IN> Fluff break Well, *no one* expects ... oh, never mind. - -- Mark McKenzie E-mail: markadv@kinekom.com ICQ 7946364 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 19:38:25 -0600 (CST) From: Bryan Subject: Re: IN> History On Tue, 31 Mar 1998, David Edelstein wrote: > imagine David as the patron of the Jews. It kind of makes > sense; *let* them suffer inoordinately over dozens of centuries, until the > survivors have become one of the hardiest and most enduring peoples on > Earth. Actually, I can see that happening... Bryan Malakim of War Death is a low chemical trick played on everbody except sequoia trees. J.J. Furnas ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 23:05:10 -0500 From: "Thomas Davidson" Subject: Re: IN> History (was Source Book Reviews) - ---------- > From: Emily Dresner > To: INTERNET:in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > Subject: Re: IN> History (was Source Book Reviews) > Date: Tuesday, March 31, 1998 5:04 PM > > > > >>>Is there a problem here? Is it assumed that many of us that aren't > > Jewish will get upset if IN assumes that the Jews *are* God's chosen > > people? Ick! I sure hope not.<<< > > > > > > But what if IN assumes they *aren't*....? > > Then they'll all utter God's Name in a set of goofy mindless rhymes and > roll around in a big vat of pork fat, giggling. > Stop it, Em. You're scaring me. :) > (I'm a little stoned on drugs right now...) > > - Em ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #703 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.