From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Apr 9 12:10:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA20154 for ; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 12:10:47 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id LAA01546 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 11:40:31 -0500 Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 11:40:31 -0500 Message-Id: <199804091640.LAA01546@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #711 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, April 9 1998 Volume 01 : Number 711 In this digest: Re: IN> [TRAILER] ... and the Sword of Vengeance IN> Some Thoughts on Free Will IN> Noticing disturbances Re: IN> Some Thoughts on Free Will Re: IN> Some Thoughts on Free Will Re: IN> Noticing disturbances Re: IN> Noticing disturbances Re: IN> Looking for a volunteer! IN> Symphonic History Re: IN> Looking for a volunteer! IN> IPG -- It's Good to be Evil! Re: IN> Symphonic History Re: IN> Symphonic History Re: IN> Symphonic History Re: IN> Looking for a volunteer! IN> Re: IN- Looking for a volunteer! IN> We Can Do It For You! Re: IN> Looking for a volunteer! Re: IN> Some Thoughts on Free Will Re: IN> Some Thoughts on Free Will Re: IN> Noticing disturbances Re: IN> Some Thoughts on Free Will Re: IN> Some Thoughts on Free Will Re: IN> Some Thoughts on Free Will Re: IN> Noticing disturbances Re: IN> We Can Do It For You! IN> Hells Bells at St Trinians (A cautionary Xmas tale) Re: IN> Some Thoughts on Free Will ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 13:34:26 -0500 (CDT) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> [TRAILER] ... and the Sword of Vengeance >Excellent ;-) > >Gotta see the reaction when he meets Dominique's luscious serpentine form >though! > "... snakes... why'd she have to be a snake?" ......*whump* Kris Overstreet, web pages beyond belief http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck - Redneck Gaijin Online http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ - White Lightning Productions http://www.antarctic-press.com/ - Antarctic Press Web Site http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/acupunct/ - Anatomical Acupuncture http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/dvpbem/ - In Nomine: Dark Victory PBEM http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/milkmaid/ - The Magnificent Milkmaid ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 15:40:04 -0400 (EDT) From: "R. Sean Borgstrom" Subject: IN> Some Thoughts on Free Will Many In Nomine powers amount to, well, mind control. This can be fun, sometimes, but it also disempowers players a fair bit -- as do the rather mechanical Falling rules and some of the Discords. Some ideas for how to fix this are available at http://www.cs.jhu.edu/~rsean/gaming/will.html I make no representations that this is the best of all possible fixes; it's just some thoughts thrown together. :) - -- Hitherby ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 22:20:51 +0200 (DFT) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: IN> Noticing disturbances I hope this hasn't been beaten to death - I tried searching the archives, but I got too many hits... :( Has anyone tried making up some simpler rules for detecting disturbances in the Symphony? The ones in the rulebook are, well, a tad bit too complicated to use during play, IMO. I tried making up some kind of table, so that the players could just roll with a modified Perception, but it was still rather clunky. :( Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! "I kick arse for the Lord!" - Father McGruder ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 22:51:53 +0100 (BST) From: Warsinger Subject: Re: IN> Some Thoughts on Free Will On Wed, 8 Apr 1998, R. Sean Borgstrom wrote: > Many In Nomine powers amount to, well, mind control. This can be fun, > sometimes, but it also disempowers players a fair bit -- as do the > rather mechanical Falling rules and some of the Discords. Some ideas > for how to fix this are available at I found they went too far the other way IIRC - things like the Secduction skill not being rolled for on players - it was just to be role-played. That's for the skills and some of the powers. Falling - way too easy IMHO. I kind of assumed it was meant to be RP'd through - but the mechanics don't seem quite right. So I'll have a look at the fix once I can get access to a Netscape version that isn't censured :( Discords - mucked you up yes - but they are flaws being imposed on you because of your actions - seemed fair enough to me. > I make no representations that this is the best of all possible fixes; > it's just some thoughts thrown together. :) :) Warsinger Cute and fluffy....(with claws) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 23:09:15 +0100 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: IN> Some Thoughts on Free Will At 22:51 08/04/98 +0100, you wrote: >On Wed, 8 Apr 1998, R. Sean Borgstrom wrote: > >> Many In Nomine powers amount to, well, mind control. This can be fun, >> sometimes, but it also disempowers players a fair bit -- as do the >> rather mechanical Falling rules and some of the Discords. Some ideas >> for how to fix this are available at > >I found they went too far the other way IIRC - things like the Secduction >skill not being rolled for on players - it was just to be role-played. >That's for the skills and some of the powers. One alteration I had wondered about (because it worked nicely in Vampire) is whenever someone makes a will roll (ie. to resist a demonic power) allow them to spend essence to get a bonus of +2 per point of essence spent (or +3 or whatever works :) ) to that specific roll. jo - ---------- "I like getting into hot water, it keeps me clean." G. K. Chesterton jhart@btinternet.com -- http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~jhart/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 18:31:50 EDT From: JFZeigler Subject: Re: IN> Noticing disturbances In a message dated 98-04-08 16:46:13 EDT, you write: << Has anyone tried making up some simpler rules for detecting disturbances in the Symphony? The ones in the rulebook are, well, a tad bit too complicated to use during play, IMO. I tried making up some kind of table, so that the players could just roll with a modified Perception, but it was still rather clunky. :( >> Hmmmm. I'd noticed this too. The system in the basic rules certainly comes under the heading of what wargame designers at SPI used to call "a cacophony of calculations." This was defined as "more than one algebraic equation to be solved within a sixty- second period." Here, you need to add a column of figures (one) then multiply the result by a different figure (two). Then you divide a third figure by this product (three) and add the quotient to a fourth figure (four) before rolling the dice. Ouch. I've usually gotten around the problem by just making a judgement call on the fly, based on whatever is dramatically appropriate (you may guess that I'm not big on game mechanics when I GM). But I suppose one could work up a quick "cheat sheet." Maybe I'll do this sometime when I have the time (yeah, right). I'll post the results if I do. - ---------- Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, freelance writer, amateur historian, science fiction fan, occasional scribbler of bad poetry JFZeigler@aol.com "Never speak for others. You can get in enough trouble speaking for yourself." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 00:57:05 +0200 (DFT) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Noticing disturbances On Wed, 8 Apr 1998, JFZeigler wrote: > In a message dated 98-04-08 16:46:13 EDT, you write: > > << Has anyone tried making up some simpler rules for detecting disturbances > in the Symphony? The ones in the rulebook are, well, a tad bit too > complicated to use during play, IMO. I tried making up some kind of table, > so that the players could just roll with a modified Perception, but it was > still rather clunky. :( >> > > Hmmmm. I'd noticed this too. [snip] > I've usually gotten around the problem by just making a judgement call on > the fly, based on whatever is dramatically appropriate (you may guess that > I'm not big on game mechanics when I GM). Me neither, but it would be nice to have some kind of usable approximation. > But I suppose one could work up a quick "cheat sheet." Maybe I'll do this > sometime when I have the time (yeah, right). I'll post the results if I do. The one I did was a table with degree of disturbance and distance along the edges. It was calculated for three Celestial Forces, and gave a modifier to the Perception roll. I could at least get some idea of what modifier to use - "Someone was killed a couple of hundred feet away... that should be minus X" - but I'd prefer a simpler way of calculating it. Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! "I kick arse for the Lord!" - Father McGruder ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 18:16:38 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Looking for a volunteer! At 6:29 PM -0500 4/6/98, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >http://www.sjgames.com/misc/volunteers.html >has the information... It seems that we need someone to keep the >www.sjgames.com/in-nomine page up to date... And our volunteer is... Em, Balseraph of the Game, in service to Nitpicking on Tuesdays! - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 04:56:44 -0800 From: Armand Subject: IN> Symphonic History This whole talk about Celestial history has gotten me to thinking. There's this whole general desire for there to be a history, and none seems forthcoming. So, I thought that I might start one of my own, and post it. I talked with my wife about some of the things that I was coming up with, and became thoroughly convinced that writing an IN history would be next to impossible. Not really impossible, but it wouldn't be good. The first problem we came to was how is Earth connected to Heaven. Do the Celestials play roles in delegating what does and does not happen, or are they content to lay in the background? If they are in the background, then what exactly are they doing there? Supposing that the Celestials have little power over the history of Earth, then the question that comes next is whether Earth controls the destiny of Heaven. I can't escape this way of thinking. Any time you take two things and put them in relation to one another, they form a relationship. Whether or not that realtionship is inert or not is irrelevant. One thing defines another. I would, were I writing this impossible history, go with the idea that Earth influences Heaven. Then, you start taking the events of history, and sorting out the effect, if any, on the celestial realm. The problem comes from being raised in Wester culture. There are things going on in the Asian continents that I know that I would ignore out of just plain ignorance. I am not very knowledgeable of Eastern history (Anything east of Germany, only recently involved into Russian history). However, I do know that simultaneous (maybe not equal, but at the same timee) events with large, global effects were happening on both side of the globes. My IN history would fail to evoke this. Which leads to my conclusion, there really could never be a strong and conclusive IN history. Sure, we could all invent scenarios based around our favorited time period (I'm doing a game based around the reign of Richard III), but the world would be neglected by our humanity. I don't mean to dissuade any who would try, but I think that it is a little too much to expect another to do it. Armand, Small Ofanim in a very large world ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 16:45:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Knop Subject: Re: IN> Looking for a volunteer! > And our volunteer is... Em, Balseraph of the Game, in service to > Nitpicking on Tuesdays! I'd noticed those pages hadn't been updated since last November. It's good to know that somebody will be on top of them. - -Rob ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 17:21:04 -0700 From: Sean McCarthy Subject: IN> IPG -- It's Good to be Evil! I just picked up the IPG last night and have not been able to fully peruse it, but I found the history from a demonic perspective to be very interesting. The various Band symbols are very nice as well and the psychology of Balseraphs explained inside is just amazing. I support I'll stop raving now and go finish reading it. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 21:07:21 EDT From: SienarFLT Subject: Re: IN> Symphonic History In a message dated 98-04-08 20:04:05 EDT, you write: > I would, were I writing this impossible history, go with the idea that > Earth influences Heaven. Very Interesting, but you never elaborate on this. What precisely did you have in mind? -- Thom Dawson (reply to SienarFLT@aol.com) "Men rarely (if ever) manage to dream up a god Superior to themselves. Most gods have the Manners and morals of a spoiled child." -- Lazarus Long. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 21:35:00 EDT From: JFZeigler Subject: Re: IN> Symphonic History In a message dated 98-04-08 20:04:05 EDT, you write: << Which leads to my conclusion, there really could never be a strong and conclusive IN history. Sure, we could all invent scenarios based around our favorited time period (I'm doing a game based around the reign of Richard III), but the world would be neglected by our humanity. I don't mean to dissuade any who would try, but I think that it is a little too much to expect another to do it. >> I agree completely. I don't think it would be reasonable (or desirable) to try to lock down all of human history and how it related to the history of the War. The best we could expect is to paint some very broad outlines. I don't think it would hurt if we tried to do that much, though. - ---------- Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, freelance writer, amateur historian, science fiction fan, occasional scribbler of bad poetry JFZeigler@aol.com "Never speak for others. You can get in enough trouble speaking for yourself." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 07:57:02 -0800 From: Armand Subject: Re: IN> Symphonic History >In a message dated 98-04-08 20:04:05 EDT, you write: > >> I would, were I writing this impossible history, go with the idea that >> Earth influences Heaven. > >Very Interesting, but you never elaborate on this. What precisely did you >have in mind? > Didn't mean to be vague. Let's take the invention of gunpowder. Humans come up with the idea, and then celestials take the idea and utilize it for their own purposes. Now, celestials can come use gunpwder effects in their daily works. novalis rejoices in beautiful flowers in the sky, Vapula sees what a short fuse does to the hand that lit it. However, this, if I were implementing the idea, would reduce the creativity of such individuals as either Jean or Vapula. Nothing can be created until humans come up with it. No guns until the 16th century, etc. This would also reflect in ideas. Just imagine the effect that 20th century democracy would have on celestials. The idea that being a member of a location, just being a member, could get you a vote in the workings of the direction of the larger body. I just get impressions of Shedim lining up in voting booths across the country voting Republican, "And they'll think it's their idea!" The only problem that I come across is how do we decide what is influential history. How did the ideas behind Taoism sit with the celestials? What about Hindu and Buddism? These are practiced by a majority of the population. How would such beliefs influence the "inspiration" for the other world religions? Does this clarify my thinking? Armand ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 23:58:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Looking for a volunteer! > > > I'd noticed those pages hadn't been updated since last November. It's > good to know that somebody will be on top of them. > > -Rob > Or under them as the case may be. Very... deep... under them. Nothing like 6 months of backlog. :) I'm still just looking for dead links. AMONG other things. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 23:13:59 PDT From: "David Streeter" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Looking for a volunteer! >Or under them as the case may be. Very... deep... under them. Nothing >like 6 months of backlog. :) > >I'm still just looking for dead links. AMONG other things. > >- Em Dead links don't annoy me that much. I'd prefer to see new content. Of course if you could limit off-site (I mean off IN site, not SJG site) links to three or four pages, your job would be easier. INsite, huh? Cute name. Good thing you thought of it. You must be proud... SurturZ Habbalite of Factions, Angel of Constructive Criticism. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 02:00:24 -0500 From: future@theway4.br Subject: IN> We Can Do It For You! LET US DO YOUR BULK E-MAIL ADVERTISING!!! $450 PER MILLION (5 MILLION OR MORE $400 PER MILLION) $350 PER 1/2 MILLION THE WAY OF THE FUTURE FOR SUCCESS IN YOUR BUSINESS! Our company will do bulk emailing for your product/service. Addresses are extracted 24 hours a day 7 days a week, scanning the net for new addresses. Estimated 100-150,000 addresses extracted daily. They are fresh! Over 40 million addresses on file. No more than 2 pages (50 lines), no porn, no sexual relative material and no foul language. $50 per additional page. We do not do targeted mailings at this price. Each ad must be no more than 50 characters wide by 50 lines deep. 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Check out our prices and compare with other bulk emailers, you will find we have the BESt prices anywhere. In fact, we do bulk mailings for many other bulk emailers. To have yourname@domain removed, call our processing department. Any negative responses will be dealt with accordingly. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 04:03:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> Looking for a volunteer! On Wed, 8 Apr 1998, Robert Knop wrote: > > And our volunteer is... Em, Balseraph of the Game, in service to > > Nitpicking on Tuesdays! > > I'd noticed those pages hadn't been updated since last November. It's > good to know that somebody will be on top of them. Em likes to be on top. ;;;) *seeks cover, expecting imminent thrown crockery* - -- Casca, Seraph of Archives (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 04:38:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> Some Thoughts on Free Will On Wed, 8 Apr 1998, Warsinger wrote: > Falling - way too easy IMHO. I kind of assumed it was meant to be RP'd > through - but the mechanics don't seem quite right. So I'll have a look > at the fix once I can get access to a Netscape version that isn't censured The way it works in my game (and be warned, I use Vapulan mechanics), ten points of Dissonance equal one point of Discord. Discord, not Dissonance, determines how close someone is to Falling. That eliminates the "fall through bad dice" maneuver. You've got to -want- to Fall. - -- Casca, Seraph of Archives (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 09:54:26 +0100 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Some Thoughts on Free Will On Thu, Apr 09, 1998 at 04:38:15AM -0400, Casca wrote: > On Wed, 8 Apr 1998, Warsinger wrote: > > > Falling - way too easy IMHO. I kind of assumed it was meant to be RP'd > > through - but the mechanics don't seem quite right. So I'll have a look > > at the fix once I can get access to a Netscape version that isn't censured > That eliminates the "fall > through bad dice" maneuver. > > You've got to -want- to Fall. > Admittedly I haven't played all the Choirs yet but so far I haven't found it a problem, because I've only incurred dissonance once. Generally, you have to take a negative action in order to get dissonance in the first place, and for some reason my characters don't take those negative actions. Personally I think that the current system makes falling too hard, since it's easy to just burn the dissonance for Discord. I don't know how I'd fix this, though. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "He was wont moreover to complain openly of the condition of the times wherein he lived, as not being renowned by any public calamities...And, at times, he wished for some terrible carnage of his armies, a famine, a pestilence, conflagrations, or an earthquake." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 08:44:44 -0400 From: Andrew Frades Subject: Re: IN> Noticing disturbances Anders Gabrielsson wrote: > Me neither, but it would be nice to have some kind of usable > approximation. > > > But I suppose one could work up a quick "cheat sheet." Maybe I'll do this > > sometime when I have the time (yeah, right). I'll post the results if I do. > > The one I did was a table with degree of disturbance and distance along > the edges. It was calculated for three Celestial Forces, and gave a > modifier to the Perception roll. I could at least get some idea of what > modifier to use - "Someone was killed a couple of hundred feet away... > that should be minus X" - but I'd prefer a simpler way of calculating it. Tables, charts, obscure mathematica calcaulaions that differ from PC to PC. The disturbance dertection rules basically bite. I would prefer a straight roll vs. perception with a modifier of the degree of disturbance. The modifier goes down a set amount per some distance (I use the degree of disturbance to the nearest five). What ends up happening is that if the PCs are close one of them always notices. Farther away is anyones guess unless it is something like a murder etc. Basically I guess and use what I feel to be about right. Andrew ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 08:45:14 EDT From: SienarFLT Subject: Re: IN> Some Thoughts on Free Will In a message dated 98-04-09 04:42:59 EDT, you write: > The way it works in my game (and be warned, I use Vapulan mechanics), ten > points of Dissonance equal one point of Discord. Discord, not Dissonance, > determines how close someone is to Falling. That eliminates the "fall > through bad dice" maneuver. > > You've got to -want- to Fall. I agree with Falling through accumulated amounts of Discord, but not necessarily the falling through bad dice. The alternative discussed seems to put control in the player's hands, at least when you say a player "wants" to fall. I think it's kind of like cheating on a test, eventually you're going to get caught, but you just don't know when. And considering that, I think the bad dice roll is a really good idea. -- Thom (reply to SienarFLT@aol.com) "Men rarely (if ever) manage to dream up a god Superior to themselves. Most gods have the Manners and morals of a spoiled child." -- Lazarus Long. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 09:02:54 EDT From: SienarFLT Subject: Re: IN> Some Thoughts on Free Will In a message dated 98-04-09 05:06:03 EDT, you write: > Admittedly I haven't played all the Choirs yet but so far I haven't found > it a problem, because I've only incurred dissonance once. Generally, you > have to take a negative action in order to get dissonance in the first > place, and for some reason my characters don't take those negative > actions. > Depends on what you mean "negative action." I think gaining dissonance due to actions contrary to their Superior's word is an easy thing to do. I have stressed to my players that just because they serve Dominic, doesn't mean they have to be as fanatical in nature as he is, that each angel is individual in personality regardless of who they serve. An action may still be noble and honorable, done with non-selfish motives and still be contrary to their word. > Personally I think that the current system makes falling too hard, since > it's easy to just burn the dissonance for Discord. I don't know how I'd > fix this, though. I agree, I think it's too hard also, but only because my players tend to be a bit cautious. I've only run a few sessions, and have not had to give any dissonance yet. When I do give it out though, enough of it to warrant trading it in for a discord, the shift to a discord has to be played out in the game, no "Well I want to trade it in for this and such discord *now* so that I don't get into trouble later." Let the player sweat it out for a little bit before his Superior shows up and voices its displeasure, and says "OK, now I'll let you have this (GM's pick) discord." Then the player can breathe a sigh of relief. If by chance the character does Fall, then so be it. Have them create a new character and now the GM has a wonderful plot device. OR if the players also have a demonic group, think of the fun they could have with one of the newly Fallen. -- Thom (reply to SienarFLT@aol.com) Impudite of Peanut Butter in service to Haagenti, or ... Mercurian of Lost Endings in service to Yves ... I just haven't made up my mind yet! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 09:04:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Some Thoughts on Free Will > I agree with Falling through accumulated amounts of Discord, but not > necessarily the falling through bad dice. The alternative discussed seems to > put control in the player's hands, at least when you say a player "wants" to > fall. I think it's kind of like cheating on a test, eventually you're going > to get caught, but you just don't know when. And considering that, I think > the bad dice roll is a really good idea. > I waffle on it. My players are duly afraid of dissonance, so they avoid it like the plague, especially when I started threatening them with mange and Impuditehood. (Nothing like Andre's tongue down a PC's throat to make them start acting Mercurianlike again.) I prefer to have the players Play Out Falling, but if they have 3 pts of dissonace, and do it again, and they get an ugly roll, then they were probably due anyway. I don't think one point of dissonance should do it, and in the rules, it doesn't. Everyone screws up sometimes, and sometimes things just happen. But I keep in mind that there's all sorts of 'atonement options' available to the Servitor who wants to get rid of that point of dissonance. Accidents happen, but they can be fixed. The player, or the angel, who goes along, continuing to pick up dissonance, and doesn't care probably was on the fast track to Hell in the first place. Rolling it doesn't bother me too much, although I dislike dice. It's when you get dissonance for failed die rolls or poor check digits that bother me. It's one thing to play through a point of dissonance (a cherub lets her attuned get harmed or killed, a mercurian hurts a human, a seraph tells lies) and it's entirely another when you get it just because the dice hate you that day. I'd rather get rid of that part of the system. - - Em Current Quote: "I refuse to believe in God until I have a geas on Him. And then I'll think about it." - Daimon ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 09:05:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Noticing disturbances > Tables, charts, obscure mathematica calcaulaions that differ from PC to > PC. The disturbance dertection rules basically bite. I would prefer a > straight roll vs. perception with a modifier of the degree of > disturbance. The modifier goes down a set amount per some distance (I > use the degree of disturbance to the nearest five). That sounds generally like what I do. I have them roll perception, and then I wave my hands around and make something up dependant on the check digit. I don't like having to memorize tables or calculations. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 11:30:14 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> We Can Do It For You! First off, my apologies for not handling this by private e-mail. I would have, but I wasn't sure who to contact. Today I recieved from the mailing list a four page advertisement for e-mail advertising, from an e-mail acount with the address , adking me to make purchases. I don't know what this person or organization was doing on the mailing list, but I would like to request that they be removed. I am on this list to discuss In Nomine, not to recieve junk e-mail. If the list monitor (whoever you are) would like to see the e-mail, please contact me privately. I don't want to waste any more bandwidth on this subject. My apologies for boring everyone else with this, Rich Gant ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 16:30:27 +0100 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: IN> Hells Bells at St Trinians (A cautionary Xmas tale) (The devil made me do it) jo - -- Summary: 2 of Laurence's servants have been given a mission that they have been told is hugely important, which involves protecting Laura, an unassuming mortal child, who doesn't even seem to have much of a fate/ destiny about her. Local demons are getting edgy at the extra activity and orders from On Low are to anticipate enemy action. Suddenly a small girls boarding school has become a battleground in what threatens to turn into a fullscale war! Locally based PCs are co-opted/ recruited by one side or another. But none of the celestials have taken into account .. the belles of St Trinians! Sequence of Events: PCs get invited by a local seneschal to meet one of the school-based celestials who recruits them. They are somehow worked into the school routine, either being given schoolgirl vessels or being taken on as staff (poor things). Fights break out in the junior girls' dorm over the auditions for the school carol concert, which everyone seems to want to be in. Explosive fights with the use of stink bombs, napalm, and Molotov cocktails (the school science teacher is strangely cheered at how quick the girls are at practical applications of chemistry! Maybe some of them will pass their exams after all). School inspectors visit is announced for a couple of weeks time. Notice given that school may be closed if report is not up to scratch. One of the girl's fathers turns up in a dorm (and is caught by the other girls, without informing the teachers). He is apparently part of an international jewel-theft ring but is also a soldier of theft who is carrying a coded message to the local balseraph (see below) that implies demons are planning to assault the school on or around the Xmas holidays. (If it gets the message the Balseraph works out quickly that its plush little gravy train will be over with if this happens). Laura and a friend go missing. They have sneaked out of school to hitch-hike to the nearest big city for a Xmas shopping spree. Laurence's cherub has been distracted by trying to honorably persuade the fourth form mafia not to torture the school cat and only realises after they have gone that the girl may be in some danger. If they cannot catch up with them, the girls will get caught shop-lifting and dragged down to the local police station where they will get beaten up in overcrowded holding cells by a drugged-up female pimp. (If they get out of this, the girls will probably be the envy of the fourth form!) Sixth formers get very excited at finding out that a group from the territorial army have rented some local fields and will be camping out and going on maneouvers. (Available men!) Some of them sneak out to party down town and drink themselves silly with the soldiers. Any celestial who investigates may be able to find out that some of these guys are soldiers of hell and their commanding officer is a demon of war. Oops. The school inspectors arrive. The school is inspected. The inspector's aims are to gather enough evidence to close the place down permanently, to frame the balseraph and to scout out any local angelic activity to aid the forthcoming assault. Another local shedite of the game is under orders to watch them. It is paranoid and jumps around but is only interested in framing its fellow game-demons. It may inadvertently aid the PCs. School carol concert. All the parents are due to arrive later in the day, some of them are very influential people, in the financial world, the political world and the diplomatic world. Unfortunately it is whilst all the teachers are out on their annual pre-carol concert christmas booze up that the demons are going to strike. Any cherubs will feel the oncoming conflict. Anyone who has been mixing it with the soldiers may know the date and some of the plans. In fact there is one other source of information: one of the fourth form dashes into the school screaming her head off -- she had been out sneaking around the army camp to try and get blackmail photos of some of the sixth form girls and had heard the War demon discuss its assault plans. In fact she has them all on tape. The angels (or demons) have 2 hours to get their 'troops' into fighting shape! The girls are awfully keen to help defend their school from demonic assault and seem to be an aggressive bunch. The balseraph is too cowardly to fight but can be bullied into 'helping' in that way that demons of theft can! Cue cinematic battle - girls armed with hockey sticks and the best that the school chemistry labs can provide, against demons with assault rifles. If any of the school is left standing at the end, you may be doing something wrong. Then of course, the school must be tidied up in time for the parents to arrive and not notice anything wrong - otherwise they might want to take their daughters away from such a /dangerous/ school and none of the girls want that! Notes: 1. Although its a posh girls school, the pupils are basically a bunch of delinquents. The juniors (age 12-15) are enthusiastic hooligans and the seniors (age 16-18) are pouty degenerates. Naturally none of the parents and most of the teachers are unaware of this, or else choose to fondly admire the girls for their initiative. 2. Laurence's angels arrived at the school a couple of months ago, with orders to protect Laura. One is a Cherub who has taken the vessel of a pudgy 13 year old schoolgirl in Laura's class and the other is a Mercurian who picked a good looking male vessel and a role as a fencing teacher. Suddenly fencing has become an extremely popular extra-curricular activity (although some of the girls have complained that the weapons aren't dangerous enough). 3. There was originally one demon on-site -- a Balseraph of Valefor whose role is as the school caretaker/ janitor. He was originally there to encourage the girls into gambling, petty theft and shoplifting (like they needed the encouragement!). He panicked at the unexpected angelic activity and has been told that reinforcements are arriving. The reinforcement has already arrived -- its one of Kobal's shedites which is having fun, but also fully intends to frame the Bal for something. How hard can that be? 4. The school inspectors are an Asmodean pair comprising an obsessive Djinn which has memorised the entire Department of Education regulations concerning private schools and all of the health and safety regulations as well -- it wouldn't take that much to find something notionally dangerous in a) The Science lab b) The school kitchens c) Either the junior dorms (explosive substances) or the senior dorms (drugs and an illicit still) Unless of course the angels manage to clear those all up first. The other inspector-demon is an Impudite with a cute male vessel which will begin by charming and seducing the head-mistress (*wince*) and then with her unwitting help, fabricating as much evidence as it needs. It will also suck essence from the teaching staff, who seem generally less strong-willed than the pupils. The change in the head-mistresses behaviour (from strict authoritarianism to doe-eyed mushiness) will be very very obvious. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 12:26:15 -0400 (EDT) From: "York H. Dobyns" Subject: Re: IN> Some Thoughts on Free Will Kevin Walsh writes: [...] >On Thu, Apr 09, 1998 at 04:38:15AM -0400, Casca wrote: >> On Wed, 8 Apr 1998, Warsinger wrote: >> >> > Falling - way too easy IMHO. I kind of assumed it was meant to be RP'd >> > through - but the mechanics don't seem quite right. So I'll have a look >> > at the fix once I can get access to a Netscape version that isn't censured [...] >Personally I think that the current system makes falling too hard, since >it's easy to just burn the dissonance for Discord. I don't know how I'd >fix this, though. If we have people who think Falling is too easy, and people who think it's too hard, offhand I'd say the system designers are doing something right :-). I suspect that what worries some people (e.g. the "bad dice" comment) is that even one point of Dissonance can lead to Outcasting on an Infernal Intervention; 1 chance in 216, minimum, every time you incur Dissonance. One time in 46656, an angel can Fall from incurring a whole 2 points of Dissonance. I'm inclined to view this as a feature rather than a bug. *Two* Infernal Interventions on consecutive Dissonance rolls? Seems like Lucifer has taken a personal interest in that individual's Fall. And how many angels can expect to hold out against *that* kind of power? What I find more of an issue is the assertion, made in the basic rules and emphasized in the APG, that Falling is fundamentally a moral choice. The rules, to put it mildly, fail to convey this. For a majority of Choirs, granted, Dissonance strictures are ethical. A Seraph must not lie; Elohim must not allow their personal desires to overrule their impartial judgement; Kyriotates must not harm their hosts; Mercurians must not resort to violence; Malakim must honor their oaths. But a Cherub can become dissonant by trying to do too much, or by plain bad luck. Ofanim can suffer dissonance just by being *incompetent*, or by doing their best and still failing a roll. (IIRC, even if something has been boosted into the auto-success range, it still is subject to Intervention, right?) Matters get worse with some of the Superiors, who impose Dissonance strictures that have nothing visible to do with morality. A Servitor of Janus can Fall just from staying in one place too long? A Servitor of Laurence gets Dissonance for disobeying the spirit *or* the letter of an order, no matter how boneheaded it may be in the light of later or local developments? (Maybe Laurence never makes mistakes. Right. I seem to recall some serious theological issues about any created being making *that* claim.) ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #711 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.